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music, politics and censorship
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Subject: music, politics and censorship From: Philippa Date: 21 Apr 99 - 02:25 PM In the music, politics and mudcat thread Gargoyle lauded the Horst Wessel song, facetiously I hope. But then I don't actually know how the song goes, I just assume its bad because Nazis sang it. I read a book about the Arandora Star, a ship which was torpedoed and sunk off the coast of Ireland in WW2. The ship was carrying both German POWs and innocent "enemy aliens" - Italians who had been resident in the UK and refugees from Germany and Austria. Due to a spy scare, the "enemy aliens" were to be interned in Canada for the duration Most of the refugees were Jewish. The refugees felt very intimidated when pro-Nazi POWs sang the Horst Wessel song and that's what I think about when I hear/see the title. But I'm curious and would like to know how the song goes! Which leads to two topics for further discussion: 1) the extent to which a song might be tainted by association even if there's nothing so horrible in the actual lyrics and (more problematic) 2) censorship - where should we draw the line on what songs we are willing to publish? freedom of information vs disavowal of racism, sexism, etc. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Apr 99 - 03:41 PM Hi, Philippa - you raise quite a question there. Somebody requested the "Horst Wessel Lied" a couple of years ago. I posted the lyrics, but very reluctantly. Click here if you'd like to see the song. We had a thread that talked about censorship a while back, but I can't remember the name of it. Chet W. gave some fascinating observations, based on his experience in working with delinquent boys. The words of songs DO have a strong effect on people, especially upon young people. I think that music may well be the most powerful medium for propaganda. I think I'd say I'm against censorship, but I think that people have a responsibility to censor their own words. I think people also have an obligation to take responsibility for the effects of their own words. Words are powerful, and we must use them carefully. I breathed a sigh of relief when my youngest son turned 20 last November. All three of my kids survived their teenage years - but it wasn't an easy trip. So much of life seemed empty and meaningless for them at times, and they often seemed to have a lot of anger and alienation that I didn't understand. It didn't help that their parents got divorced, but I think my ex and I did the best we could with them. My ex and I are good friends, and we tried hard not to let our differences affect the kids. I think the problem is something pervasive in our culture, and not particularly in my family. My kids aren't violent themselves, but they seem to accept violence as an integral part of life. At times, they even seem to be a bit fascinated by violence. It seems to be something that brings something interesting to an otherwise boring life. All three have been tied to punk rock, and my oldest son has written and recorded some songs with very violent lyrics. We had a kid in my neighborhood who was always doing violent things. He had a collection of menacing knives, and he was kicked out of school more than once for violent acts. My daughter vehemently defended this kid, insisting he wasn't so bad and blaming his gentle parents for his actions. Last I heard, the kid was snetenced to a year in jail for vehicular manslaughter. A year ago, a young man was arrested here for the knife-slaying of several transients. Turns out my daughter had dated this guy for a while the year before. Gee, I'm glad she survived. It's an awful world, in many ways. I don't know if we have become more violent than previous generations were, but we certainly do horrible things to each other. We can't effectively stop other people from expressing ideas that encourage violence, but I think we have to do our best to ensure that we do not contribute to the spread of those ideas. We also need to do our best to spread ideas of peace and goodness and justice, especially through our music. -Joe Offer- Oh, and by "justice," I don't mean "revenge." Somehow, this society has confused those two words, and people seem to think they mean exactly the same thing. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:21 PM "We have to do our best to ensure that we do not contribute to the spread of these ideas". Well spoken Joe Offer, in a terribly troubling time. rick |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:30 PM Philippa, thanks for the thread. It's bound to get heated, but this is a pretty civil group of folks, so I think we'll be all right. I had never actually read the lyrics to the Horst Wessel song until a minute ago (silly me, I thought it was probably some old beer-drinking oompah song that might have been marginally offensive) and it saddens me that it probably gives great pleasure to some. Rick |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 21 Apr 99 - 05:33 PM Question, no answer....what is the opposite of censorship? Is it just non-censorship, passively allowing everything to be said by anyone? Is it actively speaking and living our testimonies? Is it actively supporting the testimonies of others, even if we disagree with them? |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: steve in ottawa Date: 21 Apr 99 - 06:29 PM Forum search seems to be stalling on me. However, the thread Joe referred to was a discussion arising from the question of whether or not people should be allowed to profit from hate songs like "Cop Killer". |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: bbelle Date: 21 Apr 99 - 09:25 PM With the same curiousity as Rick, I clicked on Joe's link. I had never heard these lyrics and it does give me a chill down my spine. I agree with Joe that I'm against censorship, however, I don't have to like the people who write these words or sing them or believe in them. For a few years, now, there's been a resurgence in Naziism ... neo-Naziism, if you will. It's frightening and I know that from firsthand experience. To be confronted with that depth of hate caused me to literally freeze ... not a reaction for which I take pride! It seems to be pc not to post lyrics which exalt slavery, however, I'm not sure the same goes for anti-semitism. Joe ... this is not directed towards you. I think I know from where you were coming. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Apr 99 - 10:01 PM It's a delicate balance, Moonchild. I thought long and hard before I posted those lyrics, and I talked with Wolfgang in Germany about it before I did. I think people need to know about these things. Posting the lyrics of the "Horst Wessel Lied" within an appropriate context serves that purpose, even though it also allows access to people who feed on the hatred within songs such as those. In the excellent television show about the Delaney sisters the other night, one of the sisters was going to demonstrate against the film Birth of a Nation. If this wasn't the first movie ever made, it was one of the first, so it certainly has historical significance - but it presents the Ku Klux Klan in a very favorable light, and the Klan sometimes uses it for recruiting. Should we show a movie like that, or not? It's not an easy question. As I said above, My kids see violence as something normal, even though they aren't violent themselves. On their first recording, my oldest son's punk rock band had a song called "Letter Bomb" - at a time when the Unabomber was mailing bombs out of our downtown post office. They had other songs that were just as violent in their content, also a cute little calypso song called "The Fuck of Love." Some of the kids who listen to my son's music fit the image of the kids who did the shootings in Colorado. And people wonder why my hair turned grey so fast. It's hard to understand the current fascination with violence. I suppose you could blame it on music and tv and video games, but I don't think that's the whole answer. Maybe part of it is ennui, just plain boredom. What is there to fascinate kids these days? I lived in Detroit until I was ten, and I was allowed to range a few miles from home and sometimes even to take the bus across town. I moved to Wisconsin when I was ten, and was able to go fishing on Lake Michigan or go just about anywhere I wanted - without supervison. I'd have been arrested if I had let my kids do that at that age. I sent them to Catholic schools and took 'em to soccer practice and Scouts and all sorts of structured activities - but they rarely had the freedom to go out and discover things on their won, because the world has become just too dangerous for that. They turned out to be nice kids, and they're smart and creative; but they're very reckless about how they live their lives. I think it's a reaction to the lack of freedom they had as kids. I think they're past the danger point, though. they'll be just fine. My point, though, is that I wonder how we should bring kids up in a violent world. Can we shelter them from the violence and hate without smothering them? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: bbelle Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:03 PM Joe ... taken as given. Thanks. I've not had children but am a surrogate mother to my youngest sister's 3 children and the issue of violence and to what they are exposed via movies, tv, music, etc. is ever on my mind. I'm afraid that, if they lived with me, I would smother them, which would definitely not be a good thing. I wasn't a particularly rebellious child, therefore, my parents gave me lots of freedom. What I watched and read was not censored and it never crossed my mind to do the things depicted in my uncensored reading matter. It's a different world today. I lived in Washington DC from the late 1960's to late 1970's and I went wherever I wanted. I wouldn't do that today. How does one teach against violence without showing what violence is? I don't have an answer. I believe, with all my heart, that the majority of parents do the best they can and at some point children have to take responsibility for their actions. I'm not sure at what age that occurs. I sense a sadness in this thread, from two individuals who don't have an answer or cure for today's violence, let alone past acts of violence. I wish I did ... I sure you do, too. moonchild |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: DonMeixner Date: 21 Apr 99 - 11:20 PM I am all for censorship as long as I am the censor and I am censoring myself. I would never dream of telling someone what to say or sing. I would hope that I, and others , have the sense to temper our words out respect for the audience and the situation in which we perform. I once did a job where the theme was PROTEST! I sang every Phil Ochs song I know, every Tom Paxton song, I sang the Fish Cheer. The next day was a Shape Note Sing with some of the same people I sang with the night before. Afterwards we sat around and sang what ever we liked. There were also some deeply religious folks who I had the ability to offend very easily. What would have been the point? When I sing "Bally James Duff(The Garden of Eden)" by Percy French I usually the verse " I've loved the young women of every land , Its alway been easy for me, Just barring the belles of the Eskimo lands or the chocolate shapes of Fiji." some times I don't. (I don't sing the song to offend the few black people that may be there. I sing it because its a charming and sad rememberance of a more gentile age. Was it a more racist age? You bet. But thats history.) But the act of censoring the song is mine to choose. When I sing The Year of Jubilo, I sing "Workers have you seen the Master?", rather than "Darkies have you..." for the same reasons, it serves no purpose to offend somebody intentionally. But again the choice is mine to make, not someones to enforce on me. And certainly not mine to enforce on someone else. When ever somene askes for the lyrics, I give them the right words and let them censor the song as they see fit. Lastly, don't confuse censorship with editorial policy. If some one wants to publish a song with a company that has a clearly stated editorial policy that would deny them contract. ( Clearly Stated is the buzz word here.) They have no right to cry censorship. None exists. Its the aspiring songsters fault for not doing his or her homework on what that company wants in the way of submissions. This will be a fun thread. Thanks Phillipa. Don |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Sandy Paton Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:19 AM This was in the daily "Bleed" that I receive from the Recollection Bookstore in Seattle, a sort of anarchist-oriented literary-political almanac that often covers events of the day throughout history that, curiously enough, fail to turn up in the daily almanac in the Hartford Courant. Since it pertains to the subject at hand, I thought I'd post it and ask for the reactions of other Mudcatters. To avoid any misunderstandings, I am not an anarchist, just a good old 1940's left-wing liberal card-carrying ACLU pinko grandfather who feels we must work to counter the advocates of violence and hatred and strive to make our children and our grandchildren conscious of the sanctity of life - as LEJ phrased it in another thread. Sandy
Make no laws whatever concerning speech & speech will be free; so soon as you make a declaration on paper that speech shall be free, you will have a hundred lawyers proving that "freedom does not mean abuse, nor liberty license"; & they will refine & define freedom out of existence. Let the guarantee of free speech be in every man's determination to use it, & we shall have no need of paper declarations. On the other hand, so long as the people do not care to exercise their freedom, those who wish to tyrannize will do so... — Voltairine de Cleyre, "Anarchism & American Traditions"
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Apr 99 - 12:45 AM "The people will fancy an appearance of Freedom...Illusion will be their native land." Jacques Ellul in "The Political Illusion" catspaw......neither anarchist nor hippie, just a good old 60's radical, card carrying ACLU pinko father, who wholeheartedly believes with the pinko grandfather above. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 22 Apr 99 - 04:19 AM Joe, for a couple of easy credits (in the late '50's) I took a course in Movie Appreciation. The first film we saw was "Birth of a Nation." The instructor gave a test on the film at the next class meeting, and the first question was something like "Discuss the use of folk music in the sound track which has been added to the film." I wrote, among other things, that the music which accompanied the scenes of "happy slaves" early in the film ("Turkey in the Straw"?) was chosen to romanticize slavery, and mournful music accompanied the later scenes of black people lost without "the comfortable protection of slavery"--summarizing that the music was chosen to accentuate the film's racism. I got no points for my answer, just a comment from the teacher that audiences throughout the South still were thrilled by this wonderful work of art. --seed |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Big Mick Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:29 AM "And there was hatred everywhere, and lawlessness had settled on the land, people so lost in righteous ideology that they could not do what was right. And all around them, their children were dying. The caring among asked, "Why?". And the answer was all around them." Big Mick Lane, the pinko left wing union organizer who will never apologize for seeking answers and who hopes he is half as wise as Sandy Paton some day. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:03 AM Don, I think you've opened up an important line of questioning. Editorial policy is a neccesity in a finite world: we cannot print everything, even if we wanted to. And it's not censorship. In a more general sense, commericial media only prints what the public wants to hear--meaningless, titillated sound bites. That's not censorship either, because it's what we asked for. But both of these phenomena, in aggregate, can effectively remove certain information from nearly all media. Call this ideocide, if you like; it's not really censorship. But its effects are just as devastating, maybe more so. The ideas that we casually whitewash from our culture are not given a chance to collapse from their own weaknesses, and so we actually give them new life. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Tucker Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:41 AM The Horst Wessel Lied, like the Internationale, is a catchy tune. I still haven't read the words, except in german which I don't understand that well anymore. I probably will go back in this thread and read them. An aside to Joe: My children are everything to me but their mother and I split up after 18 years of hell together. She finally admitted being lesbian and had a "coming out" ceremony. Two of my children blame me for everything, and one leans towards violence. I live in fear that another "Columbine" will be visited upon us by one of my own. That's not to say it will happen but I truly wish our press and entertainment wasn't obsessed with putting mayhem and violence in every product they put out. Isn't war bad enough to persuade us of the folly? Anyway Joe, I understand. I hope that is of some help. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: MMario Date: 22 Apr 99 - 10:45 AM According to one site - the Horst Wessel Lied was not set to original music, but to one of a family of "old german folk songs" and points out that the American Hymn, "How Great Thou Art" is almost identical music. MMario |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: katlaughing Date: 22 Apr 99 - 11:17 AM Mick, beautiful words, your own? I am not sorry to say I've never seen Birth of a Nation. And, I agree about the media feeding us what we ask for. I think some of my best stuff has been taken by my editor, for the "political" good of the state of Wyo. and it pisses me off. I also am not ashamed to admit I protested in support of 2Live Crew and their right to rap, sing, whatever in the state of Rhode Island in the 80's. I don't like their stuff and won't listen, but I do not believe in a general, government form of censorship. I believe society has over-indulged and each person needs to practise "self-censorship", as in the examples above about what you sing to your audience, but also in what you take into your own hearts and minds. katlaughing, but not very much this week |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: SeanM Date: 22 Apr 99 - 03:14 PM Bless you Kat... my thoughts exactly (except for the bit about the stuff being taken by the editor)... I've been following this thread, and trying to formulate and answer without any of the various dogma on free speech and the like that I sometimes catch myself falling into. After reading up on what has been said, I'd like to limit my response to the Horst Wessel bit of the thread... Specifically, my question is: After divorcing the Horst song from the horrific actions taken by the Nazis, would that song be still as abhorred if all German military references were replaced by American references? Or English? Or any other army? I guess my point is that this song is horrific, but in my view, not for the reasons that several people seem to believe in. To me, this song is just another terrifying example of propaganda aimed at getting the people of a nation 'in line' with the powers-that-be in yet another futile military action. While I do recognize that this particular song has become symbolic of one of the most disgusting acts of humanity to humanity, once away from that point, what makes this song any worse than any of the propaganda peices put out by just about every country that's ever fought? War's evil. Plain and simple. There never was, or will be a 'good' war, unless it be waged entirely on a philosophical level, with ideas and words instead of guns. Even the most 'justifiable' military action still begins with evil being met with more evil. Sorry... it's just my ex-military side stepping up. Having been in the clean up crew for 'Desert Storm' (one of the 'cleaner' conflicts of memory), this is a subject that stirs me up to no end. Stepping off my soapbox, with apologies to anyone I've offended (very serious apologies) M |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Tucker Date: 22 Apr 99 - 05:07 PM Sean, nobody hates war worse than a soldier, at least the one enlistment/draftee type. Don't apoligize. You did your job laddie, now let's see what we can do to avoid any others. My thanks to you and all other veterans. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Pete M Date: 22 Apr 99 - 05:43 PM Well Sean, you beat me to it, us 'M's better stick together eh? The "Horst Wessel Lied" may have the artistic merit of a dirty handkerchief, but it is not anti Semitic, and it is no more nationalistic and militarist than most National anthems. As you say it is propaganda, or to put it another way, part of a multi media branding exercise to raise the awareness of the public and to increase the market share of the organisation. Personally, I am with Don, we have no right to deliberately offend, and therefore an obligation to censor ourselves. We also have, I believe, an obligation to maintain songs as collected/written as a contemporary record. Incidentally Don, I think it could be validly be argued that people were no more racist in the past, they were perhaps more open in their views; apart from hypocrisy, what is really the difference between "No niggers need apply" and "I'm sorry sir, we welcome applications from people of colour, but I'm afraid we have no vacancies at present"? Ultimately Voltairine de Cleyre's statement says it all, thanks Sandy. Pete M - another red under the bed.
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Apr 99 - 08:19 PM OK, Pete, I'll admit you're right about the actual content of the "Horst Wessel Lied." I think it proves perfectly what Philippa said in the first message in this thread - about "the extent to which a song might be tainted by association even if there's nothing so horrible in the actual lyrics." In this case, though, it's not a situation of a good song being tainted - but the story behind the song and the horror that goes with the story make it far worse that the song seems on the face. That story and that horror have an effect even today - they strike terror in the hearts of those affected by the Holocaust, and they also give inspiration to those who seek to continue that terror. That's why it has been illegal to sing that song in postwar Germany, and rightly so. This is one case where I think that official censorship is entirely appropriate and healthy. Banning the song is a form of national penance for Germany. I've never heard the song performed, and I don't think I ever want to hear it. In the movie Cabaret, there is a scene in a beer garden where a few Nazis get up and start singing a song with an inspiring tone. I think the song was "Tomorrow Belongs to Me." Gradually, others get up and join in the singing, and almost everyone in the crowd has joined in by the end of the song. I imagine the scene echoes the effect of the "Horst Wessel Lied" - the mob drawn into the conspiracy of hatred by a song that sounds sweet and inspiring. As I listened to the song in the movie, I could feel myself being affected, almost inspired, by the tune. It certainly shows the power of music, doesn't it? In almost every situation I can think of, I don't agree with censorship. I think of fellow Christians who protested "The Last Temptation of Christ" and fellow Catholics who protested movies and TV programs that showed the human faults of priests - and I liked the shows they were protesting and even found "Temptation" to be a bit too pious. The "Horst Wessel Lied" is another matter - it should be handled very carefully, like a hand grenade with the pin pulled. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: DonMeixner Date: 22 Apr 99 - 11:48 PM Ethan, This line of thought is an interesting puzzle. And a serious one I feel. I agree that the effort to sanitize the world may mean we lose some art. Thats a shame that is nearly criminal. The artist who creates a grand work and fails to get the work seen because no one will publish it based on editorial policy has the right to self publish. The problems of distribution are now in the hands of the self publisher. Ask Sandy how hard it is to distribute widely with a small label when the world goes to malls and Media Play. It almost seems that no matter how honest and pure we like to keep our art, for some, the market place may be the ultimate arbiter of success. Look at what we lost when Electra Records made the editorial policy not to produce folk music anymore. I think that policy was made by business men and not by musicians and a business policy was sold to us as a change in editorial policy. Oh well, thats the world. Don |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Pete M Date: 22 Apr 99 - 11:50 PM I agree entirely Joe about the power of association. I suppose the idea that was nagging at the back of my mind, and which your post has helped bring out, is that in this case I believe that the only thing that is keeping the song extant, is the reference to the SA, and it's indelible association with the Nazi party. . Pete M
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Apr 99 - 05:47 AM This is one of the few situations where my English is not good enough for a long exposition of my thoughts. But there's no real need to do that since Joe Offer in his last post has beautifully said what I think. I'm against censorship except in very very few situations and this is one. This song should not be played at least in Germany at least as long as any survivor of the concentration camps is alive. The song, even the tune alone, will bring up memories for them of a brutality beyond expression. Some of them relive torture when they hear this song again. We should be decent enough to spare them that. It's not the actual words in that song that make it a no-play song, it's its association with that terror time. The song is not just any Nazi hymn it is the Nazi hymn for it was played regularly just before the National Anthem. Wolfgang some additions: Yes, the tune was taken from older sources. Look up Der Abenteurer for an older German song using that tune. Of course, the Horst Wessel Lied has had its parodies during the Nazi time, like singing "Die Preise hoch, die Schnauze fest geschlossen" (up with the prices, shut up your mouth) instead of "Die Fahne hoch, die Reihen fest geschlossen" ( look here for a full German version of that parody following closely the structure and lyrics of the original). The difference between singing or (in German English:) sinking these alternative lyrics could be the difference between being dead or alive then. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Wolfgang Date: 23 Apr 99 - 06:04 AM another more famous parody come from Bert Brecht: Der Metzger ruft. Die Augen fest geschlossen das Kalb marschiert mit ruhig festem Tritt... (The slaughterer calls. The eyes firmly shut, the calf marches with silent solid steps...). Go here for the full version. Yes, it's the same Bert Brecht who has been accused later in the McCarthy trials. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Philippa Date: 23 Apr 99 - 06:13 AM just to say thanks to all contributors; I don't have time to write at length just now. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Steve Parkes Date: 23 Apr 99 - 08:07 AM I'm finding it hard to imagine a song like the HWL taking that kind of hold in Britain. Maybe I'm just naive, but any attempt at introducing such a song would instantly give rise to parodies. I know we all sing "The Queen" when it suits us, and you would have to be an utterly miserable soul not to join in "Land of Hope And Glory" on the Last Night of the Proms, but it leaves us no more patriotic or nationalistic than we were before. The popular all-in-the-same-boat songs here in WWII were of the "Are we downhearted?-No!" type, like "White Cliffs of Dover" and "There'll always be an England". One song that has had trouble with the censors over the years is "Colonel Bogey"; I recall in the sixties a British Railways ticket collector was censured (and censored!) for whistling the tune while he worked; a respectable lady complained, because the words are obscene. How did she know?! All very silly in any case, because the tune pre-dates the wartime words by donkey's years. Steve If you want the words, by the way, it's in the DT here. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: SeanM Date: 23 Apr 99 - 01:53 PM I'll stay away from the censorship and propaganda side of this thread this time, I promise!!! Anyway, to what DonMeixner said about market forces changing the music, isn't that more or less what's always happened? Back before commercial recording, your market was, well, the market crowd in the pub, or wherever everyone gathered to sing. True, with today's mass media, it's much harder to become a huge commercial success in folk music. But, as we say in the group I'm in, we're all in a big, really expensive hobby. If we make enough to cover recording costs (which we do... barely), then we're happy to be able to have shared what we have with people who will listen. It is sad that it's nearly impossible for new acts starting out to get a decent distribution deal, but that's an unfortunate fact that we all know starting out to be a 'folk band'. Several other sacrifices from the 'true' songs are made in hopes of attracting a wider audience, but once again, these are choices that some of us make. I guess what's really important is not the size of the audience, but the quality of the performance... I mean... As long as we keep the music going, there will always be someone to pick up the torch, whether as a performer or an audience. While it's a shame we won't get rich, at least we fight the good fight... and as it's to preserve ourselves, perhaps it's the only good fight to have. M |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: DonMeixner Date: 23 Apr 99 - 06:04 PM Sean, The marketplace should never be confused with management. In a very general the market place is you and I and anyone who who buys what is sold. Manage ment are those forces who try to determine what is to be sold. I realize that this is very simplistic and I'm sure you already know this but in the wake of the disaster in Colorado I find an interesting tie to what is being discussed here. Marilyn Manson and Hollywood and Video Game companies as well as the NRA and Gun Manufacturers are being blamed for brutallity. Time Warner owns Marilyn Manson and other Gothiic loons and as long as they are making money, they will continue to employ these people who take a check with one hand while they rail at the fraudulence and hypocracy of big business. The President feels the pain of all these people and says we must put an end to all this movie violence while Steven Spielberg shovels money into the save the presidents legal fund. (Private Ryan being only marginally graphic :-/ ) The same folks who own the music and movies also own video games. I have nothing good to say about the NRA and the only thing that should be held harmless in all this is probably a pistol which isn't inherently dangerous 'till someone picks it up and pulls the trigger. (That ought start something?) How does this all come back to censorship? With individual choice comes individual responsibility. Marilyn Manson whomI detest didn't kill anyone. Neither did watching Blade or City of Angels. The pistol didn't cause someone to be killed. To damaged kids did who were probably hard wired into this end for some time did. It was their choice, its only the current technology that allowed them to carry it out. Without guns they would have used more bombs probably. But the choice and the responsibilty was theirs and theirs alone. I choose to self censor my performances. When I sing Iron Lady or Men Behind The Guns or Trooper Cut Down In His Prime, I sing them as fits the situation. Itall comes back to personal choice. Its probably a good thing that my kind of musicisn't likely to be run by big business. Don |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Chet W. Date: 23 Apr 99 - 06:32 PM Thanks, Joe, for your comment about my comments. I rather thought that I had irritated people. I agree with all who say that there should be no government censorship, but that we must all censor what comes into our homes for the sake of any children, our own or others', that we may be responsible for. There are few better examples than Cop Killer. On a lighter note, and agreeing of course that we cannot use racial or otherwise hurtful words in new performances of old songs, I can't help but be amused by the use of the substitute "worker". It makes all these old songs sound like they came from communist youth camps. SO, my partner and I wrote a new verse several years ago for "The Year of Jubilo" to add to the altered ones: On May Day all the workers gather out on the old Red Square, They celebrate the revolution where there'll be no hard times there, They raise a toast to Marx and Lenin while they tear their statues down, There's going to be a big revival when the Baptists come to town. The massa run, Ha Ha, the workers push and shove, There's going to be a great day coming in the year of Gorbechuv. By the way, a lot of older reworkings of such songs substituted other words, like "preacher" or "rounder". Too much?, Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Chet W. Date: 23 Apr 99 - 07:59 PM I also meant to report this. I read only last night an article in TheAtlantic online (theatlantic.com) a review of a book about the decay of our culture. In it was mentioned a video game called "Postal" in which players go into a PO and shoot people. The interesting part was that the victims on the video screen get a chance to plead for their lives first. Don't know how this affects the score. Any thoughts on this one? Also, a flyer that I circulate here and there reads "Guns don't kill people; Bullets kill people." If there is no correllation, as some loudly proclaim, between the easy availability of guns in this country (particularly here in South Carolina), then I'd love to hear the thinking behind that. If we do have gun control, wouldn't that be censorship of guns? If so or if not, if we do decide that it's okay to censor (or, to mince words, prohibit)instruments of violence, are we saying that words cannot be instruments of violence? Obviously they can. There was a French movie a few years ago called "Hate", I believe, in which a barely organized gang of teen-age or thereabouts disaffected nihilists happen to acquire a handgun in the confusion of a riot. The possession of this gun is a big deal in the movie. Seemed kind of odd to see that through jaded American eyes. I'm done, Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: DonMeixner Date: 24 Apr 99 - 12:52 AM Chet Nice retooling of the old song. May I add it too my play list? Don. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Chet W. Date: 24 Apr 99 - 10:09 AM Feel free to use it Don. Just send me a small share if you hit the charts with it. Chet W. |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MARYLAND MY MARYLAND From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 24 Apr 99 - 01:17 PM Of course, rather innocent music can become attached to vile events. The music of Wagner and its association with Nazi Germany is a case in point. If you don't know the "association" it will not bring up feelings of dread or hate. If you do know the associations, it is a powerful cue for dread and hate. About the Horst Wessel Leid Sean M asked, "would that song be still as abhorred if all German military references were replaced by American references?" I don't think so. The following comes from the official state song of my home State, Maryland, taken right from Maryland Statutes. (a) The poem "Maryland! My Maryland!", which James Ryder Randall composed in 1861, and the tune of "Lauriger Horatius" are the State song.
(b) The words of the State song are: Finally, Bseed, where in the hell did you go to school? After getting that test back I think I might have decided I was in the wrong place! Especially if I was thinking the way I think you are thinking. Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Susan A-R Date: 24 Apr 99 - 09:38 PM This is an amazing thread. I sing with a civil war group, and we do give thought to what we sing, what verses we cut, because, although that one was over one hundred and thirty years ago, there are still songs that you can't do, north or south, without upsetting people a lot. I still say an apologetic prayer to my Grandma Sal (from Georgia) when I sing the Battle Hymn of the Republic, particularly the fiery gospel verse, and Marching Through Georgia carries a fair amount of weight still. Songs and their melodies and words have a lot of power, which is why I love them so, and why they need to be used with thought. Sometimes I wonder if young folk look to the Gangsta stuff because it does have some of that power, twisted though it may be. So much out there is devoid of any of it, for good or ill. Oh, and Wolfgang, thank you for the Brecht lyrics and site. I sing a few of his, and want to learn and sing more. Those songs are also still alive, in a remarkable and wonderful way. Just did Wife of the Soldier at a Kosovo benefit up here, and it is an amazingly sharp edged song. Susan |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Ethan Mitchell Date: 25 Apr 99 - 11:14 AM I don't know which thread this should be on but I'm putting it here. I've been thinking about violence in music (movies, etc.) and about censorship, and I get this rather creepy feeling of similarity between the two. Both of them seem to be industrial manipulations of other people's emotions. The rap industry is shameless in their exploitation of real urban problems, which they do little to solve and a great deal to perpetuate. But the censors response to a crisis like Colorado is chillingly similar: we take advantage of people's grief to take away their rights. Both situations are exploitative. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Chet W. Date: 25 Apr 99 - 02:24 PM Ethan, a very good point you just made. I have said before that censorship by the authorities is a bad thing and that freedom of speech is essential to democracy, but this whole rap/violence/media industrial business is not about freedom of speech or anything else of the kind; It is about money, and lots of it. If there had been songs like Cop Killer in the sixties, the big record companies would probably not have added it to their catalogs, but only because the profit potential would not have seemed to have been there. (what tense was that clause, you English teachers out there?) Now that the money is so obviously there, they are all suddenly for the first amendment. I asked my students one day what company they would choose, given the opportunity, to manufacture shoes to match prison uniforms (I teach in a juvenile prison). The overwhelming favorite was Tommy Hilfiger. I e-mailed Tommy with this surprising result and never got a reply. Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: ML Ivey Date: 25 Apr 99 - 04:23 PM This is a very intersting thread. There are a lot of good points being made. Personally, I agree that people should censor themselves, not be censored by the authorities. As far as bringing up children in a violent world, I think the best thong to do is instruct children in how to make their own choices and hope that they make the right ones. I'm not far past childhood myself and my parents gave me a lot freedom as to what I would watch or listen to. Perhaps it not so much that violent music makes kids violent, but that kids with violent tendencies like violent lyrics? I do think, though, that all the violence on television gives kids an unrealistic idea of the realities of life and death. People who have grown up hunting and trapping generally have more respect for life and a better understanding of the permanent results of wanton violence. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 25 Apr 99 - 06:17 PM Chet: are you asking about "would not have seemed to have been there"? The verb "would have seemed" is present perfect conditional, the "not" is of course an adverb and "to have been there" is a perfect infinitive, a verbal noun serving as the complement of the copulative verb "seemed." I hope that is perfectly clear: it will appear in the mid-term exam. And Roger: I was at Fresno State [California} College (now University, current home of Jerry Tarkanian). I think the time is more telling than the place--1958--but Fresno State was pretty well segregated socially: my fraternity, Theta Chi, was the first on campus to integrate--that is, to let Armenians join. Alpha Phi Alpha was the African American fraternity (incidentally, its president, as I recall, was named Ivey--I think his first name was Mike). One of the sororities had a Chinese American member. The city was divided by Highway 99 into Fresno and West Fresno. West of the highway (now the freeway) was populated mostly by minorities, very few if any of whom lived east of the freeway. --seed |
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Subject: Lyr Add: DER FUHRER'S FACE From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 25 Apr 99 - 06:37 PM Oh, I forgot when I was posting above that I had been intending to enter one of the World War II songs I remember--along with "The White Cliffs of Dover" and "Remember Pearl Harbor," "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition," and "Coming In on a Wing and a Prayer":
"Der Fuhrer's Face"
It's from a Disney cartoon, with Donald Duck and others. There are a few lines I don't remember (anyone else?).
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Steve Parkes Date: 26 Apr 99 - 03:46 AM So that's how you spell "sphhht"! Spike Jones and the City Slickers (for it was they) also perform it (live action, this time) in a picture with Lucille Ball, who plays a movie actress working as a rivetter or welder in a ship-building yard. Steve |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: dick greenhaus Date: 26 Apr 99 - 12:48 PM Und ven Herr Goebbels says, "You'll get some meat next week" Ve Heil! Heil! But still don't get no meat But to doubt Herr Goebbels vould be indiscreet So ve Heil! Heil! Und still don't get no meat. |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Philippa Date: 27 Apr 99 - 12:27 PM I don't see why a couple of contributors find the Year of the Jubilo problematic. It is an anti-slavery song. We have to both remember the time it was composed in and the genre. I wouldn't change 'darkies' to 'workers' because the problem was partly that the black people didn't have worker status; they were slaves. I see the song as a send up. It's comical. ut it's also clear which side it's on. This is one of the problems about censorship - our different interpretations and values. When I was at Cornell some feminists rang to complain about the uni radio programme broadcasting a song with the lyrics "It's a shame to whip your wife on a Sunday (3x) When you've got Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday It's a shame to whip your wife on a Sunday I don't see that song as condoning domestic violence, but as ridiculing pious hypocrites. sometimes I change lyrics to make them more politically correct or more personally relevant. More often, however, I try to understand the song, especially if it's quite old and traditional, other people's voices coming through me. Of course, if I don't find some appeal in the song, I wouldn't be singing it in the first place, but I might not like/agree with everything in it. I think there is a place for some legal restraints on broadcasting hate material - incitement to violence and untrue defamation |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: DonMeixner Date: 27 Apr 99 - 12:37 PM Hi Phillipa, I tend to agree with you very often on opinions. The Year of Jubilo is a favorite of mine and when I sing I only change the word "Darkies" to "Workers". I do this because if I were black I imagine that I'd be offended by the term used in that manner. I have yet to reconcile "The Darktown Strutter's Ball" any good way as yet. Its a fun tune to sing and play but I save it as a guilty pleasure and when no one is around I sing it to my self. The odd thing I find that makes this difficult for me is the one or two times I've had a request for it was from a black couple that I know were musicians and played in Rag Bands in the 30's. I didn't play it because I didn't want to take a riffle of shit from the well meaning white people in the audience. Don |
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Subject: RE: music, politics and censorship From: Rick Fielding Date: 27 Apr 99 - 12:54 PM The old Fiddlin' John Carson song "It's a shame to Whip...." is a good example of a lot of things: current and past attitudes, misunderstood messages, harmless(?) satire, etc. but I like Pete Seeger's take on the issue. "Sometimes a person with a chip on their shoulder has had that shoulder rubbed raw for many years, and that one old song (or silly comment, or TV program, or bumper sticker) was the straw that broke the camel's back." (or something like that)
For me, it's just EASIER not to play the song, (or "massa" songs, or "nigger" or "darkie" songs) As with so many issues today, I find that because I refuse to have faith in ANY ideology, I'm inconsistent in how I re-act to these issues. When a group of folks wanted to ban "The Merchant of Venice" and a different group wanted to ban "Showboat" in Toronto, I couldn't offer my support. I would have had no interest in seeing either production...but..had one starred Robeson, and the other Geilgud..I would have attended in a flash! Same with the issue of "gays in the military, or the pulpit". Lots of my friends took up both causes, but I could care less. I just can't get emotional about those issues. When the Teachers' union asked me to visit the picket lines with some songs last year, I said yes in a flash. Now those folks are under the gun in Ontario. Sorry for the digression (from Fiddlin John to this) but I do that sometimes. |
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