EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'

Subject: EFDSS & 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM

I was somewhat surprised to learn that the EFDSS 75th anniversary celebration day will feature a "Folk Free Zone" session, billed as "an open mike session for young singers & songwriters."

Now, fair enough, there is another (longer) singaround-type session later in the evening. Still, it strikes me as odd to have such a session on such a day.

More details here: -

http://www.efdss.org/this_wk.htm#75th

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 01:31 PM

The Friday night (19 October) Knees Up ceilidh has Faustus, a band not fussed about what their music is called.
And the following Thursday C# hosts The Electric Proms, a tribute to Lal Waterson.
It all sounds better than usual for the venue.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:02 PM

I agree with you Button.EFDSS are supposed to be promoting English folkdance and song,the music played on the night may well be this,but why not promote it as such,is folk music something to be ashamed of.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

The point presumably is to bypass "what is folk?" and "is this folk?" - and an excellent idea too.

But why the ageism? - "young singers & songwriters"

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM

Don't get me wrong, I've got nowt against songwriters, young or otherwise. I've even written the odd one myself.

Thing is, there's plenty of forums (fora?) for singer songwriters to perform their stuff. Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me. Where's the f in EFDSS? one might ask. ;-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Peace
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 05:32 PM

I've heard a joke like that before . . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 06:54 PM

What on earth is the motive behind this strange piece of self-deprecation? Is it perhaps a pre-emptive cringe towards all those people who believe that anything labelled "folk" must be terminally uncool? If so, the stratagem seems unlikely to pull many of them in.   Turning one room in C# house into a "folk free zone" for one night won't decontaminate the old place sufficiently for style-conscious people with media-moulded tastes to feel safe in there.

Better stick to your guns Cecil! The F-word may be anathema to some, but many of us are still not embarrassed to use it in public. And if you really want to run an open mike night for aspiring young singer/song-writers (or rappers, or stand- up comics) – well, why not? There's a perfectly respectable case for describing all of these forms of self expression as "folk" arts. And if you accept that definition, why bother to proclaim a special folk-free zone for them? Let them come along and muck in with the rest of us!

Wassail!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: katlaughing
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:01 PM

I don't pretend to know much about the venue other than what I've read here, but it sure strikes me as a bit disingenuous and I agree with what Mike says. They'll be excluding a bunch of "folk" the younguns might really learn from and enjoy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 08 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM

To be fair, it's only one part of a day-long event. But even so. Why have the only bit of it specifically for young performers as non-folk?

I also think Mike makes a very good point in his second paragraph.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

I must confess I've always found the EFDSS to be a bit of a strange organisation and for that reason have never got round to joining. I have always had the impression that strong factions within the organisation are much more interested in dance than song (and even find the song side a bit of an embarassment) - although the recent exemplary work of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library has gone some way towards redressing the balance.
Nevertheless, if I was a member I really think that this 'Folk free zone' thing would be a resigning matter - it's nothing short of a disgrace!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:53 AM

I was a 'Card Carrying Member' of the society for a number of years but let my membership lapse when my Local Committe organised a Dance for Dancers on National Folk Day - The day all memnbers were supposed to be carrying the message of Folk to the uninitiated !
For those not aware , A Dance For Dancers has NO Caller , and is only for those who know the dance beforehand !

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:03 AM

As Blackadder said to Baldrick: 'Do you know what irony is?'
Baldrick: 'Er . . . it's like silvery and goldy . . . '

Doesn't it occur to any of you that the EFDSS is perhaps hoping to dispel the crap image 'f*lk' has among the public at large (like any old tripe performed with an acoustic guitar by people wearing jumpers and beards and tankards) and drawing in musicians with new ideas, an absence of outdated assumptions and an ability to compose and play in the tradition and reflecting peoples lives as they are in England today?

And the Knees Up eceilidh which forms part of the proceedings on Friday is absolutely nothing to do with D for D. Very much the opposite.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:08 AM

'eceilidh ' ??

Does that mean its online?

8-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 11:12 AM

No. no. not sodding linedancing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:09 PM

if that is their aim ,I doubt if it will succeed,if Folk has a crap image changing the name will not alter anything ,what needs to be done is to change the image,that requires radical changes not cosmetic tinkering.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: CET
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 04:25 PM

Diane, judging by the title of the workshop, I doubt that any young musician with the slightest interest in the tradition would be welcome. That would tend to make their stuff "folk". It sounds like the event is likely to attract sensitive guitar players who just love singing about their feelings.

Encouraging young songwriters is a fine idea, but why promote the foul canard that "folk" is antithetical to originality and musicianship?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 05:17 PM

How many of the people who have contributed to this thread have read the magazine recently? It has changed beyond all recognition in the past few years and certainly now it is in full colour. This latest issue is the best I have seen in many years and I made a point of telling the Editor.

It would be easy to change the image of folk music. Needs money or it will happen gradually. Since there is little money in folk music - then it has to happen gradually.

As it happens this event is part of a whole day and is one hour. There is a parallel session going on at the same time with sword dancing, rapper dancing morris dancing and singing from the Askew Sisters.

Since you are keen on attending go to that instead.

And if no-one turns up and it is a disaster (one hour in day long event of 13.5 hours)then they wont do it again. If it is a great success they will.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM

Folkiedave

How many of the people who have contributed to this thread have read the magazine recently? It has changed beyond all recognition in the past few years and certainly now it is in full colour. This latest issue is the best I have seen in many years and I made a point of telling the Editor.

..and it's got a picture of me in the centre pages (along with a few other people). What more could ask?

(Sorry, but it's (probably the most fame I'll ever get.)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mo the caller
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 03:29 AM

I saw you Brian (along with a few others).

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 03:52 AM

If you are that concerned about the way that EFDSS is going, why not apply to be their new Chief Executive? The job description was included in the most recent magazine.

LTS

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:21 AM

Lizzie Cornish is not, unfortunately, the only knocker who's never been near C# House, still less have the faintest notion of what the EFDSS is trying to achieve, who is unable to draw a distinction between 'an ability to compose and play in the tradition' and a soft rock snigger-snogger.

Doesn't prevent her from placing foot firmly in capacious mouth though.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:31 AM

As a long time member of the Society I am in a position to warn people of the dangers of dissing an organisation with links to Sicily.

Our armed wing has strategies for removing those who oppose or mock the organisation that has crossed swords as its symbol. One strategy is to offer odd looking events. This is simply to provoke the kind of response we see above - people out themselves and we know where they live.

Their are people who have mocked us before and they have been "visited", they are now so nervous they have to tie their tankards to their clothing, adopt strange disguises involving beards and waist-coates and shiver and sweat at the sound of morris bells.

And, let me state the obvious - don't ever, ever misunderstand or underestimate the role and the work of Triple Agent Easby.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

"Dear" lizzie/ho ho/dear les,

Do piss off and update your MySpace blog.
Private Eye is waiting for the copy.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:57 AM

Now it is relatively inexpensive to produce CD's festival bookers get dozens of records from ARSS.

They mostly sing their teenage diaries.

No wonder she knocked them. If the EFDSS wants to give them an hour great. Doesn't make their teenage diaries set to music any better.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:11 AM

No, no you are getting it wrong with respect to DE. Just remember Garry and the sheep in 2 pints of lager and a packet of crisps

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:43 AM

Right...

As far as I know, this event, targeting young people, was dreamt up by Sam Lee. Sam is a great young singer who is currently employed by EFDSS (that's right, SINGER. If that tells you that the balance beteween song and dance is being redressed, good. And you only have to read any recent copy of the magazine to understand this as well).

Sam runs a folk club that targets young people: The Magpie's Nest, in Islington. He's had huge success with that, and if he thinks that a bit of gentle humour is the way to attract that, I for one am willing to trust him, because he KNOWS that audience.

That's aLL it is, folks: a bit of irony. And as has been pointed out, it is ONE event in a whole day of activity. AND there is an asterisk following the event's title, which reads: "not enforced". Geddit?


Blimey.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:43 AM

Can I add my tuppence worth, on the subject of the thread rather than on the subject of personal attacks?

I doubt C# House would attract many acoustic rock singer songwriters, just because of what it is and also because there are thousands of venues up and down the country where they can ply their trade - and they do! Here in Manchester you can't move for them. I would also see the term itself as a description rather than a put down - even though with a few very honourable exceptions most of those I've had the mispleasure to listen to have been pretty dreary.

C# House MAY attract some young songwriters who are rooted to some extent in tradition. There are no guarantees, obviously. The term folk free zone is a bit daft, though, for a folk event at a folk venue - may free-folk zone or even freak-folk zone would be more suitable and much more fun!

I'm not really detecting any animosity here to people writing original material (as long as it's any good) but I am detecting a lot of animosity to those people who don't like listening to maudlin, self indulgent 'sensitive singer songwriter' stuff. Personally, I blame that James friggin' Taylor. Or James Bl*nt.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM

Didn't see Ruth's post before putting mine up. Ignore me (apart from the bit about the two Jameses).

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:46 AM

"is the way to attract that AUDIENCE", my second par should have read.

As you were.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM

"'eceilidh ' ??"

ceilidhs for dyslexics? *LOL*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:28 AM

Wrong thread.
There was an extremely silly thread a while ago from an orthographically-challenged person who was uncertain how to spell it.

eceilidh: The vertical expression of the horizontal intent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:40 PM

"on the subject of the thread rather than on the subject of personal attacks?"

stay on the subject of the thread fer goodness sakes, instead of indulging in personal attacks, every thread I've entered today seems to contain at least one personal attack...NOW LAY OFF!!!!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM

Oi! Lay off, Countrylife. I don't do personal attacks, I was OBJECTING to them.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:00 PM

Who has 'personally attacked' you?
I see no indication of your presence in he thread until you seemed to require an explanation of eceilidh.
This I provided with a link.
On Friday 18th there is to be one (as previously mentioned) with Faustus.
As the subject of the thread is the EFDSS 75th and this event is part of it, of what, precisely, do you complain?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:33 PM

Wasps anyone?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 01:55 PM

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:21 AM

Lizzie Cornish is not, unfortunately, the only knocker who's never been near C# House, still less have the faintest notion of what the EFDSS is trying to achieve, who is unable to draw a distinction between 'an ability to compose and play in the tradition' and a soft rock snigger-snogger.

Doesn't prevent her from placing foot firmly in capacious mouth though.




Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Diane Easby - PM
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

"Dear" lizzie/ho ho/dear les,

Do piss off and update your MySpace blog.
Private Eye is waiting for the copy

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:10 PM

What is this? Quote Unquote (BBC R4 literary quiz)?

OK, I do (sadly) know the answer.
These were replies to madlizziecornish posting under a variety of aliases.
As the original posting no longer survive, they may be a little difficult for a SoH title to comprehend but I think they are a fairly clear indication of their irrelevancy to the topic.
Her MySpace blog remains non-updated and hopefully will remain so.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:21 PM

SoH title...ummmm...sorry is this some sort of code?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

Just noticed the button said this way up at the top:

Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me

Can't see why.
For the past several years Peter Paphides and that bloke Bob out of St Etienne has run Swaddling Songs at C# and you don't get much more 'wyrd' or 'acid' or (insert prefix of choice) than that.

I suppose they pay the Kennedy Hall hire fee and their money is as good as anybody's.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:31 PM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

ummmm....sounds like the EFDDS is being a bit more open-minded in their old age. God Bless'm

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:39 PM

Oi, I didn't say that. The button did and I was quoting him.
And I said Swadding Songs were hiring the hall from the EFDSS.
For money.
Don't go overboard with assumptions before comprehending the attribution.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

it was this bit I was replying to, nothing else...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 11:26 PM

I didn't read all the posts and someone might have said this already, but perhaps they want to keep rap music and Gregorian chants out of the folk stages and give people a place to come to do other stuff because othewise they would do it where people were not as interested. mg

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: johnadams
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:12 AM

There's no policy attached to this - and certainly no conspiracy.

As the nice lady from Ambridge said, it's just young Sam Lee trying out an idea.

Should be a good day out and I'm specially glad to have the Gloworms playing the evening dance. The dance energy amongst their young audience has to be seen to be believed.

Saturday November 10th

EFDSS 75th Anniversary National Gathering and AGM

Booking Office opens for Ticket Sales on September 17th

PROGRAMME

10.00 - 10.45
Dance workshop for children with Jane Pfaff and Jeremy Monson
Free of charge

11.00 - 12.30
Folkopedia non virtual meeting

11.00 - 12.00
Appalachian Running Set with Tony Foxworthy. Music by Brian and Jannette Stewart and Michael Blanford
Free for Camden residents and members

11.00 - 1.00
DVD show: The Return of Albert, Anniversary Awards Evening, Royal Albert Hall performances and other archival films
Free of charge

1.00 - 2.00
Young members' forum: FutureofFolk@EFDSS
Free of charge

2.00 - 3.30
AGM for members and invited guests

2.15 - 3.15
Children's workshop with Jane Pfaff and Jeremy Monson
Free of charge

4.00 - 4.30
Lecture by Mike Heaney: Finding Treasure in the Archives
Free of charge

4.45 - 7.45
National Gathering with the Monday Musicians' Band & MC Andrew Swaine
Gold Badge presentation to Mike Heaney
Spots from Adlington Folk Dancers: C# Minors: Eynsham Morris Men: Scarborough Sword Dancers with Cyril Swales: Stone Monkey: Hazel and Emily Askew.
£8.00. £5.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID

5.00 - 6.00
Folk Free Zone: an open mike session for young singers and songwriters

7.30 - 8.30
Rattle on the Stovepipe Evening Concert
with Dave Arthur, Pete Cooper and Dan Stewart, Peta Webb and Ken Hall
£5.00. £3.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID

8.30 onwards
Open sing, say and play session led by Dave Arthur, Pete Cooper and Dan Stewart with Peta Webb and Ken Hall, members of Stone Monkey and Eynsham Morris. Bring your instruments and voices
Free of charge

8.30 - 11.30
The 6th Gloworms Annual Ceilidh with caller Cat Kelly.
Every year the Gloworms organise a ceilidh to get together with all the people they've played for and danced with during the year.
This year they're at Cecil Sharp House, and a great night it promises to be. .
There will also be some tasty extras including a spot from Stone Monkey
£8.00. £5.00 for unwaged and holders of student ID
Presented in association with the EFDSS 75th Anniversary Celebrations and National Gathering

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:40 AM

Yes, the Gloworms Annual Ceilidh!
I was so busy banging on about the Faustus one that I forgot to mention this.
Sorry Gloworms.
Yes, so many reasons to go to C# and get your copy of Running Joak.
The old place is even geting blogged about nowadays.
It's only 35 years out of date when it claims I ran the 'restaurant'.
And we don't talk about that one occasion when I was let loose in the canteen. Do we?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,avrosimones
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

"Quite what the EFDSS is doing hosting a session billed as a folk free zone is beyond me"

I can see why there are doing this - it's obviously to get some people through the door who would ordinarily never go into C# house and maybe get them interested in folk music. As friendly as all the people are at the folk club, it is pretty intimidating for a young person to go in there and play.

At least they're trying to get new folks in the door -even though it might be a bit bizarre to be labeled a 'folk free zone'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Felicity Greenland
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 12:46 PM

I think it is excellent to provide this zone. Lots of people are interested in making their own music and in taking such opportunities to share that experience. This is a salient aspect of 'folk music'. Zone participants, if they don't already, may realise by such events that they are part of a great big unpredictable exciting continuum - a (dare I say it) tradition.
You can't expect people to appreciate the real nature of folk or traditional music/song if you say 'well, in folk clubs it's OK to sing a 19th century incest ballad or a 1970s revival song but it's not OK to express your own experience of life now'.
In the end only the best songs endure, so I think it's counterproductive to say EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff. The old stuff is, after all, the wheat remaining from the chaff at any given time.
'Now' is at least as important as 'the past' in the continuity of any art form or community activity.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:42 PM

But, Felicity, those of us who are a bit unhappy about this are not saying that "EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff". My concern is that having a "folk free zone" re-inforces and perpetuates the notion that "folk" is anything old and boring that the young things would not be interested in. I, for one, would hate any definition of Folk to exclude the "now".

Perhaps a "trad free zone" event would express it better?

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 01:52 PM

"trad free zone"

Absolutely not.
It's the sodding 'f'-word that's the problem.
It's now totally meaningless in its application to any old twee MOR crap produced by anyone who once lived next door to someone whose second cousin owned an acoustic instrument. Or an Aran jumper. Or a tankard. Or a new-age pebble.

Bin 'f*lk'. Trad is good. 'Young things' say so. Look at Shooting Roots.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM

the only problem I see is the problem being created by those who percieve there is a problem in the first place,the usual "let's take a bash at someone" school, that prevails here ..

countrylife as in I live in the country, not the title of some song favoured by Easby here... :-D

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

and on a more serious note...this

A Tribute to Lal Waterson at The Electric Proms

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:25 PM

"But, Felicity, those of us who are a bit unhappy about this are not saying that "EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff". My concern is that having a "folk free zone" re-inforces and perpetuates the notion that "folk" is anything old and boring that the young things would not be interested in. I, for one, would hate any definition of Folk to exclude the "now"."

For heaven's sake - it's a JOKE, people. It is immediately followed by an asterisk, with the word "Unenenforced".


Lighten up, willya?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:33 PM

I like Country Life as done by the Watersons. Well, I quite like it.
I dislike a song of the same name by one Steve Knightley because it is sloganising claptrap.
SK has subsequently denied that he had the traditional song in mind when he wrote his own with the same title.
As 50% of posts from 'countrylife' have been about SoH he's obviously a 'fan'.
The rest of them are trolling trash demonstrating solely that s/he has no comprehension of the context of the posts of others.
Yes, I've already flagged up the tribute to Lal Waterson.
Pity about the extraordinarily bad timing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:36 PM

Diane, I think part of the disagreement centres around whether one would like to retain the word "folk", but hope to stop re-inforcing the negative connotations (my standpoint and, I think, that of 'the button'), or whether the word is a lost cause (yours?). If "folk" is to go the EFDSS would need to re-name themselves!

I wasn't saying that "trad" is bad, just suggesting an alternative name for the session. Trad is great; it just doesn't encompass all of folk. As the session in question is one for "young singer/songwriters" this would seem to come well within most definitions of folk and outside of trad.

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:42 PM

EFDSS would need to re-name themselves

English Music Inc.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM

Ruth, joke it may be, but no asterisk or the word "Unenenforced" on the EFDSSs own website.

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

This is beginning to remind me of of when Alistair Campbell said of New Labour: 'We don't do god'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

I can see Felicity's point.
Some young musicians are going to be intimidated because what they do might not be "proper" folk (whateverTF that means...). Calling it "folk free" at least gives them carte blanche to just do their own thing, and of course some of it might be good.

It's a risk worth taking.

By the way, I thought Robbie Thomas' article in the current EDS on the "Ceilidh Club" was interesting and relevant. That's a regular high energy dance event at Cecil Sharp House, packed with youngsters, and Robbie took the opportunity to see what could be learned from it about getting young people into events at CSH.

Anahata

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:53 PM

Is it too late for New Folk? New English? New Dance? New Song? New Society?

Yes, Yes its New Folk and my name is not Tony

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:20 PM

"The rest of them are trolling trash demonstrating solely that s/he has no comprehension of the context of the posts of others"

I just play along dearie, that's all...I want serious imput...that goes on elsewhere...this a playround, that's all

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:47 PM

Frankly, encouraging whatever it is that appears to be being encouraged strikes me as about as helpful as planting weeds to see if it encourages the grass to grow, or fighting for peace or fucking for virginity.

And speaking of invasive weeds in the garden, what is the ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society hosting some form of Appalachian dancing?

And further, for those who seem to have missed the point, before you talk about the attributes of folk, go away and read the definition. If snigger snogwriter is "folk" then the no-folk zone is going to be pretty empty, no?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

Been explained many times on here already - but happy to do so again.

However http://www.efdss.org/history.htm
does it much better than me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:59 PM

"what is the ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society hosting some form of Appalachian dancing?"

sweet baby jesus. *bangs head against the wall*



"Memorandum of Association of the EFDSS

The objects for which the Society is established are:

a.   To preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music (including singing games), to make them known and to encourage the practice of them in their traditional forms.

b.   To promote the knowledge and practice of English folk dances, songs and music by means of dances, schools, classes, examinations, lectures, demonstrations, festivals and other like methods.

c.   To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

d.   In furtherance of the above objects to promote, and co-operate in, demonstrations, festivals and other like performances of folk dances, songs and music OF OTHETR COUNTRIES, whether held in England or elsewhere."

There are further, less relevant memoranda as well. Richard, if you'd like to join EFDSS perhaps you'll understand more about the society and its aims.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 04:33 PM

Besides, Appalachian flatfooting has plenty of links with English clog and step traditions.

A.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 04:49 PM

I learned it from Sue Coe.
So it must be Welsh . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

Sue Coe joined EFDSS at Sidmouth this year. Maybe Richard Bridge would like to ask her why EFDSS is relevant to Welsh people. Or maybe she's okay, as long as she doesn't do anything too Welsh at C#H.

Me, I'm gonna be playing my banjo and whistlin' Dixie while I do some Appalachian step dancing at the National Council meeting on Saturday. Yee hah.

Back to the topic.

Here's a thought: as this event is aimed at attracting NEW audiences, perhaps it's not really targeting the likes of us. So maybe it's a good thing that the marketing doesn't work for people who are already well-established folk enthusiasts. After all, the likes of us have got a whole day's worth of activity to entertain us (and given the intensity of feeling expressed by several posters, I trust we'll see you there?). This is one event - let's leave the youngsters to their fun. It'll be interesting to see what the takeup for the event is like on the day, and I'm sure this will help the society to plan future events.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:19 PM

well this is great publicity for EFDSS.
relating to the international side of EFDSS.I brought this up on a different thread about the EFDSS.,and was told as regards the song side ,that it wasnt really international.
There seems to be a certain chameleon character to the EFDSS,It is not international,then its international.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:29 PM

"Besides, Appalachian flatfooting has plenty of links with English clog and step traditions."

Exactly!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:29 PM

Dick, love, do keep up. That's not what you were told at all. Derek Schofield ACTUALLY said:

"Dick Miles and folkie dave are both correct in their statements about the purpose of the Folk Song Society. It was international in its outlook, and not specifically English. The Journal published a small number of articles about non-English song, including a significant issue about Gaelic song.
If anything, the dance side of EFDSS became more international in outlook (dance groups invited to the Albert Hall festivals, Sidmouth etc) and the song side became less international."

See? No chameleons. No contradictions with the memoranda as quoted above, either, which refer to the international aspects of DANCE, not song.

Now that we've got that all sorted, when can we expect your membership form?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Like the society or not...they're certainly getting some publicity here...*LOL*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Me..? I'll be at Cecil Sharp House for The Tribute to Lal Waterson and that'll be about it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:47 PM

Oh dear, Ruth,
Do I prove both you and Dick wrong when I tell you I sang a Welsh song at C#H less than a year ago? And no-one asked me to shut up because it wasn't English :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM

Well there we are, Mary. Another invasive weed in the EFDSS garden. You've set the English folk movement back 50 years. I just hope you're pleased with yourself.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:52 PM

Hell I have never been in such distinguished company.....

Well almost never.......

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:53 PM

Oh dear,
The lily and the pink AND the flamin' daffodil.
Bring on the Tumbleweed . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

I don't have a problem with Ms Humphreys singing in Welsh at Cecil Sharp House...or anywhere else come to that...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:31 PM

Phew!
Well, that's a relief, look you!
Mary :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

Surely the 19th Century incest and baby murdering ballads are the result of some 19th Century navel gazing and 'Ah poor me' diary-singing?

LTS

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

Me Dad's from Cardiff, Mary:-)...that's why I have no problem with the Welsh going at it at C. Sharp.... *LOL*

The Cecil Sharp Eisteddfod.... now that'll stir up the hen house.....!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:38 PM

Now that's an interesting take on it, Liz.....:-\

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:59 PM

teenagers must have had more interesting diaries in those days!

Eeeeh, we 'ad to mek us own fun...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:15 AM

The American dance referred to appears to be performance in its own right, not in furtherance of the objects 1 and 2 of the memorandum, and so outside those cited objects. Or maybe there is a Bell Houses v City Wall clause somewhere (eg "to do anything else that the directors in their discretion see fit")?

Certainly I see no use in promoting American dance, there's too much of the damned stuff everywhere at festivals, and like Japanese Knotweed it seems to grow everywhere and be hard to eradicate. And there are too many banjos.

I also don't like Morris sides using Irish and American music to dance English dance to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:25 AM

Apart from that, you are perfectly happy with it then?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM

Well I don't like Irish tune books and sites (especially thesession.org) laying claim to every tune there is whether from someone else's tradition or of known composer as 'Irish trad', but they do.

Anyway, what's this conclusive proof you have that Morris is an 'English' dance? Is this the definitive answer we have all been waiting for? Do tell.

PS Richard you surely can't be serious in including The Princess Royal in your proposed ban on 'Irish' tunes being used for English dance? I think you are just hatching a plot to marginalise dance altogether . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:37 AM

We (Sheffield City Morris) not only dance dances that are made up, we dance morris to (amongst other things) the Coronation St. signature tune and Beethoven's 9th. I didn't realise we were restricted to ...........well what are we restricted to Richard?

Can I suggest you go back to bed and get out on the other side?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:39 AM

There was of course once far too much American dance in the EFDSS social dance scene, where it really was in danger of obliterating English dance. Then there was the Cajun craze...
A social dance band still has to be able to play a few American reels.
I think I've found some English substitutes that will work, but we digress...

Oh, and I've seen that site where they're arguing about whether "Jump at the Sun" is French or Irish!

A.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:43 AM

Hmmmm, Mr Kirkpatrick needs the PRS. doesn't he?
(Oops, wrong thread!).

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Dick The Box
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:25 AM

Hmmmm. Interesting thread.

Surely the point is that EFDSS is actually trying to do something?

Doing stuff rather doing nothing has got to be good in my book. If you like what they are doing then support it. If you don't like it then either ignore it, or get in there and change it from inside.

I feel for those running EFDSS - being the subject of continual sniping whatever they try to do is very demoralising and wearing. Why don't folks just ignore all those emotive words like 'English', 'Folk', 'Dance' and 'Song' - it only stirs up trouble. Look at what they are trying to do overall. Are they trying to preserve and promote at least some of the music we all love? I think the answer is 'Yes', so more power to their elbow.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:32 AM

EFDSS has long involved display dance from other countries in its activities. As Derek pointed out in the quote I posted earlier, look at the Albert Hall festivals and Sidmouth, for a start.

I'm not a big fan of exclusivity and cultural purism in any context, Richard. I don't think that the Appalachian event represents a disproportionate level of "foreignness" within the context of the full day's activity...do you?

By the way, you seem quite concerned about the Society fulfilling its remits. Just out of interest, are you a member?

I only ask, because on Mudcat I find the most fascinating phenomenon: the people most concerned about EFDSS doing what it ought to, and most ready to hold it to account, are not actually members themselves.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:33 AM

To Dick the Box: Thank you, and well said.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:50 AM

Ruth,
I wont be joining as I have Two other organisations, Comhaltas ,and The International Concertina Association to whom I make an annual contribution.
I do find it illogical that the dance side is international and the song side isnt[I think EFDSS are missing an oppurtunity],but as Dick The Box says, the Society is still trying to do something with limited funds,Their financial predicament is of their own making,but I hope they can reverse this and wish them all the best with their future .
there are several reasons why I consider Comhaltas higher priority than EFDSS,
1.I live in Ireland,2,In England they offer music lessons in many different regions,which EFDSS unfortunately do not.
Finally I did offer 200 Sterling for a song competition prize,the offer was not taken up.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:16 AM

I cannot remember precisely what happened to your offer but wasn't it deemed inappropriate for a whole host of reasons?

Anyway since you have £200.00 to spare - why not join the society - and £200.00 will give you about eight years subscriptions.

Then you can make your suggestions from within the society.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:18 AM

Since I'm the one who started this thread (sweet Jesus, what have I done?), just to clarify that I am indeed a member of the EFDSS.

Some posts on this thread have put my mind at rest to an extent, and as far as I can make out "Folk Free Zone" is meant to be ironic. Those crazy young people, eh? ;-)

Personally I don't use the "f" word when talking about the music anyway.

the button
37 years old, and feeling every second. Heh.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:32 AM

Dave .
I made the offer specifically to encourage song,I do not want my money to be wasted on dance,or the white elephant of a building called CecilSharp house,you may not agree with me, but that is my right, to donate any money I have ,how I wish.
Having said that,Iwish all the volunteers and staff at CecilSharp house all the best of luck,and hope they are successful in their aims.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:35 AM

Dick Miles,

I think you're interpreting the information you've been given quite selectively. The situation regarding international dance and song is largely historical, and doesn't necessarily reflect the Society's direction in years to come, particularly as it needs to demonstrate an engagement with the very neighbourhood where it lives, let alone the wider country.

I understand that Comhaltas is the more relevant organisation for you, as you live in Ireland. What I don't understand is why you seem to jump on the EFDSS-bashing bandwagon at every opportunity.

I know you think we ought to be taking on board what is, in your opinion, Comhaltas's good practice, because you see them as a more successful organisation. Without revisiting old discussions, there are many reasons why this might arguably be the case, which are largely cultural and financial. I say "arguably" advisedly, because IMHO Comhaltas has made as many mistakes as it's had successes, and doesn't seem, to an outsider, to be the most dynamic and forward-thinking organisation for the 21st century. It's not the organisation I'd base my own model for the future upon, in any case.

What I hope is going to take place within EFDSS within the next few years is rather more radical, to be perfectly frank. I want to be part of an organisation that can genuinely claim to be promoting folk dance and song in England, to be relevant across generations and regions, and which has a significant role to play in making the folk genre as relevant and accessible as possible.

It's a big hill to climb, as I think anyone within the Society would agree. But some incredibly exciting things have been happening recently, with large-scale grants being achieved and a strategy being implemented which makes the organisation far more fit for purpose.

One of the weays of achieving this change is working woth people like Sam Lee, who has come up with the Folk Free Zone idea. Sam's the one who's been bringing films from the VWML around to festivals this summer, so that more people have access to the amazing footage housed in the archives. I think we're really lucky to be working with people like Sam, who brings energy, enthusiasm and a whole network of great young contacts to the Society. Yes, he'll take some risks. They may succeed, they may fail; but as Dick the Box said, isn't it exciting to see the Society DOING SOMETHING? To see it moving away from the well-worn path it's been treading for a very long time and trying new things? Well, I think so, anyway.

There will always be gainsayers, and I can accept that. And not evetryone is going to approve of every event held at C#H. But if people really have the Society's best interests at heart, perhaps it's best to actually see what happens as a result of some of these intitiatives, rather than tearing them down before they've even taken place.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:50 AM

Thanks Ruth


Really well put

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:02 AM

Though I can't sing or play an instrument properly and my dancing is largely limited to the 'Abba two-step' (which I don't believe is a recognised form), I joined the EFDSS recently because I think they're doing an excellent job at what they do and are working hard to be a vibrant and relevant organisation and I wanted to support them in this. And I like the magazine.

Now that it has been explained that the folk-free zone is an ironic thing (though I still wish they had a freak-folk zone) I think why not go for it? If it brings people in who 1) have a bit of fun doing what they're doing and 2) check out some of the other stuff going on and even like it, it will have been worthwhile. Even if neither these things happen it doesn't particularly matter. Not everyone gets to listen to and like traditional music from the off - I certainly didn't. It took quite a few goes at listening before it started to make sense to me - it felt very alien to my 'rock orientated' ears. It also took the shedding of quite a few assumptions, preconceptions and prejudices before I was prepared to drop the air of faint embarrassment about liking it (you know, keeping the Watersons CDs in the bottom of my underpants drawer, that kind of thing...). Meanwhile, I suspect some people want to keep the EDFSS in a box marked 'bunch of irrelevant fuddy-duddies' and then possibly get upset when the EFDSS fails to live up to preconceptions by attempting something that is neither fuddy nor particularly duddy.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:04 AM

Great post, Ruth. I feel quite shaken and stirred!

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:14 AM

Great Nigel


I had the same type of experience and, for me, it wasn't until I experienced the music live (it was actually Waterson:Carthy) that I really "got it".

I think there are many who would really feel quite "ruffled" if the EFDSS started a quite radical move and took on a championing and leadership role. I really hope they do it. And also congrats for becoming a member too.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:00 AM

Ruth,I have looked through my posts and apart from calling them chameleon like[very mild criticism],I dont see any EFDSS bashing.
I would like to see them be able to make a bigger contribution which was why I offered money for a specific purpose,that offer still stands, but I have not had the courtesy of a reply.
This sort of thing is known as sponsorship,last year I was Involved with the Ballydehob Jazz festival,we managed to raise thousands of pounds in sponsorship,thus ensuring a successful festival..Ihave noticed other festivals[Lancaster Maritime Festival],havein the past obtained money from sponsors,I believe Louis Killen was sponsored by Alan Bell,and there were other sponsors too.North West Water,Virgin Trains, you may of course have already considered sponsorship.
Good luck anyway with your attempts to turn things round.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:23 AM

The EFDSS will take a subscription from anybody, the more bonkers the applicant the better.
They did, after all, start the Sidmouth Festival.
Long before the above guest had heard of it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:46 AM

Oops . . . by which I didn't actually mean you, Dick, but the Cornish Pasty that the passing seagull swooped and snatched away.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 09:29 AM

I am a member too. Was for many years and rejoined about a year ago.

Anyone who has seen the magazine recently - and let's praise the last two editors, will notice a wind of change going through the society. The younger people on the National Council - professional organisers like Joan Crump, people with a really strong folk music background like Gordon Jones, academics like John Adams etc etc. are beginning to make a difference. It isn't easy and I have no doubts more mistakes will be made but if they are made in a spirit of co-operation then they are unlikely to be disastrous.

Dick, laudable as the prize is - who will organise the contest, who will judge it and set the parameters (here we go again - what is folk?) how will it be organised, who will look after the publicity, where will it be held and so on? It is just not a simple as putting £200.00 into someone's hands. By its nature it comes with baggage.

You can spend your money how you like Dick - but your knowledge, opinions and expertise via a subscription would be of much more use.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:02 PM

The Ballad of Cecil Sharp House (Trad. Arr.)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:47 PM

I beg to differ, Dave,
a song writing competion was featured at the Cheltenham folk festival last year,
Saltburn festival organised,a traditional singing competition ,this year.
Scarborough Seafest also organised a songwriting competition this year.
clearly its not as fraught with obstacles as you imagine.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 12:51 PM

EFDSS is not a festival.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:06 PM

When the EFDSS used to run Sidmouth, Whitby and Keele/Loughborough festivals, there was usually some sort of competive element for those who wanted to.
Then it was what you did and indeed Comhaltas used to use C#H as a venue to run its own competitions.
Nowadays the ethos is that no child should leave the party without a prize.
I really couldn't care less either way.
If there is a demand to compete then those who wish to should have a platform to do so.
It is, a means of bringing out the best in certain, though not all, musicians.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:17 PM

Now we haven't got the NATS any more, surely someone should run its competition.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 01:28 PM

"Now we haven't got the NATS any more, surely someone should run its competition"

I'm sure the EFDSS would be glad to oblige *LOL*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM

I agree with you Diane,it is not ideal,but I think it is better than not having them .
IS

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM

The songwriting competition at Cheltenham festival Involved EFDSS,to some extent.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:30 PM

Dick, this is your own personal hobby horse. I'd prefer not to have to have this conversation yet again, because it's beginning to feel like Groundhog Day.

If you feel that the way for EFDSS to bring itself into the 21st century and become a relevant, accessible and regionally important organisation is for it to offer £200 singing competitions (which you would judge), lovely. Join EFDSS. Find a substantial group of paid-up members who feel the same. Then lobby National Council.

In all the festivals I attended this summer, not to mention a couple of events at Cecil Sharp House this year, not one existing member approached me and said, "Do you know what would turn this organisation around, and be a real breath of fresh air? Competitions." Until they do, can we just drop this whole idea for the red herring it is?

EDFSS is NOT Comhaltas. Many of us are quite happy about that.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:34 PM

English traditional music doesn't lend itself as easily to competitions as Irish music anyway, since the aim of the game isn't to play as fast as possible.

*runs away*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:39 PM

No it's more a case of being 'in' with the judge/s, in the English version.
Giok

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 02:40 PM

It's the English way.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:08 PM

"EDFSS is NOT Comhaltas"

EFDSS isn't much of anything really

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:15 PM

can that be the same countrylife who earlier said:

"the only problem I see is the problem being created by those who percieve there is a problem in the first place,the usual "let's take a bash at someone" school, that prevails here .."

Surely not.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:19 PM

EFDSS isn't a problem...like I said, it not much of anything.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 03:37 PM

The EFDSS's premises houses the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, the most important repository of traditional music and song in the UK. Perhaps", Guest,countrylife, you might like to modify your opinion of it being "not much of anything".

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

I'm pretty sure countrylife's an ex-pat, Mary. Maybe he doesn't realise what a valuable resource the library is, as he hasn't lived in the UK for a long time. Mind you, it means he's not necessarily going to be the most informed critic of today's EFDSS, either...

Countrylife, if you ever get back over to these shores, you should pay a visit to the VWML. It's a real treasure trove. And if you ever were to come back, and had time to pay a visit to Cecil Sharp House, you might be surprised at what you find. Robbie Thomas has done a great piece in the new EDS magazine about The Ceilidh Club there, and the diverse audiences they're attracting. It's all good news.

Some stuff has to be experienced firsthand, I think, rather than from in front of a computer screen thousands of miles away.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:33 AM

Ruth,no it is not a personal hobby horse.
please answer this question,were EFDSS involved in the songwriting competition at Cheltenham festival,and what was their involvement.
I think Competitions are far from perfect,but Comhaltas amongst others[Glor na gael,Saltburn festival,Scarborough Sea Fest,Cheltenham Festival the GAA scor]have shown that overall they help to promote both traditional and contemporary folk song and dance.
Comhaltas have also shown that examinations,can provide a focus for traditional musicians,and are an alternative for children and adults who are not so competitive minded.,
you are right there are lotsof other things EFDSS could be doing/and are starting to do that are also important.
When the VWML is available on our computer screens[or is it now? ]it will not be important whether it is housed in london ,the Midlands,or Much Binding in the Marsh.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:54 AM

Dick, yes it is: VWML Online

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:56 AM

Cheltenham's songwriting competition was a special event for the 75th anniversary celebrations.

You may think that Comhaltas has proved the point that you make; I don't. I think these competitions have historically helped to promote very prescriptive and restrictive interpretations of folk song and dance. It's not something that, personally, I'd like to see EFDSS pursuing as a way forward.

There is an exciting strategy in place for the future of EFDSS. I'm afraid that Comhaltas-style competitions pay no major part, so relentlessly pursuing this issue is of no real consequence, Dick. It's not going to happen.

Re VWML: When is the new Irish folk centre in Dublin, recently opened and funded by millions of pounds, planning to publish on-line its entire archive? I shouldn't think it'll be any time soon, as it's a massive and vastly expensive task. VWML, which enjoys far less public support, therefore has some consideranble time to wait before it is likely to be in such an enviable position. Any help you'd like to give to help this happen would be greatly appreciated, I'm sure - but it's going to take a lot more than 200 quid.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 04:58 AM

Diane, that's just the index; I think Dick wants all of the publications, papers, films and ephemera available at the click of a mouse.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:07 AM

Ah well.
We all want stuff we can't have. But,

Wishing's for fools but dreams are for outlaws.

Just off to join Dick Gaughan in Sherwood Forest . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:21 AM

Just driving up there, funnily enough.

See you at the Major Oak!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:30 AM

yes, Ruth you are right about Comhaltas and interpretation,
But Comhaltas was formed to stop the music from dying out,I agree they have changed the music,but they have also acheived their aim ,the music is now flourishing ,and Comhaltas have and still are playing a major part.,not just with competitions,but the spin offs,the amount people attending the Tullamore [National]Fleadh. 90 per cent were not competitors.
Music changes anyway,That is a sign of a living tradition,the changes may not always be successful or to my taste,Folk Rock,but it is a sign of health that people are doing it.
VWML is on line, why does it have to be housed IN london.,why does CSH have to remain where it is.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:31 AM

Dick, I'd like to take issue with two of the events you mention.

On of the complaints about the Scarborough SeaFest - which the organiser agreed with - was lack of publicity - so that wasn't a great success.

But mentioning Glor na nGael for comparison is simply breathtaking.

It is a language competition.

It is world-wide "Every continent except Africa" it says on its website.

It has seven full-time staff.

It has 150,000 Euros worth of prizes.

It is funded by the state probably with an EC grant because of the EC's interest in promoting minority languages (I am in favour of that by the way).

It has a regionally and internationally-based committee organisations which is the basis of its structure. These have carefully defined structures, and targets. See below.

Here are the basics:

Below are the criteria for groups that are taking part in the Glór na nGael competition. Also you will see the conditions for moving from level to level.

    * The basic need to be part of the competition is that Glór na nGael committees are representative to their public, regular meetings are held, minutes are kept, and an annual general meeting should be held to create a plan / list of responsibilities.

Then there are four more carefully defined levels.

Are you really suggesting this would work with folk music - however defined?

Dick you can come on here and say what you like and put your money where you want to - but if you spout nonsense then you may just feel the world is picking on you.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:32 AM

"Dick wants all of the publications, papers, films and ephemera available at the click of a mouse."
Why - does Comhaltas have something like that?

Anahata

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:54 AM

That's exactly my point, Anahata. The new Irish folk centre, with its vast funding resources, doesn't even provide this (do correct me if I'm wrong, Dick). It may do in future, but to expect such a thing from VWML is ridiculous at this stage, if you realise how much time and money must be involved.

So now we're onto C#H, London, yadda yadda. Again.

Where would you like it to be housed for convenience, Dick? Connemara?

I suggest, once again, that if these issues are so important to you, you should join EFDSS. Then your ciritcisms could be taken seriously. As it is, you are a non-member of a membership society, asking that society to justify basic aspectsd of its existence. With the greatest of respect, it actually owes you no explanations or justifications.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:06 AM

Dave,It is you that is talking nonsense,
Glor na Gael
Do have and have had music competitions,I have been asked to judge on at least two occasions.,get your facts right.
Ruth,The centre in dublin,is as far as I know nothing to do with Comhaltas.,I believe it is Nicolas Carolan,and I think Jim Carroll has helped him .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:27 AM

Glor na Gael
Do have and have had music competitions,I have been asked to judge on at least two occasions.,get your facts right.

Right Dick - tell us which national Glor na nGael competition you were asked to judge. What I suspect you were asked to judge was a local competition organised by a local committee of Glor na nGael as a fund raiser. They probably organise dances and beetle drives too.

The prizes nationally are given to the committees which I first mentioned. It's about the Irish language and its promotion. Of course that may include the music but it's about the Irish language. Comhaltas does the music and they also get massive state funding.

As for the Irish Traditional Music Archive its next big project is to put its catalogue on line.

I suspect it will be a long time before the material gets on line.

But answer me this question Dick, do you think that Glor Na nGael committee structure would work for folk music in England or does it depend on what you mean by folk music?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:49 AM

Ah John - you made the standard mistake of assuming Lizzie knew what she was talking about.

Why do you do it Lizzie? And why aren't you in Canada?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:23 AM

Ruth,it is quicker for me to get to London, than it is for me to go to Connemara.
Dave you accused me of talking nonsense,Iam not.,but you are
I said that Glor na gael organised competitions.
The standard was very high,It was organised according to different age groups ,there were competitions,for violin, singing, whistle,and an overall musician of the day.
Please dont insult the participants,by comparing it to a beetle drive,you were not there ,I was,and I repeat the standard was high.
But then if you have been to Ireland youwould know that the standard of playing amongst children is very high,thanks to the competition and examination system and the efforts of teachers like myself.
Scarborough Sea fest was very well attended,again I was there you were not.
I cant talk about the competition at Saltburn festival[FredJordan memorial]for traditional singing,ButIunderstand from reading on MUDCAT it was successful,Ihope the Cheltenham festival competition was successful,John Adams should know.
The Comhaltas and GAA SCOR competitions are also successful and popular.
Comhaltas GAA SCOR and Glor na Gael,all organise music competitions,all three of them have competitions in the irish language.
I do think the Comhaltas music structure would work for England, examinations are already working successfully[but as far asIknow EFDSS has no input again].
Comhaltas are also teaching music in many different areas of England,are the EFDSS? .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:25 AM

Oh no...
I was very interested in this thread, with very cogent points put (sometimes forcefully!) by all the contributors, and then Lizzie sticks her nose in.
No point in reading further, sadly

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:56 AM

Glor na nGael is a national organisation for the Irish language.

Every year Glór na nGael award more than €150,000 worth of prizes to committees from around the country. This is done through the means of a public competition where partnership of local groups and the promotion of the Irish language are the main focus. Most committes work on a voluntary basis and the others provide employment for people with the Irish language in this country. Each committee is doing excellent work, from setting up naíscoileanna and gaelscoileanna to organising events through the Irish language in the areas that they are living. From the amount of work that these committees have done, it is clear that they have true vision and respect for the development of the language and the language itself. Glór na nGael is extremely pleased with the excellent work that these committees are doing.
                           
                                 Taken from the Glor na ngael website.

Here is how it works Dick.

Do you seriously believe that this committee structure would work for folk music in England Dick?

As for the EFDSS teaching music, no they don't do it. So clearly the dozens of young people coming into folk music are doing it via osmosis.

Or perhaps Folk Arts England had something to do with it?

http://www.folkarts-england.org/folk%20dev.htm

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 07:57 AM

S'alright Ralphie, she has gone.......

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:19 AM

Thanks for that Dave.
Sadly, only gone temporarily methinks!!
Regards R

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:21 AM

This sort of thing is known as sponsorship,last year I was involved with the Ballydehob Jazz festival,we managed to raise thousands of pounds in sponsorship,thus ensuring a successful festival.

So the answer is clear. When it comes to festival sponsorship stick to jazz Dick, something where your input is appreciated and stay away from traditional music where it clearly isn't?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 08:34 AM

Dave, my input to traditional music is appreciated by many people,you may not appreciate my offering to sponsor traditional music,but you only speak for yourself.
Many people are also being taught music by Comhaltas.
Meanwhile The teaching of English traditional music is being taken on by others other than the EFDSS.
EFDSS need to be careful or they may become of no importance in the promotion of English Folk Dance and Song.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:06 AM

By and large I think what EFDSS does is useful and meritorious, and I am glad to see a respected academic there who can see off all this "horse" nonsense. Equally, for a national archive there is only one sensible place - the national capital city, and while C#House may have problems (being expensive to run and hard to get to to start with) it would be insanity to get rid of an appreciating asset.

Offering a prize for a songwriting competition is not promotion of folk music - by definition.

But one for the interpretation of folk song and music (preferably not limited to formaldhyde copying of previous interpretations, so open to full on rock bands, synth programmers, - imagine a techno version of "Famous Flower of Serving Men" wot? - and I'm sure with a litle time I could produce a rap version of Matty Groves - and maybe lesser innovations like altered melodies or harmonies or chord sequences too) would surely assist the renovation of folk, and rebut those who refuse to use a perfectly useful definition and name that run parallel to other branches of scholarship in the folk arts.

What I don't see the point of is invading folk with things that are not (or "English" with things that are not English) - and which actively contribute to the marginalisation and possibly demise of folk (or English) song music and dance. Should photographers be able to compete in a painting competition? They can of course exhibit in an art exhibition.

Non-folk music may be just as good as folk music (etc etc) but folk music needs to be encouraged to survive. We strive to keep the world's genetic inheritance as complete as possible. We seek to preserve rare birds and reintroduce breeds to their former habitat. We don't do that by exposing them to tooth and claw competition until they are strong enough and numerous enough to survive with lesser help. If the Marsupial Wolf were not extinct, would you put the last survivor in with a pack of North American Timber wolves in the hope that they would become interested in it?

What folk music and other folk arts need are funding - just imagine what could be done with the subsidies opera companies get - and a government that does not discriminate against the natural habitat of folk music by making folk music in pubs licenseable yet megawatt MTV exempt from control.

What sells is sex. How about getting Simon Cowell to manufacture boy and girl electric folk bands - put on a pussycat dolls version of ceilidhs, break out. Don't surrender the citadel to the invaders.

Rant over, gone to calm down now.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 10:23 AM

"What sells is sex"
Read the article by Robbie H Thomas in EDS on the Ceilidh Club at C# house. Not run by the EFDSS, but it's getting the young punters in.
Apparently it's listed in some places as a "singles" event.

A.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 12:08 PM

Richard, I wholeheartedly agree that the preservation and proliferation of English dance and song should be EFDSS's first priority. However, there are two additional issues to consider: firstly, the fact that there has historically been an attempt to engage with and celebrate the folk cultures of other countries, especially dance. That's an important legacy, and one that shouldn't be lost or forgotten.

Secondly, there is the fact that England is a culturally diverse society. Part of EFDSS's role in future will invitably
be to help people living in England - regardless of their cultural heritage - to engage with England's indigenous song, music and dance, and also to look for opportunities for cultural interchange.

I don't think a culturally purist approach is particularly helpful, given this context. I also don't think the inclusion of one Appalachian dance event in a whole day of activity equates to your wolf analogy. It is only one event. It is not swamping or undermining the focus of the day.

You still haven't told us whether you're a member...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:17 PM

What sells is sex. How about getting Simon Cowell to manufacture boy and girl electric folk bands - put on a pussycat dolls version of ceilidhs, break out.

Since Ruth - whose judgement I trust implicitly - has done you the honour of treating what you wrote seriously, I might as well do the same, but I still think the stuff about Simon Cowell is a wind-up.

You really need to get out more. Seen Glorystrokes? The name might give you a clue!
Catch them here

Richard I seem to remember that you said in an earlier thread this year, you didn't go to festivals much, and that you didn't go to concerts much. You see that is the problem with doing that. You haven't seen any of the sexy bands that play nowadays. Four years ago at Sidmouth we had screams from a youngish audience for a youngish group as the dry ice spewed out and the sound system started booming in the late night extra. The attraction? Bryony Griffiths and Black Swan Rapper.

Ever heard young women about the attractions of Jon Boden? Or Bellowhead? I was with a couple of twenty year-olds last weekend (at their parents party I hasten to add) and one was so jealous of the other because the first one had seen him in the street!! Saul Rose seems particularly attractive to younger women or even slightly older women for that matter especially those around 40.

There was knicker-throwing at the jig competition at Sidmouth.Yes, really there was. Getting like a Tom Jones concert that jig-competition. And they weren't even the winners.

But if you just go to sessions you are starting at a disadvantage. It doesn't happen much in sessions so perhaps you have been missing things.

Buy a festival ticket Richard, you might be surprised at what goes on in the world of folk!! But from what you write you are at a great disadvantage - you are down south. It all happens up here once you get to Loughborough and further north.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM

"Since Ruth - whose judgement I trust implicitly - has done you the honour of treating what you wrote seriously, I might as well do the same, but I still think the stuff about Simon Cowell is a wind-up."

I did ignore that bit, Dave. :)

My daughter is 13 - the other day I found her e-mailing some of my daft Towersey photos of Saul Rose (including one in his Demon Barbie bikini and pink wig) to one of her school friends - turns out this girl really fancies him! I found this hilarious. And no, I haven't told Saul.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: BB
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:35 PM

Ah, I remember the days when Preston Royal used to really get me going... And one or two singers, too.

Sexy folk ain't a new thing - it's just a new generation.

Barbara

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

'EFDSS need to be careful or they may become of no importance in the promotion of English Folk Dance and Song'

Roll Over Cecil Sharp
recorded by the Acoustic Light Orchestra

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 13 Sep 07 - 06:08 PM

Ah, I remember the days when Preston Royal used to really get me going... And one or two singers, too.

The mind boggles Barbara - it took ALL of Preston Royale but only one or two singers? :-)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: BB
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:02 PM

At a time, Dave, at a time! (I don't think we'd better take this any further!)

Barbara