Is the heyday of collecting over

Subject: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 07:55 AM

Is The Heyday of collecting from traditional singers over?
I have no experience of folk song collecting,and would be interested to hear collectors opinions.
I believe Jim Carroll[collector]said that he gave up collecting from travellers some years ago,after they had had televisions installed in their caravans.
Does the situation differ from country to country,I would make an uninformed guess and say that there is probably more traditional singers in the third world,than in industrialised countries.
What is the situation in America?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 08:37 AM

Yes,
Re giving up collecting from Travellers - I said nothing of the sort - read other peoples posting more carefully
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 09:22 AM

All,
I must apologise.
I had no intention of responding to any more of the Cap's postings as I can think of much better ways of wasting my time.
I hope the Cap'ns and my differences were not the reason for Art Theime not taking part in one of these threads - a great shame - if it is, again, I apologise.
When I am misquoted I feel it necessary to reply.
Perhaps it would be better if the Cap'n and I agreed to differ permanently and part company,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 09:56 AM

We virtually witnessed the demise of the singing tradition of the Irish Travellers (somewhere between the summer of 1973 and Easter 1975 when they all went out and bought portable televisions and stopped singing and telling stories around the fire. The pool table, juke boxes and televisions in pubs pretty much put paid to any singing that went on there. The case was the similar in rural Ireland where singing had died out in the home, where the singing mainly took place, again thanks largely to television.
The above is Jim Carrolls,quote.
Of ,course Jim is not correct,about Pooltables JukeBoxes,and televisions in pubs putting paid to any singing in pubs,as everyone who visits Ireland knows there is still plenty of traditional singing and music in pubs,it may not be by travellers,Although on occassions I have seen them singing in pubs
About a year ago,I was playing in a pub,and some travellers asked to sing,Two women joined us and sang for about 20to30 minutes.
Of course in some pubs they are not always welcomed.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 12:35 PM

Where does it say I gave up collecting from Travellers?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM

Of course travellers such as PeckerDunn,and The Keenan Family,continued to play traditional music in pubs,but were now getting paid for it,I believe the Fureys were also travellers.
Jim,you didnt say you stopped collecting,but if you witnessed a virtual demise,the impression you are giving is that there was very little left worth collecting.,and little left to collect
I said I believe[that means I am not sure].
You answered yes.most people would interpret that as meaning,you think the heyday of collecting is over,but [again correct me if Iam wrong],your experience of collecting is limited to Ireland and the uk].
so its not unreasonable of me to think your yes,only applies to the UK and Ireland,but not to the rest of the world,or does your YES,apply to everywhere in the world.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM

One of the golden rules of debate is 'when you are in a hole stop digging'.
Because people no longer sang around the fire as, in our experience, they did prior to 1975, this does not mean their memories were wiped clean overnight and they could no longer remember the songs.
Our work with Travellers started in 1973 and continued unbroken to 1990.
We then intermittently recorded them until 2004, so you were only 29 years out - not bad for you.
You may have noticed that this thread is a duologue - has it not occured to you that our inability to agree is putting others off participating?
I suggest you get on with it without me. Should I have a point to make I will do so, but as I am more likely to get a more considered response by talking to my garden shed I doubt if it will be directed at anything you have to say.
Please don't involve me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 07:09 PM

Tony Schwartz, back in the 50s, did yeoman work carrying around a tape recorder and recording folks in New York. Mike Yates did some magnificent work in the 1980s in Appalachia. There's still a lot of uncollected music out there.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 07:16 PM

Oh Dick! We finally had a thread where Cap'n and Jim could argue on their own without disturbing anyone else and you spoilt it.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Peace
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 08:35 PM

There will always be songs to collect--songs that are hundreds of years old. Not much anyone can do about that.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Kent Davis
Date: 16 Sep 07 - 11:09 PM

Not sure what you would call the heyday, but people are certainly still collecting from traditional singers. In fact, they are collecting right here on Mudcat, for example: thread.cfm?threadid=104417&messages=39#2150398 and detail.cfm?messages__Message_ID=2132510 . Granted these are not Child ballads, but they are traditional, anonymous, circulating orally with variants, and collected from individuals who learned them in the course of their ordinary life (as opposed to self-consciously attempting to revive a tradition).

Kent

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:30 AM

There are, of course a few singers still to find and songs to record.
One source Azizi mentioned on another thread - children's songs, has hardly been tapped and I am told (no personal experience) is constantly developing.
We have been recording a couple of singers here in Clare recently - but they are now few and far between and both of the two we know are very elderly.
The days when we could fill a dozen or so tapes of songs during a two-week holiday is long gone.
What has taken place is an arbitrary re-definition of both folk song and traditional singer in order to validate claims that the tradition has not died and to justify 'collecting' from fellow revivalists - sorry, not convinced. By and large our society has become culturally passive and as a general rule we have little, if any part in the creation of our oral literature. The same cannot be said for Irish music, but the jury is still out on whether that will be swallowed up by the music or the tourist industry (fingers crossed).
Up to his recent death, Tom Munnelly, the only full-time collector in the British Isles and Ireland was mainly documenting his collection, with occasional forays to record staged performances at weekend singing and music festivals. In spite of strenuous efforts, he said on many occasions that the heyday of the oral tradition had long gone.
Our own interest has always extended to oral history, so we are kept fairly active in recording local people talking about the old farming and fishing techniques, local place and field names, etc, but even that is rapidly disappearing.
Can't speak for further afield.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:43 AM

Addenda - Sorry,I should have said that my knowledge does not extend to the Irish language tradition; there is certainly a lift of interest in the older songs and Lillis ó Laoire's book ''On A Rock in The Middle of The Ocean' based on his work on Tory Island indicates that there may be untapped sources from that quarter.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:46 AM

HOLY Captain's Couragous !!!! There is BYRDSH#$%T in your eye Batman.

They have deleated another one of your postings!!!!!

The "heyday" is gone. However, collection continues. Collections, such as those within my famiy, exist across all of Americana.

Boards such as Mudcat make for easy access. The Library of Congress may provide a more useful repositorty for the unpublished Poe - and here-to-fore unknown Prairie songs.

Mudcat seems to have lost "the critical mass" for scholarly digging and dicussion. Blessed be the barbarian tide.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:02 AM

If traditonal music is swallowed up by the tourist industry does it matter,My own personal opinion is, it does not,providing that the tourist industry does not force alterations.
I now play music in Ireland primarily for tourists,they listen,applaud and often show more interest than some of the locals,I try not to compromise the music, I try to play that which I think is good[Often this is the less commercial]and I try to show respect for the music.I believe if you show respect for the music it doesnt matter whether your audience are tourists,oldpeople,or young people,they are all people.
I am sorry to digress, but since Jim is not a member,I cant send him a personal message,so I am unable to discuss it privately .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:05 AM

Nick and Mally Dow did some fantastic collecting in the 1980's, although whether they still do so, I know not.

The rapid change in lifestyles for so many people, not just the travellers themselves, contributed to a dearth of people performing live. Now "everyone" has personal stereos, MP3s, T.V.s, radios, computers and so on, the habit of entertaining ourselves has seen a rapid and apparently mortal decline. The introduction of PEL's hasn't helped; where an inpromptu gathering may have occurred, these days, they're frowned upon, just in case they contravene some local council edict.

People have not had their collective consciousness wiped overnight, but as with muscles, if the memories are not used occasionally, they will wither and fade.

LTS

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 07:31 AM

To add to my previous post,tourists can also be musicians,only two weeks ago, the addition of tourist/musicians to my gig was a plus.
Only last saturday,I took part in an impromptu session,in a local pub,we were playing for our own pleasure[no money involved]all the other musicians were musicians who play gigs for money[so are part of the tourist industry],we played the same repertoire,as we would for a paid gig.
I have also found mobile phones a useful way to pass on music/tunes orally to teenagers,who want to learn a particular tune.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:43 AM

Is it worth mentioning the Max Hunter archive in this context? As someone relatively new to Mudcat (to the extent where I'm not sure if this has come up before or how to go about finding out if it has) I would have thought this was significant, and recent-ish too in terms of 20th century history & collections of traditional songs. Certainly came as a revelation to me - as does Jim collecting in Ireland up to 2004.

Is this archive at all accessible, Jim?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM

Collecting is alive and well in WV.

There are still some "old guys" like Lester McCumbers and Frank George.
There's a much larger group of "not so old but getting older guys" like John Morris and Bobby Taylor and Gerry Milnes.
And a huge crowd of "kids" you've never heard of if you have not attended any of the WV festivals.

Any time they make music it's worth turning on the recorder.
Its all traditional and its all different and its all good.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 01:13 PM

Just as there are undiscovered fossils and living creatures yet unrevealed, there are surely songs and poems yet unseen and unheard outside of their points of origin. I would simply say, "stay tuned," unless your interest is in the discovery and collection itself.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:09 PM

Interesting, as I suspected the situation is different in America than it is in Ireland.
Any more info would be appreciated.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:12 PM

Sedayne,
Have heard of the Max Hunter collection, but am not personally familiar with it.
Would have thought Sandy Paton could give you information on this; he produced an album of his years ago. I've seen his name on this site occasionally.
gargoyle - I assume we're talking of source singers when we talk about collecting. There's a lifetime's work to be done in libraries and unpublished collections - the live stuff has more or less gone from here (unless we are looking in different directions.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 03:46 PM

I don't think anything is even remotely over. --here is a bit of boilerplate from the Ethnomusicology Program at Indiana University, and it looks like they are keeping their people pretty busy-

The IU curriculum offers a full range of courses to provide solid training in the discipline of ethnomusicology, including theories and methods in ethnomusicology and adjacent disciplines; intellectual history; fieldwork; and transcription and analysis. The program has particular strengths in musics and cultures of Africa, East Asia, and North America as well as in the transregional and diasporic study of music, including music of the African diaspora, Jewish music, and popular music. Among the topics and approaches offered through our program are music and film, perception and cognition, music and identity, music and religion, and issues in the study and practice of applied ethnomusicology. The program also offers opportunities to study music performance in a range of traditions as well as training in multimedia applications, preservation, archiving, and the documentation of artists and performance.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Rich (bodhránaí gan ciall)
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:36 PM

Collecting has not so much become a thing of the past but instead become a bit less necessary. There is such a wealth of music available now with significantly less effort than before. Granted, recorded sound and images don't get online by themselves, but once one person puts it out to the public, millions have access to it. For every one individual who goes out in the field and records someone singing a rare song or playing a melody, there are so many people looking no further than youtube.

It's kind of like when all us old Deadheads meticulously collected and traded live recordings only to have our most obscure gems later released in the Dick's Picks series.

I guess in the long run it's better for the longevity of the music.

Rich

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 08:55 PM

to add to a list of who's collecting now, Lydia Fish is compiling songs sung by the military during the Vietnam war.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:05 PM

Dick and John-

Singing old songs and adapting them to new situations will continue. It's the collectors who have to regroup and figure out what it is that needs to be collected. I hope they are up to the challenge.

It may be true that contemporary song has a shorter half-life than the traditional ballad of yore. All the more reason to "net" it within the environment that provoked it.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:16 PM

Well...Cap....delighted you finally extended some boundary-lines.

Regarding Ireland....it is a country used, abused....and as migration statistics tell.....refused. Two weeks was enough for me.....I could not imagine the drugery being wed to it for eternity.

In the colonies....the fields are still fertile.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some of us are "musical whores" it keeps the industry alive....and a small ching-a-linga-cling in our pockets

In the United States of America... many splendid, professional, creative works are woven with the warp of tradition tunes, even binding local birdcalls. In-breeding seems to be less a problem, perhaps, it is because the continent is so vast.

i.e. http://www.timothyseaman.com/

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 03:06 AM

Gargoyle
"it is a country used, abused....and as migration statistics tell.....refused. Two weeks was enough for me.....I could not imagine the drugery being wed to it for eternity."
I've often been accused of living in the past but...... The times they are a-changing. After visiting Ireland for thirty odd years, we moved here 9 years ago from a land of 'users and abusers' and haven't regretted a second of it. Not to put too fine a point on it - I can see why it holds no attraction for the US (prime U & As themselves) as it has no oil, - sorry - and unless they find some, I presume we will be left in peace.
Meanwhile - back at the ranch. Those of us who collect do not do so because we like hoarding bright shiny objects, we do so for the love of the songs, music and stories defined here (not 'my' nor 'a' but 'the' definition - and the door I came through some 4 decades ago):
"Folk music is the product of a musical tradition that has been evolved through the process of oral transmission. The factors that shape the tradition are: (i) continuity which links the present with the past; (ii) variation which springs from the creative impulse of the individual or the group; and (iii) selection by the community, which determines the form or forms in which the music survives.
The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.
The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character."
If you still have this in its raw form (and all the information that goes with it, you have my undivided envy), but the only things we are being shown over here are the Lomax/Rounder recordings (made how long ago?)
Look forward to being disabused.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 03:48 AM

I would be interested to hear from any mudcatters in Australia,and what there experiences of collecting are.
Jim,I moved her 17 years ago and like you have never regretted it,we,ve agreed on something.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 07:42 AM

If people go to the musical traditional site,and seek out the atricle on Bob Lewis by VicSmith,they will see that Bob Lewis,s[Traditional singer]perspective of what is a traditional singer is different from many collectors,.
His view of what folksongs were is interesting too.
I suspect that the definition of what folksongs are that Jim Carroll gives us,was decided not by the traditional singers themselves[they were too busy enjoying singing the songs]but by academics [some of whom might have been revivalists].
Does anyone know who were the people that decided on the definition of what folk songs were[That JIM uses].Iam sure it wasnt Margaret Barry,FredJordan,etc.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 09:15 AM

For the Max Hunter archive, click HERE

All 1600 of the songs he collected are on-line both in transciption and the original source recordings. My favourite singer so far is Mrs Pearl Brewer of Pokahantas, whose chilling renderings of The Cruel Mother (All Down by the Greenwood Side) are the pure drop, to my ears anyway...

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 09:58 AM

Sedayne, I agree,thankyou for the link,great.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Kevin Rietmann
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:41 AM

While you're at it, check out the Wolf Folklore and Wisconsin Folksong Collections. I have downloaded/converted everything from these sites into MP3s too, if anyone's interested in swapping. Terrible chore making them, too.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Kevin Rietmann
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:43 AM

My favorite at the moment from the Wisconsin Folksong Collection is Lewis Winfield Moody's Alphabet Song, which is not only horribly raunchy, but uses the same melody as the Orphan jig.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 03:48 PM

The Collections of the Northeast Archives of Folklore and Oral History which are headquartered at the University of Maine in Orono, Maine, may be of interest: Click here for website!

They are still actively collecting.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 06:55 PM

The Winsconsin Folklore collection is amazing. I didn't realise that Welsh language songs had been collected over in the States to that extent.
Well worth a look for all sorts of unusual songs.
The Wolf folklore has a huge number of Almeida Riddle recordings - she is my favourite American singer. What a wonderful link. Thanks Kevin.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 06:06 AM

I agree, Mary.A wonderful link.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Kevin Rietmann
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 08:27 AM

There's a good few things of Almeda at the Max Hunter site as well. They have hundreds of songs from Ollie Gilbert, who also recites some biblical verse to show what a prime steel trap memory she has!

There's a very nice songbook, Folk Songs Out of Wisconsin, you can get used at a reasonable price. Also a CD, Folk Songs from Wisconsin I think it's called. An Amazon reviewer castigated it as Anglo-centric, Wisconsin is 50% German ancestry I believe. Still a terrific recording, from the same 1940s field recordings they use at the website.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:53 PM

The definition of folk music that Jim uses was decided at a meeting of the International Folk Music Council at its General Assembly, Sao Paulo Brazil, 1954.

There are problems with it and I think those who have read widely on the subject will recognise them. But generally speaking it serves us well.

Is the heyday of collecting over - certainly. Are there gems still to to be discovered - almost certainly.

There are still some song carriers/tradition bearers (a phrase I personally prefer) around. My guess is that any "undiscovered" singers they will be in the hunting fraternity/sheperd meets where the singing tradition continues. At least it does around our way - that well known centre of hunting, Sheffield.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:19 PM

Thankyou,Dave,you are of course referring to collecting in England.
It seems that other parts of the world,may be more profitable for collectors.
The definition of folk music, that was decided at the meeting in Sao Paulo,was decided by academics?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 09:18 PM

The Helene Stratman Thomas collection within the WISCONSIN FOLKLORE site is a wonder. She did fascinating collecting work with Harry Peters. This is also chronicled in the book FOLK SONGS OUT OF WISCONSIN. It was quite valuable to me when I was looking for songs that truly made the older times in the various folkloristic pockets of that state come alive for listeners. And NOW it's on line! Am amazing turn of events that me and my cohorts never could've imagined in our lifetime.

People-----please---realize how very lucky you are!!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:13 AM

Thanks, Art.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GLoux
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM

Ray Alden's Field Recorders' Collective is in its 4th year and now includes over 40 CDs of traditional music. It is overwhelming to me.

Garry Harrison has published Dear Old Illinois within the past year and is, in my humble opinion, one of the most significant collections (actually two collections) to be made available in quite some time.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM

the heyday is over, yes.

But like all these things it has changed.
1) the internet is the biggest collection medium now.
2) define folk. I would bet football songs on the terraces would qualify, though they do have authors and they are documented in fanzines. But it is what folk do, and a lot of them at that. Better they sing than fight.
3) It doesn't have to be song or music, there are plenty things that people do that have sprung-up spontaneously - like blue jacking. The collectors of that are probably the media.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:18 PM

Collecting music and making it available is extremely important.

The biggest problem is now getting it from printed paper to a secure place on the net and secure digital archives. Web pages are not perminent or secure just a temporary holding place till a collection is completed and then put on secure media in quantity with large distribution and archiving or returns in a more complete improved form back to the print medium after being digested and improved on line.

Biggest problem these days is too many professional musicians and not enough cultural musiians. People think you have to be a pro to sing and write or compose. Most people also do not carry enough songs or tunes in their heads....

Conrad

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM

"2) define folk. I would bet football songs on the terraces would qualify, though they do have authors and they are documented in fanzines."

That old chesnut about folk songs having to be anonymous keeps turning up like a 'bad penny' doesn't it?

I seem to recall that Bert Lloyd said something along the lines that the fact that many of the folk songs that we know about tend to be anonymous is probably due to an accident of history ... or something like that.

Borrowing a chunk from Mr Carrol's favourite definition (which I happen to think is the only one that makes sense):

"The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community."

I imagine, though, that writing this is a waste of time as it doesn't fit with many people's preconceptions.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:10 PM

Here is alist of some of the people present,at the meetingof the International[sic]Folk Music Council in Sao paulo 1954,where they defined folk music.
Mrs Lake Bennett[Representing the Folklore Society.Miss Victoria Kingsley,Miss Beryl de Zoete,Miss Maud Karpeles,MrDouglasKennedy [Director of EFDSS in1954].
The Congress was attended by about 200 delegates from 25 countries,the American countries were of course the most fully represented[why?],there were delegates ferom Japan and many European countries[so it was not truly International].
Not much evidence of traditional singers there.
at this same International[SIC]Conference apart from defining folk music,also on the agenda was Folk music in education
I quote in brackets[This congress is convinced that a knowledge of folk music[[which includes dance as well as song]]is the basis upon which should rest the musical education of the ordinary citizen as well as that of the specialized musician].
Ittherefore recommends:
[a]that folk music should be usedat all stages of education:
[b]that the knowledge of experts should be utilized in the selection of material,in the trainiNg of teachers andin the control of the diffusion of folk music by popular methodssuch as radio televisionrecords films and public performances
[c]that the study of folk music should be raised to academic status.
You might wonder,how someone described as a philistine,and someone who knows nothing about traditional music, has this information.
so the congress[it appears] decided that the ordinary citizen should be taught what is a folksong ,by people who didnt deem it appropriate/necessary that traditional singers should be represented or able to voice their opinions or have any input at this congress.
I find the attitude a bit patronising.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 03:18 PM

I can see exactly where Peter Kennedy,got his patronising attitude to Scan Tester,[ManIntheMoon incident] from his father and his cohorts,who helped to make this definition.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:07 PM

Thanks for that post, Mr. Miles. It creates an interesting and surprising new direction for this already tempestuous thread.

Of course, the congress and it's recommendations reflect classic American post-war "Marshall Plan" thinking-only instead of agriculture, industry, and economies, the aim was to rebuild the cultures that had been destroyed. The idea being that the indigenous music and dance were shared natural resources that could be used to forge nations, or some such..

I would say that considerable arrogance, and intellectual elitism underlay all of this.   Also, ironically, despite the efforts of the experts, the music that post war youth embraced was rock'n'roll. And the dances that they embraced were not indigieous folk dances.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Art Thieme
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:14 PM

Gary Harrison's book looks wonderful as does the 3-CD set.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:23 PM

Naturally, 'folk music', as a subject of study, was defined by the people who studied it. The people who sang it were mostly quite uninterested in what it was called; though, as Jim Carroll has explained elsewhere, some did make a clear distinction between the old and new items in their repertoires, generally giving a higher value to those they considered older (and, it should be said, frequently expressing pleasure that 'collectors' showed an interest in them, as their own children did not).

In what way is this a problem?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:19 AM

Malcolm,
I am sure that if folk music was redefined in 2007,those people who defined it would give more consideration to the opinions of traditional singers on the subject.,it is quite feasible that those same people might redefine it differently today,from how they did in 1954.
The attitudes of collectors and society and the attitudes of society have changed since 1954, so many things have changed since the days of [The ManintheMoon /Peter Kennedy Scan Tester, patronising remark].
The problem is that those people in 1954 ,who made that definition,reflected the attitudes prevalent in that day,.
After fifty years and massive changes in society,I believe the definition should be given a 21stcentury evaluation,with consideration to the viewpoint of the people,from whom the songs were collected.
It should be the duty of collectors not merely to collect the songs,but wherever possible to get the singers veiwpoint on the songs,and how they define a folksong.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Santa
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:05 AM

Think, people! Given the difficulties of travel in 1954, comfortably predating the ease of international travel that the jet engine has brought to us, is it really surprising that few traditional singers made the trip to Sao Paolo? What was the cost, London to SP? No paying gigs there, just an international conference with much talking and (I suspect) few sessions?

Can it genuinely be said that those who did represent folk music there were patronising and arrogant, and deliberately excluded traditional folk? Or is this just latter-day chips on shoulders?   It seems more likely that they were genuinely interested and informed people, if rather more academic than some might like. Oh dear, we can't have them informed and academic people interested in our folk music, can we?   There is a thread on folk music and the middle class elsewhere, for those who do think that way.......

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:30 PM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected.
I am sure If Douglas Kennedy were alive today he would think and act differently,he and all the other delegates were products of their times,some of them still tinged with British Imperialist notions, and all of them affected by class attitudes that were prevalent at the time.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected

Dick that is pure simple speculation. You have an obsession with the EFDSS which seems entirely based on ideas of your own and bears no known relationship to the facts. You do this time and time again and people like John Adams and Malcolm Douglas have to waste their valuable time correcting you.That´s apart from your somewhat idiosyncratic use of punctuation and the norms of writing.

Now here is a positive suggestion as far as the latter is concerned.

Write out what you want to say in WORD and after spell-checking and grammar-checking, copy and paste the result into Mudcat.

Abd here is a positive suggestion about the EFDSS. Make sure you know what you are talking about and don´t post simple speculation made up by you.

It would help us all.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:03 PM

Douglas Kennedy was director of EFDSS in 1954.Maud Karpeles was a member,and no ordinary member,she was a close associate of CecilSharp,and helped him with much of his collecting,both of these two were present,other ENGLISH members of the EFDSS present were MrsLakeBennett,MissKingsley,and MissBeryl deZoete,theIFMC were happily going with their definition when the then Director of EFDSS
Douglas Kennedy proposed the addition of the third paragraph.
This is all Reported in the journal of the EFDSS 1954 ,it is not speculation but fact.
Well Mr Eyre if you have proof that they did consult traditional singers and ask their opinions,please provide it, and I will apologise.
I do not have an obession with EFDSS. I have been critical of their past management ,but have on a number of occasions wished the present management every success.
Icould easily make a positive suggestion of what you should do,but I will not as personal abuse is best avoided on this forum.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

correction,
The third paragraph/Kennedy information is not reported in the journal,but was taken from doc toms post on another thread,he has done a PHD on this subject.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:43 AM

no , they probably didnt deliberately exclude them,but more likely didnt think that they had anything worthwhile to contribute,that decisions such as were made, were better made by the EFDSS or their representatives,Than by the people from whom the songs were collected

Dick the words "probably" - "more likely" - indicate that you are guessing their motives. No one is denying your expertise in the matter of the IFMC, although I seem to remember only a week or so ago you had no idea where the definition came from.

I don´t need to prove their motives, I am not imputing anything to them. You are, so the burden of proof lies with you.

Clearly your expertise in the matter of Maud Karpeles helpìng Sharp with "much of his collecting" is much greater than mine. Tell us which of his collecting she helped him with Dick.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:27 AM

Dave,I have some blackcurrant bushes to plant,Then I have some music to play,you probably want to watch Sheffield United play football.
can we let otherpeole put their points of view, I will get back to Maud Karpeles, tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

Maud and her sister Helen (1887Ð1976) first came across folk dances and songs when they attended the Stratford-upon-Avon Festival in 1909. They subsequently formed a folk dance club and gave demonstrations to illustrate Cecil Sharp's public lectures, thereby forming the nucleus of Sharp's English Folk Dance Society (EFDS), founded in 1911, which merged with the Folk-Song Society in 1932 to form the English Folk Dance and Song Society. By 1913, Maud had offered her services as Sharp's amanuensis and effectively took up residence with his family. She accompanied him on all but the first of his visits to America, and on all of his collecting trips to the Appalachians of 1916-18.
www.wikipiedia online encyclopeadia

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:49 AM

Folkiedave, why do you have to be so insulting to Cap'n Birdseye, he is entitled to his opinions and views, just the same as you are. I have no axe to grind, either with EFDSS or yourselves, as I do not know either of you.

I'm sick of this kind of slanging that wastes so much time and space on this website, is it really necessary?

Subject: RE: Is the heyday of collecting over
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:42 PM

Folkiedave, why do you have to be so insulting to Cap'n Birdseye, he is entitled to his opinions and views,

I must confess I go through periods of trying to resist posting on threads that the Captain starts.

Then once again he posts something that is patently untrue. Of course he is entitled to his opinions. What (IMHO) he is not entitled to do is show either incomplete knowledge or misunderstand what someone has said. Especially when with five minutes thought and/or research what he says can be shown to be wrong.

As his posting on the subject of Maud Karpeles shows.

What the Captain said was that she helped Sharp with "much of his collecting". Sharp had in fact more or less completed his collecting of folk songs in England and published his thoughts in his book "English Folk Songs: Some Conclusions" in 1907.

His morris and sword dancing collecting was also mostly done and also completed before Karpeles came on the scene.

He had difficulty writing because of neuritis so she became his amanuensis and then as it says in Wikipedia entry his secretary in 1913.

She accompanied him with his collecting in the Appalachians for a total of forty six weeks in two separate visits between 1916 and 1918. She herself collected in Newfoundland which Sharp had intended to visit but never did.

Those aren´t opinions, those are facts. You and Dick are entitled to try and contradict them. None of what I have written negates the Wikipedia entry that Dick copied and pasted - neither does that entry say as Dick did, that she helped Sharp with "much of his collecting". It doesn´t say, that because she didn´t.

You see Dick is planting his blackcurrant bushes, a bit early in my opinion, personally I´d have left them a bit later - but of course the climate in Sheffield is different to where Dick lives. So he is entitled to his opinion when it comes to planting blackcurrants.

And Lizzie, your posts are so easy to spot. Please don´t.