A folk singer for now or for ever

Subject: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: GUEST,Folky
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:48 AM

I was reading on another thread, from last year, how Barbara Dickson, amongst others, used to be a regular guest at folk clubs many years ago. Going back a few years now, there was a thread about Barbara on the BBC folk board, which turned into one of the most argumentative, aggressive and extraordinary threads I had ever seen, with a few people doing all in their power to seemingly get it closed down, as it seemed they had a deep problem with Barbara even being mentioned in the same sentence as the word folk.

If you start out a folk singer, then change to another genre of music, although to me all music is music, do you then lose your right to be called a folk singer forever?


Barbara Dickson

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: GUEST,Folky
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:53 AM

Where you hear her singing some folk songs and very well she does it.

Barbara's myspace

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Morris-ey
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:13 AM

I have her "Parcel of Rogues" and it is excellent.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:37 AM

Barbara could do what she liked, just like you and I can.

As I remember she really made her non-folky name through appearing on the stage in a Willy Russell play (Blood Brothers or John Paul George Ringo and Bert I forget which). She then had a hit with "Another Suitcase, Another Hall".

She had a choice as I see it between making a living doing music and struggling to make a living as a folk singer as most do, supplmenting her festival and club income with a variety of other work - all of which has to be researched, practised and rehearsed.

She was a professional singer, end of story.

It happens all the time, I believe another well-known folk singer is currently rehearsing for a stage appearance. Whatever happens and comes of this, good like to him.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:11 AM

That should have read good luck.

And is that you lizzie?

Stop looking at my space - you'll go blind.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:18 AM

its that thing about being civil again isn't it?

Some of the people who think they know exactly what folksong and folkmusic is, are so lacking in understanding as to what constitutes a living artform that they are very hard to respect.

The stupider and narrower the view of a person - the harder they will find it to respect things outside of their vision.

It is hard to respect someone who sneers at what you have done with your life. I suspect we all need an extra neutral gear of civility, when we encounter these people at festivals, clubs, and on mudcat.

Willy Russell is a very folk based songwriter _ I knew a guy who was in the orchestra in Blood Brothers - the original production. Apparently some of the band felt a bit peeved that their orchestration from the noises produced by some bearded git with his finger in his ear, did not constitute a writing credit. Still I suppose Roberta Flack's group could perhaps say that about MacColl.

It is entirely understandable that the interpretative skills that Barbara Dickson learned from performing folk ballads should be seized on as a great showstopping power to harness by someone like Russell. And its a two way exchange - would we have had those extraordinary performances in folk clubs by Ewan - if he had not done years in theatre. Theatre and folksong have been inextricably linked from the start of the revival. The Clancy Bros had done acting and knew about stagecraft.

folksong is not in some sort of sealed capsule - it must have contact with the outside world. I suspect some of it may have to do with with old fashioned English class predjudice. Theatrical types generally talkling posh, and having exotic sexual lifestyles.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: nutty
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:39 AM

Barbara Dickson honed her musical talent in Scottish folk clubs along with Archie Fisher and Rab Noakes. She was a talented pianist as well as guitarist and singer and loved performing.

Many folkies of the 70's and early 80's went on to bigger things...

Billy Connelly
Jasper Carrot
Tony Capstick
Bernard Wrigley
John Tams
Isla St Clair

to name but a few.

Jealousy may colour some peoples views of their success but once a folkie always a folkie. This music is always in the blood.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:49 AM

Hello

"once a folkie always a folkie"

Hear, Hear! If you leave your bike at home and take the car, you may be called a driver, but you learned your road skills from riding that bike!

Best wishes,

Peter

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:49 AM

Another one who seemed to struggle to get accepted on the folk scene was Isla St.Clair. A good singer with an excellent fund of material.

I agree, once you have folk song or music in your soul you can never entirely lose it.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: skipy
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:59 AM

Folk music is not just for Christmas, it's for a lifetime!
Skipy

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 09:21 AM

Isla St. Clair was accepted by the folk scene from the age of about ten or twelve years of age. I well remember Hamish Henderson singing (sic) her praises 40 years ago.

Then she was accepted by the Game Show scene.

Then she has been accepted by the folk scene again as far as I know. Who says she isn't?

And in that list of singers who went onto bigger and better things where was the delectable Mike Harding?

Come on Lizzie - you started this thread. Not joining in any more?

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 10:47 AM

They had a retrospective on Abba which indicated that these days Benny Andersson, the one who had a beard, now does his music playing Swedish traditional music with mates.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 07:34 PM

From what I heard in concert some years back I wouldn't call Mary Black a folksinger any more. Doesn't change the fact she started out as a very good one.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Santa
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:42 AM

Define your terms.

If anyone who has ever sung one or more folk songs is a folk singer, then Barbara Dickson is.

If a folk singer is someone whose primary output, professional or amateur, is currently folk music, then Barbara Dickson isn't.

By that definition Isla St. Clair was, then wasn't, and perhaps is again (I'm not sure what else she does, if anything). As long as she keeps getting booked for clubs and festivals, does it actually matter?

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 07:45 AM

Why do people always seem hell-bent on pigeonholing others?

Does it matter? Well, obviously it must to those asking the question... but there must be more worthwhile things to discuss.

Subject: RE: A folk singer for now or for ever
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:44 AM

Yes, well, pigeonholing ... but anyway ...

Burl Ives is an important instance from half a century back.

Ives was, hands down, the most important professional circulator of traditional songs in the late 40s and especially the early 45 rpm-LP era, 1950-55 or so. His records and concerts established, for US audiences at least, a canon of some 40 or 50 American, English and Irish folk songs that still stand among the most commonly known, from "Blue Tail Fly" and "Lavender Blue" to "Big Rock Candy Mountain" and "Molly Malone."

But then he branched out into singing his own idiosyncratic sort of country-pop music: "A Little Bitty Tear Let Me Down," etc. From then on he would do the occasional traditional song, but in both style and repertoire he had become a country-pop-novelty singer, and a very effective one too, breaking in a whole new and much bigger audience who barely realized he was once the US' best known folk singer.

His reasons were undoubtedly various. He wanted a paying career, and the traditional music market (which he was foremost in creating) was small then as now. Also, he was beginning to break through as a well-known actor, moving from stage to screen, and doing that very well too. His more sophisticated popular music persona probably was a better complement to his primary profession. So, a good career move.

In one way it's odd we should be asking these questions. In most pre-20th century cultures, "popular" music equaled "people's" music and that was, in at least one important interpretation, traditional music as well. But the coming of electronic media meant "popular" music was no longer what filtered through people's consciousness in an endurance contest for longevity, but instead became a professionalized, competitive songwriters' and publishers' game in which quick popularity could be force-fed by sheer exposure -- Tin Pan Alley, in short. Thus "popular" music became, in style and repertoire, the primary killer, or driver-out, of traditional songs, singers and singing.

(Yes, I know, there are a dozen major objections to that quick overgeneralization, but anyway ... )

That's why it does matter, and isn't just pigeonholing. This is how traditional styles and repertoires got driven to the wall. This is one big reason why singers make the change from "folkie" to pop. They go not only where the money is, but where the market outlets are, and where the popular acclaim is, and the personal satisfaction of a "legitimate" career. That's not a complaint, it's just reality.

Besides, just because we love the traditional songs best (some of us do, at any rate), we shouldn't forget many varieties of popular song are fun to sing, challenging and satisfying in their own right. And they're especially well adapted to casual singing.

For example, "April Showers" or "Please Don't Talk About Me When I'm Gone" or "Here Comes the Sun", or you name your own favorites, really might work better in the shower, or while driving to work, than (naming some peppy trad favorites of my own) "The Old Man Who Lived Near Hell," "Salty Dog," "We're Gayly Yet" or "Lime Juice Tub" -- in part because they are more contemporary and do tune up your mind for a day in the contemporary world.

Me, I'm a folk singer for ever. (Though I've done the occasional ancient pop item in my concerts just for fun.) I can see the other guy's viewpoint. As to whether you still call him/her a folk singer after the switch is made, well, I guess Burl Ives most likely forfeited the name when he abandoned the game ... if that matters.

Like it or not, people will usually call you by some name that describes what you're doing. On the other hand, if you don't do it any more it may take them years, even decades to catch up, because they're not really paying that close attention. (You're lucky if they get it right in your obit.)

Thus the late Burl Ives still rates the name folk singer, even though that was only a small slice of his very long and productive career. Correct? Incorrect? Probably not worth worrying about. But as you can see, the fate of a whole brand of music lies very close under the surface of this. That's where the searing emotions come from, I suspect. -- Bob