BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Nickhere
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:07 PM

My tuppence, as usual - to me Blackwater seems to be part of a trend towards private armies. Let me explain. Private armies actually have been a part of western tradition (and elsewhere) for centuries. But as states / monarchs etc., grew in influence and consolidated their central power, these private armies were either forcibly disbanded or incorporated into the state's army. A modern example is Bosnia, where private armies under the control of various warlords provided the backbone of Bosnia's defence until they were annexed / incorporated by the fledgling Bosnian government once it had the muscle to do so. But their leaders were often laws unto themselves.

One of the most obvious historical examples are the various condottieri of medieval Italy. These large mercenary armies (composed largely of foreigners and often several thousand strong) roamed Italy in the 1300s seeking employment from one master or another, looting the land and sacking cities in between. They were used by the various Italian city states or Lords to stage war on each other, and it wasn't unusual for them to turn on their former masters under service to a new master once their contract had expired. They were a major thorn in the side of Italian life of the time and it was better for all once they diminished.

In an age where privatisation is being touted by neo-cons as a cure-all for all our ills it doesn't surprise me to see a trend towards private armed forces hiring out their services. 'Security service' could just as easily be another name for mercenary. Ok, you could point out that Blackwater would be unlikely to offer their services to just anyone who asked. But there are good reasons for this - patriotism to the US is possible, but I guess other factors come into play - Centralised governement is still too strong for a situation like the Condottieri to emerge just yet, plus any 'private security' firm that offered its services to the "other side" knows it would find itself at gunpoint with superior state forces (and perhaps former comrades).

But with their heavy weaponry and fleet of helicopters etc., groups like Blackwater are starting to look too much like a private army for comfort. There is a world of difference between this and say, a bouncer on a nightclub door, or a single armed security guard in a bank. Moreover, a state army under the control of the government does not need to be at war in order to earn a salary. Most countries continue to maintain armies even in peace time, paid for by the treasury / exchequer. On the contrary, private armies' business is war, they cannot earn a crust without it, so it is in their interest for wars and conflicts to be promoted / maintained / prolonged. This is quite clearly not in the interest of the world at large!

Private armies like these so-called security firms should be discouraged as much as possible or we will in due course end up with warlords and latter-day condottieri.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:10 PM

Blackwater: a well-regulated Michigan militia.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

Bobert--

Jericho-heads? Context?   I thought this was from "For What It's Worth" by Buffalo Springfield.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:04 AM

Maybe the governemnt is scared of Blackwater...

"Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep
Starts when you're young and afraind
Step outta line the man come and take you away..."

Any other "Jericho-heads" out there???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: MuddleC
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 10:01 AM

Someone asked for an estimate of contractor deaths in Iraq, -follow the link below

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Contractors.aspx

and some insight into the Fallujah incident and the guys killed.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/warriors/contractors/highrisk.html

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

Blackwater is also being represented by Mark Penn's firm--which of course is also representing Hillary-- I hear. No hard confirmation so far--but, if this so, it would be worth publicizing.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: kendall
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 09:28 AM

We MUST get control of our government! Our reputation is in the crapper along with trillions of dollars.
Making Obama president is a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 05 Apr 08 - 08:26 AM

Gee, it looks like the thread title was a bit premature.

From the WSJ today 5 April 2008:

"The State Department said it will renew Blackwater's contract to protect diplomats in Baghdad for one more year."

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:47 PM

Yeah. Things kinda dried up in New Orleans . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:46 PM

Yes, Garg, but unlike "The Aliens" they have nowhere else to go...


:-E|

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM

They're back

Sincerely, Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 06:29 AM

Charley, that's all over the Aussie news.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM

I don't know about Blackwater's employees selling arms - but I do know the US government aren't so good at controlling their own arms supplies.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6407177

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM

Evidently no one has seen this moorning's report in the newspapers that the Iraqi police HQ at the square had a video survailence camera running the entire period of the incident and there was no indication on the tape of any initial attack on the convoy that Blackwater was guarding.

Maybe this incident still has legs.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:10 PM

They don't have to give up hope, Rig. There will still be Afghanistan.

But the main question remains: can we tie the weapons-running to the company itself? If that can be done, Blackwater's days in Iraq will be numbered.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:55 AM

Yes, well, maybe I grabbed the wrong figure, but the "grunts" who find themselves in Blackwater now are probably making a lot more money than they've ever made before--and there are ways of avoiding taxes, as I understand it.
                  Most of them have completed their tours in the US Military, and did not re-up in order to join Blackwater. Surely they can see the handwriting on the wall. If the war in Iraq comes to an end, and George W. Bush is unsuccessful in starting a new war somewhere else, they might be looking at a future of flipping hamburgers and pulling weeds.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:27 PM

The 'grunts' aren't that well paid according to a post further up.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:25 PM

I submitted a post earlier, but it seems to have gone away.
             The point was, these people will never see paychecks like the ones they're getting now unless Dick Cheney can start another war before the clock runs out on George w. Bush. Everyone on the face of the planet seems to be able to figure this out except George W. Bush.
             Blackwater folks are extremely motivated to keep the hostilities going as long as they can. From the $200,000.00 a year enlisted people right up through the management.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

"It was on NPR--but so far it appears it was 2 individuals--involvement by the company itself is not proven."

                     I don't think one would have to look very far into this to understand that these people are making a whole lot more money in Iraq than anything else they're capable of doing. There are probably a huge number of them who would like to see the hostilities continue, especially the management of Blackwater.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:55 PM

If Blackwater has to leave Iraq, they will have to find jobs.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM

Rig--

Did not see anything on the front page of Yahoo about it. It was on NPR--but so far it appears it was 2 individuals--involvement by the company itself is not proven. However, it could be dynamite if the link is established. Here's hoping the investigation is not cut short due to political pressure.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:21 PM

Front page of Yahoo, and NPR.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:57 AM

Rig--

That's a fascinating accusation--source?

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:40 AM

And now Blackwater is being investigated for smuggling weapons into Iran, that find their way back to Iraq.

                The worst thing that would happen for Blackwater would be for the hostilities to end. They want to make sure that doesn't happen.

                Thank you Dick Cheney.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,Bill
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:37 AM

This is just another reason we will never win over there, not that its a real war with battles, and enemy troops wearing uniforms and fighting like a real army. We should have our troops do whatever they want like Blackwater, wait there are laws that keep them from being above the law of the land. The Military should be pissed to have those ASSHOLES over there shooting up everything and by there actions getting people to turn against the American troops trying to help Iraq. One step forward, two, shit 5 steps back. WTF.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:08 AM

Read something interesting about this. Article pointed out that while Petraeus is trying to "win hearts and minds" of the Iraqis by, among other things, having US soldiers mix with Iraqis, and even fight side by side, Blackwater is sabotaging his efforts by not mixing at all, and especially by riding roughshod over all Iraqi laws--indeed making it clear that they are a force totally above all law--Iraqi and US. Thereby making Iraqis associate all Americans with this behavior--and bitterly resent--or even hate-- them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,TOM
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:49 PM

Big surprise, Blackwater got to stay in Iraq. I guess when we turned over the country back to Iraq, we left the fine print small enough so they didnt see the clause that said US companies working there, CAN NOT be under the law of the IRAQI government. That shit is funny. Blackwater is staying and the government cant or the US not that they would can do anything about it. Who is in charge, if a US troop did that they would be brought up on MURDER charges, that place is FUCKED UP.....

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:13 PM

That reminds of how silly it sounds when somebody says, 'He/They dodged bullets all the way.' Right.

Remember the old western movies where a head pops up then ducks down when the whine or ping of a bullet is heard? Bit late, ackshlly.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:19 PM

If ya go where the bullets fly, you shouldn't be surprised if ya get hit by one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:18 PM

Says it all really doesn´t it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:08 PM

As Saul says, They're back. Big surprise, huh.

Subject: They're baaaack!
From: GUEST,saulgoldie
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070921/ts_afp/iraqunrestuspolitics_070921094108

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:53 PM

I suppose the blackwater mercenaries may be thinking about the Fallujah incident but the same goes for those Iraqis whos family members died when their car got too close to (either Blackwater/US troops etc).
'cept the only difference is that the former are occupiers.

interesting that there are few available stats as to the number of contractors killed in Iraq (a new york times article from may listed as 917)

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 AM

"Like most contractors, when they get caught with their pants down, they just change their pants"

So true & we're the ones paying for those pants & the laundry bill. Never mind having to put up with the sink & being told they're shit smells like ice cream. How insulting!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:34 PM

Since this war is about oil (teribus take note), private security firms are no more than the private armies of the oil barons. They have no business being in Iraq and claiming that they are somehow protecting America.

Like most contractors, when they get caught with their pants down, they just change their pants. Blackwater will change their name and/or their employees will be hired by other private contractors. There is no end to the problem of mercenary warfare because, by now, most of America realizes that their kids are being used as cannon fodder. The U.S. military simply does not have enough enlisted personnel to continue this useless war nor do U.S. citizens have the stomach for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:44 PM

...much of what happens is simply criminal activity...

I think most people would agree about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 02:49 PM

Teribus, I don't find a news story saying those Blackwater operatives were "burnt alive". I thought they were killed and then their bodies were burned and then dragged through the streets before being hung from the bridge. Do you have a link?

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:20 AM

"You miss the point as usual Foolestroupe - every incident in Iraq is attributed to the "insurgency" by the media in the West - As with the kidnappings much of what happens is simply criminal activity."

As I said... "and the local civillian bystanders caught in the crossfire, care in what way?"

Those left alive, that is...

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:25 AM

"Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!"? - as the other killing machine put it "I'll be back"

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:34 AM

No excuses, please.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 01:27 AM

I most certainly think it highly likely that they overeacted Charley. And one of the causes for that over reaction could be whenever stuck in a hostile situation (Incident triggered by a car bomb) the memory of what happened to those four Blackwater employees who were burnt alive then dragged through the streets and hung on that bridge in Fallujah must come to mind. That I thought I made quite clear in the last paragraph of my last post.

You miss the point as usual Foolestroupe - every incident in Iraq is attributed to the "insurgency" by the media in the West - As with the kidnappings much of what happens is simply criminal activity.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 12:28 AM

"all told there are about 100,000 private security personnel working in Iraq"

The figure put out here is Oz is 182,000... (that is contracted by the US only...)


"how many of the attacks on these convoys are criminal and not politically motivated at all?"

... and the local civillian bystanders caught in the crossfire, care in what way?

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM

Terribus-

But do you think it is even possible that the Blackwater guards in this instance overeacted, and in doing so created more of a problem for themselves and their clients? Or is the loss of life irrelevant or justified in some way by what was done to the other four Blackwater guards by other Iraqi? I don't follow your reasoning, which is usually quite clear even if I do disagree with you most of the time.

I do agree that Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq has been under increased pressure the last few months and must be desparate to demonstrate that it can still hit where it hurts. They appear to have accomplished that objective here, unless it was an entirely different gang that conducted the ambush, assuming there was one.

I prefer chess to counting up dead bodies and deciding which side was morally superior.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:56 PM

sense of proportion.., thats no different than saying that 3000 killed on 9/11 is about the number of Americans killed by guns in one month.

those thirteen or twenty (what the IRaqis say) is only one incident of many. And in 4 years of activity in IRaq only one Blackwater guy was charged with assault (against another Blackwater employee).
but then they dont have to obey the military code, and they are immune from prosecution.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:39 PM

Privatising every god damn thing up to the president and down to the private is the epitome of corporate control of once was a Constitutional republic that had representatives of the people and by the people at the helm of the goverment of the United States.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 01:07 PM

Four Blackwater employees hung up on a bridge. Hell, there were more than that killed in one road accident on the M4 a few days ago.

Do get a sense of proportion Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:36 PM

"The problem is that the insurgency shows little sign of letting up and ambushing conveys in major cities is an opportunity to embarrass the occupiers, and in this case spotlight the issue of private security firms." - Charley Noble

Over the past year it has shown significant signs of letting up Charley, both in Iraq and in Afghanistan. Contract Security does some convoy protection, I do not know if anybody has looked into it, but how many of the attacks on these convoys are criminal and not politically motivated at all? When kidnapping was the rage in Baghdad seven out of eight were criminal acts done for the money. Way back in the 70's the long distance drivers who drove from western Europe to Tehran had to have "Contract Security" to protect them when driving through the mountains of Iranian Kurdistan. The trick the locals played there was induced rockslides which knocked trucks off the road, they then went down and robbed the cargo.

Blackwater is either the third or fourth largest private security company operating in Iraq, the largest is a British outfit, they reckon that all told there are about 100,000 private security personnel working in Iraq, of which 65% of them are Iraqis. Blackwater's contract is with US government types, high value targets for the likes of Al-Qaeda-in-Iraq. After all their leadership has taken a bit of a pasting, as have their foot soldiers (They lose in less than a year what the MNF has lost in four). They are even worse off now that the Sunni Arabs are turning against them. It's little wonder that they will go after what appears to be softer targets protected by "civilians".

As for being a Blackwater employee out in Iraq, the memory of four horribly burnt corpses being dragged through the streets before being hung up on a bridge, must colour what threshold, or leeway you would allow an innocent by-stander when the shit hits the fan and bullets start flying. Those four corpses were after all Blackwater employees.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 12:03 PM

What's the Problem? We Know an Occupying Army Always Speaks Truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 09:39 AM

The problem is that the insurgency shows little sign of letting up and ambushing conveys in major cities is an opportunity to embarrass the occupiers, and in this case spotlight the issue of private security frims. The private security firms have little accountability to the Iraqi government, or their U.S. employers, and certainly none to their employees who sign waivers of liability in oder to get these high paying jobs.

Evidently the marine security guards that generally protect our embassies are stretched too thin to provide convoy security, and the regular armed forces are similarly constrained.

No wonder Iraqi civilians in Baghdad don't feel particularly secure. And no wonder that the Iraqi government is trying to raise this issue.

One wonders what the real details of the so called ambush by insurgants and reaction by the Blackwater guards actually were. Certainly there is no question that civilians were killed in this incident.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Blackwater kicked out of Iraq!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 07 - 05:44 AM

The fact is Teribus you said they weren´t waging a private war. The Iraq government want to kick them out because they are. I tohught you were in favour of the Iraq goverment running their own counry.

Accidents are accidents, the clue is in the name.

That´s the problem with the far right, no sense of sorrow for those killed.