EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:14 AM

Great Nigel


I had the same type of experience and, for me, it wasn't until I experienced the music live (it was actually Waterson:Carthy) that I really "got it".

I think there are many who would really feel quite "ruffled" if the EFDSS started a quite radical move and took on a championing and leadership role. I really hope they do it. And also congrats for becoming a member too.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:04 AM

Great post, Ruth. I feel quite shaken and stirred!

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 07:02 AM

Though I can't sing or play an instrument properly and my dancing is largely limited to the 'Abba two-step' (which I don't believe is a recognised form), I joined the EFDSS recently because I think they're doing an excellent job at what they do and are working hard to be a vibrant and relevant organisation and I wanted to support them in this. And I like the magazine.

Now that it has been explained that the folk-free zone is an ironic thing (though I still wish they had a freak-folk zone) I think why not go for it? If it brings people in who 1) have a bit of fun doing what they're doing and 2) check out some of the other stuff going on and even like it, it will have been worthwhile. Even if neither these things happen it doesn't particularly matter. Not everyone gets to listen to and like traditional music from the off - I certainly didn't. It took quite a few goes at listening before it started to make sense to me - it felt very alien to my 'rock orientated' ears. It also took the shedding of quite a few assumptions, preconceptions and prejudices before I was prepared to drop the air of faint embarrassment about liking it (you know, keeping the Watersons CDs in the bottom of my underpants drawer, that kind of thing...). Meanwhile, I suspect some people want to keep the EDFSS in a box marked 'bunch of irrelevant fuddy-duddies' and then possibly get upset when the EFDSS fails to live up to preconceptions by attempting something that is neither fuddy nor particularly duddy.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:50 AM

Thanks Ruth


Really well put

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:35 AM

Dick Miles,

I think you're interpreting the information you've been given quite selectively. The situation regarding international dance and song is largely historical, and doesn't necessarily reflect the Society's direction in years to come, particularly as it needs to demonstrate an engagement with the very neighbourhood where it lives, let alone the wider country.

I understand that Comhaltas is the more relevant organisation for you, as you live in Ireland. What I don't understand is why you seem to jump on the EFDSS-bashing bandwagon at every opportunity.

I know you think we ought to be taking on board what is, in your opinion, Comhaltas's good practice, because you see them as a more successful organisation. Without revisiting old discussions, there are many reasons why this might arguably be the case, which are largely cultural and financial. I say "arguably" advisedly, because IMHO Comhaltas has made as many mistakes as it's had successes, and doesn't seem, to an outsider, to be the most dynamic and forward-thinking organisation for the 21st century. It's not the organisation I'd base my own model for the future upon, in any case.

What I hope is going to take place within EFDSS within the next few years is rather more radical, to be perfectly frank. I want to be part of an organisation that can genuinely claim to be promoting folk dance and song in England, to be relevant across generations and regions, and which has a significant role to play in making the folk genre as relevant and accessible as possible.

It's a big hill to climb, as I think anyone within the Society would agree. But some incredibly exciting things have been happening recently, with large-scale grants being achieved and a strategy being implemented which makes the organisation far more fit for purpose.

One of the weays of achieving this change is working woth people like Sam Lee, who has come up with the Folk Free Zone idea. Sam's the one who's been bringing films from the VWML around to festivals this summer, so that more people have access to the amazing footage housed in the archives. I think we're really lucky to be working with people like Sam, who brings energy, enthusiasm and a whole network of great young contacts to the Society. Yes, he'll take some risks. They may succeed, they may fail; but as Dick the Box said, isn't it exciting to see the Society DOING SOMETHING? To see it moving away from the well-worn path it's been treading for a very long time and trying new things? Well, I think so, anyway.

There will always be gainsayers, and I can accept that. And not evetryone is going to approve of every event held at C#H. But if people really have the Society's best interests at heart, perhaps it's best to actually see what happens as a result of some of these intitiatives, rather than tearing them down before they've even taken place.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:32 AM

Dave .
I made the offer specifically to encourage song,I do not want my money to be wasted on dance,or the white elephant of a building called CecilSharp house,you may not agree with me, but that is my right, to donate any money I have ,how I wish.
Having said that,Iwish all the volunteers and staff at CecilSharp house all the best of luck,and hope they are successful in their aims.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: the button
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:18 AM

Since I'm the one who started this thread (sweet Jesus, what have I done?), just to clarify that I am indeed a member of the EFDSS.

Some posts on this thread have put my mind at rest to an extent, and as far as I can make out "Folk Free Zone" is meant to be ironic. Those crazy young people, eh? ;-)

Personally I don't use the "f" word when talking about the music anyway.

the button
37 years old, and feeling every second. Heh.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 06:16 AM

I cannot remember precisely what happened to your offer but wasn't it deemed inappropriate for a whole host of reasons?

Anyway since you have £200.00 to spare - why not join the society - and £200.00 will give you about eight years subscriptions.

Then you can make your suggestions from within the society.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:50 AM

Ruth,
I wont be joining as I have Two other organisations, Comhaltas ,and The International Concertina Association to whom I make an annual contribution.
I do find it illogical that the dance side is international and the song side isnt[I think EFDSS are missing an oppurtunity],but as Dick The Box says, the Society is still trying to do something with limited funds,Their financial predicament is of their own making,but I hope they can reverse this and wish them all the best with their future .
there are several reasons why I consider Comhaltas higher priority than EFDSS,
1.I live in Ireland,2,In England they offer music lessons in many different regions,which EFDSS unfortunately do not.
Finally I did offer 200 Sterling for a song competition prize,the offer was not taken up.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:33 AM

To Dick the Box: Thank you, and well said.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:32 AM

EFDSS has long involved display dance from other countries in its activities. As Derek pointed out in the quote I posted earlier, look at the Albert Hall festivals and Sidmouth, for a start.

I'm not a big fan of exclusivity and cultural purism in any context, Richard. I don't think that the Appalachian event represents a disproportionate level of "foreignness" within the context of the full day's activity...do you?

By the way, you seem quite concerned about the Society fulfilling its remits. Just out of interest, are you a member?

I only ask, because on Mudcat I find the most fascinating phenomenon: the people most concerned about EFDSS doing what it ought to, and most ready to hold it to account, are not actually members themselves.

Go figure.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Dick The Box
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 05:25 AM

Hmmmm. Interesting thread.

Surely the point is that EFDSS is actually trying to do something?

Doing stuff rather doing nothing has got to be good in my book. If you like what they are doing then support it. If you don't like it then either ignore it, or get in there and change it from inside.

I feel for those running EFDSS - being the subject of continual sniping whatever they try to do is very demoralising and wearing. Why don't folks just ignore all those emotive words like 'English', 'Folk', 'Dance' and 'Song' - it only stirs up trouble. Look at what they are trying to do overall. Are they trying to preserve and promote at least some of the music we all love? I think the answer is 'Yes', so more power to their elbow.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:43 AM

Hmmmm, Mr Kirkpatrick needs the PRS. doesn't he?
(Oops, wrong thread!).

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:39 AM

There was of course once far too much American dance in the EFDSS social dance scene, where it really was in danger of obliterating English dance. Then there was the Cajun craze...
A social dance band still has to be able to play a few American reels.
I think I've found some English substitutes that will work, but we digress...

Oh, and I've seen that site where they're arguing about whether "Jump at the Sun" is French or Irish!

A.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:37 AM

We (Sheffield City Morris) not only dance dances that are made up, we dance morris to (amongst other things) the Coronation St. signature tune and Beethoven's 9th. I didn't realise we were restricted to ...........well what are we restricted to Richard?

Can I suggest you go back to bed and get out on the other side?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM

Well I don't like Irish tune books and sites (especially thesession.org) laying claim to every tune there is whether from someone else's tradition or of known composer as 'Irish trad', but they do.

Anyway, what's this conclusive proof you have that Morris is an 'English' dance? Is this the definitive answer we have all been waiting for? Do tell.

PS Richard you surely can't be serious in including The Princess Royal in your proposed ban on 'Irish' tunes being used for English dance? I think you are just hatching a plot to marginalise dance altogether . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: mattkeen
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:25 AM

Apart from that, you are perfectly happy with it then?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 04:15 AM

The American dance referred to appears to be performance in its own right, not in furtherance of the objects 1 and 2 of the memorandum, and so outside those cited objects. Or maybe there is a Bell Houses v City Wall clause somewhere (eg "to do anything else that the directors in their discretion see fit")?

Certainly I see no use in promoting American dance, there's too much of the damned stuff everywhere at festivals, and like Japanese Knotweed it seems to grow everywhere and be hard to eradicate. And there are too many banjos.

I also don't like Morris sides using Irish and American music to dance English dance to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:59 PM

teenagers must have had more interesting diaries in those days!

Eeeeh, we 'ad to mek us own fun...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:38 PM

Now that's an interesting take on it, Liz.....:-\

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

Me Dad's from Cardiff, Mary:-)...that's why I have no problem with the Welsh going at it at C. Sharp.... *LOL*

The Cecil Sharp Eisteddfod.... now that'll stir up the hen house.....!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

Surely the 19th Century incest and baby murdering ballads are the result of some 19th Century navel gazing and 'Ah poor me' diary-singing?

LTS

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:31 PM

Phew!
Well, that's a relief, look you!
Mary :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

I don't have a problem with Ms Humphreys singing in Welsh at Cecil Sharp House...or anywhere else come to that...

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:53 PM

Oh dear,
The lily and the pink AND the flamin' daffodil.
Bring on the Tumbleweed . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:52 PM

Hell I have never been in such distinguished company.....

Well almost never.......

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM

Well there we are, Mary. Another invasive weed in the EFDSS garden. You've set the English folk movement back 50 years. I just hope you're pleased with yourself.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:47 PM

Oh dear, Ruth,
Do I prove both you and Dick wrong when I tell you I sang a Welsh song at C#H less than a year ago? And no-one asked me to shut up because it wasn't English :)

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Me..? I'll be at Cecil Sharp House for The Tribute to Lal Waterson and that'll be about it.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:33 PM

Like the society or not...they're certainly getting some publicity here...*LOL*

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:29 PM

Dick, love, do keep up. That's not what you were told at all. Derek Schofield ACTUALLY said:

"Dick Miles and folkie dave are both correct in their statements about the purpose of the Folk Song Society. It was international in its outlook, and not specifically English. The Journal published a small number of articles about non-English song, including a significant issue about Gaelic song.
If anything, the dance side of EFDSS became more international in outlook (dance groups invited to the Albert Hall festivals, Sidmouth etc) and the song side became less international."

See? No chameleons. No contradictions with the memoranda as quoted above, either, which refer to the international aspects of DANCE, not song.

Now that we've got that all sorted, when can we expect your membership form?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:29 PM

"Besides, Appalachian flatfooting has plenty of links with English clog and step traditions."

Exactly!

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:19 PM

well this is great publicity for EFDSS.
relating to the international side of EFDSS.I brought this up on a different thread about the EFDSS.,and was told as regards the song side ,that it wasnt really international.
There seems to be a certain chameleon character to the EFDSS,It is not international,then its international.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

Sue Coe joined EFDSS at Sidmouth this year. Maybe Richard Bridge would like to ask her why EFDSS is relevant to Welsh people. Or maybe she's okay, as long as she doesn't do anything too Welsh at C#H.

Me, I'm gonna be playing my banjo and whistlin' Dixie while I do some Appalachian step dancing at the National Council meeting on Saturday. Yee hah.

Back to the topic.

Here's a thought: as this event is aimed at attracting NEW audiences, perhaps it's not really targeting the likes of us. So maybe it's a good thing that the marketing doesn't work for people who are already well-established folk enthusiasts. After all, the likes of us have got a whole day's worth of activity to entertain us (and given the intensity of feeling expressed by several posters, I trust we'll see you there?). This is one event - let's leave the youngsters to their fun. It'll be interesting to see what the takeup for the event is like on the day, and I'm sure this will help the society to plan future events.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 04:49 PM

I learned it from Sue Coe.
So it must be Welsh . . .

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 04:33 PM

Besides, Appalachian flatfooting has plenty of links with English clog and step traditions.

A.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:59 PM

"what is the ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society hosting some form of Appalachian dancing?"

sweet baby jesus. *bangs head against the wall*



"Memorandum of Association of the EFDSS

The objects for which the Society is established are:

a.   To preserve English folk dances and songs and other folk music (including singing games), to make them known and to encourage the practice of them in their traditional forms.

b.   To promote the knowledge and practice of English folk dances, songs and music by means of dances, schools, classes, examinations, lectures, demonstrations, festivals and other like methods.

c.   To promote and encourage research into and study of the origins, development and traditional practice of English folk dances, songs and music and their relationship with those OF OTHER COUNTRIES.

d.   In furtherance of the above objects to promote, and co-operate in, demonstrations, festivals and other like performances of folk dances, songs and music OF OTHETR COUNTRIES, whether held in England or elsewhere."

There are further, less relevant memoranda as well. Richard, if you'd like to join EFDSS perhaps you'll understand more about the society and its aims.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:50 PM

Been explained many times on here already - but happy to do so again.

However http://www.efdss.org/history.htm
does it much better than me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:47 PM

Frankly, encouraging whatever it is that appears to be being encouraged strikes me as about as helpful as planting weeds to see if it encourages the grass to grow, or fighting for peace or fucking for virginity.

And speaking of invasive weeds in the garden, what is the ENGLISH Folk Dance and Song Society hosting some form of Appalachian dancing?

And further, for those who seem to have missed the point, before you talk about the attributes of folk, go away and read the definition. If snigger snogwriter is "folk" then the no-folk zone is going to be pretty empty, no?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 03:20 PM

"The rest of them are trolling trash demonstrating solely that s/he has no comprehension of the context of the posts of others"

I just play along dearie, that's all...I want serious imput...that goes on elsewhere...this a playround, that's all

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:53 PM

Is it too late for New Folk? New English? New Dance? New Song? New Society?

Yes, Yes its New Folk and my name is not Tony

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: treewind
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

I can see Felicity's point.
Some young musicians are going to be intimidated because what they do might not be "proper" folk (whateverTF that means...). Calling it "folk free" at least gives them carte blanche to just do their own thing, and of course some of it might be good.

It's a risk worth taking.

By the way, I thought Robbie Thomas' article in the current EDS on the "Ceilidh Club" was interesting and relevant. That's a regular high energy dance event at Cecil Sharp House, packed with youngsters, and Robbie took the opportunity to see what could be learned from it about getting young people into events at CSH.

Anahata

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:48 PM

This is beginning to remind me of of when Alistair Campbell said of New Labour: 'We don't do god'.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM

Ruth, joke it may be, but no asterisk or the word "Unenenforced" on the EFDSSs own website.

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:42 PM

EFDSS would need to re-name themselves

English Music Inc.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,Susan B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:36 PM

Diane, I think part of the disagreement centres around whether one would like to retain the word "folk", but hope to stop re-inforcing the negative connotations (my standpoint and, I think, that of 'the button'), or whether the word is a lost cause (yours?). If "folk" is to go the EFDSS would need to re-name themselves!

I wasn't saying that "trad" is bad, just suggesting an alternative name for the session. Trad is great; it just doesn't encompass all of folk. As the session in question is one for "young singer/songwriters" this would seem to come well within most definitions of folk and outside of trad.

Susan B

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:33 PM

I like Country Life as done by the Watersons. Well, I quite like it.
I dislike a song of the same name by one Steve Knightley because it is sloganising claptrap.
SK has subsequently denied that he had the traditional song in mind when he wrote his own with the same title.
As 50% of posts from 'countrylife' have been about SoH he's obviously a 'fan'.
The rest of them are trolling trash demonstrating solely that s/he has no comprehension of the context of the posts of others.
Yes, I've already flagged up the tribute to Lal Waterson.
Pity about the extraordinarily bad timing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:25 PM

"But, Felicity, those of us who are a bit unhappy about this are not saying that "EFDSS can only be allowed to do/show/support 'old' stuff". My concern is that having a "folk free zone" re-inforces and perpetuates the notion that "folk" is anything old and boring that the young things would not be interested in. I, for one, would hate any definition of Folk to exclude the "now"."

For heaven's sake - it's a JOKE, people. It is immediately followed by an asterisk, with the word "Unenenforced".


Lighten up, willya?

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

and on a more serious note...this

A Tribute to Lal Waterson at The Electric Proms

Subject: RE: EFDSS: 'Folk free zone'
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM

the only problem I see is the problem being created by those who percieve there is a problem in the first place,the usual "let's take a bash at someone" school, that prevails here ..

countrylife as in I live in the country, not the title of some song favoured by Easby here... :-D