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BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!

Donuel 17 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM
Rapparee 17 Sep 07 - 08:49 AM
Riginslinger 17 Sep 07 - 08:50 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 07 - 09:06 AM
Rapparee 17 Sep 07 - 09:08 AM
Emma B 17 Sep 07 - 09:12 AM
Peace 17 Sep 07 - 09:22 AM
Peace 17 Sep 07 - 09:32 AM
Donuel 17 Sep 07 - 09:35 AM
artbrooks 17 Sep 07 - 09:36 AM
Riginslinger 17 Sep 07 - 10:54 AM
Charley Noble 17 Sep 07 - 12:38 PM
Amos 17 Sep 07 - 12:41 PM
Folkiedave 17 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM
Peace 17 Sep 07 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,petr 17 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Sep 07 - 04:56 PM
GUEST,miliatarypopo 17 Sep 07 - 05:28 PM
Riginslinger 17 Sep 07 - 06:08 PM
Bill D 17 Sep 07 - 06:10 PM
Bobert 17 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM
Peace 17 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM
GUEST,Tom 17 Sep 07 - 09:00 PM
Riginslinger 17 Sep 07 - 11:45 PM
Ebbie 18 Sep 07 - 01:47 AM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 07 - 08:17 AM
Rapparee 18 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM
Peace 18 Sep 07 - 09:39 AM
Peace 18 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM
Charley Noble 18 Sep 07 - 10:03 AM
PMB 18 Sep 07 - 10:30 AM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 07 - 10:57 AM
Donuel 18 Sep 07 - 05:34 PM
Bobert 18 Sep 07 - 07:51 PM
Riginslinger 18 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM
Ron Davies 18 Sep 07 - 11:34 PM
Teribus 19 Sep 07 - 12:48 AM
Barry Finn 19 Sep 07 - 02:58 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM
Charley Noble 19 Sep 07 - 09:39 AM
Ebbie 19 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM
Teribus 19 Sep 07 - 12:36 PM
Folkiedave 19 Sep 07 - 01:07 PM
Donuel 19 Sep 07 - 01:39 PM
GUEST,petr 19 Sep 07 - 01:56 PM
Charley Noble 19 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 07 - 12:28 AM
Teribus 20 Sep 07 - 01:27 AM
Barry Finn 20 Sep 07 - 01:34 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Sep 07 - 06:25 AM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM
Ebbie 20 Sep 07 - 02:49 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM
GUEST,dianavan 20 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM
Barry Finn 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 AM
GUEST,petr 21 Sep 07 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,saulgoldie 21 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM
Ebbie 21 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM
Folkiedave 21 Sep 07 - 02:18 PM
Peace 21 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM
Ebbie 21 Sep 07 - 03:13 PM
GUEST,TOM 21 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM
Ron Davies 22 Sep 07 - 12:08 AM
GUEST,Bill 22 Sep 07 - 03:37 AM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 07 - 08:40 AM
Ron Davies 22 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 07 - 12:21 PM
Ron Davies 22 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM
Peace 22 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM
Riginslinger 22 Sep 07 - 09:25 PM
Peace 22 Sep 07 - 10:27 PM
Riginslinger 23 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM
Ron Davies 23 Sep 07 - 12:10 PM
Charley Noble 23 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM
Folkiedave 24 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 07 - 06:29 AM
GUEST,.gargoyle 24 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Sep 07 - 09:46 PM
Peace 24 Sep 07 - 09:47 PM
Ron Davies 05 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM
kendall 05 Apr 08 - 09:28 AM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM
MuddleC 06 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM
Bobert 06 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM
Ron Davies 06 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 06 Apr 08 - 05:10 PM
Nickhere 06 Apr 08 - 09:07 PM

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Subject: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM

The private army Blackwater had its license suspended in Iraq for murdering Iraq civilians.

This is a big deal since it is the first time a private US army is being held accountable for high crimes and misdemeaners.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 08:49 AM

Yup. Saw it on the AP site a little bit ago. Doesn't surprise me -- "You talk about pulling out and we'll fix you, by gum!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 08:50 AM

Does this mean the suicide bombing will stop?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:06 AM

It means that the shock awe and torture technique is part of the problem and not part of the solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:08 AM

What makes anyone think that the US will comply? What prevents the Blackwater guys from being transferred into other groups and disbanding the BW group?

Yanking the license is, in my opinion, simply another "feel good/looks good" action done by governments all over the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Emma B
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:12 AM

not quite "security contractors" then?

Eeeeek!


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:22 AM

I agree with Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:32 AM

"Blackwater has an estimated 1,000 employees in Iraq, and at least $800 million in government contracts. It is one of the most high-profile security firms in Iraq, with its fleet of "Little Bird" helicopters and armed door gunners swarming Baghdad and beyond.

The secretive company, run by a former Navy SEAL, is based at a massive, swampland complex. Until the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks, it had few security contracts.

Since then, Blackwater profits have soared. And it has become the focus of numerous controversies in Iraq, including the May 30 shooting death of an Iraqi deemed to be driving too close to a Blackwater security detail."

Bunch of fu#kin' bums.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:35 AM

I have a book to recommend to you Rapaire.
The Rise of Diaster - Capitalism
No its not a Marxist rant , it is the history of the Milton Friedman model of econmics as prescribed by the CIA to destroy societies with shock awe murder torture and sensory/utilities deprivation and then rebuild the country with the free market model at its heart.

Pinochet's Chile was the first experiment.

Doing nothing or seemingly screwing up Iraq is not merely negligence of inaction - it is planned inaction to reduce a society to nothing but chaos in order to start the new Freidman anti welfare state and free market society so that corporations have a free hand in anything they want to do.

Yes even allowing the sacking of Iraq's museums is part of the tearing down process.

The sensory deprivation and quote "new" torture techniques are actually about 50 years old now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:36 AM

yep


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 10:54 AM

Wonderful - It always seemed to me that if a government followed Reaganomics to it obvious conclusion, Pinochet's Chile would be exactly what you'd end up with.

             But what's to prevent Blackwater from pulling off some kind of covert operation--like bombing a mosque, for instance--in order to make the case that they need to stay there and rip off the American tax payers for more money?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:38 PM

There's nothing quite like your own private army. Kicking them out of Iraq is step 1. Shutting them down here in the States should be step 2. Drain the Blackwater swamp before they start flexing their muscle here.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 12:41 PM

Vivid metaphor, if mixed.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 01:34 PM

Teribus said:

No there is no army of "contractors " waging their own privatised war in Iraq. There may well be a large number of private security firms operating in Iraq and elsewhere all over the middle-east, but to state that they are "waging their own privatised war", is rather over-egging the pudding. But that is what the extreme-left tend to do, as I stated before - The same old emotive clap-trap made up of myths, half-truths, downright lies and misrepresentations - Well done indeed Folkiedave.

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:04 PM

Hell, those folks from Blackwater were in New Orleans patrolling the streets during the aftermath of Katrina. FYI. It's not like their presence in places is a secret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

when Jeremy Scahill, who wrote a book on the topic
www.blackwaterbook.com
was interviewed on CBC radio a few months back - he said there are
at least 100,000 security contractors in Iraq (dont know how many are blackwater) but under the existing US agreement with the govt of Iraq
they are immune from prosecution in IRaq. (also since they are not military they are not bound by a military code of conduct.)

Scahill was in New Orleans, shortly after Katrina hit, and saw a bunch of armed guys getting out of a vehicle with no plates, and asked a police officer who they were - apparently they were Blackwater guys -
help people perhaps? no provide security against looters.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 04:56 PM

Teribus said

So what?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,miliatarypopo
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 05:28 PM

I strongly feel no should have any say so over security,contractor,etc.. who risks thier life and limb to be in a war zone'. Just like Katrina people were told to get the f out,they stayed so dont bitch. Jealousy over the pay they make is what people cry about,hell " Im jealous". If child molesters,maniacs or sick shootem ups freaks are in thier bodybomb strapping,non tiolet paper using backyard, then think twice next time you support people who fly 250 people a pop in buildings killing thousands.Oh by the way 7 year experiance required by blkwtr shuold show wether you have 2yrs exp or 18yrs,Helvesten died easy,and he was NO JOKE. Best of the best.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 06:08 PM

"I strongly feel no should have any say so over security,contractor,etc.. who risks thier life and limb to be in a war zone'."


                  Pimps and prostitutes risk their lives too, and the pay is top-drawer. Same kind of business: same kind of pay.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 06:10 PM

miliatarypopo ...my, what interesting spelling, grammar & punctuation you have! Makes me REALLY confident of your sense and awareness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM

Hey, Bill, I resemble that remark...

But seriously, as bad as my spellin' and typin' is I have warned folks here about the dangers of having this "shadow army"... First of all, it isn't an efficient use of public money... Why should an untrained guy get $200,000 a year to do what a trained guy gets 20 grand???

But leave the money alone...

The bottom line is that these folks are not trained... They are not familiar with the Geneva Convention and yet they represent the US???

There is something inherently wrong with hiring folks who don't know jack from jack and pay them big money...

There's more on these folks than what just happened... Lots more...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 08:33 PM

"Why should an untrained guy get $200,000 a year to do what a trained guy gets 20 grand???"

They don't GET that amount per year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 09:00 PM

I know a guy who got out of the Air Force and went to work at Blackwater. He told me that he got about 80-90 grand for about 8 months of work a year. The guys at Blackwater that pull 200,000 a year work for big State Department contracts, and are ex Spec Ops. The Military pays less, but guys in the Army have better equipment and support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Sep 07 - 11:45 PM

Must be getting no-bid, cost-plus contracts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 01:47 AM

Tonight's news said that the Maliki government has ordered Blackwater out- but, the reporter said, the US is not talking at all about sending them home. They said that the military, especially the bigwigs, would be absolutely crippled if BW left, that BW's main function is to provide security for the upper echelon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 08:17 AM

I suspect Blackwater's main role is to provide tax payer revenue to the upper echelon they're being paid to protect.

                It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Maybe the Maliki government has finally figured out that the private provocateurs in Iraq are purposely keeping things unstable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 08:52 AM

If the US can't support its military operations without hiring non-military groups such as Blackwater, the US shouldn't be there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 09:39 AM

With you all the way on that, Rapaire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 09:51 AM

BTW, I would prefer to see that Blackwater had been kicked out of the United States. The money motives have changed, but don't they sound much like the various paramilitary groups that were around? Aryan Nations? That kinda shit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:03 AM

There are supposed to be about 1000 Blackwater security people in Iraq and I would expect that they are more experienced and better trained than the other private security teams. I doubt that the State Department would hire them for political reasons alone.

It will be interesting to see if the Iraqi government backs down on their recent order to expell Blackwater by revoking their license to operate.

Drain the swamp!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: PMB
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:30 AM

This is the big test- is the Iraqi government sovereign, or will it be forced to take orders from Washington? Here's what I think will happen:

The "security guards" wanted by the Iraqis will mysteriously disappear so they can't be handed over.
Blackwater will be withdrawn from its contracts, which will be given to a new firm, Whitefire.
The employees of Blackwater will be transferred to Whitefire.
Maliki is getting a bit lippy. He'll have to go.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 10:57 AM

PMB - It sounds like you've been reading Dick Cheney's playbook.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 05:34 PM

I remember th days when the military had to cook thier own meals.
The days of KP duty and peeling potatos are gone.

Peace: fuckwit? I haven't heard that one in a lng time. It actually is too kind of a phrase if you really want to make someone feel poorly about themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 07:51 PM

And just' one more thought... Waht happens when when of these guys get's disabled??? Who pays for it and for how long??? Blackwater??? Don't think so... Okay, maybe for a while before dropping the shmo like an old girlfriend... Then what??? Who pays???

This is just another very bad example of outsourcing/union busting gone wrong... You think the CEO of Blackwater loses any sleep over the folks who are now on some kind of public assistence program because they got half blown up working fir him??? Think again...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM

Maybe they just leave them out there wounded until...

That way they only have to pay for a funeral.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Sep 07 - 11:34 PM

It's certainly true that the Blackwater employees who killed the Iraqis recently will likely be whisked out of the country, if not fired. As of now no Blackwater employee has ever been tried for killing Iraqis--and it's not likely to start now.

The Bush regime will, if they haven't already done so,, make it clear to Maliki that Blackwater must stay in Iraq--since they protect State Dept bigwigs and others Bush feels tenderly about. The Bush "team" will insist that if Maliki wants US support, Blackwater cannot be terminated. In fact, since US troops are to be--slowly--leaving Iraq, the call will be for more, not fewer, security contractors. But Blackwater can be criticized, the Bush regime will imply to Maliki-- -and criticism has already garnered Maliki some support.

As to Maliki getting "lippy" and therefore being removed--not likely. Bush has put all his cards on Maliki--and there's no one else who'd have any better luck in holding together an artificially cobbled-together country (put together by Europeans) which is falling apart more every day.

If Maliki does by some chance insist on the termination of Blackwater's contracts, that will be the end of Mr. Bush's excellent adventure in Iraq--and the retreat to "Kurdistan" will follow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:48 AM

OK Folkiedave, so killing 13 people amounts to waging a private war - Hell's teeth there are more people killed in road accidents in one week than that. That's another problem with the socialist left - absolutely no bloody sense of proportion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 02:58 AM

Ya T what happened amounts to no more than a traffic accident to you, who's sense of proportion is out of wack? The fuss over these killings is a problem with the socialist left. What social left, these were innocent Iraqi civilians, it's a problem that the Iraq government thinks is not exceptable or on equal par with a traffic accident. Where have you been living for the past 1/2 century, at some outpost in some far away galaxy? Get a grip.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM

The fact is Teribus you said they weren´t waging a private war. The Iraq government want to kick them out because they are. I tohught you were in favour of the Iraq goverment running their own counry.

Accidents are accidents, the clue is in the name.

That´s the problem with the far right, no sense of sorrow for those killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 09:39 AM

The problem is that the insurgency shows little sign of letting up and ambushing conveys in major cities is an opportunity to embarrass the occupiers, and in this case spotlight the issue of private security frims. The private security firms have little accountability to the Iraqi government, or their U.S. employers, and certainly none to their employees who sign waivers of liability in oder to get these high paying jobs.

Evidently the marine security guards that generally protect our embassies are stretched too thin to provide convoy security, and the regular armed forces are similarly constrained.

No wonder Iraqi civilians in Baghdad don't feel particularly secure. And no wonder that the Iraqi government is trying to raise this issue.

One wonders what the real details of the so called ambush by insurgants and reaction by the Blackwater guards actually were. Certainly there is no question that civilians were killed in this incident.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM

What's the Problem? We Know an Occupying Army Always Speaks Truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:36 PM

"The problem is that the insurgency shows little sign of letting up and ambushing conveys in major cities is an opportunity to embarrass the occupiers, and in this case spotlight the issue of private security firms." - Charley Noble

Over the past year it has shown significant signs of letting up Charley, both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Contract Security does some convoy protection, I do not know if anybody has looked into it, but how many of the attacks on these convoys are criminal and not politically motivated at all? When kidnapping was the rage in Baghdad seven out of eight were criminal acts done for the money. Way back in the 70's the long distance drivers who drove from western Europe to Tehran had to have "Contract Security" to protect them when driving through the mountains of Iranian Kurdistan. The trick the locals played there was induced rockslides which knocked trucks off the road, they then went down and robbed the cargo.

Blackwater is either the third or fourth largest private security company operating in Iraq, the largest is a British outfit, they reckon that all told there are about 100,000 private security personnel working in Iraq, of which 65% of them are Iraqis. Blackwater's contract is with US government types, high value targets for the likes of Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq. After all their leadership has taken a bit of a pasting, as have their foot soldiers (They lose in less than a year what the MNF has lost in four). They are even worse off now that the Sunni Arabs are turning against them. It's little wonder that they will go after what appears to be softer targets protected by "civilians".

As for being a Blackwater employee out in Iraq, the memory of four horribly burnt corpses being dragged through the streets before being hung up on a bridge, must colour what threshold, or leeway you would allow an innocent by-stander when the shit hits the fan and bullets start flying. Those four corpses were after all Blackwater employees.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:07 PM

Four Blackwater employees hung up on a bridge. Hell, there were more than that killed in one road accident on the M4 a few days ago.

Do get a sense of proportion Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:39 PM

Privatising every god damn thing up to the president and down to the private is the epitome of corporate control of once was a Constitutional republic that had representatives of the people and by the people at the helm of the goverment of the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:56 PM

sense of proportion.., thats no different than saying that 3000 killed on 9/11 is about the number of Americans killed by guns in one month.

those thirteen or twenty (what the IRaqis say) is only one incident of many. And in 4 years of activity in IRaq only one Blackwater guy was charged with assault (against another Blackwater employee).
but then they dont have to obey the military code, and they are immune from prosecution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM

Terribus-

But do you think it is even possible that the Blackwater guards in this instance overeacted, and in doing so created more of a problem for themselves and their clients? Or is the loss of life irrelevant or justified in some way by what was done to the other four Blackwater guards by other Iraqi? I don't follow your reasoning, which is usually quite clear even if I do disagree with you most of the time.

I do agree that Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq has been under increased pressure the last few months and must be desparate to demonstrate that it can still hit where it hurts. They appear to have accomplished that objective here, unless it was an entirely different gang that conducted the ambush, assuming there was one.

I prefer chess to counting up dead bodies and deciding which side was morally superior.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:28 AM

"all told there are about 100,000 private security personnel working in Iraq"

The figure put out here is Oz is 182,000... (that is contracted by the US only...)


"how many of the attacks on these convoys are criminal and not politically motivated at all?"

... and the local civillian bystanders caught in the crossfire, care in what way?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:27 AM

I most certainly think it highly likely that they overeacted Charley. And one of the causes for that over reaction could be whenever stuck in a hostile situation (Incident triggered by a car bomb) the memory of what happened to those four Blackwater employees who were burnt alive then dragged through the streets and hung on that bridge in Fallujah must come to mind. That I thought I made quite clear in the last paragraph of my last post.

You miss the point as usual Foolestroupe - every incident in Iraq is attributed to the "insurgency" by the media in the West - As with the kidnappings much of what happens is simply criminal activity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:34 AM

No excuses, please.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:25 AM

"Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!"? - as the other killing machine put it "I'll be back"


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM

"You miss the point as usual Foolestroupe - every incident in Iraq is attributed to the "insurgency" by the media in the West - As with the kidnappings much of what happens is simply criminal activity."

As I said... "and the local civillian bystanders caught in the crossfire, care in what way?"

Those left alive, that is...


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:49 PM

Teribus, I don't find a news story saying those Blackwater operatives were "burnt alive". I thought they were killed and then their bodies were burned and then dragged through the streets before being hung from the bridge. Do you have a link?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM

...much of what happens is simply criminal activity...

I think most people would agree about that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM

Since this war is about oil (teribus take note), private security firms are no more than the private armies of the oil barons. They have no business being in Iraq and claiming that they are somehow protecting America.

Like most contractors, when they get caught with their pants down, they just change their pants. Blackwater will change their name and/or their employees will be hired by other private contractors. There is no end to the problem of mercenary warfare because, by now, most of America realizes that their kids are being used as cannon fodder. The U.S. military simply does not have enough enlisted personnel to continue this useless war nor do U.S. citizens have the stomach for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 AM

"Like most contractors, when they get caught with their pants down, they just change their pants"

So true & we're the ones paying for those pants & the laundry bill. Never mind having to put up with the sink & being told they're shit smells like ice cream. How insulting!

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:53 PM

I suppose the blackwater mercenaries may be thinking about the Fallujah incident but the same goes for those Iraqis whos family members died when their car got too close to (either Blackwater/US troops etc).
'cept the only difference is that the former are occupiers.

interesting that there are few available stats as to the number of contractors killed in Iraq (a new york times article from may listed as 917)


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Subject: They're baaaack!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070921/ts_afp/iraqunrestuspolitics_070921094108


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

As Saul says, They're back. Big surprise, huh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:18 PM

Says it all really doesn´t it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

If ya go where the bullets fly, you shouldn't be surprised if ya get hit by one of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:13 PM

That reminds of how silly it sounds when somebody says, 'He/They dodged bullets all the way.' Right.

Remember the old western movies where a head pops up then ducks down when the whine or ping of a bullet is heard? Bit late, ackshlly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,TOM
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM

Big surprise, Blackwater got to stay in Iraq. I guess when we turned over the country back to Iraq, we left the fine print small enough so they didnt see the clause that said US companies working there, CAN NOT be under the law of the IRAQI government. That shit is funny. Blackwater is staying and the government cant or the US not that they would can do anything about it. Who is in charge, if a US troop did that they would be brought up on MURDER charges, that place is FUCKED UP.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:08 AM

Read something interesting about this. Article pointed out that while Petraeus is trying to "win hearts and minds" of the Iraqis by, among other things, having US soldiers mix with Iraqis, and even fight side by side, Blackwater is sabotaging his efforts by not mixing at all, and especially by riding roughshod over all Iraqi laws--indeed making it clear that they are a force totally above all law--Iraqi and US. Thereby making Iraqis associate all Americans with this behavior--and bitterly resent--or even hate-- them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:37 AM

This is just another reason we will never win over there, not that its a real war with battles, and enemy troops wearing uniforms and fighting like a real army. We should have our troops do whatever they want like Blackwater, wait there are laws that keep them from being above the law of the land. The Military should be pissed to have those ASSHOLES over there shooting up everything and by there actions getting people to turn against the American troops trying to help Iraq. One step forward, two, shit 5 steps back. WTF.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:40 AM

And now Blackwater is being investigated for smuggling weapons into Iran, that find their way back to Iraq.

                The worst thing that would happen for Blackwater would be for the hostilities to end. They want to make sure that doesn't happen.

                Thank you Dick Cheney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM

Rig--

That's a fascinating accusation--source?


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:21 PM

Front page of Yahoo, and NPR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM

Rig--

Did not see anything on the front page of Yahoo about it. It was on NPR--but so far it appears it was 2 individuals--involvement by the company itself is not proven. However, it could be dynamite if the link is established. Here's hoping the investigation is not cut short due to political pressure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM

If Blackwater has to leave Iraq, they will have to find jobs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

"It was on NPR--but so far it appears it was 2 individuals--involvement by the company itself is not proven."

                     I don't think one would have to look very far into this to understand that these people are making a whole lot more money in Iraq than anything else they're capable of doing. There are probably a huge number of them who would like to see the hostilities continue, especially the management of Blackwater.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:25 PM

I submitted a post earlier, but it seems to have gone away.
             The point was, these people will never see paychecks like the ones they're getting now unless Dick Cheney can start another war before the clock runs out on George w. Bush. Everyone on the face of the planet seems to be able to figure this out except George W. Bush.
             Blackwater folks are extremely motivated to keep the hostilities going as long as they can. From the $200,000.00 a year enlisted people right up through the management.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:27 PM

The 'grunts' aren't that well paid according to a post further up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

Yes, well, maybe I grabbed the wrong figure, but the "grunts" who find themselves in Blackwater now are probably making a lot more money than they've ever made before--and there are ways of avoiding taxes, as I understand it.
                  Most of them have completed their tours in the US Military, and did not re-up in order to join Blackwater. Surely they can see the handwriting on the wall. If the war in Iraq comes to an end, and George W. Bush is unsuccessful in starting a new war somewhere else, they might be looking at a future of flipping hamburgers and pulling weeds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:10 PM

They don't have to give up hope, Rig. There will still be Afghanistan.

But the main question remains: can we tie the weapons-running to the company itself? If that can be done, Blackwater's days in Iraq will be numbered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM

Evidently no one has seen this moorning's report in the newspapers that the Iraqi police HQ at the square had a video survailence camera running the entire period of the incident and there was no indication on the tape of any initial attack on the convoy that Blackwater was guarding.

Maybe this incident still has legs.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM

I don't know about Blackwater's employees selling arms - but I do know the US government aren't so good at controlling their own arms supplies.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6407177


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:29 AM

Charley, that's all over the Aussie news.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM

They're back

Sincerely, Gargoyle


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:46 PM

Yes, Garg, but unlike "The Aliens" they have nowhere else to go...


:-E|


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:47 PM

Yeah. Things kinda dried up in New Orleans . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM

Gee, it looks like the thread title was a bit premature.

From the WSJ today 5 April 2008:

"The State Department said it will renew Blackwater's contract to protect diplomats in Baghdad for one more year."


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:28 AM

We MUST get control of our government! Our reputation is in the crapper along with trillions of dollars.
Making Obama president is a start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

Blackwater is also being represented by Mark Penn's firm--which of course is also representing Hillary-- I hear. No hard confirmation so far--but, if this so, it would be worth publicizing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: MuddleC
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

Someone asked for an estimate of contractor deaths in Iraq, -follow the link below

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Contractors.aspx

and some insight into the Fallujah incident and the guys killed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/contractors/highrisk.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

Maybe the governemnt is scared of Blackwater...

"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep
Starts when you're young and afraind
Step outta line the man come and take you away..."

Any other "Jericho-heads" out there???

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

Bobert--

Jericho-heads? Context?   I thought this was from "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:10 PM

Blackwater: a well-regulated Michigan militia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:07 PM

My tuppence, as usual - to me Blackwater seems to be part of a trend towards private armies. Let me explain. Private armies actually have been a part of western tradition (and elsewhere) for centuries. But as states / monarchs etc., grew in influence and consolidated their central power, these private armies were either forcibly disbanded or incorporated into the state's army. A modern example is Bosnia, where private armies under the control of various warlords provided the backbone of Bosnia's defence until they were annexed / incorporated by the fledgling Bosnian government once it had the muscle to do so. But their leaders were often laws unto themselves.

One of the most obvious historical examples are the various condottieri of medieval Italy. These large mercenary armies (composed largely of foreigners and often several thousand strong) roamed Italy in the 1300s seeking employment from one master or another, looting the land and sacking cities in between. They were used by the various Italian city states or Lords to stage war on each other, and it wasn't unusual for them to turn on their former masters under service to a new master once their contract had expired. They were a major thorn in the side of Italian life of the time and it was better for all once they diminished.

In an age where privatisation is being touted by neo-cons as a cure-all for all our ills it doesn't surprise me to see a trend towards private armed forces hiring out their services. 'Security service' could just as easily be another name for mercenary. Ok, you could point out that Blackwater would be unlikely to offer their services to just anyone who asked. But there are good reasons for this - patriotism to the US is possible, but I guess other factors come into play - Centralised governement is still too strong for a situation like the Condottieri to emerge just yet, plus any 'private security' firm that offered its services to the "other side" knows it would find itself at gunpoint with superior state forces (and perhaps former comrades).

But with their heavy weaponry and fleet of helicopters etc., groups like Blackwater are starting to look too much like a private army for comfort. There is a world of difference between this and say, a bouncer on a nightclub door, or a single armed security guard in a bank. Moreover, a state army under the control of the government does not need to be at war in order to earn a salary. Most countries continue to maintain armies even in peace time, paid for by the treasury / exchequer. On the contrary, private armies' business is war, they cannot earn a crust without it, so it is in their interest for wars and conflicts to be promoted / maintained / prolonged. This is quite clearly not in the interest of the world at large!

Private armies like these so-called security firms should be discouraged as much as possible or we will in due course end up with warlords and latter-day condottieri.


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