Ever played a Welsh Crwth?

Subject: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 12:46 AM

Found this very interesting old instrument while looking for bowed psaltery videos on youtube: this video.

Following his instructions, I found some mp3s of superb playing HERE by Cass Meurig.

There is something about medieval musical instruments or at least instruments that sound medieval that I just LOVE.

Enjoy and anyone know how much these are and where to get one? Also, how difficult are they to play? Oh, yeah, and did I hear the pronunciation right, "sith?"

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: MystMoonstruck
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:53 AM

Thank you for the links! That was fascinating~quite an intriguing instrument that I'd love to try my hand at though it likely wouldn't sound anything like in the video. I'd enjoy finding other crwth performances.

I will say that I have never encountered this instrument, but I have read about it and have seen pictures of it, including an etching of one used as an illustration in a dictionary. There's a heated debate about the pronunciation, but "krooth" rhyming with "youth" seems to crop up more times. Check out the argument in Wikipedia! A recording of the word seems at odds with this, sounding more like "krith". It does seem to be a touchy subject.

Thanks to the link, I also was able to watch several of the other videos, including the bowed psaltery players. It's interesting to see the varying methods used, none of which matches my own. By the way, I use one bow because 1) I couldn't afford a second one; 2) I have a left hand that I can type with but not hold and move a bow without damaging the bow or the strings; and 3) It was simpler to learn to crossbow.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:01 AM

A "crwth?" WTH?

I think the Welsh should get together with the Hawaiians, who are short on consonants, and buy (trade for) a vowel.

;-D

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:06 AM

I am sure some of our Welsh speakers will come along and let us know how they pronounce it!**bg**

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: GUEST,Jerry O'Reilly
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:19 AM

Curiously one of the Irish names for the harp is Cruit although it obviously doesnt sound anything like the Welsh instrument.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Anglo
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 02:36 AM

Well, I can't resist this thread. I do actually own a crwth, though it needs a new tailpiece and restringing. I never did get far with it though, I think you need to be a bit of a fiddle player, even then it's damned awkward, and my main instrument is concertina. So it's decoration for the living room at the moment.

Sometimes I wish I could do more for my Welsh background...

And BTW, Genie, in Wrelsh "w" IS a vowel.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 04:05 AM

I have only ever heard it pronounced as "crooth" to rhyme with "truth". And yes,Anglo is right. "w" is a vowel in Welsh, along with a,e,i,o, u and y. So we have more vowels than the English! "w" is pronounced as something like "oo" in English.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:00 AM

Mary I think you should get one it makes a truly original and dramatic sound that would go well in some of your Welsh songs! Mike Pickering sounds his best

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:52 AM

The crwth has been my main instrument for over twenty years with respect to storytelling, medieval, folk & imprised / experimental musics - see Hiberna Desiderium for a short video of me playing a Welsh pattern Crwth (with doromb pelude!) which was made for me by Tim Hobrough in 1986.

See also my wee film of the Cloister Bosses, Norwich Cathedral which was edited against a crwth based improvisation.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:13 AM

Cwrw - I just love our Welsh word for beer! Cwrw is pronounced "coo-roo", just as crwth is pronounced "crooth". In medieval times it was pronounced "crowd", from which the surname Crowther derives. Google crwth, and see what you come up with.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:14 AM

Cruit in Irish, crowd in English, crwth in Welsh. All the same word.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:18 AM

Good, I feel better about now, will more people play it?

Jones the Mandola, but only slowly

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:47 AM

One theory has it that the bow developed from the increasingly long plectra that were used in lyre strumming from earlist times. Certainly the earlist iconographical evidence for stringed instruments being played with a bow depict lyres (crwth / crowd etc.) rather than fiddles, which came about when the bow was later applied to lute type instruments.

As a bowed instrument, the lyre existed in Northern-Europe until comparatively recent times in the form of the Welsh crwth and the various talharp / jouhikko instruments that would appear to be undergoing something of a revival pesently.

For more on the crwth click HERE

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:06 AM

The crwth died out in England, but it survived in Wales. However, "modern" violins were imported from Italy, and the crwth went into a quick decline. It did not become extinct, though - there were tales of one or two remote cottages where an ancient crwth was displayed. Even the tuning to the strings was lost.

However, fiddle players with a love of the crwth have been responsible for its rebirth, including Cass Meurig and Bob Evans. Cass recorded a CD for the Welsh label Fflach (she organises the Snowdonia Fiddle Festival) and Bob plays crwth in the duo Bragod and the group Pwngk - he has recorded CDs. Bob delivers a very interesting lecture on the crwth, too. With four crwth makers selling their wares, I can safely say that the instrument has reached the turning point.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Sorcha
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:13 AM

I want one very badly, but I'd probably never learn to play it.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: greg stephens
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:13 AM

I am intrigued by Dr Price's staement that the crowth survived: I had imagined it became extinct in Wales as in England. Can we actually see physical specimens in museums, and is their evidence how late they were played?

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:20 AM

There's a good few extant originals in museums - including one in the Victoria & Albert in London.

I hear that Welshman John Cale flattened his viola bridge to approximate the droning sound of the crwth when playing with the Velvets.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:34 AM

I think I have seen one at St Fagans Museum , though I may have been mistaken.
Mary

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Mick Tems
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 08:50 AM

I think there's one in the Wales National History Museum at St Fagans, Cardiff. In the Norwegian Church Arts Centre in Cardiff Bay, I saw Cass playing her crwth on her launch tour for the CD "Crwth". Cass is a fabulous player of the fiddle and the crwth, and an ex-member of the visionary folk band Fernhill.

The crwth went into decline towards the 18th century, although I have it on good authority that there were a couple of crwths surviving.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:16 AM

We're planning to make an application to the Heritage Fund of the National Lottery to buy 8 pibgorn (hornpipes) and 2 crwth, train tutors and tour schools, community groups and festivals. If successful, there may be a chance we can bring them to the Smithsonian Festival in 2009, as Wales will be a featured nation.

If you want to buy a playable one, you probably won't get any change out of 900 UK pounds.

While we're on the subject of Welsh instruments, I don't know if I've posted the link to the make-your-own-pibgyrn before now. Maybe it should be a separate thread but ... here it is.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Dame Pattie Smith EPNS
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 09:25 AM

Bob Evans gave a very informative lecture on the Crwth at the Welsh Fiddle and Competition weekend at the Stackpole Centre, Pembroke last week. He had 3 of them with him and people were allowed to examine them afterwards. He's your man if you need to know anymore!

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 10:32 AM

So, that's what the line in "Bertha's Mussels" refers to. Having looked at the instruments, I can see why she had triplets.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:17 PM

sian! Thanks for the link. Now I want a pibgorn, too! I just love the medieval sounds! Do you know if the fellows playing have a CD available?

Thanks to you all for the further info on the crwth, esp. how to pronounce it properly. Seems they may be a bit too pricey for me, but I have ordered Cass' CD so I can at least enjoy listening to it.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:32 PM

Anglo, I was really just being silly (above). (And the Welsh aren't the only ones to skimp on vowels, anyway. Check out some Polish names.)

But thanks for clarifying that "w" is a vowel in Welsh. (It is in English, too, sometimes, at the end of a word or syllable, as part of a dipthong.)

:)

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Genie
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:50 PM

BTW, this sounds like a very interesting instrument.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: GUEST,Bert on Kelly's machine.
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 11:36 PM

Lark in the Morning have one here

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 11:45 PM

Kewl, Bert, thanks! Still a bit much for me, right now, but something to save up for!

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: CET
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 06:40 AM

How does the English word "crowd" become the same word as "crwth" and "cruit"?

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Cats
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

The Cref [in Cornish] is played by Mike O'Connor [Crowdercref]. If you want to know anything about it try pm ing him.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 03:20 PM

kat, the same company - Fflach - that issued Cass' CD has one on pipes - 'pibau'. I'm not sure if Ceri Rhys Matthews' newest has a pibgorn on it. Doesn't seem like it from the blurb. A number of groups use the pibgorn (and some the crwth) including Crasdant and Carreg Llafar.

We're also planning a conference for next year which will bring together Cass and aforementioned Mike O'Connor (Crowdercref) and one other (hopefully Breton). The idea is to have a day with people who have dug up old manuscripts, researched them, and republished them for a modern user-ship. Ought to be interesting.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 03:28 PM

English 'crowd' (in this context) is a loan-word from Welsh. Whether the final consonant has hardened in English from original ð or whether it has softened in Welsh, I don't know; but I'd suspect the former, perhaps reinforced by print and the inevitable confusion of ð with d as the additional letter symbols used in Old and Middle English fell out of use.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:04 PM

It's "crotta" in Latin I believe (but I am emphatically not an authority, don't quote me!)

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: The Doctor
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:04 PM

As has been said before in this context, 'Strwth!'

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: CET
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:33 PM

It certainly sounds like a loan word, but I was wondering about the meaning. I don't see any obvious link between a stringed instrument played with a bow and a large number of people.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:35 PM

Thanks, sian, that sounds as though it will be a wonderful event. I'll look at those CDs, too.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: PMB
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 05:31 AM

'Crowd' from 'crwth' is a regular result of the great vowel shift (not 'bowel' as I once wrote- well, the letters are adjacent). So a word like 'loud' would be 'lood' in mediaeval English (and Scots too). I think 'crude' is a word that entered the language too late for the obvious puns that the English would inevitably have made to denigrate something Welsh.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:56 AM

Have checked with a friend who is a translator at our National Assembly and asked him to look in the uber-dictionary which no mere mortal in Wales can afford. He says it says that 'crwth' comes from the Middle Irish 'crott' which means 'harp' or 'crwmp'. It apparently comes from the same word as the Welsh word 'croth' (womb) from the Celtic 'krutta'.

Now what the heck a 'crwmp' is ... I dunno!

Right, so the crwth now becomes 'hot stuff' cuz it's 'really' Irish ...

But seriously, I have some recollection that the bards of Ireland and Wales used to have some pretty serious get-togethers in the dim and distant path and at one of them (it was Ireland's turn to have the boys round 'to theirs') they established the 24 (or is it 25?) official metres of our poetry, which the Welsh still hold to. Rather makes sense that one of the two official status instruments for court bards (the other being the harp) would reflect the collegiate approach of the time.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:56 AM

OK - crump is, apparently, a hump, as in "camel's ... ". Now we know.

And, of course, I did mean 'dim and distant past'. More haste, less speed.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:32 PM

Everybody sing..."She tuned up his crwth, and I'll tell you the truth, she had triplets the very same year"

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:42 PM

LOL, El Swanno!

I LOVE it...find a new "old" instrument to learn about and get a lesson in etymology to boot! Thanks!

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Dave Swan
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:09 PM

Don't think for a minute that I wrote that. It was, however, written by a Mudcatter who appears farther up this page.

Eat Bertha's Mussels

Chorus:
Eat Bertha's Mussels, they're the best there is by far
You can eat them in the dining room, you can eat them in the bar
So when you're ashore in Baltimore and you fancy a bite to eat
Just follow your nose to Bertha's, you'll be in for a rare old treat.

All:
Now a sailor came to Bertha's with a problem most severe
His manly pride had been atrophied from a voyage of forty years
A couple of plates of mussels, now he sings in a different key
His jib boom's set right, he'll be in there tonight and he'll never go back to sea

Chorus:

All:
Now a lady came to Bertha's, who wanted a daughter or a son
The doctors had said with a shake of the head that she couldn't have either one
So she ate a plate of mussels and went home to her husband dear
She tuned up his cryth, and I'll tell you the truth, she had triplets the very same year.

Chorus:

All:
They will cure your diarrhea, cure your constipation, too.
Just swallow a box for the chicken pox, the measles or the flu.
Now, if you fancy a healthy life, get your daily doses straight
A plate a day of Bertha's mussels, and you'll live 'til you're 98.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:48 PM

AH! LMAOWROTF!

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 03:26 AM

Hey, that's anatomically incorrect! It should be, "He tuned up her crwth, and I'll tell you the truth, she had triplets the very same year"

BTW, 'cello' in Welsh is 'soddgrwth'. Just thought you'd want to know that.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Crowdercref
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 02:04 PM

FYI in middle English and Cornish we find cruit, crouth, crowd. Hence the surnames crouther and crowder.

By the way, sadly I don't have a crwth. I have a three string Cornish Crowd - the functional equivalent of the Welsh crwth trythant - the apprentice instrument. Mine is modelled on iconography dating about 1525 - a pew end carving at Altarnun.

There is also a carving of a crwth (perhaps with 4 strings) at Cotehele house in East Cornwall. But the carving is believed to have come from Wales.

There is no evident of post-medieval crwth survival in Cornwall, though it is hinted at just a bit by the continued use of the words crowd and crowder to mean any sort of fiddle/fiddler.

The cref in crowdercref means 'great' or 'big', hence - big fiddler!

Us crowders aren't proud!

Oll an gwella

Crowdercref

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 02:11 PM

What fun! Thanks for the information, Crowdercref! Do you have any pictures of your Cornish Crowd?

sian, let's see if I am learning anything about Welsh pronunciation:

cello = soddgrwth = sod-g/crooth?

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 02:34 PM

Well, close, kat. The 'dd' is a 'th' sound, but the 'th' as in 'the', not the 'th' as in 'thistle'. Get the difference. So 'sodd' is ... ummm ... sawth(e). Maybe like 'both' in BOTHered?

Crikey, phonetics are tough!

And the 'c' in crwth mutates to the 'g' because it's preceded by a ... mmm ... adjectival whosiebing.

Hiya Mike. I was just reading about the trythant in Sally Harper's new book. There's a photo of the Cotehele House carving in it.

sian

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 03:04 PM

So it's sawthgrooth? (Love that "whosiebing!")

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 06:38 PM

Well, as far as I can tell from typing, yes. Come to think of it, the syllable ends in the "th" sound ("dd") as in "the", and the second one ends in the more aspirate "th" as in "tooTH".

Not sure if that helps or just muddies the water further.

Get on Skype. I'll pronounce it for you!

sian
Skype: tracdir

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: Flatpick
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

I don't play instruments that can't afford any vowels.

Subject: RE: Ever played a Welsh Crwth?
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:27 PM

Found some for around 300 pounds, or is it Euros now at this place.

Just got the CD by Cass Meurig. LOVE it!!