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BS: The Jena 6 Controversy
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Subject: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:20 PM Thousands of demonstrators are gathering in Jena Mississippi to protest treatment of what are being called the "Jena Six". These are six black teenagers who are accused of beating a white student unconscious at or near the high school which all of the youths attended. The protest is primarily concerning the severity of the crime that one of the six is being accused of. Present are notable black leaders including Martin Luther King III, Jessie Jackson, and Al Sharpton. Here is the background as I understand it: An area beneath a large tree on the High School campus had become a lunch and after-school lounging area for white students to the exclusion of black students. Several black students broke this taboo by lunching under the tree. Soon after, three nooses were hung from a branch in the tree. And shortly after this, a white student was attacked after school by the six black students. The white student was taken to hospital, treated, and releaed the same day. The six were then arrested, and one student charged, apparently, with attempted manslaughter. The protests have apparently arisen over two factors : The severity of the charge against the black student, and the fact that several white students found to have strung the nooses were merely expelled instead of charged with hate crimes. Am I missing something here? First, I believe that the white student who was beaten was not one of those who hung the nooses. Did the fact that nooses were displayed justify violence against someone merely because he was white? I watched a CNN reporter bubbling about how excited she was to be there "because this is solid news...this is what we went to school for". I also heard King III saying "this has all the atmosphere of the civil rights marches of 40 years ago. I'm glad the young people are finally getting a sense of the struggle". Correct me if I'm wrong, but unless these six have been falsely accused, they are certainly lousy examples of martyrs for freedom or equality. And there has been no protest of their innocence as of yet. When I hear King say his Father would have condoned the march and rally, I really find it difficult to believe it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: PoppaGator Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM Jena is in Louisiana, not Mississippi. Another complaint of the protesters is that white students involved in assault (i.e., fighting) ~ not necessarily the same white students who hung the nooses ~ were charged with much lesser crimes, or not charged at all, while black students accused of the same actions were charged with much more serious crimes, with much more severe penalties. While it may be true that the white student who was most seriously beaten may not have particiapted in the hanging of the nooses, we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off? I saw on last night's TV news (local stations in New Orleans) that some properties near the protest site (presumably white-owned homes and businesses) are actually up for sale because of the current controversy. Seems to me like a huge overreaction. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Sorcha Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:53 PM I don't know. I wasn't there. I'm not on the jury and haven't heard the REAL evidence (as opposed to media reports) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 20 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM Didn't this actually happen awhile back? I mean the actual crime for which they are charged. I seem to recall reading about it in another thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:23 PM Sorry about mixing up Louisiana and Mississippi, Poppa. I sound like a Yankee for sure, don't I? Now I have to argue with your statement when, referring to the white beating victim, you said we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off?. This strikes me as a very prejudicial statement. We must assume he had to do something to justify the attack? And what would constitute a legitimate reason for justifying an attack by six persons on one? We clearly need to know more about what happened down there before coming to those kinds of conclusions, and before we make heroes of six individuals who may be guilty themselves of an attack triggered by race-hate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:31 PM I agree with Sorcha. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM The DA supposedly made an inflammatory statement to one of the black suspects, "I can make you disappear with the stroke of a pen". That remark is what Sharpton and the others seem to be concentrating on. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:04 PM Here's more information: "The Jena 6: Since When Do Teenage Boys Watch Lonesome Dove? Posted on Jun 07, 2007 - 1:30pm by Laura in Jena 6, Other Blogs "...Blatant racism is exposed in a small town here in Louisiana, culminating in the burning of the high school and attempted second degree murder charges against six students (the ¡°Jena 6¡å) for a high school fight. The high school in this 85% white town evidently self-segregated, as schools often do, but apparently it became less about choice and more about enforcement because a group of black students found it necessary to ask permission to sit under a tree where white students normally sat. The school administrator told them they were free to sit where they liked, and when they went to the tree the next day, they found three nooses hanging from the branches. Three punks were ¡°quickly¡± identified as the culprits, according to this Chicago Trib article. (I can¡¯t help but wonder if they were quickly identified because they were bragging and laughing it up.) Result: 3 days suspension. ¡°Adolescents play pranks,¡± said Breithaupt, the superintendent of the LaSalle Parish school system. ¡°I don¡¯t think it was a threat against anybody.¡± Pranks?! Roy Breithaupt cannot possibly be that stupid. But if he is, he¡¯s not alone. According to , the three days suspension was justified by > asserting that the noose were merely a silly prank inspired by a hanging scene in the television min-series ¡®Lonesome Dove¡¯. Since when do teenage boys watch Lonesome Dove? Teenage boys watch MTV. They don¡¯t watch western miniseries on the Hallmark channel. Give me a break. A noose is a statement, just as making a motion as if to slit your throat, or pointing your index finger as if it were the barrel of a gun is a statement. And in the south, a noose is a particular pointed, threatening statement. A prank is when you string some guy¡¯s underwear up the flagpole so everyone can see his skidmarks. A prank is a water balloon or filling a locker with shaving cream. A noose? Not so much. As they say at Fark, after the nooses, hilarity ensued. From the Trib article: First, a series of fights between black and white students erupted at the high school over the nooses. Then, in late November, unknown arsonists set fire to the central wing of the school, which still sits in ruins. Off campus, a white youth beat up a black student who showed up at an all-white party. A few days later, another young white man pulled a shotgun on three black students at a convenience store. Finally, on Dec. 4, a group of black students at the high school allegedly jumped a white student on his way out of the gym, knocked him unconscious and kicked him after he hit the floor. The victim ¡ª allegedly targeted because he was a friend of the students who hung the nooses and had been taunting blacks ¡ª was not seriously injured and spent only a few hours in the hospital. But the LaSalle Parish district attorney, Reed Walters, opted to charge six black students with attempted second-degree murder and other offenses, for which they could face a maximum of 100 years in prison if convicted. All six were expelled from school. Second degree murder charges for a high school beating? Reginald M., a Jena High School graduate, has a great summary of all this and some excellent links at Listen to me for a minute. And as one commenter put it, ¡°it¡¯s like the 60¡¯s never happened.¡± This is not just a school problem. It¡¯s a town problem. And the guy who pulled the shotgun on the students at the convenience store evidently wasn¡¯t even charged. But then, if a noose is a prank, I guess that shotgun thing was something for America¡¯s Funniest Home Videos. A slightly different point of view - a local pastor acknowledges the racism, but reminds people that these events were spread out of the course of eight months, and says that the punks with the nooses - were first suspended and then sent to an alternative school off-campus. They underwent psychological evaluations before being re-admitted to Jena High School and even then were separated from the student body at first. Is that enough for the original offense? How much responsibility should these students bear for effects of the chain of events they triggered? I¡¯m not at all sure, but even that pastor writes, "LaSalle Parish is awash in racism: True racism. Not the sort of affirmative action/name-calling/reparations-seeking fluff that keeps Jesse Jackson and liberal do-gooders in business, but a systematic, culture of bigotry, neglected by the scrutiny of time. Here in the piney woods of central Louisiana, where some gentle, old, Christian, white women still call graying black men ¡°boy¡± and some angry, young, Christian, black teens attack pizza delivery trucks that would dare enter their neighborhood, racism and bigotry are such a part of life that most of the citizens do not even recognize it. Cross Highway127 just south of Jena and you enter two different worlds, separated by class and race. If we as Christians face powers, principalities, and rulers of darkness in high places it is certain that part of the spiritual wickedness arrayed against the citizens of LaSalle Parish is hatred born of racism." -snip- http://www.pursuingholiness.com/2007/06/07/the-jena-6-since-when-do-teenage-boys-watch-lonesome-dove/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:06 PM For some reason, portions of that excerpt reproduced with HTML like symbols. Sorry about that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:09 PM What didn't somebody sue in federal court, or file a complaint with the state attorney general? Or maybe they did and it just wasn't newsworthy. How did they finally force that DA in the Duke rape case into court? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:12 PM Blogs- A pox upon them! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: beardedbruce Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM If a group of whites were to attack a black student, what would be the reaction here to the following statement: 'While it may be true that the black student who was most seriously beaten may not have particiapted in the xxxx, we probably need to determine whether he did anything to provoke his being attacked. I find it hard to believe that he would have been singled out for a whupping if there weren't some reason for it. Did he perpetrate some earlier act of violence? Or was he just mouthing off?' What I see is the establishment that it is ok to have a group of one race attack an individual of another, if they feel that they have been insulted, or 'dissed'. Next I suppose we will see marches to establish the right to lynch those uppity **** when they get out of line, and don't know their place. If another group of students ganged up and attacked someone of another race, they should be treated just as severely: REGARDLESS of the race of the group, OR the victim. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:31 PM http://news.yahoo.com/s/huffpost/20070919/cm_huffpost/065010 |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: SINSULL Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM According to tonight's news, the first defendent, age 17, was tried and convicted as an adult. The court agreed that this was overkill and overturned the verdict. No one is saying that these young men did nothing wrong. The complaint is that white students are treated less severely than black. The nooses, in my opinion, should have been considered a racial threat and would have in any school in New York State or Maine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:39 PM From the link I posted: 'The always excellent Wade Goodman of NPR reported what happened next: "The next night, 16-year-old Robert Bailey and a few black friends tried to enter a party attended mostly by whites. When Bailey got inside, he was attacked and beaten. The next day, tensions escalated at a local convenience store. Bailey exchanged words with a white student who had been at the party. The white boy ran back to his truck and pulled out a pistol grip shotgun. Bailey ran after him and wrestled him for the gun. After some scuffling, Bailey and his friends took the gun away and brought it home. Bailey was eventually charged with theft of a firearm, second-degree robbery and disturbing the peace. The white student who pulled the weapon was not charged at all.' |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:48 PM Note that there is some dispute about whether the six Black students {Jena 6} or any other Black students kicked White student Justin Barker when he was knocked down to the ground. See these comments from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jena_Six that I have put in italics for emphasis: The assault On December 4, 2006, Jena High School student Justin Barker, age 17, was assaulted by other Jena High students. According to reports, earlier that day Barker, a white student, bragged about how one of his alleged attackers, Robert Bailey, Jr., had been beaten up by a white man the Friday before.[3] Barker, who denies making the comments,[15] was then knocked to the ground after being hit in the back of his head. From there, according to white witnesses, a group of black students followed suit by repeatedly kicking him, though black witnesses deny that this occurred.[15] Barker, who was left unconscious after the attack, was examined by a doctor at the local hospital. In the meantime, the six students accused of the attack, eventually dubbed the "Jena Six",[16] were arrested. Barker's injuries After two hours of treatment and observation for a concussion and an eye that had swollen shut, Barker was released from the hospital. He was able to attend his school's Ring ceremony that evening,[7] though he later testified, "I waited 11 years to go to it. I wasn't going to let that get in my way," and that he ended up leaving early due to pain.[17] During the trial, Barker also testified that his face was badly swollen after the attack and that he temporarily lost vision in one eye for three weeks. He also stated that he suffered recurring headaches since the attack, though he admitted that tests have shown no medical cause.[17] |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:50 PM Several have already hit on it, but this is about equality of treatment by the authorities, both civil and school. The cases have been picked up and backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center who are providing the defense attorneys. Everyone here was in the wrong but it seems that the "punishment" and/or charges fell along racial lines and did not always fit the crime. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:57 PM Charge reduced in 'Jena 6' case Change made on day jury was to be picked By Howard Witt | Tribune senior correspondent June 26, 2007 HOUSTON - The district attorney prosecuting a racially charged beating case in the small Louisiana town of Jena abruptly reduced attempted-murder charges Monday against a black high school student accused of attacking a white student, drawing cautious praise from civil rights leaders who contend the charges were excessive and part of a pattern of uneven justice in the town. Mychal Bell, 16, a former Jena High School football star, and five other black students had been facing the potential of up to 100 years in prison if convicted of attempted murder, conspiracy and other charges for the December beating of the white student, who was knocked unconscious but not hospitalized. The incident capped months of escalating racial tensions at the high school that began after several white youths hung nooses from a tree in the school courtyard in a taunt aimed at blacks. But as jury selection was about to begin in Bell's case Monday, District Atty. Reed Walters reduced the charges to aggravated second-degree battery and conspiracy to commit aggravated second-degree battery, which together carry a maximum of 22 years in prison. Walters, who is prosecuting Bell as an adult, also offered the teenager a plea agreement including a suspended sentence, which Bell's father said the youth rejected... Bell's father, Marcus Jones, said Monday that even though his son has been jailed since December and unable to post $90,000 bail, he preferred to take his case to a jury rather than plead guilty to a felony. "The DA is trying to use my son as a scapegoat for these ridiculous charges," Jones said. "He knows there's no proof showing that my son and those other kids were trying to kill that boy. It was a simple high school fight. How can you turn that into attempted murder?" Darrell Hickman, an attorney for one of the other youths charged in the case, said he expected the charges against the other defendants would eventually be reduced as well. And he asserted that even the reduced charges would be hard to prove. "I think the district attorney is still overreaching," Hickman said. "The new charge is aggravated second-degree battery, which requires use of a weapon. There's no evidence that any weapon was involved." http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-jena_wittjun26,1,3186370.story |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:05 PM "Bell, 16 at the time of the December attack, is the only one of the "Jena Six" to be tried so far. He was convicted on an aggravated second-degree battery count that could have sent him to prison for 15 years, but the conviction was overturned last week when a state appeals court said he should not have been tried as an adult." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070920/ap_on_re_us/school_fight;_ylt=Aia19vEEZqzubJOFDadlzdus0NUE |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM CAUTION Bobert Rant Well, I've been talkin' about this on various threads going back to my coming to this joint some, ahhhhh, many years ago but, folks... ... this ain't about one particular case here but out entire culture... We collectively ***refuse*** to revisit our history in a rsponsible mammer, discuss slavery, discuss Jim Crow and discuss a way to "repair", (yeah, friggin' repair...) what white people have done to black people... Bill Clinton tried to get a discussion going back 'round '96 but met with the same ol' Southern knee-jerk reaction... That reaction has become almost as predictable as the sun coming up in the east and settin' in the west... Well, I get along fine with them folks and I don't think I should pay for nuthin' my grand-daddy did... I'm so sick of hearing this horsesh*t mantra that I could puke... Of course we need to talk about what our grand-daddies did... We need to get beyond white arrogance that all is well... All is not well... We are perpetuating the same mythology... We are perpetuating the same culture where ehite kids don't get it that puttin' up a noose is more than just just a high school prank... If these kids want to do pranks then do them as intergarted people and go off and steal the other high school's mascot suit... That is a prank... A noose is not a prank... Hey, I know what I talk about here... I was brought up in "liberal" Northern Virginia... Hey, racism was rampant... I remember fighting with black kids from the "black' high school... Why???... Danged if I knew then but I fully understand it now... Racism is so much part of the US culture that white folks think because they go see a black performer that makes them "whole" and "pure" and so, so friggin' liberated??? Then soemthin' like this happens and folks line up along racial lines... I'm sick to my stomach of white people thinking they are so "classless and free when they are all fuckin' peasants as far as I can see" (John Lennon)... Yerah, John hit the nail on the head... This is a white problem that has spilled over to our balck brothers and sisters... White people need to have a converstaion... White people need to seperate the mythology from history... White people have the power to bring about a conversation... Black people don't... White people are on trial here in Jena, folks... Yeah, white people will do everything in their power to try the divert attention away from their part in culture they have created where white kids think it's "cool" to atogonize black students with symbols of hatred... Like I said, Jena is a white problem... White people are on trial here... White mythology is on trial... White lies are on trial... This, I believe, is what Dr. King would be saying... Rant over... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM Yes, personal & institutional discrimination because of race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, gender, age, and/or sexual orientation, is part of the United State's history and is still part of its present. And yes, Black people and other people of color have been and continue to be victimized by institutional racism in the United States more than White people. However, that doesn't mean that we {Americans} should make White people the new Boogyman. I believe that the issue is one of power vs powerlessness. Here's a question for you-who does it benefit for White people to feel that they are better than Black people {and vice versa}? And who does it benefit for White people and Black people to fight among themselves? In my opinion, the conflicts between Black Americans and White Americans are beneficial only to those who have the real economic & political power in this nation-and those people who have the real power sure aren't most of the White people and most of the Black people in this country. Furthermore, a group of people can make and enforce unfair, discriminatory laws against people who are from their same "race" if not their same ethnicity or religion etc. Rwanda is an example of this in Africa. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:50 PM I should have said that the tragedy of Rwanda is much more than the making and enforcement of unfair laws by people of one ethnicity against people of another ethnicity who are members of the same race. Regardless of the fact that these two groups of people are from the same race, one word that best describes what has been happening in Rwanda is genocide. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:20 PM Thanks to Azizi for the added background. One major piece of information has been omitted thus far.THIS IS MYCHAL BELL'S 5th ARREST FOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY. The County Prosecutor, who is a black man, has explained that the 2nd degree murder charges were brought not only because of the heinous nature of the attack (Bell reportedly stood on the victim's head while he was kicked), but because of the escalating violence of the assaults. Is this guy your argument for reparations, Bobert? Cause it ain't a very strong one. As in the Duke Lacrosse rape case, the media and the black leadership, as well as Bobert, are all to ready to pass judgement before they know anything about it. And once they've passed judgement, they'll spend their time righteously justifying their error. Where was the black leadership when the nooses were hung? Not in Jena, because it just wasn't a big enough story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM Yeah, Mizzy, but it's the white people who control the media, the government and just' about everything else that is needed to carry US into a new era... Dr. King held the microphone for just as ,onmg as white America thought he should (or could) and then white America gunned him down... Please don't apologize for what white America has done... Yes, some white Americans have come a long way since the 60's but too many have "fallen back" on the ol' culture... The Southern culture where as long as "the Negro" acts nice then "the Negro" can be our buddy and we can go fishin' together... Maybe a ball game... But this is all dependent on "the Negro" to act in a subservient manner... I have seen it all my life... But let "the Negro" have real opinions on why he or she can't get a job at... or be paid the same as... or go to this or that and "the Negro" falls in disfavor... That's the way it is in the South... I fear that's the way it is in other places, too... I mean, if we are to ever achieve "intergration" then we're going to have to get the rednecks seperated from the nooses and the microphones... We had an elderly, and quite conservative, couple for lunch today... They are gardeners and we have that in common... But to hear what they had to say had me washin' dihes and cleanin' up the kitchen fir fear of screamin' them off the farm... Yeah, UI bit my tongue because the P-Vine is fond of the elderly lady because of their gardening interests but it took all my discipline to not make a major scene... All of it... It is hard being white these days....Very hard... I can't apologize for all white people when I'd love to do so... I can do it here in cyberworld hopin' that some cyberspy don't turn me in and it comes known to my neigbors that I don't approve of their ideas abnout blacks being the problem... But I think that I can be a difference in bringing black performers into "Hooterville" in the hopes that theese rural Virgina whiote folks will have their cultures challenged.... It's about all I can do tho it ain't much on the local level... Yeah, I live in an area where white kids would think a noose might be a childish prank... Where their parents would blame black people for over-reacting if some of their kids took offense... It ain't easy... We need to collectively, as a nation, say that Jim Crow was some of America's most screwed up history... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bill D Date: 20 Sep 07 - 09:42 PM There were some foolish actions taken by BOTH black & white kids in this series of incidents....and now, sides are being taken, not about what actually happened, but on 'history' and perceived attitudes. Once Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson arrive on the scene, the issues are shoved WAY beyond whether this was "just a high school fight" or not. There should have been an IMMEDIATE effort to find who hung up those nooses, and the guilty ones suspended....and the same with the kids who attacked and beat the boy. Serious criminal charges involving 20+ years in prison are way out of line, unless more evidence than accusations are offered. This is escalation...on both sides. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:42 PM Lonesome J, imo, a person doesn't have to drink from the well and kell over and die to prove that the water in the well has been poisoned. Imo, what is going on in that Louisiana town {if not the entire Louisiana county} is suspect given the personal and institutitional racism of that town of Jena and in that county, racism that has been reported by Black and by White people in that town, racism which is typified by the inequities of the school officials and police's actions and lack of actions in the assault case in which the White student Justin Barker received injuries that did not even result in him being hospitalized, but which led to the arrests, charges, and imprisonment of the "Jena 6". And also the actions and lack of actions that have been documented in that town, including and subsequent to the hanging nooses. Regardless if Mychel Bell's four previous arrests for assault & battery were justified {and having no information about those charges, given the town's and county's institutional racism I wonder whether any or all of those previous charges were justified}, I certainly still do not feel that the initial charge of murder with regard to the Justin Barker assault was justified or that the reduced charge {and I believe conviction} for 2nd degree murder is justifiable. And btw, it doesn't matter to me that the County prosecutor is Black, White, or Green. Imo, and as Spaw wrote upthread, that charge of 2nd degree murder did not fit the crime that was committed. ** Bobert, if the "Please don't apologize for what white America has done..." statement is directed to me, my 20 Sep 07 - 08:45 PM is not an apology. Nor is it a request for an apology. That post is a statement of facts and a consideration of motives as I see them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 20 Sep 07 - 10:55 PM Oops! Lonesome EJ, please excuse me for calling you out of your name. I didn't do that on purpose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Sep 07 - 11:50 PM "The cases have been picked up and backed by the Southern Poverty Law Center who are providing the defense attorneys..." The NAACP Legal Defense Fund has offered to provide the kids with attorneys. That would be much better for them and for the court proceedings that for an organization as contraversial as the Southern Poverty Law Center to interject itself into the mix, probably for motivations of its own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:31 AM Whoa! With all due respect, Riginslinger, the SPLC has a long history of advocacy for victims of racial bias, i.e. hate crimes. I've met with and discussed such with Morris Dees. If they are interested in this case it is because they see merit in the defence of those charged with the crime. The only controversy I've ever seen of them is when they win a case and a KKK member has to turn over all of his property to the mother of a young man he murdered. I am sure some of the other KKK types weren't too happy with that. There are many more cases of such. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:45 AM Azizi, Lonesome J works just as well. I don't know a thing about Bell's history other than what the District Attorney said, and he seemed like a reasonable and articulate fellow. Was Bell, because he is black, persecuted in Jena to the point where he's accumulated 5 assault arrests in his 16 years? Possibly. I don't know enough about the case to say definitively yes or no. Was a charge of attempted 2nd degree murder justified? I doubt it. But I have heard nothing that leads me to believe Bell did not, with five friends, assault and knock unconscious the white teenager. I don't doubt that racism is endemic to small towns all over the south, hell, all over the midwest, and the southwest too. But thousands marching to protest harsh treatment for a band of thugs ONE YEAR after the noose incident? This ain't marching for voter's rights in Selma, folks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,yawn Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:59 AM Mexican gang members in southern California have "shoot on sight" rules regarding blacks. I don't watch TV, but I assume thousands of reporters are swarming southern Cal covering that story, right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,PMB Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:12 AM There was a good article in the UK Guardian a few days ago. This one- eyed application of the law is not confined to the USA though. The terrorism panic is creating similar asymmetries in the UK. It's impossible to get juries to convict racist activists, but for Moslems in partuicular, to be accused is to be convicted. And on one of the few occasions when a racist was convicted of terror crimes- he was stockpiling bomb making materials- he was allowed every benefit of the doubt and given a short sentence. Whereas a Moslem covicted of possessing not actua;l explosives, but merely links to web pages about explosives, can expect a sentence ten times as long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM It is unfortunate that Sharpton, Jackson and other of their ilk with their agendas and their dupes descended on Jena. The young troublemakers (and arsonists?) of both races should have been dealt with early on. I suspect school authorities failed to take action because of fears of being accused of racism and the situation was allowed to simmer and finally boil over. The townspeople wisely stayed indoors and closed most businesses during the invasion, and the mixed race police of the town and county wisely kept a low profile. Sadly, normal relations will now be set back for a long time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Wilfried Schaum Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:39 AM So it is in the land of the free and the home of the brave: The whites have the privilege to be free, and the blacks have the privilege to be brave (Vietnam, Irak etc.) Is it still waving? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:46 AM Anger in search of a cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Alba Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:48 AM Slight drift. Interesting post there Wilfried. I saw a shocking and at the same time wonderfilled touring exhibition a number of Years ago in Glasgow Scotland. It was about the History of the Native Americans and the impact of Settlers on their Culture and Lives. What has remained stuck in my Memory was the very last room of the exhibition which had only two very large sepia colored photographs on opposite walls. One was of a young Sioux Warrior hanging from a tree with 'white' men posing beneath the corpse with their rifles. The other very large photograph was of another young Sioux Warrior in full battle dress on his Horse. The background soundtrack playing in this sad room was the very line you mention being sung over and over again. " Land of the Free and Home of the Brave " I have not yet arrived at my own personal opinion regarding "The Jena 6 controversy" Best to all. Jude |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: jacqui.c Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:07 AM I agree with Bill D and Q. From the little that I have learned about this case it does sound as though the local authorities in general did too little too late to prevent the escalation. All the principals seem to be teenage boys - testosterone charged and tending to see violence as the answer to problems, whatever their race or creed. The school, at least, should have been aware of the way in which this could escalate and should maybe have been making more effort to arbitrate between the groups. At this point it would be very difficult to go back and unravel all the threads that knit this together, but that would be the only thing that might actually lead to some sort of real justice being done. Problem is, IMHO, once the likes of Sharpton and Jackson get involved the whole thing just gets blown up to a point where it is almost impossible for a non confrontational solution to be found and the actual facts get buried under the hate rhetoric from both sides. Just my five cents worth, anyway. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:11 AM "Whoa! With all due respect, Riginslinger, the SPLC has a long history of advocacy for victims of racial bias, i.e. hate crimes." I agree that sometimes they seem to be on the right side of history, but I would rank Morris Dees right up there with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They're really in it for the self aggrandizement it brings to themselves. Considerations for victims definitely takes a back seat with these people. Just my opinion. I think the kids would be better off with good stable legal representation, that moves forward with the defendant's interests at the center of their focus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:12 AM Who, in their right mind, would tell a group of Black students in a small Louisiana town to just go and sit under a tree that had been the exclusive territory of "white" students, without anticipating, and preparing for some "culture shock"? When the "responsible" leaders in a community don't deal with these issues when they come up, it falls to the irresponsible leaders, who are the noose-hangers and the headkickers--and when Fox News and Al Sharpton show up, you've lost big time-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 10:19 AM Looks like one big CF. Next there'll be tents set up and the circus will start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:43 AM You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Riginslinger, though I totally disagree with you on your take on Morris Dees. The man is completely committed to fighting racism and inequality without any self-aggrandizement, from what I have seen. Incidentally, here's a posting from HateWatch. WARNING - not for the faint at heart: As tens of thousands of people were preparing to make their way to Jena, La., for today's anti-racism rally, white supremacists were burning up the Internet with furious denunciations, bloody predictions, promises of future violence, and calls for lynching. "The best crowd control for such a situation would be a squad of men armed with full automatics and preferably a machine gun as well," is how one person put it on the Web forum hosted by the neo-Nazi Vanguard News Network. Added another hopeful VNN poster: "I'm not really that angry at the nogs [a recent variation on an ancient racial slur] — they are just soldiers in an undeclared race war. But any white that's in that support rally I would like to … have them machine-gunned." As the rally began to unfold this morning, it became clear that it would attract huge numbers of people, perhaps even the 40,000 that some organizers had predicted. They came to protest the case of the "Jena 6," black youths who were charged with serious crimes for an attack on a white youth not long after white teens who had targeted blacks were let off with a slap on the wrist. White supremacists reacted with a strange mixture of anger and admiration for the organizing behind the rally. But the dominant response was violent rage. "I think a group of White men with AK rifles loaded with high capacity magazines should close in on the troop of howler monkeys from all sides and compress them into a tight group, and then White men in the buildings on both sides of the shitskinned hominids shall throw Molotov cocktails from above to cleanse the nigs by fire," wrote "NS Cat" on VNN. Another poster fantasized about a terrorist attack in Jena today: "Wouldn't that be sweet? Gosh darn, wouldn't that be sweet? Good LORD wouldn't THAT be SWeeeeEET? Boom, Boom, no more Coon! Well? A White man can dream can't he?" "If these blacks want a race war," added a poster on Stormfront, another white supremacist Web forum, "they will get one. Bring it on." In Roanoke, Va., an especially virulent purveyor of race hate, neo-Nazi Bill White, this afternoon posted the home addresses and phone numbers of five of the six black youths who make up the Jena 6 under this headline: "Addresses of Jena 6 Niggers: In Case Anyone Wants to Deliver Justice." White, the leader of the American National Socialist Workers Party, suggests that readers "get in touch and let them know justice is coming." Another White posting on the matter doesn't hold anything at all back: "Lynch the Jena 6." Robert Moore, a well-known neo-Nazi leader from Baton Rouge, La., apparently abandoned plans he had discussed on Stormfront Wednesday to protest the Jena rally, possibly while carrying guns. Instead, he wrote later, "If they DO start rioting and looting and burning and raze the town to the ground, White Pride Construction will be there the next day to help them rebuild." In fact, Moore's company, started in 2005, has done a great deal of post-Katrina rebuilding on the Gulf Coast — a truly remarkable thing, given that its name includes a widely known racist slogan. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:12 PM With regard to the desire that things go back to normal in Jena, Louisiana before Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and thousands of protestors came to that town for protest marches: "Normal" was having the tree where only White students could sit. "Normal" is having White people get off with only a slap on the wrists if that for crimes they commit, while Black people get charged with and convicted of 20 years and other ridiculously long charges for the same or similar type of action. What is normal in Jena is the fact that Mychel Bell, a Black teenager was charged with attempted murder for a teenage fight in which the White teen wasn't even hospitalized. Mychel Bell is still in jail on $90,000 bond. And I believe that he might still have had that attempted murder charge if bloggers and other advocates of justice- {I am referring to Black bloggers, White bloggers, and bloggers of other races} had not directed cyberspace attention and advocacy to this travesty of justice. Jackson and Sharpton are Johnny come latelys regarding this case. However, if they help to keep media attention to this case so that justice will finally be served and a better, equitable "normal" develops in the town of Jena-I say good on them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:44 PM Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed equally under the law, nor should they be. Let's put aside the race implications for just a moment. If I tell someone I will hang him, that can be treated as a threat, and that person could take out a restraining order on me. If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious (whether he's subsequently hospitalized or not), that is a clear assault. I know you will reply that the race implications can NOT be put aside, but the basic charges under the existing system of law require some order, predictability, and consistency. Within that context, should other factors such as race-hate be taken into consideration? Certainly. Should the case of Mychal Bell be a precedent for changing the way our laws are enforced? It certainly doesn't seem to me so. Do we need to change our racial attitudes? Absolutely. But my God that's difficult to do. I routinely receive jokes via email from otherwise intelligent and educated white folks that contain the same old tired and mean racist jokes. I'm frankly sick of their assumption that because I am white it's ok. I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well. I don't know what it will take to end it, but I can't see that the Jena 6 situation does anything but provoke more polarity and anger. It seems clear to me that the supposed persecution of Mychal Bell as a cause celebre' for the abolition of repression is counter-productive in uprooting the deeper racial problems that plague us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: kendall Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:50 PM No one ever has the right to throw the first punch. Ever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:55 PM "If, however, I jump him with five of my companions and beat and kick him unconscious...that is a clear assault. No, it is battery, maybe attempterd murder. Assault can be as benign as standing in front of someone who wants to walk down the street unobstructed. "I also believe that some of this closet hate must go on in the black community as well." Listen to Rap. The hatred is right out there and "in your face". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM All that said, so fuckin' what? The kids have not been treated fairly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Azizi Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM Thanks, Peace. That is my point. And that said, I've said all I want to say in this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:02 PM "Azizi, do you really equate the noose display with the assault? I don't see it as equivalent, and I don't think the two matters are viewed equally under the law, nor should they be." In fact, in the legal definition of 'assault' the display of a lynch-noose to an African American is ABSOLUTELY an assault, where Law. an unlawful physical attack upon another; an attempt or offer to do violence to another, with or without battery, as by holding a stone or club in a threatening manner. I commend to you the web site Lynching in America to educate yourself as why this particular symbol of white supremacy is so powerful and has been defined as, in and of itself, a hate crime. The noose is to the black person what the swastika or oven is to the Jew. A symbol which cannot be minimized. It means 'murder' to any black man or woman who would dare violate Jim Crow's rule of 'law' or the myriad non-codified matters of practice that made up racist America. The 'White Tree,' the noose for the black kid who'd dare to sit under said tree; all of it was violence and incitement to violence. The dirty rotten irony is that the same white men (and one man who appears to be black only on the outside) who set up and tolerated the very conditions leading to the inevitable result of racial violence are now tut-tutting over the outcome when it happened. "The men who spurred us on, sit in judgment of our wrongs." If the Federal Government will step in and take over a school system because of 'No Child Left Behind' test scores, they ought to take Jena's over because those children are being left behind in the middle of the Jim Crow era as regards their personal ethics. There's only one thing wrong with what Azizi said---- the word 'blogger' is now considered offensive, and that group now prefers to be referred to as 'Blogging-Americans.' :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 02:07 PM Greg: That is one of the best posts I have ever read on Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:23 PM Greg B, are you an attorney? Frankly, the bias in the rest of your statement makes me doubt your objectivity on the charges. Who held the noose? And who specifically was it directed toward? You say it is incitement to violence. Was the display of the noose done by the victim of the later violence? And legally, is the "display of a club" equivalent to beating someone with it? Are you saying that the display of the noose was directed toward all black students by all white students, and therefore retaliation by any black student(s) against any white student is justified? When emotion, even understandable emotion, predominates over rule of law, then there is no law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: kendall Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:43 PM I often agree with Rev. Sharpton, but to call 6 guys beating up one white guy a "fight",, that's horse shit. Furthermore, it plays into that old myth that one black guy is ok, but if there are two or more, then they like to cause trouble and act like "Niggers". I've heard that all my life. I was in the service in the early 50,s, and white guys actually believed that. Now, what I saw was just the opposite. It was the white guys who went looking for trouble and getting thrown into jail. We had 4 or 5 blacks in our ship and they didn't even socialize with each other.I never saw them walking the streets looking for trouble. My point is, it's this sort of thing that keeps that myth alive, and believe me, this is not the end of this. Those white boys will get even, and where does it end? The KKK is still alive and just waiting for an excuse to come out from under their rock. I don't give a damn who you are, what your history is, whether or not you have been insulted, no one has the right to throw the first punch. Finally, those idiots who hung the nooses need some lessons in rising above redneck stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:18 PM The whole thing has been one fuck up after another. No part of it has been handled properly, and thus, the media show. I can't see where anyone is saying 'excuse the behaviors of the Black guys'. But let's not get all so full of ourselves that we forget there are some White guys who had done some bad shit in this. Who's facing court? RIGHT. Same shit, different day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:19 PM BTW, the nooses were reported to the school admin. The bloody board overrode the principal's proposed punishment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM The demonstraters were met by an 18 year old truck driving drunk who was dangling a noose fitted with handcuffs from the back of the truck. It was an attempt to start a riot but to the demonstrators' credit, they called the police. He was arrested, charged with drunk driving and instigating a riot. More charges to follow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: 3refs Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:53 PM Are we allowed to say "It is your right to do whatever you like, provided your not breaking any laws, but in reality, it's probably not a good idea". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:11 PM Peace, what was the Principal's proposed punishment? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:32 PM "The following morning, three nooses were discovered hanging from the tree. Jena's principal learned that three white students were responsible and recommended expulsion. The board of education overruled his recommendation, to which Superintendent Roy Breithaupt agreed. The punishment was reduced to three days of in-school suspension.[3]" |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:39 PM Also from SNOPES. It's worth reading. Cuts out some of the bullshit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:12 PM Lonesome EJ, you don't have to be an attorney to know the definition of assault (or to look it up). All you have to be able to do is read. Nor do you have to be an attorney to know that hanging a noose in a tree as an action directed to an African-American, or painting a swastika on a synagogue, or burning a cross on an African-American family's lawn are all defined as 'hate crimes' in these United States. For very good reasons, rooted in both the present and the past. None of the above are 'free speech.' Not in any sense of the word. And you don't have be a genius to understand what the above actions mean in our society, and what the results are likely to be now that certain groups have decided that they're not going to have their necks stood on (or stretched) any more. You just have to have a lick of common sense. So what's YOUR problem in understanding it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:25 PM From what I can find out, the principal proposed expulsion- this was reported in the Alexandria, LA newspaper. A school district committee changed this to suspension for three days. Mychal Bell's previous battery convictions would have been sufficient to net him serious felony charges anywhere on the December incident. His football ability was all that kept him in school; he no longer was on the team (eligibility expired, academic or other reason?). The other defendants posted bail, but the judge, citing Bell's criminal record, kept the amount for him at $90,000, which the parents refused to post. The District Attorney reduced charges to second-degree battery, and offered a plea agreement including a suspended sentence, but Bell's family refused and went to the media. A judge threw out the conspiracy charges and referred the case to juvenile court, but let stand a conviction for aggravated second degree battery. The State's Third Circuit Appeals Court threw out the conviction on Sept. 14 because he should not have been tried as an adult. The case will be tried in juvenile court unless the district attorney is successful in an appeal. The noose incident, etc., happened a year ago, and the beating took place in December. In the meantime, the arson that destroyed the school's main academic building, seemingly related to the situation, is still under investigation. Looks to me like justice was proceeding slowly, but that often is the case in American courts. If charges result from the arson investigation, look for the whole thing to be blogged to death and tried by outsiders again. Condensed from news items in Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, MSNBC online. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:33 PM The following information is presented as fact. If it is not, please show evidence. The Tree: It does not exist anymore. The city fathers decided to have it cut down and removed. There are pictures of trees on various websites by they are staged photos, some with one or more people. One shows "a tree on campus", but not "the tree". The Incident: Three White kids were charged with putting two or three noose-like pieces of rope in a tree. They were all suspended (in house?) for three days. What they did was rude but it did not violate any specific ban on such actions and it did not break any laws. The Beating "The white teenager who was beaten, Justin Barker, 17, was knocked out but walked out of a hospital after two hours of treatment for a concussion and an eye that was swollen shut." Justin Baker said (sworn testimony): "Justin Barker, 17, testified that he had just come out of his high school gym with his girlfriend walking ahead of him on Dec. 4 when they turned to avoid a group of black students. "I turned my back and somebody hit me, that's all I remember," Barker said. Other students said (sworn testimony): "When I heard a black boy say something to Justin, I turned my head and I saw somebody hit Justin," one student wrote in a statement. "He fell in between the gym door and the concrete barricade. I saw Robert Bailey kneel down and punch Justin in the head. … Then Carwin Jones kicked him in the head. … Theo Shaw tried to kick him so I pushed Theo Shaw down. I also saw Mychal Bell standing over him." Phrases like "stomped him badly," "stepped on his face," "knocked out cold on the ground," and "slammed his head on the concrete beam" were used by the students in their statements. The Beating happened three months after the noose incident and and both the Federal Prosecutor and the local District Attorney said the noose incident and the beating of Justin Baker were not connected. The Injuries: "Justin Barker was taken by ambulance to LaSalle General Hospital's emergency room, arriving at 12:25 p.m., according to court documents. A report from the ambulance company stated Barker 'denies any pain other than his eye'. Once in the emergency room, Barker told medical personnel that he had been 'jumped by 15 guys' and was unsure of what he had been hit with, according to the emergency physician's record in the court file. The record noted an injury to Barker's right eye requiring follow-up medical attention and injuries to his face, ears and hand. A Computed Tomography scan of Barker's brain showed no abnormalities, but there were reports of him losing consciousness during the attack, according to hospital records. Barker was discharged about 2½ hours after being admitted to the ER. Later that night, he attended a ring ceremony at the school, where he was presented his class ring by his parents, something Kelli Barker said her son really wanted to be a part of, even though he was still in pain." "All that keeps being said is that he was just in the hospital for a little bit and not really hurt," Kelli Barker said of Justin. "I thank God he wasn't hurt more than he was. But we have medical bills to show that he really was hurt." The Punishment: Mychal Bell was convicted of aggravated battery. That is exactly what he did. What is the big problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:11 PM pdq, those seem to be the "facts" as presented by the prosecution only. I'd like to see what the defence claimed to refute them. Also, ever heard of how inaccurate witness statements can be ala the blind men describing an elephant? I do not doubt what happened, just how it happened, something none of us will probably ever know. The white kids are going to say one thing and the black kids another. The DA and Fed. pros. are also going to declare the "facts" in a different way than the defence attorneys will. Also, you did not cite your sources. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:46 PM Katlaughing, what you are saying is that law enforcement and court systems are phony, prosecutors, defenders and witnesses are liars, and justice is not blind but biased. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:52 PM Not really, Q, just that they present the "facts" as will serve them best...they may also NOT present them if they feel it would be better for their case. Unless of course you meant that in an ironic fashion, in which case I agree with you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM One website said that The Beating was witnessed by over 40 students, all gave sworn testimony that appeared in court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM What website? Please include a link. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:44 PM What is wanted is the Court record- not who saids- The testimony is a matter of record. Newspapers and court records mention witnesses, some of whom gave testimony, but the total number would have to be an approximation. I doubt that anyone counted them. The number probably was considerable, considering the place and time, but many would deny being there. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:46 PM Yeah, whereas the "noose" is very much the symbol of white were/are willin' to do to "uppity niggers", it ain't the only terror that was used in the South during Jim Crow days... 'Bout 30 years ago I had kinda, ahhhhh, broken into the 14th Street train station in Richmond, Va.... It had been closed for dacades, fallin' into disrepair an' bein' the curious little scavenger I was spend a couple evening's sifting thru stuff and came accross two books, both of which I still possess... These two book, written in long hand, described all the various "accidenst" that the Richomnd work/rescue crew had to respond to... Most were minor... Derailments, ect.... An occasional broken bone but over the 2 year period I found no less than 4 enties were "Negro males, age 20 or so" were found "dead on the tracks, having been run over by a train"... Now I ain't trying to bring this discussion into a purely emotional one but I'd like for each of you folks who have trivialized the "noose" to visualize about being tied to a railroad track with a train just a minute away... I don't believe that white people understand just how much terorism as been brought down upon black people in this country... This stuff doesn't just disappear... The stories are passed down... The terror every much still exists in most of the South ***today***... Yeah, sure, this makes white folks uncomfy... Tough... Do something to stop it other than rationalize why it's okay for white kids to terrorize blacks kids with symbols that are so hate filled that they make swazticas (sp) look like benign little doodling... Hey, for God's sake, wake the heck up, white America... We need to confront the demon that is us... Yeah, lots of folks here goin', "Okay, BObert jus' off on one of his rants" because these folks don't see themselves personally alligned with the white kids who put up the noose... But we are if we gfail to stand up and say, "Nooses = Hate" and do the things that are ***required*** to bring about forces that say in no uncertain terms to the rednecks among us, "Your values are UN-AMERICAN, and if you continue to show them in such a vile manner, we will stick yer dumbass self in jail..." But wait... We need to take it a step further... These kids need not only to be in jail but they also need to be ***habilitated***.... No, not rehabilitated because they have never known anything but hate... We need to start from scratch with these kids as if they were drug addicts... Use the same kinds of treatment modalities that are used on drug addicts.... Why??? Because they are addicted... They are addicted to hate... These kids need help... But as long as the grown ups (haha) are also addicted to hate, this ain't goin' happen soon... But it needs to... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Sep 07 - 09:00 PM "...I totally disagree with you on your take on Morris Dees. The man is completely committed to fighting racism and inequality without any self-aggrandizement..." Kat - I guess we just disagree on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:41 PM Who has "trivialized the noose" Bobert? I agree with Peace that the Principal of Jena High was on the right track with his punishment. Nor did I, or anyone else commenting here, call the use of the noose "free speech" as Greg B implies. We don't have to re-establish the fact that black people are, and have been, the targets of the worst treatment imaginable. The point I'm making (and yes, Greg, I grasp the tenets of your argument although I don't buy it)is that a symbol, no matter how negative, does not justify violence against an innocent individual. And neither does slavery, nor 140 years of segregation, nor unequal sentencing, nor any other cause near and dear to the most noble of civil rights leaders. And you certainly don't pin your aspirations for these noble ideals to the sleeve of a group of violent punks who may well have had nothing but hate motivating their actions. Martin Luther King was a champion of Non-violence for pete's sake! His son may claim that Martin would condone this rally on Bell's behalf. I believe King would have been ashamed of Bell's actions, and would have had the strength to disassociate himself from, and condemn, the violence on both sides. Nooses? He faced police dogs, firehoses, log chains, and worse. And never did he excuse violence from his people in their struggle. He knew it would kill the movement faster than any number of nooses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 07 - 11:51 PM Folks, I don't see that anyone is condoning racism, either by Blacks against Whites or Whites against Blacks. (And if anyone is, then PFO.) What is under discussion is unequal treatment under the law. And if it isn't, it bloody well should be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:38 AM Fair enough, Riginslinger. LeeJ...well said. I don't for a minute believe MLK would have condoned the violence, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,Guest Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:11 AM What I have the most problem with is not the facts, whatever they may be, but how people are responding to these incidents. These 6 boys; the facts should be heard as best they can and the court should do the best it can to find the answer. The three white boys should have been charged with a hate crime for the noose incident. It seems everyone is dividing into racial camps. I am white, and I do not believe, regardless of who did what in that town, that blacks should be treated one way for what happened; yet the white boys who hung the nooses; hardly any action is taken; and life goes on? Are we whites going to sit back and just have blacks protesting (why aren't more whites protesting?) that in small Southern white towns hanging nooses from trees is wrong and treating crimes differently based on race is wrong; and yes! I don't care if it is three months apart; the two incidents are connected and a clear sign of racial tension. If you have a tree, and the answer is not finding an answer but just cutting down the tree, is that really an answer? No! The answer is learning to live together in harmony. I left a small Alabama town when I was 18 in 1976. When I left there, there was one movie theatre. The whites still sat downstairs while the blacks sat in the balcony! God only knows what would have happened (whisperings of KKK) had they dare sit downstairs! This is why I left Alabama ... and this was in 1976!! Many years after Selma and supposed "civil rights reform." There are many good people in the South that are not racist. But when nooses are hung in a school and no one appropriately punishes those boys, you underpunish one group and overpunish another (or perhaps you look at the reasons that fight happened; does anyone here really believe that fight just "happened" without being incited by *something*?? read the Snopes.com article!), you are creating racial tension. Or maybe one of those boys did deserve greater charges than the others. Let the courts sort that out. I agree, if someone, regardless of race, has prior battery convictions, it is going to make matters tougher. However, we also don't know the circumstances of those battery convictions! It is hard to get fair justice in a small, white, Southern town. Read To Kill A Mockingbird. Did you see the interviews on CNN? The special? It brought out sides of Jena that many may not know ... that the town is divided in half ... if you live in one half, you are okay and likely white; if you live on the other half, you are most likely black and banished and the threats of KKK, they don't even have to be whispered in a small town like that. I lived that life and I know all about it. Mychal Bell's parents probably didn't "refuse" to post $90,000; they probably simply didn't have the money! Did anyone read the snopes article about the a black student in Jena attacked by white kids armed with beer bottles? Why weren't they prosecuted?! Only one was, with a misdemeanor. This pretty much says it all about the noose: http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/shipp/lynchingsstate.html Lonesome EJ, I *NEVER* get jokes like that in my email box. Maybe it's the friends you hang out with? Why don't you speak up and TELL them it's not okay? Maybe because to you it doesn't seem so bad? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:10 AM Thanks Guest,guest for the guilt-by-association attack. Your courage is manifested by your little anonymous name tag isn't it? Unless you are living in your Mom's basement and Mudcat is the extent of your social sphere, I suspect you understand exactly what I mean about the casual racism that exists in society. The people I'm speaking of are often intelligent, well-educated, principled individuals. They are often people successful in the business world, and many are decent people who I am proud to call friends. They are not defined by racism, any more than you are defined by your sanctimoniousness. I grew up in a similar racist environment to yours, an environment of segregated schools and neighborhoods, and counted no blacks as friends until college. I was emersed in that environment long enough that I know I have prejudices that I may never fully be rid of. But I am not so burdened with shame that I am ready to excuse any behavior in the light of past iniquities. Your poster boy, I fear, has feet of clay, and much effort will have to be put into polishing up his resume before he can qualify for hero status. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,Chris Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:54 AM Maybe if these 6 guys went to Jail for awhile they would send a message to other black youths to fight 1 on 1. If it was a normal high school fight there wouldnt be 6 guys kicking a guy thats knocked unconscious. When I was high school yes 15 and 16 year olds got in fights all the time, but this jumping someone is bullshit. If it was 6 white students that jumped 1 black student it would be a hate crime and the NAACP would want them in jail for a long time and tired as adults. Yes blacks were treated bad in the past, but the idea that they get a free pass when ever they do stupid shit, is just that stupid.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:47 AM "What is under discussion is unequal treatment under the law. And if it isn't, it bloody well should be." Peace - You're right, that what's really at stake here. When the DA brought those outrageous charges, somebody should have done something about it then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Alba Date: 22 Sep 07 - 10:04 AM Then again Riginslinger there is the 'Law' and there is 'Justice' Sometimes the system works in harmony and one reflects the other but sadly a lot of the time....one has nothing to do with the other unfortunately. One conclusion I have reached quite quickly on this issue is this. At no time, ever, should any white Person regardless of their age anywhere in this Country be led to believe that hanging a Noose from a Tree is a "Prank" It is one of two things. 1. A Hate Crime 2. The actions of a person or persons who are either extremely uneducated or some sad soul(s) who could be seen to fall under the category of a person(s) who are/is unable to grasp the gravity of their actions due to diminished capacity. I do not believe that any of the 3 white students from Jena High are uneducated or could be put under the heading of being 'not responsible for their actions' due to diminished capacity. May I suggest that if I, an immigrant to this Country from Scotland 10 years ago, can fully appreciate the horror behind the symbolic Noose hanging in a Southern Tree then...how could anyone that was born and raised and/or live in the Southern States of the US or throughout the rest of this Country not know the hatred, horror and fear behind this symbol. Ignorance, childish prank or complete insensitivity to other's feelings are not an acceptable reason for making this gesture imo. As I say the one conclusion I have reached personally, out of the many issues on both sides involved in this controversy, is that the act of resorting to using a historically well documented foul symbol of Racial hatred, a symbol which screams Murder. The murder of many Human Beings because of their skin Color. is and will remain to me an act of Hate. I am still looking at the many other issues involved in this Controversy but on this one particular fact that has emerged I feel very strongly. The 3 Students that hung those nooses on that Tree at Jena High should be held responsible for committing a Hate Crime. Maybe this time round it would be better to go Global rather than Local and take this particular issue to the International Court of Justice in the Hague. Maybe it is time to take this issue out of this Country and onto the bigger World stage. Just a thought and as I said earlier this is my own personal opinion on just what I see as the tip of the Jena iceberg.
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: SINSULL Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:16 AM "Mychal Bell's previous battery convictions would have been sufficient to net him serious felony charges anywhere on the December incident" Sorry but given the questions surrounding his recently overturned convictions I have to wonder about the validity of these. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: SINSULL Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:18 AM Any doubt about the meaning of the nooses? Check out the "Strange Fruit" thread. The three should have been expelled and would have in any State where I have lived. This is not a prank. It is a death threat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM Sorry, Lonesome, EJ, if you felt I was personally attacking you... I think you have a good heart but I also think that we may have different opinions about the threat level of the "noose"... I, as well as others, see it historically as a threat... But beyond that, it has also been historically a threat which has been carried out... There have been lynchings in the South in my life time... Black people fully undestand what the "noose" means... Yeah, I am a follower of Dr. King... I have been arrested peacefully in several demonstartions over the last 40 years... But with that said, I also understand the concept of "self defense"... If a man is angry with me and shows me a knife, yeah, it can be argued that the knife is a mere symbol until he cuts me... I don't buy that argument... Samwe with a gun... Same with anything that is used to hurt, maim or kill... To me, the "noose" fills that bill... I agree 100% with GUEST, guest that the white kids should have been brough up on frlony hate crimes... This would have most likely ended it where it started and sent a clear message by the adults in the community that Jim Crow don't live here anymore... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Sep 07 - 12:27 PM Frankly, I'm a little suspicious about the concept of "Hate Crime." It seems like the system is trying to condemn someone for what they are thinking. One could argue that hanging the nooses was a threat, and try to make something out of that, but I'm not sure how you get to the actual intent of the noose hanging without a confession. On the other hand, I would certainly agree with the principal's original punishment. I don't see how the superintedent et al were justified in changing that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:13 PM More about hate crimes: click. And, clickety. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:39 PM Mychal Bell's record of violence cannot be ignored or whitewashed. His request to be freed while an appeal is being reviewed by the judge at a juvenile court hearing was refused. Like all juvenile court proceedings, the hearing (Friday, Sept. 21, La Salle Parish Courthouse)) was closed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 22 Sep 07 - 01:43 PM Well, Rigster... One can think about puttin' up a "noose" 24/7 fir his or her entire life... Fine... (Well, not really...)... It when the thinkin' ends and the acting begins... Hey, I'm sure everyone has thought about some real dumbass stuff... I know I have... But what occurs is that I have this little debate within me and as long as I don't do the dumbass stuff then, ahhhh, all is well... But if I were to do the dumbass stuff then I sho nuff would have to be willing to suffer from the consequences... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 22 Sep 07 - 02:15 PM If Mychal Bell was charged as a juvenile in the previous cases, how did they come to light now? Or, was he charged as a juvenile? Was that why they tried him as a an adult, so they could bring up his past record, if it even works that way, I don't know? I thought juvenile records were always sealed. Did someone "leak" them? just wondering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:02 PM Excellent opinion piece here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 22 Sep 07 - 03:29 PM Too bad these guys lost to gansta rappers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:04 PM "But if I were to do the dumbass stuff then I sho nuff would have to be willing to suffer from the consequences..." But what was it they did? It might have been dumb, but it didn't hurt anybody. Like I said, if somebody took it as a threat, that's what they should have been punished for -- not thinking. If it had been the other way around, and black kids hung nooses in a tree after white students sat there, it wouldn't have meant much of anything at all. If people want equal treatment under the law, they have to settle for equal treatment. If we want different laws for every group in the country, we're going to have one hell of a lot of laws. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:54 PM Mychal Bell's juvenile record. (Only the proceedings are sealed, the charges and the results are public record). Bell committed battery on Christmas, 2005. He was on probation following this assault, when in Sept. 2006 he was adjudicated (juvenile conviction) for two violent crimes, assault and battery (Sept. 2), and criminal damage to property (Sept. 3). He prevously had been charged for criminal damage to property in July, 2006. Another adjudicated case exists, but I haven't seen any information. He was still allowed to play football! He was convicted for second degree battery for the beating of Justin Barker on December 4, the fifth crime. The probation was in effect during these crimes, to end in to January, 2008, when Bell would be 18. (From the Alexandra-Pineville (LA) "The Town Talk." Abbey Brown and reporter Bob Tomkins, Sept. 22, 2007. Town Talk I am surprised that bail was offered to a person on probation and in light of the subsequent crimes. It looks to me like the Attorney General bent over backwards to offer it, although it is permitted in certain circumstances under the Louisiana code. School authorities apparently ignored and covered up the criminal record because of Bell's football ability. The football coach was not informed until late, and kept quiet because the school authorities had. Following the refusal of bail, C. J. Cary, of warfamily.org, VA, said the next demonstration should be held at the Governor's Mansion in Baton Rouge. Report by Abbey Brown, "Town Talk," September 22, 2007, in "The Town Talk," Alexandria-Pineville newspaper. Bell Again Denied Bond Looks like the rabble-rousers may invade again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM Looks like the rabble-rousers actually live in Jena. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:10 PM Sorry, left a gap in the first link- Town Talk LA (and don't nobody mention cutandpaste) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM Well of course the n***** was allowed to play football! Ain't no cotton to tote in Jena, so he had to make hisself useful, and besides, now as the football teams is innegrated, they've figgered out that the n***** was useful after all, even if he ain't invited to the parties after they catch the winning touchdown pass at the Homecomin' game. Sheeit. Well, 'lease it was a white boy that threw it. Maybe he wouldna wanted to come anyways, as it was all Skynrd and Fabulous Thunderbirds on the CD player. (We won't talk about how them steeroids someone's been slippin' the n***** might have sumptin' to do with them con-vittions.) And yeah, Dr. King was into non-violence...look where it got him. Shot dead by some cracker. Non-violently sit under the 'white tree' at George Wallace high school in Jena, and look what it gets you: a noose. Don't tell a man to be non-violent after your kids threaten to lynch him and for their punishment have to pick up litter for 3 days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 22 Sep 07 - 07:20 PM Oh, well, no sense trying to talk to a nutcase. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Charley Noble Date: 22 Sep 07 - 08:18 PM All very sad but there is national focus on this small town and just maybe the forces of hate will dive deep for another decade of so. Unfortunately the issue of racial hatred in the States is never a done deal. And future generations will have to deal with this afgain in a few years. Only the names will be changed. This is probably not my most insightful post. Anyone want to fight? Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Sep 07 - 09:19 PM "...the forces of hate will dive deep for another decade of so." Charley - I don't want to fight, but I think the forces of hate are out there all the time, and it runs deep, and it's not confined to one side. When we see teenaged kids doing things like this, we can only assume they're carrying out the projected attitudes of their parents. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:24 PM The issue is law, not race. As long as folks turn the issue into that of race it detracts from the true crisis to do with Jena. What is under scrutiny, and rightfully so, is the American legal system. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:25 AM Peace, in the last case, Bell was convicted by a jury- it was not judge alone. To those who want to make a racial case out of it, the people of Jena, not just the legal system (it would have to have convicted him regardlss of make-up considering the history of the accused) must be blamed. The jury was all white, therefore it was 100% bigoted and tromping on the poor black. His criminal record, however, - four previous adjudications- can not be ignored, and conviction should have resulted regardless of the jury make-up. With the decision that the case should have been handled in the juvenile courts, a new trial will be held unless the decision is reversed- which it can be if the crime is deemed serious enough. The remaining five of those charged all posted bail (one had $138,000 as the sum). That, of course, is is not what has to be raised; in most jurisdictions 5-10% of the fee is sufficient for a bondsman to handle the case. Anyone can post it except those with criminal convictions. Why didn't the civil rights folks who make so much noise post it for Bell? Did they push him into refusing to post bail in order to push their agendas? The others have not faced court yet, but unless they have prior convictions for crimes, if convicted they may get off with light sentences and remission of criminal record after a period. Why did Bell not post bail when he had the opportunity? It looks like he wanted to get a brouhaha started- he did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,BILL Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:41 AM Well said Q, but some people want feelings involved in law. You at least know that law doesnt work on feelings alone. I hate to drive the speed limit because I like the feeling of speed. So what would happen if I get too many speeding tickets, I would get my license pulled. That guy had a long history of fighting and should be tried as an adult. Does someone hitting another person change the damage to that person because of age when we are talking about 1 year, no.....put him in jail for awhile maybe he learn a lesson and maybe he wont but at least he wont be punching people in the back of the head.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 23 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM Peace - I agree, it is a question of law. The authorities need to insure equal protection under the law. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Leadfingers Date: 23 Sep 07 - 10:15 AM I'll try for a 1ooth on most threads with NO regard to race OR religion |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: bobad Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:00 AM From the FAQ, January 9, 2007: From now on, anonymous posting will be watched and controlled. We've had far too many problems with anonymous posters. If you want to post, use a consistent name. We're not requiring registration, although we certainly prefer that. You may certainly use a pseudonym as a user name, but please use that same name every time you post. If you post without using a consistent name, you risk having your messages deleted. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,different name Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:21 AM The Liberal left is for freedom for everything as long as they dont disagree with them. Thanks for making my point I've blogged this site for a week and I've figured it out. I didnt post anything offensive, just a different view from most people on this site. Dont worry I wont be back |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: jacqui.c Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:27 AM There is plenty of disagreement on this site and the contributors cover the whole political spectrum. There are rules, one of which is to identify yourself when posting. If you had been around the site for more than a week you would be aware of the problems that have been caused by anonymous posters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:37 AM GUEST,different name - You have been around a week, and you managed to use 4 or 5 names, referred to people as dumb, fat and lazy. One of the rules here is that you must use a consistent identity. You have not. You are also rude and nasty. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg F. Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM "New South" my arse. Deja Vu all over again. * Only a Pawn in Their Game Bob Dylan (Copyright 1963; renewed 1991 Special Rider Music) A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood. A finger fired the trigger to his name. A handle hid out in the dark A hand set the spark Two eyes took the aim Behind a man's brain But he can't be blamed He's only a pawn in their game. The South politician, he preaches to the poor white man, "You got more than the blacks, don't complain. You're better than them, you been born with white skin," they explain. And the Negro's name Is used it is plain For the politician's gain As he rises to fame And the poor white remains On the caboose of the train But it ain't him to blame He's only a pawn in their game. The deputy sheriffs, the soldiers, the governors get paid, And the marshals and cops get the same, But the poor white man's used in the hands of them all like a tool. He's taught in his school From the start by the rule That the laws are with him To protect his white skin To keep up his hate So he never thinks straight 'Bout the shape that he's in But it ain't him to blame He's only a pawn in their game. From the poverty shacks, he looks from the cracks to the tracks, And the hoof beats pound in his brain. And he's taught how to walk in a pack Shoot in the back With his fist in a clinch To hang and to lynch To hide 'neath a hood To kill with no pain Like a dog on a chain He ain't got no name But it ain't him to blame He's only a pawn in their game. The day Medgar Evers was buried from the bullet he caught They lowered him down as a king. But when the shadowy sun sets on the one That fired the gun He'll see by his grave On the stone that remains Carved next to his name His epitaph plain: Only a pawn in their game. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:24 PM "They" it seems to me, fit the metaphor "pawn" much more in the context of Al Sharpton's, Jesse Jackson's, and MLKIII's "game, more than in the context of anyone else's "game". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: kendall Date: 23 Sep 07 - 01:10 PM Guest different name, The right are always chirping about constitutional freedoms such as the 2nd amendment but when it comes to freedom of speech, it does not apply to visitors. They don't want to hear what that Iranian "President" has to say. Old military saying: "Know your enemy". |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Sep 07 - 01:19 PM Medgar Evers biography, University of Mississippi website: Medgar Evers A much better tribute than the more than 40-year-old rant by Dylan, typical of the artifacts exhumed by rabble-rousers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:52 PM Oh my gawd, we've been blogged by a nonnie! |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:59 PM Yeah, I reckon no one has bothered to see just how similar what has happened here in Jena ios to the desegregation of the Little Rock schools... Yeah, talk about deja vu'... Here you have a bu8nch of white kids who think it is their God-given right to control a section of publicly owned property... In Little Rock it was the schools... Here, it was a shade tree... But schools/shade tree the underlyin' statement that was being made was one of "white supremecy"... "Hey, we are white and therefore this is mine, mine, mine..." Any arguments here??? Now, TO WIT: Black kids take exception, go to the school and say, "Hey, ain''t this like Jim Crow, 'er somethin'..." and the school says, '"Yeah, okay, kinda" but nuthin' much is done until the white kids threaten the black kids with the "noose", a symbol that not only represents hatred, racism but also a history of black people being lynched... Any arguments yet??? Now, TO WIT, Part B: We have a community of white people who think that it was okay for their white kids to threaten the lives of black kids but not okay for black kids to defend themselves??? Hmmmmm??? This is what this case biols down to, folks... Yeah, I reralize that this joint is made up of primarily white people who probably feel very uncomfortable talking about race... Probably??? Well, for the most part, not at all... I have tried unsecessfully to get the discussion going but most folks here run from it like "pigs from a gun"... Well, here's my prediction... This will get settled and Bell will get out on bail, cop a plea to somethin' real low and get probabtion and white America will have dodged the bullet once again... Man, this just ain't right... (But, Bobert, white America is in control of the power...) Still don't make it right... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:11 PM Yeah, I reralize that this joint is made up of primarily white people who probably feel very uncomfortable talking about race... Probably??? Well, for the most part, not at all... I have tried unsecessfully to get the discussion going but most folks here run from it like "pigs from a gun"... Bullshit...nothing uncomfortable about talking about it unless someone tries to make out to be something they are not, Bobert, but I still luvya... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:19 PM Bobert needs to flush out his septic tank. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:42 PM LOL.... No, I tried to get this discussion going on ion the "poverty thread" and, geeze, at least half a dozen other threads over the years and it never, ahhhh, takes off... Hey, I don't mean to sound like I'm comin' down on anyone persaonlly here... What I see here in Mudville is prrdy much indicative of wnat I see in the general population... This thread is very much about "race" and it is very much about how white people tend to line up when they are told "It's about race"... I read a good article in the Style section of the Washington Post today bout how school teachers are so unprepared and uncomfotable in talking about race, slavery, Jim Crow, etc... I don't think folks here are any different... And I undertsnad that... I really do.... I mean, we have had Southern states who have pushed back apologies for slavery, for lynchings, etc... And I don't think the Midweat is far behind the South in bigotry... I'm sorry if any one Catter takes offense to what I am saying here but it isn't intended to be an indictment of any one individual but and indictment of white America in general... White America doesn't get it.... If white America had gotten it, then after the nooses were hung from the tree then the teachers would have altered their curriculum to speak to the history of the civil rights movement.... This is waht educators do when they fell free to do so... But they didn't fell free... And we here in Mudville don't either... I have offered my ideas about "repair"ations over and over here in Mudville and purdy much either been ignored or told that "Hey, I ain't gonna pay fir nuthin' mah grand-daddy did"... I ain't gonna beat this horse but so much here but a real discussion ain't been had here... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:52 PM Bobert, I suppose it will never occur to you that "discussion" doesn't imply everyone agreeing with your point of view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 23 Sep 07 - 11:43 PM Bobert, I think you are preaching to the choir. Why do you think you are the only one of us who gets it? Why do you apparently assume none of us has been in the trenches, etc.? I consider your kind of po'talk posting to be racist...it may be meant as benevolent, but it comes across as racist and I don't like to think of you that way. It sure isn't going to get you any converts and, as I said, you are preaching, in large part, to the choir. Maybe the majority of white Americans don't get it, or maybe you've been down South too long. I don't know, but I do know a lot of Mudcatters do get it. I also know the demographics of our country are NOT stuck in the past. Americans of Mexican/Latino/a/Spanish/Puerto Rican descent are the fastest growing segment of our population. In some areas they are in the majority now. Young people all over are living mixed race lives with their partners and children, blended families, etc. THEY get it no matter their race. If, and it is a big IF, I were going to apologise to ANY segment of our population, it would be to the original inhabitants of this land, those mistakenly called "Native Americans" way back when we started taking away their lands. Should Romans apologise to those of Gaulish descent; to those of all the other nations whose people they enslaved back in ancient Rome? How far back do you want to go? Should I go after whoever it was, Sutherland, I think, who put my ancestors off their land and sent them across the sea to a world they knew nothing about? Almost everyone can find some history in their past which is full of strife, enslavement, torture, etc. Should each person sue for reparations? My ex-son-in-law (as the father of my grandsons and someone whom we dearly love, he will always be a part of our family) and I talked about how my ancestor may have "owned" some of his ancestors in the Caribbean. Did he expect or demand an apology from me? No, he comes from an island of predominately black people, not Americans, and has a completely different take on race relations. He definitely feels discriminated against here, but he doesn't feel anyone "owes" him anything for what was done 2-300 years ago. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg F. Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:21 AM A much better tribute than the more than 40-year-old rant by Dylan, typical of the artifacts exhumed by rabble-rousers. Artifacts, huh? Rant? Seems a pretty contemporary analysis & germaine to me. The white power structure & its M.O. don't seem to have changed much if at all; e.g. the sainted Senator Jesse Helms employed "nigger-baiting" to keep his seat until the day he died. Plenty of other contemporary examples- Ol' Jesse was just primus inter pares. Just curious, Q - how old are you? Vass you dere, Charlie, in 1963? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:29 PM Point well taken, kat... Yes, the original inhabitants certainly deserve an apology... and more... Those who live on reservations are some of the poorest folks in our general population... Sorry also 'bout my hillbilly dialect... It ain't meant to be mimickin' anyone... It's really the way I talk in real life... I'm jus' tryin' to write the way that I talk... Those who have met me or heard me perform would say, "Hey, that's the way the boy is..." If it were mimiscking tho, I agree with you that it would indeed be racist in that I was putting down white hillbillies... Heck, white hillbillies is my neighbors and my friends... Yeah, most of them know that I ain't 'xactly into that bluegrass an' old timey music but don't seem to bother them none that I play alot of blues... Actually, jus' about every party I play up here in the mountains theres folks who come up and say stuff like "I ain't never heared of that kinda music but I like it..." As fir what I have said here about a discussion of race, no, I don't necessarily thuink I'm am preaching to the chior... Maybe with you, kat, but from reading what others have said, if they are in the choir then count me out... We ain't singing in the same key... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 24 Sep 07 - 05:41 PM Thanks for your reply, Bobert. I've no doubt you do have an *accent* but I do think you were putting it on a bit. As for the choir, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.:-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Sep 07 - 10:30 PM So it was mentioned on NPR today that the kid who was beaten up had nothing to do with the hanging of the nooses. Is that common knowledge, or did I just miss it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:24 AM I still have my poll tax receipt. Yeah, I was there in 1950 when Herman Sweat(t) finally was able to enter the University of Texas. "Mum's the word for Sweat" was the word at that time- I doubt that a foreigner would understand the full meaning of that phrase in the South even if he knew of the multiple meanings of mum. A number of people at the University and in the State supported Sweat and condemmed the failure of Pres. Painter and other educators to take up the torch with the Texas Legislature. (It may help to know that this deodorant, no longer marketed in the U. S. or Canada, among other things was recommended for use on sanitary napkins) The Vinson court held that the equal protection clause required that Sweat be admitted to the Univ. Texas Law School because the hastily set-up "School of Law of the Texas State University for Negroes" did not have equal facilities. This victory had immediate application in several states. The next important decision was against the Topeka, Kansas, Board of Education- not a part of the South. This decision quashed the idea that equality was possible under a policy of racial separation. This came in 1954, and opened the undergraduate, in addition to graduate and professional, degrees to Blacks, not only in the South, but in mid-western and western states that had similar laws to those of Texas and southern states. Tne NAACP of the time, I seem to remember Thurgood Marshall was their Chief Counsel, worked hard to forward African-Americans in their striving for equality. Marshall later became a justice of the U. S. Supreme Court. All this was being done without the intervention of outsiders. Throughout the South, in the next ten years, African-Americans, with the aid of the courts, tore down much of the enforced segregation, rampant not only in the South, but practiced in many ways in the North and West. They marched and demonstrated and sometimes suffered for their activities. They were joined by a circus of white demonstrators from outside who only built resentment among southern whites that continues to this day. Unfortunately, the NAACP and other groups of the time, failed to discourage them. Many law enforcement and court officials in the South today are African-American, including chiefs-of-police and court officials. Poor whites as well as poor blacks still are poorly treated by the system, but this is universal. Money thrown at this and similar social problems instead of into stupid wars would help our society to heal the wounds of the disadvantaged. None of this has anything to do with the prosecution of a young criminal in Jena, Louisiana. The circus that took place there is ludicrous and hopefully will not be repeated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg F. Date: 25 Sep 07 - 09:13 AM All this was being done without the intervention of outsiders... a circus of white demonstrators from outside who only built resentment among southern whites that continues to this day. Yup, Q- right you are. Everything was just hunky-dory for Black folks following the Brown decision & all the subsequent "unpleasantness" was caused by them damn "Outside Agitators". An somewhat idiosyncratic, but not all that uncommon (unfortunately), view of the civil rights movement. We didn't know, said the congregation, singing a hymn in their church of whites Press was full of lies about us, preacher told us we were right. The outside agitators came, they burned some churches and put the blame On decent southern people's names to set our Colored people aflame And maybe some of our boys got hot and a couple of niggers and Reds got shot They should have stayed where they belonged! The preacher would have told us if we'd done wrong. We didn't know at all, we didn't see a thing. You can't hold us to blame, what could we do? It was a terrible shame, but we can't bear the blame. Oh, No, not us! We didn't know. -Tom Paxton Theophilus Eugene Connor would be proud. I suppose you also believe the fiction that the Civil War was fought over "States Rights" rather than chattel slavery? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:30 AM Yep, it's always them outsiders. Dang old meddling agitators. Guess Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney got what they deserved for meddling in the affairs of Southerners, who were well on their way to working out their 'negro' problem on their own, right, Q? Heck, by now they'd have been so integrated that the little black kids would be saluting the confederate battle flag, if those New York Jews hadn't come down and got in their business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 25 Sep 07 - 10:36 AM "None of this has anything to do with the prosecution of a young criminal in Jena, Louisiana." There are more than a few young criminals in Jena. But let's definitely get the Black kid. We don't keep those folks in their place and they'll be wanting to vote next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:04 PM Such ignorance! Voting facts. "In that time period (1980-2004), blacks in Louisiana have reported higher registration rates than blacks outside the South. In fact, beginning in 1988, the difference has been at least ten percentage points, with the one exception of 1994. In 2002, Louisiana blacks were 16.5 percentage points more likely to report being registered than non-southern African Americans." "....by 2004, blacks were almost 30 percent of the registered electorate, a figure basically identical to [their share of] the voting age population." A complication- while 30% of LA"s registered electorate is African American (equal to their percentage of the electorate as a whole), they tend to vote Democratic in a state in which George W. Bush won 75% of the white vote in 2004. This does not as important on the parish level; blacks hold 20% of the seats in the State Legislature, and are represented by more than 700 elected officials. Bullock-Gaddie Report on Louisiana, Feb. 10, 2006, AEI website. Louisiana voting Again, this has nothing to do with the Jena criminal case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg F. Date: 25 Sep 07 - 03:55 PM In point of fact, Q, it has nothing to do with anything at all! Certainly not with anything under discussion on this thread. Now, whether your posting it is a sign of ignorance, or something else, its not for me to say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Janie Date: 26 Sep 07 - 12:25 AM Sad and interesting thread. Again and again I read a number of posts of people who understand the issue here is institutional racism and equal justice - And again and again I read posts from people who don't see that at all. Some one pulled in the Duke case. That is still a good example of the pervasiveness of institutional racism, and one scumbag prosecutor's almost successful efforts to exploit our common knowledge of it's existence to his own ends. FWIW, the Southern Poverty Law Center is located right here where I live and is a well respected institution in these parts, by ALL parties, even those likely to find themselves on the opposite side of a lawsuit. FWIW, I am the clinical consultant for the mental health court in a County here in North Carolina. In the course of completing diagnostic assessments I take a complete psychosocial history, including prior arrests, convictions and jail sentences. I took on this assignment about 4 months ago. In that short time, it has become very apparent to me that Black defendants are much more likely to have done jail time, especially prison, than are White defendants with very comparable histories of offences. Speaking in generalities, it is clear to me that white antisocial thugs do not receive as severe sentences, and the threshhold for sending them to prison is noticably higher than for black antisocial thugs. I am impressed by the professionalism of the judges, DA's, probation officers and defence attorney's on the team. Black or white, none of them are consciously racist. But the fact remains that justice is meted out unequally. The poor and working class, white or black, fare worse than the middle class, white or black. But within socioeconoic classes, blacks fare worse than whites. Janie I understand why Azizi bailed on this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:59 AM Yes Janie, when the "unenlightened" want to speak about the specifics of the situation rather than simply understanding the greater scope of the struggle against injustice which overrides anything as puny as the facts in a particular case, the "enlightened" tend to find the entire thing just a tad grimy. If we could stick to noble proclamations and generalities we could all agree and have a much nicer conversation. Frankly, I don't appreciate the holier-than-thou attitude. I saw a clip of the Little Rock 10 on CNN. Yes, these were students who bravely walked into Central High in Little Rock, Arkansas in the 50s to gain rights to an equal education. They followed Dr King's method of non-violence, patience, and correct action, and broke the back of the segregated school system in Arkansas. A woman now in her 60s who was one of the ten related how she had been harrassed by several white female students. "I called them white trash", she said, "and I've never been able to forget that, and how bad I felt for having said it." When the reporter asked why, she replied "because it was below my character. It put me down to their level." So please, don't give me the Jena 6 and Mychal Bell as your courageous pioneers for equal treatment under law. And if I have the honesty to bring up my objections due to some very specific reasons, you may want to listen to them and learn something from them rather than sulking, pouting, or calling me a racist. I am certainly willing to listen to your side of the argument. You don't have to convince me that unequal treatment under the law exists. But I think the Jena 6 and Mychal Bell are such a weak argument that they could very well have the opposite of the effect intended. And no Bobert, I didn't take what you said personally. And when you talk about reparations etc you may be "preaching to the choir" but I'm not and never have aspired to be a member. But I like the way you play guitar. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:25 PM Justice in Jena, by Reed Walters. This reasoned explanation of the necessary actions taken by this prosecutor appeared in The New York Times, 26 Sept. 2007. Justice in Jena Not a 'member' of any choir. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 26 Sep 07 - 01:41 PM Okay, then why did they bring attempted murder charges in the first place? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Donuel Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM After seeing the video of the beating/fight (taken via phone device by one of the white kids) between one white kid and 5 black kids I do not see any evidence of attempted murder. When I watch the Video of the white truck driver who was pulled from his truck and struck with a brick during the race riots in LA I do see evidence for attempted homocide charges. I agree that these kids are all poor examples of character, culture, integrity and rationality. The local sheriff, principal and district attorney have all failed justice in my eyes. Business is good for Sharpton since the Imus affair. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM The principal and the vice principal may have been the only people to have acted correctly in this fiasco. The principal's decision to toss the kids OUT of school for putting nooses in the tree was over-ridden by both the superintendent and the school board, so instaed they got a tap on the wrist and that most stupid of all punishments--a three day in-school suspension. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:29 PM Thanks to Q for the comments of Reed Walters. He sounds like a man motivated by duty and a sense of what is right, and he sounds like he won't be cowed by the pressure put on him. If the facts are as he states, more power to him. I challenge Peace, Bobert, the 2 Gregs, Janie, and whoever else argues for the overarching nature of prejudice as justification for Bell's actions to read it and comment. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:38 PM What a wasted opportunity this whole fiasco is. There was an opportunity to take an incident of incredible stupidity, and a moment when the racial incidence was at the friction stage, and turn it into a teaching moment. You might have caused an epiphany. I remember watching, earlier in the year, an episode of Oprah where this organization held an assembly at a school, and through the use of "crossing the line if....." they taught the young folks how badly they were making each other feel. Bullying, whether racially based, or on the basis of body image, or religion, was exposed for what it was. There were epiphanies in the lives of virtually every kid that attended that session. In Jena, they had such an opportunity, but no one chose to take it. The friction escalated to smoking embers, smoldered, and erupted. Now we are faced with a bunch of self righteous poms on both sides of the argument more interested in defending their positions, and using the incident to gain self serving publicity, than getting to the bottom of a sad situation. A fucking pox on all your houses for the wasting of a magnificent chance to effect change in the hearts and minds of these young folks. I am disgusted by all of this, and by the attempts to justify the actions of the kids that did the beating, and the kids that fostered the racial hatred that led to the beating. There is no excuse for the beating. And there is no excuse for allowing and justifying the racially charged hanging of the nooses. The fact that months went by isn't justification for condemning the black kids. Rather it serves up proof that the racial tensions were allowed to fester and erupted in this act. As I said...... a pox on all your houses. The young folks are being poorly served by those charged with teaching them values. If someone deserves to go to jail, it is those who failed in a sacred obligation to use life's rough spots to teach the next generation to be better than the last. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:43 PM For the most part, I agree with you Mick. But read the "Justice in Jena" link provided by Q several posts up. The Prosecutor sounds like a guy who is painfully persevering in trying to do his job. I don't think his house deserves a pox. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:44 PM "If someone deserves to go to jail, it is those who failed in a sacred obligation to use life's rough spots to teach the next generation to be better than the last." If that's yours, Mick, may I quote you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:57 PM Ernie, my comments go to a much earlier moment in all this. Had this been handled as it should have been, by the school, and the community, we wouldn't be having this whole debate. The second those nooses appeared, it should have been a red flag for people that truly care about the young folks of both sides of the racial divide. There is no excuse for the handling of this. While I completely understand the District Attorney's position, his is locked into the moment of the beating as it must be. But in the larger analysis, the most important analysis, the analysis of what happened and how and where do we go from here, this is a monumental failure on the part of the folks that are charged with teaching so much more than just reading, writing and arithmetic. It is a monumental failure by the parents of all concerned. It was an exquisite opportunity to make this town, and these young people, better citizens and human beings. The real lesson of Jena is that we are not where we need to be in the struggle to respect and understand one another. Those that act like racism, whether benign or overt, is a thing of the past are in a state of denial. The hanging of those nooses should have raised a flag in the minds of decent white folks and parents that said, "We must deal with this". Those that thought it just a harmless prank are reprehensible and lie at the root of the problem. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 07 - 02:58 PM Yes, Bruce, it is mine. And you may use it any way that you deem fit. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:23 PM Thank you, Mick. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 26 Sep 07 - 04:45 PM Well said, Mick. I think that is the point... things we all need to do in our daily lives to address this problem. The lady I mentioned, the one who was in the Little Rock 10, was very articulate. She went back to the school on the 50th anniversary and was asked how she saw the whole issue of integration, looking back. She said "I'm shocked and surprised. We thought a new day was dawning back then. We thought that schools would be filled with eager, happy children, anxious to learn, black and white together." We should know by now that dreams can come true. But it takes a hell of a lot of work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 26 Sep 07 - 08:38 PM You know, this situation wouldn't have grown into what it has become if the "noosers" had been been charged with real crimes... "Nooser" are hatefilled people and that is why we have a "hate crime" laws on the books... It isn't at all helpfull when black kids see that white kids aren't prosecuted when they do dumb stuff... It reaffirms the same story that their parents and grandparents have have told them about how unjust American is... Does this make the schoolyard fight right??? Well, no... But let's keep this in some perspective here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 07 - 09:24 PM Perhaps it is you that needs to do a little research before you make pronouncements, Bobert. What these young folks did isn't classed a hate crime. You are mixing what seems right, with what the law is. Hate crimes in the code can only be used to enhance a violation of the law, and hanging a noose from the tree isn't a violation of the law. And I find your suggestion just as ludicrous as the suggestion that this all popped up months later and the black kids are just thugs. Neither of those suggestions would do anything to break the cycle that is going on here. This community had it in their power to resolve this in a way that would have had a positive effect. But they didn't have the will or desire. Shame on them. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 26 Sep 07 - 09:58 PM Mick, We have a governemnt thaqt has suspended some 700 years of accepted law here in suspending habeas corpes... If our copuntry can do that then, by golly, the white ***adults*** can figure out a way to stop white kids from practicing Jim Crow... Yeah, stick with the "letter of the law" all you want... It's comforting for folks who don't have the balls to stand up to racism and Jim Crow... I'm bored with yer brand of politics as I'm sure you are with mine... And I don't need no "Big Mick Testimonials" about just why your opinions are better than mine... I've been in the streets, too... So spare me... And lastly, have a nice life... You have become the new "Dickey" in my life... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Big Mick Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:51 PM Bobert, take a pill. And you are hardly one to talk about being preachy. I am tickled to death that you are "in the streets". I hear that all the time from you. Funny, I never see you there. Perhaps you could come on out and give me a hand with ICE. We could always use another body with these Homeland Security boys. As to "sticking to the letter of the law", perhaps, in you're brilliance, you could figure out how the prosecutor could prosecute someone for breaking a law they didn't break. I agree that what was done was hateful, and should be a crime. It just isn't, and you can't make one up. If we allow that to be done on these knuckleheads, how do we stop it when they do it to us? As to my opinions being better than yours, sounds like a bit of envy to me. I have never contended my opinions are anything more than just that. My opinions, offered up for the scrutiny of all here. Your reading something more into that speaks more about you than me. And you have a nice life too. But do me a favor, see if you can do it with a little more of that phoney country boy accent. I do so enjoy that. Why I let guys like you suck me into this shit, I'll never know. Gotta go now, the street calls. Hope to see you there. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:56 PM Gentlemen, you have started your engines. But the motors are over-revving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Dogwhistle Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:07 PM Indeed, as Peace has stated, red-line on the tachometers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Janie Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:50 AM LEJ, I am a bit stunned at the rancor of your response to my post. If my post sounds sanctimonious to you or to others, I apologize. that is not my intent. However, the post was not directed to you or anyone else in particular. The post reflects my own thoughts and reactions to the over-all thread to that point. I have gone back and read the post several times now. It still reflects my wholistic impression and reactions to the thread to that point. I must note that I did not call you or anyone else a racist, nor did I say anything to make any attempt to imply that. Niether did I assert that the 6 black kids in Jena, or Mychal Bell in particular, are courageous volunteers. Nor did I sulk or pout. I do wish I had said "....Black or white, none of us are consciously racist." Perhaps that is why you interpreted the post as sanctimonious. Perhaps that is what you are referring to when you accuse me of calling you a racist. After reading Q's linked article, my view is unchanged. In my view, the phenomenon of The Jena 6 is a sociopolitical entity where the sum is greater than the parts. The people of Jena must feel like roadkill on the turnpike headed for that somewhat mythical terminus of real social justice and equality regardless of differences in race, class or ethnic group. I can sympathize. I have personally been roadkill on the same highway, and shared that story a while back on a different thread about affirmative action, or a similar topic. Individual justice and social justice are not always mutually inclusive. That simply reflects the realities of the tension of the the interdependent relationship between the individual and society. Mick, there have been a number of opportunities for 'teaching moments' in this. I think it is necessary to ponder why all those opportunities were missed. I don't think it likely anyone involved made like Johnny Depp in whichever Pirates movie it was and said, "Ah yes, I just love those moments. I like to wave to them as they pass by." Your perception (and mine, and probably the perception of most people who have posted to this thread) is that those opportunities were 'shoulds.' It might be more fruitful to reframe them as 'coulds.' The Jena 6 is now at the level of national discussion, I believe, because of both the reality of institutional racism and also the perception of institutional racism. Perception is every bit as potent as reality. And that perception has to be dealt with on a societal level. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 27 Sep 07 - 11:55 AM I'll rise to the challenge to comment on Reed Walters (the Jena DA's) apologia in the New York Times. Mr. Walters strikes me as making an excellent closing argument, doing a fine job of presenting himself as a well-meaning public officials whose hands are tied by law and regulation. A regular hero of jurisprudence. Who gives new meaning to the term 'self-serving.' He, and his colleague in the US Attorney's office. I'm sure that Messrs. Sharpton and Jackson would point out that whereas the KKK did their work with burning cross, noose, and shotgun, any number of Southern public officials have done theirs with a sheaf of papers, an off-the-rack suit, and an air of genteel Southern civility. While passing literacy requirements, poll taxes, and so forth. Whether it's Jim Crow, or James Crow Esq. JD, though it's all the same. It's just that some thugs have paneled offices. I don't by Walters' argument isn't a 'hate crime.' A hate crime is committed, at the Federal level, when someone "by force or threat of force willfully injures, intimidates or interferes with... any person because of his race, color, religion or national origin and because he is or has been" attempting to engage in one of six types of federally protected activities, such as voting or going to school." (See Wikipedia) It seems fairly clear to me, by simple inspection, that the hanging of a lynching noose in response to an African American sitting under the 'white tree' at his high school pretty well fulfills that provision of 'threat of force' and it's enumerated that going to school (with full freedom to participate in everything and be anywhere any other student can be) is a protected activity. That, as Walters states: "the United States attorney for the Western District of Louisiana, who is African-American, found no federal law against what was done" makes it fairly clear why this particular US Attorney was spared by Gonzales purge. Apparently the defendant isn't the only one who was found useful for his ability to play ball. That he's African American says less about his credibility than it does about his inability to remember just how it was that an African American ever was able to rise to a position such as his. The whole scenario is a classic, one used by racist or sectarian governments everywhere: you ignore injustice after injustice perpetrated upon the group who are the objects of persecution. The inevitable outcome is that the group, or individuals from that group, will retaliate. Either in some organized way, or in some sort of angry outburst. Now the outburst may be against a member of the 'elite' group who turns out to be innocent. Everyone decries that--- but then again does it ever occur to those who steeple their hands and cry 'foul' that those to whom injustice was routinely dealt were probably just as innocent? No. And the perpetrator of said vengeance may have a checkered past--- he may be 'an angry young man.' Of course, guys like DA Walters will tell you that it's not their job to look at how the community which they've served have spent 15 or 20 years manufacturing those 'angry young men.' No, they're supposed to 'uphold the law, and nothing but the law.' Never mind that they and their cronies been running the "angry young man" factory themselves, via selective prosecutions, via 'not finding' any violation of civil rights laws in threats of lynchings, via turning expulsions into slaps on the wrists, and on and on. We can find thousands of examples, from the roots of American Independence, and Irish independence, to the Rodney King riots in LA and those that went before in Detroit, Watts, Newark, and so on. The law is beautifully civil and articulate both when it turns its back on society's second- and third-class citizens, as well as when it prosecutes them when they respond with the kind of violence and injustice which has been done to them. As Woody Guthrie once said "Some will rob you with a six gun--- and some with a fountain pen." Or as the Who said: "The men who spurred us on, sit in judgment of our wrongs." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:46 PM Or as the man said as he beat his wife "sorry honey, it ain't me doin' this. It's all the other women that done me wrong." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 27 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM A terribly flawed analogy if I've ever read one. EJ, the fact of life is that we have to deal with how people actually behave, not how we would have them behave. It does no good to, for example, rage against the Rodney King rioters after you allow the LAPD to, for decades, get away with beating on people of color, then move the trial of a group of conspicuously guilty ones out to a white suburb, and acquit them. If, as the more powerful group, you do all the things that create interracial rage, you don't get to go 'tut tut tut' when, as surely as night follows day, that rage gets expressed in awful and even unjust (by your rules) ways. So whatever side you come down on regarding Mr. Bell's behavior or his guilt or innocent, you've failed miserably if you don't take a hard look at the conditions set up by those in power which contribute to the creation of angry young men. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 27 Sep 07 - 04:26 PM Mick, You must not live or worked in rural South or you would know that presecutors, unless there is some high level of scrutiny do purdy much what ever they like... Here in Page County a black kid was arrested for wearing a mask while driving a motor scotter... Is there such a law against it??? No, but the commonwealth's attorney held the kid for several months until it fianlly made the news... Kids are arrested for all kinds of dumbass things that adults never thought needed to be codified... The prosecutor ***could*** have found something to haul these white kids in on and threatened to prosecute them with a statement that in his or her opinion these actions were at the very least hateful... Actually, I believe that the noose represents a "battery" in terms of most law... Janie, Yeah, I've made the same point as you have about the situation in Jena being an opportunity... Problem is, if things in that area are like things around here, there is no will by the white adults to have the schools do much in the way havfing a discussion on race... Plus, I know several local teachers and these folks just wouldn't have a clue... But at least some of the adults here are making an attempt to have this discussion becuase it is long overdue... What I am afraid of, however, is that most white adults really would rather it just go away... Plus, the right wing has hammered programs aimed at leveling the playing field that alot of white adults think it's perfectly okay not to have the discussion... But one thing one can take to the bank and that is that Jenas won't just go away 'cause Jim Crow ain't dead yet... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:18 PM Heck, Bobert, law enforcement can prosecute just about anybody they want, particularly those who have limited rights and resources to fight them. They just call it 'disorderly conduct' (which, insofar as I can tell, amounts to doing anything a cop doesn't want you to do, including things you have a perfect right to do). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 27 Sep 07 - 09:29 PM 'cept hangin' nooses.... Nobody has a right to do that, especially in the South where it is equivelent to burnin' a cross in yer front yard... Come to think of it, other than trespassin', burnin' a cross in someone's front yard ain't illegal in most Southern states... This is what I mean by "hate crimes"... If more Southern prosecutors had the balls to bring charges agianst the Jim Crowists then alot of the Jiom Crow stuff would eventually stop... But they aren't... They are elected and worried about getting re-elected and that means letting white folks do what ever they want lond as no "niggers" ain't actually killed.... And if a "nigger" is killed then better cover your tracks... That's the way it is in the South... Talk about a War in Terrorism... It oughta be fought in the Soputh before trying in out elsewhere.... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:05 PM There is a law in LA, Louisiana Statute RS 14:225, which makes institutional vandalism a crime, and it was specifically intended to deal with defacing of schools, churches, and other institutions with hate symbols--Given that decorating a tree with toilet paper is considered an act of vandalism, it is certainly arguable that hanging nooses in a tree is an act of vandalism as well. A different prosecutor might have interpreted the law much differently than Mr. Walters did. Perhaps, if he had known that this would become a national issue, he would have interpretted it differently, as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:37 PM The way I read that statute is that there must be a dollar value to the vandalism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:16 AM Not the way I read it, Q. It just says what the punishment should be according to dollar amount of vandalism, defacement, and/or "otherwise damaging" such property: (1) When the damage is less than five hundred dollars, the offender shall be fined not more than five hundred dollars, or imprisoned for not more than six months, or both. Higher dollar amounts, more punishment, the way I read it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Janie Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:29 AM Well Beaubear, I don't think it is as simple as that, and I don't think we are on exactly the same page on this one. However, I am also realizing (again) that this is the wrong forum (small f) on which for me to be writing. (I just deleted another one of my too long posts on which I have spent way too much time editing and reworking.) I have no mastery of the 'pithy comment', insufficient wit, and no musical expertise or talent sufficient to give me enough 'stock' to reasonably expect others to put up with them here. There are many lively discussions on a number of social issues that occur here, and for a long time I successfully resolved to read them with interest and keep my windbag mouth shut. I ain't as bad as the Shambles, but I am as rambling, and I am definitely not as impervious, so I'm gonna shut my trap and renew my resolve to stay off of these threads until I fergit again. Later gater. Janie |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:15 AM The cost of having the school groundskeeper remove the nooses represents a dollar-value, if the prosecutor wanted to see it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:24 AM Seems some people can't quit being purposefully obtuse. The point Lonesome EJ seems to be making (as I see it, anyway) is not that it wasn't a royal screw-up with racist undertones. The point is that this is not the equivalent of the behaviors OR intent of the 60s civil rights movement and it is a terrible and irrational INJUSTICE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60S TO CLAIM ANY PARALLEL. Further, these thugs stand for NOTHING that any civil, rational person would wish to stand behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 28 Sep 07 - 12:23 PM Was I being obtuse, John? That's usually not one of my traits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 28 Sep 07 - 01:09 PM John Hardly, how can anything be an INJUSTICE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT OF THE 60S, as you shout so loudly? It was a movement, not a person. Why should that even be a concern? There is a parallel to that period, in that the fight here is about institutionalized racism and the practical racism of public officials in the American South. There's another parallel in that the 'movement' of the 60's had both pacifist and violent undertones and overtones. There is a difference between now and the 60's in that the racism which is currently at issue is not set down in law. In fact, the law seems to forbid it. Where Civil Rights movements have failed, and continue to fail, is in resolving the sort of insidious racism (and the faulty conscienses which underlie it). In Jena, we have the perfect examples: 1. That in this day and age there should be permitted in a school a culture where such a thing as a 'white tree' could exist. 2. That in this day and age ANY young person of high school age should believe for one moment that the presentation of a noose in a tree to an African American isn't a crime. 3. The institutional racism that had the school board not just reinstate the expelled culprits, but actually reduced the punishment to little more than a slap on the wrist. 4. The institutional racism that has the Jena DA finding ways to justify not prosecuting a clear hate crime while 'throwing the book' at a young African American man who, by all appearances, was caught up in the aftermath of the hate crime 5. The institutional racism which has an African American Bush Administration official unwilling to go out on a limb (you'll pardon the pun) to prosecute the noose-hangers. Jena makes it clear that, for all the trappings of equality, the hearts and the minds of the white population have not been won, at least not in places like Jena. That although the laws have changed, those who uphold it aren't willing, for various reasons, to do so. That is the tragedy of Jena--- and it belongs on the front page with Al Sharpton standing on the courthouse steps and calling it what it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 28 Sep 07 - 02:52 PM Here is an article written immediately after the trial last summer. It refutes some of the "facts" posted above, but, more importantly, it gives a detailed picture of what has happened, and why. What Blane Williams should have known |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Little Hawk Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:05 PM I have no wish to get involved in the main issues that are driving this discussion, but... I can't help but note that the town's name, Jena, is being pronounced "Jeena" by people on the news. "Jean-ah". Strange, because I think the name came from a place in central Europe near where Napoleon fought a big battle with the Prussians, and the people there pronounce it "Yay-nah". The "J" is pronounced like we pronounce a "Y", the "e" is pronounced like "eh". YAY-NAH. Of course, Jesus wasn't really called "Jesus" back then either. He was probably called "Yeshua". And the Spanish-speaking people nowadays call him "Hay-SOOS", while some other people call him "YAY-SOO" and others prefer to think he never even existed. Well, these things tend to change in translation as they move around, right? ;-) That's it. My one and only comment here about Jena. You may now all continue debating. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:21 PM Lonesome EJ, No, you were not being obtuse. Obviously I was, because the point I was making was that others were being purposely obtuse to not have gotten the point you were clearly making. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Lonesome EJ Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:38 PM Thanks. I don't always recognize obtusion when I see it. obtusity. obtusiveness? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: John Hardly Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:52 PM I only know opacity. Obtusity is too geometric. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:24 PM Well stated, Greg... Until the grown ups start enforcing civil rights laws the underlying message to everyone, regardless of race, is that Jim Crow is just peachy dandy with those who have the power... Especially in the rural South... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Sep 07 - 05:45 PM Jena was named for the place where Napoleon won victory. But these names adopt either French or English pronunciation in Louisiana, depending on which group is dominant. Originally it would have had the French pronunciation, or Jheh-na, not the German of the city near which Napoleon won (Yeh-na). I have not heard reliably how it is pronounced now. Irish, English and German ancestors are probably most prominent among the townspeople now. It is in LaSalle Parish, named for Rene Robert Cavelier, Sieur de la Salle. LaSalle Parish Court is in Jena. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: fumblefingers Date: 29 Sep 07 - 01:35 AM When I lived in Jena, LA the locals called the place Jean uh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 29 Sep 07 - 06:27 PM A fairly good case can be made that the Jena Six were charged with a crime, imprisoned, and prosecuted as a retaliation, by the prosecutor, for leading protests related to the "noose" incident--and in fact, that is the fundamental issue here. Check the link that I posted above for more information on what happened, and didn't happen, at the trial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Sep 07 - 08:32 PM Assault and battery is not a crime? Only one was imprisoned, not six. The blog is just that- without credibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:18 PM To repeat, Bell was on probation, and had been convicted of previous assaults and property damage. Only his football ability was keeping him out of custody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 29 Sep 07 - 10:24 PM Repeat: Mychal Bell was convicted of aggravated battery. That is exactly what he did. What is the big problem? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:02 AM Q, I assume that you are referring to the link I posted above. The website is not a "blog"--it is the home of Friends of Justice--it is a criminal justice reform organization, and the group that the families of the Jena 6 turned for assistance when the legal system failed them. Rev. Alan Bean, a Baptist minister, heads the organization, and went to Jena to observe the trial, to investigate the situation, and to assemble resources. What you read there is the result of on the scene investigation , interviews with witnesses, examination of police records, and an eye witness reporting of the events. It is highly credible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:41 AM As to PDQs comment--based on eyewitness accounts, it is not clear who struck Justin Barker. The only adult to witness the incident named another individual, Malcolm Shaw, as the assailant--however the defense attorney didn't call him to testify. Other witnesses claim that a person wearing a green jacket, struck the blow. Bell was wearing a black jacket. These points were not presented to the jury--and they might have changed the verdict-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 30 Sep 07 - 09:21 AM It was never clear to me why the DA brought charges of attempted murder to begin with, or is that just something the media threw in for hype? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:25 PM "It was never clear to me why the DA brought charges of attempted murder to begin with..." It is very common for the DA to file higher charges because: 1. the suspect is expected to confess to a lesser charge 2. a judge or jury can always reduce the charges 3. once filed, the charges cannot be raised, only lowered |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 30 Sep 07 - 12:57 PM That's really the million dollar question, Riginslinger--why did the prosecutor do what he did? Prosecutors often have political ambitions--and there will always be enthusiatic support from some quarters for anyone who takes a "tough" stand on a controversial issue, especially if it is a racial issue. It is probably not fair to jump to that conclusion, but it is Louisiana...... |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 30 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM A lot of nonsense is written about African-American treatment in the courts in the South. If one looks at the statistics, compiled in a lead article by "The Black Commentator," African-American incarceration by percentage: Ratio of Black to White prisoners Wisconsin 11.60 Iowa 11.60 Texas 5.14 Oklahoma 4.63 Arizona 5.24 Delaware 6.56 Nevada 4.29 Oregon 6.03 California 5.87 Colorado 6.98 For a number of other reasons, the states listed above are considered to be the worst for incarceration of Blacks, in spite of higher ratios in New York and Illinois. Read the article for details, link below. Mississippi 4.12 Louisiana 5.94 Alabama 4.50 S. Carolina 4.99 Georgia 4.14 Maryland 6.8 N. Carolina 6.08 Delaware 6.56 Virginia 6.28 Tennessee 5.08 NEW YORK 9.47 Arkansas 4.48 ILLINOIS 7.53 All eleven southern states lock up noticeably higher per capita numbers of their whole populations, black, white and otherwise, than do New York and Illinois. But southern rates of disparity between black and white imprisonment do not approach those of Illinois at 7.5 to one or New York's 9.5 to one. The article concludes that 'the Old South' is just not a good place to be poor, whether one is black or white. Ten Worst Places to be Black In New York, African-Americans and Latinos constitute 25% of the population, but 83% of all New York state prisoners are African-American. Drug convictions skew the NY figures somewhat, but are about 20% of the total. For New York figures, see New York Alan Bean belongs with Sharpton and that ilk; much talk, little substance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg F. Date: 30 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM And the ratio of whites to non-whites in the several States' populations is....? And the differences in sentancng between whites and non-whites convicted is? & etc. A case of lies, damned lies & statistics, it seems. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 30 Sep 07 - 04:06 PM MATH QUIZ "About half the nation's 2.2 million prisoners are black." If that same statistic were applied to non-Blacks, what would the number be? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:30 PM Other witnesses claim that a person wearing a green jacket, struck the blow. Bell was wearing a black jacket. And they say Southern justice isn't color blind! :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM Innocent pic here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:38 PM My exact point, pdq... It is a practice for prosecutors to bring more serious charges... Exactly what did the prosecutor bring against the white "noosers"??? Nuthin'... (Well, Bobert, there ain't no laws about "nooses"...) Bull... There are laws when the noose is interpreted as a physical threat... That makes it a battery, at the very least... So why weren't the white kids charged with anything other than being, ahhh, friggin' suspended from schools and having their white only tree cut down??? This is what this is all about... It's about equal justice... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: pdq Date: 30 Sep 07 - 07:54 PM Just a small aside: Do you really believe there are 15-year-olds who can tie a proper hangman's noose? I can't do one and I have my Boy Scout merit badge in rope tying. (such a thing was not included, of course) I think my phrase "noose-like piece of rope stuck in a tree" is more accurate. Rude: yes. Scary: probably not very. Illegal: No. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 30 Sep 07 - 08:14 PM No, pd-ster... It is very much a crime... Historically the "noose" has been used as not only a threat but a threat that has been carried out... Ignorance of the law by the white kids is no excuse... They should have been chareged and it is my argument that had they been charged that it would have ended there... And BTW, a noose ain't all that hard to make and I don't have a Boy Scout merit badge in knot tying whioch, of course, ain't all that surprising seein' as I wasn't a Boy Scout... As for your assessment that the noose ain't all that scarey.... Ahhhh, come on down to the Southland and live a couple weeks as a rural balck and I think you might have a differnt perspective... In much of the South black folks still have to walk the white man's line... But don't tell me that these black folks ain't aware of the institutional racsim that is built into the systems around them... I've spent most of my life livin' in rural South... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM Let me get this straight. If some asshole should hang a swastika in a local park not generally frequented by Jews, I, as a Jew,have the right to assemble a bunch of friends, three months after the incident, and beat the hell out of some German-American who I happen to encounter, but who may or may not have anything to do with the "hate crime". C'mon ---get real. There is a real and serious problem concerning unequal treatment of minorities by the law, but these six and Mychal Bell in particular, seem to be particularly unattractive poster children for the cause. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:43 PM No, Dick... You are missin' Part A of the strory where the swastika was hung and the the4 grown ups in the community did nothing... This is less about the Jena 6 than about the treatment that the white kids got for hanging the noose... I don't think anyone here condone's the beating of the white kid, even though it should be pointed out that one of the Jean ^ black kids had been beated by a group of white kids just days before... And again, what was the response to the black kid gettin' beaten??? Nothing, that's waht??? This entire situation is about the dual system of justice and why we have two systems at all... Well, I'll tell ya why... It's because we have institutional racism in this country... Jena has proven that beyond any shadow of doubt... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM Bobert- I'm well aware of part A. The school principal tried to take appropriate action, but was overruled by the school board. If you want to say that that's a good reason to get rid of school boards, I wouldn't argue. What I'm objecting to is some posters' idea that what the black kids did was in some way justified. I'm also well aware of institutionalized racism in this country. I just don't think that this case is the best one to illustrate it. Anymore than I thought OJ's murder trial was much of a peg on which to hang an accusation of anti-Black legal bias. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:50 PM With due respect, Dick, hold back your judgment on this issue until you read Bill Quigley's Account of the Jena 6 He is a human rights lawyer and law professor from Loyola University and has been active in bringing the issue to public attention. Also, read the article above, "What Blane Williams should have..." it was written by Rev. Alan Bean, who attended the trial and whose organization, Friends of Justice, have conducted an investigation of the incidents involved in this issue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:14 AM Mychal Bell is back in jail; |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Oct 07 - 01:50 PM The sentence was very lenient considering the history of anti-social criminal acts, including violation of parole, by this person. Jena is safer with him in custody. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 12 Oct 07 - 02:07 PM M Ted: Thank you for that link. I hadn't read the whole story phrased in quite that way. Makes a guy hope that that isn't what constitutes 'justice' in the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 12 Oct 07 - 03:59 PM Q... given what we know about 'justice' in Jena, it doesn't seem to me like there's much credibility to anything they say about a young African American male--- prior convictions or present subject matter. So you really don't have much of a foundation to say that 'Jena is safer with him in custody.' Indeed, if Jena continues with their brand of 'Southern justice' things may get one hell of a lot less safe. Can you say 'Rodney King?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 12 Oct 07 - 04:21 PM In the end, Rodney King seems like kind of a bad example to persuade public opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM What do you know about justice in Jena? What do you know about the laws of Louisiana (or anywhere else, for that matter)?. Like some others who have posted, the message conveyed is that passion in an argument is inversely proportional to the amount of real information advanced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 12 Oct 07 - 07:15 PM The Rodney King riots were the inevitable result of justice denied. You can push a people only so far. Okay, so how about another example. 1968. The inner cities. What do I know of what passes for 'justice' in Jena? Only what I've read in the numerous articles, which strongly suggest that there is one justice for the white man, another for the black man, and both are administered and/or controlled by the white man. It seems to me that in a place like Jena, we don't know much of anything, because the truth is bent to the purposes of the racist establishment. In such an environment, 'truth' is elusive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 12 Oct 07 - 08:09 PM Yup, Greg... Welcome to the South... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 12 Oct 07 - 10:02 PM There is pretty good evidence that these prosecutions are retaliatory--I know that a lot of people want to believe that that sort of thing doesn't happen in this day and age, but it does--and it will continue as long as people are content to deny it--- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 12 Oct 07 - 11:53 PM M.Ted, thanks for the link. Very interesting publication. One comment on the article: it would not be unusual for a lot of small towns in the West to also wind up with all-white juries, etc. A lot of small towns out here have few if any minorities and, in Colorado, those would most likely be of Latino descent. Just an observation, I would prefer it were otherwise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 13 Oct 07 - 12:33 PM Why does the conversation start with the 'noose-like' ropes instead of the tree? Isn't the tree given as the first bit of the story? IS it racist to gather in the same spot with your friends every day? Isn't the tree a Territory thing? There's a thread which consists of Musicians discussing the problem of shaky eggs. The gist seems to be that shaky eggs are perfectly fine...as long as they don't mingle with the Musicians. Consensus seems to be that egg shakers need to realize that they are not a viable part of the loosely defined group. In other words, egg shakers should stay on their own side of the tracks? Hate is hate, no matter how humorously it's presented. When someone feels invaded, they get pissed. I don't think that's abnormal. Retaliation is generally stupid by nature and obnoxious teenage behavior is more likely to lean toward non-subtlety. What are they going to do? Nooses. If the problem was with girls invading 'their' space? Pads...and that would make it sexist instead of racist? I fully agree that hatred and injustice are wrong...and shame on the generations that have taught/allowed this problem to have happened. Punishment does no good when the punished have not learned the concept of Consequences and/or Personal Responsibility. Shame on all of us for not knowing how in the world to fix what is broken..I, for one, am beginning to dread the upcoming Civil War Sesquicentennial. As a human being, I am ashamed of intolerance, irresponsible reactivism and bullying. What's gained by arguing to save our own opinion when a little open minded acceptance might give us a chance of understanding something that was maybe a little bit hazy or unformed in our thoughts when the thread began? If we can't talk here without feeling threatened, how are we going to be part of the Solution? Hanging noose-like items in a tree is decidedly creepy, but I believe the story started before that. I don't think any of us know why, with that many peer witnesses, there was only one kid with injuries. It seems to me that if the whole story was racially oriented, his friends would have gotten riled and joined the mess. I think we all agree that injustice is wrong and therefore must be stopped. However, I'm certain that the media spectacle is not going to provide enough information for any of us to figure out how to Save the World. The responsibility for figuring that out lies within our selves. Cutting down the tree seems a lot like locking the barn after the horse was stolen and since it was apparently a popular tree, it seems like cutting it down would escalate tension instead of making it go away...but then again, a person who can't figure out why good folks would get bloodthirsty over Shaky Egg Intolerance could easily be mistaken about logical repercussions. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 13 Oct 07 - 06:49 PM Melissa--- the story took a decidedly different turn when the nooses appeared. It was escalated to a different level. If I'm driving down the street and a black dude cuts me off, and I yell out 'stupid asshole!' that's one thing. It's quite another, and apt to escalate considerably more quickly if I yell out 'stupid nigger!' Heck, he probably knows and accepts that he's an asshole. But almost no self-respecting black man considers himself a 'nigger,' as the term is applied to him by a white man. New game, new rules, at that point. I've just invoked a few years of oppression and bigotry in order to 'put him in his place.' Of course, it would still be illegal for him to come over and beat the living crap out of me. That might not stop him. And a jury of his peers might well find him 'not guilty.' And maybe they should. You use the analogy of pads as a misogynist symbol. Okay, that would be one kind of statement. But what if the symbol, instead, said 'no wimmen allowed: violators will be raped'? Nooses displayed to black folks; rape threatened to women; swastikas spray-painted on synagogues: All of these are more serious than mere epithets because they evoke the very symbols of oppression and genocide which cause, and are intended to cause, visceral feelings ranging from anger to terror in those to whom they're directed. I submit that if the Jena 6 (or the black folks of Jena) had been given justice--- the right to sit under the shade tree at the high school--- in the first place, this whole thing wouldn't have gotten out of hand. No justice, no peace. Isn't that the saying? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM "And a jury of his peers might well find him 'not guilty.' And maybe they should." That's what we need. Some more racially-motivated law enforcement. Look--there's a fundamental difference between abuse (verbal, symbolic or verbal) and physical harm. At most, the nooses were a bigoted, venom-filled, abusive, stupid example of a hate misdemeanor. As were the nooses and the caricature/swastika at Columbia. Perpetrators should be punished. Appropriately Which in no way excuses violent reprisals. Is it only a vigilante action when majority dudes do it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 13 Oct 07 - 10:47 PM Hey, y'all. It's real hard to get the egg back in the hen (if ya know what I mean). |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 13 Oct 07 - 11:51 PM Something that leads to the obvious conclusion probably didn't take the story a different direction. Somebody was looking for a fight and the storyline (as far as we know) didn't deviate from that goal. The nooses are an obvious step toward escalation, but that's not where the story started. There are a lot of sayings, GregB. At the instant when you're calling someone an asshole for cutting you off, you're looking for a fight. Fortunately, in most cases, the fight doesn't happen. Sometimes it does happen though and nobody has any way of knowing the full story because each person involved happens to think of themselves as a person. Confrontation is an aggressive attempt to defend individuality. Implied threat of rape. Implied threat of lynching. Which one is the media spectacle when it turns from implication to reality? The discussion at hand is a case where we're being given information that manages to distract most of us from the underlying problem. There were more than seven kids present at the fight. Where were they during the beating? Why one white kid? Why not the whole treestump gang? Why not three noose hangers? There are gaps in the story and basing a judgement on the parts we know does not advance our collective grasp of the underlying problem. Without knowing the full story and having the capability of completely understanding exactly what the tree issue was/is, WHY would you assume that justice would have prevailed IF the 6 had been given the spot? BandAids are not an effective treatment for fractures. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Donuel Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM My neighbor has hung a cardboard black man in Halloween in effigy on the telephone pole with a noose in front of their home. The telephone pole is on city easement property so I bet a controversey could be raised. There is no sign indicating the hanging is intended for anything except Halloween entertainment. The people who did this of course display their Bush Christmas cards at the entrance to their house and speak in in proud language that Rumsfeld and Cheney are great Americans. I have also heard them use all the code word regarding their embracing the core values of racism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Donuel Date: 14 Oct 07 - 09:52 AM Down here the polite excuse for racism is "Its just their way" Hey would you like a picture of the lyching display next door to judge for yourself? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 14 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM Are you offering me a picture, Donuel? Maybe you could send it to someone in a position to help you DO something instead. I'm sure the media would be glad to see it if your Locals can't/won't make a healthy effort. I don't understand why you haven't called the phone company and asked them to clean their pole. If you're afraid to call, give me the number of your phone company and I'll do it. Where I'm from, the polite term for doing nothing when a problem is identified is "horseshit" and snarling at strangers is considered impolite. It sounds like your community needs something. You're the leader, tell me what I can do to help. Good effort toward making the world less ugly is never wasted. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: katlaughing Date: 14 Oct 07 - 01:10 PM Noose-hanging is popular right now, it seems: By Tom Hays, Associated Press | October 13, 2007 NEW YORK - A copycat may have been involved in the second of two incidents this week in which nooses were found, first on a black professor's door at Columbia University and then outside a post office near ground zero, police said yesterday. Speaking to reporters following a ceremony at a police memorial, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly suggested that the noose outside the post office could have been an attempt to imitate the discovery at Columbia, which shocked the Ivy League campus and received extensive news coverage. "We have to be concerned about a copycat being out there," he said, adding that police had no suspects or motives in either incident. At Columbia, detectives were still reviewing several hours of videotape captured by a half dozen security cameras in and around the building where the noose was found Tuesday morning. It was strung over the office doorknob of Madonna Constantine, a professor of education and psychology who has written extensively about race. In the other case, the noose was found Thursday dangling from a lamppost above some scaffolding erected around the post office, which was closed for nearly three years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks because of contamination from asbestos, mercury, and debris from the fallen twin towers. "At this point, there was no target that was evident or any motive," a US Postal Inspection Service spokesman, Al Weissman, said yesterday morning. He said no postal workers had reported any threats or other problems. Both incidents were being investigated by the New York City Police Department's hate crimes unit, which returned to the Ivy League campus Thursday after a caricature of a yarmulke-wearing man and a swastika was found on a university bathroom stall door. Police said there was no reason to believe the two campus incidents were linked. © Copyright 2007 Globe Newspaper Company. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 14 Oct 07 - 07:50 PM Dick--- Greenhaus. That's a Jewish name, isn't it? Suppose I paint a swastika on your daughter's (or grand-daughter's) window, because she maybe slapped our cousin 'Beau' in the face when he said that he heard that Jewish girls were easy? Then we get her cell-phone number and text her a few messages threatening rape. You go to the sheriff. He ignores you. You're a Jew, and convenient because you own a local business, but that doesn't mean he has to like you. You and your sons kick my butt. Do you have pangs of conscience and say that my behavior doesn't excuse yours? Do you surrender yourself and your sons for incarceration, leaving your daughter/grand-daughter undefended? Or do you make it very clear--- 'mess with one of us and you mess with all of us?' |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 14 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM Greg- I never have, and never will join a lynch mob. And hanging a noose-like object, reprehensible as it may be, is not the equivalent of having "You and your sons kick my butt.". Certainly not with a time interval of several weeks. I have been attacked, physically for being Jewish--and I responded in kind. THat simply is not what's being discussed here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 15 Oct 07 - 07:51 AM Well, I think what both Melissa dn Greg are saying is not all that far apart... Yes there are missing parts from the story and it is exactly that that makes the controversy... Why weren't the white kids criminally charged for hanging the noose??? Why were the sespensions lifted??? Why were there no charges brought against the white students who beat one of the Jena 6 black students days before the white kid was beaten??? Yes, there are missing parts of the story... Just as in the old train accident log that I possess where there are entries that read like this: "Unindentified Male Negro, 20 to 25 years of age, found dead on the tracks 2 miles west of Short Pump..." This is what many of us are trying to get others to see... Institutional racism is all about holes in the story becuase, all to often, the official story ins't that from an American perspective but from white America's perspective... Take our own supposed "American History" that is taught in schools... It is chocked full of mythology and white perspectives... This is why this has become a story... White America resents that it has become a story and would love nothing more than to leave out the missing parts and that seems to be where this is going... I can't see the white power structure in Jena, having come this far to cover-up it's own comlicity, all of a sudden saying, "Let's talk straight..." That is what ***institutional*** racism is all about... It is part of our ***culture*** to not "Let's talk"... I'm really not placing blame on any one individual because what we are seeing is the way that our people have been educated to bahave,,, That is why, in my HO, it is time to "talk"... We can't begin to tout our country as a just one when there isn't one universal standard of justice... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:02 AM "Why weren't the white kids criminally charged for hanging the noose???" Hanging nooses is not against the law. "Why were the sespensions lifted???" They shouldn't have been, and that's what really started things into motion that eventually built a fire under Al Sharpton. "Why were there no charges brought against the white students who beat one of the Jena 6 black students days before the white kid was beaten???" If the media is reporting on this, I haven't seen it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 15 Oct 07 - 10:29 AM In his New York Times Op-Ed (referenced somewhere above) the Jena DA claimed that he referred the issue of the nooses to the US attorney for the area. He was careful to point out that said US attorney is a black man. (I was careful to point out that he's a Bush administration official who survived the 'purge.') His claim was that the US Attorney found that the nooses were not a "hate crime" and thus not a violation of federal law. That's not the way I read the federal statute. In fact, I can't fathom a reasonable person reading it that way. School = protected activity. Noose = actual violence or threat of violence. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM The hate crime statute under which the investigations of the NYC noose incidents that Katlaughing posted above is essentially the same as the the Louisiana law--so, in fact, hanging nooses *is* against the law. However, prosecutions are strictly at the discretion of the prosecutor, and he has chosen not to act in this matter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM The statue in question is a FEDERAL one, not a state one. It was under that statute that the federal prosecutor declined to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:52 AM GregB--I think that you've stepped way over the line with your "Greenhaus, that's a...." comment. In your own way you're hanging a noose on a tree, because you don't like what Dick has to say-- When you invoke the holocaust,call attention to his ethnicity, and are very specific as to some of the terrors that people of his background have been subjected to, the message can easily be construed as hateful--I hope that it was only an over-zealous, and ill-considered remark. An apology, quick, and profuse, would appropriate here-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM Gentlemen, it's time to take a look at the remarks we're posting here. I see no point turning this thread into a spiteful thread. The problem is in Jena, USA, not Mudcat, World. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:24 PM Ted, the only line I crossed is one that you might make up after the fact about political correctness. I'm not real concerned about that one. It was indeed probably because of their shared experience that American Jews were amongst the first white folks to in great numbers and with great effect embrace the question of civil rights for African Americans. That experience indeed goes beyond the Holocaust, and extends to CENTURIES of being the subject of terrible acts of violence with no redress in the legal system. And, while this was happening, they were exploited for their 'useful' services. C.F. Venice in the Renaissance. It is failure to mention that connection which does a disservice to all. I submit, Ted, that you're not so much worried about the way the point was made, but afraid of the point itself and using the politically correct fog of pseudo-indignation to try and negate it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:36 PM Lots of words and very little communication. The things we're thinking/feeling are too big for our vocabulary..although we're an undeniably brilliant bunch. I'm out. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 15 Oct 07 - 01:51 PM I am talking about Louisiana Statute RS 14:225, linked to above--the one that the local prosecutor is responsible enforcing--most hate crimes are investigated by "hate crime squads" that are operated under the authority of state and local governments--the federal government prosecutes relatively few hate crimes--the Federal Hate Crime statute applies only if a Federal Felony of Violence has been committed- Here is a quote from the following article, from the Houston Chronicle Federal Prosecution of Hate Crimes >Donald Washington, the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Louisiana, chose not to >pursue hate crime charges against the three teens accused of hanging nooses at Jena High >School because it could not be established that the nooses were meant to intimidate black >classmates. He also did not bring hate-crime charges against the Jena Six, black students >accused of attacking a white classmate, because there was no evidence the beating was >acially motivated. >Washington said that the noose-hanging would have been a misdemeanor anyway and a hate->crime must be "a federal felony of violence." Note that the federal prosecutor indicated that he considered the noose-hanging to be misdemeanor--which means that it could have been prosecuted under Louisiana law(see the link above), had the local prosecutor wanted to do so, but that it didn't meet the criteria of the Federal Law-- The only investigation of these crimes was conducted locally-- the information on the crimes that the federal prosecutor received came only from Reed Walters, the local prosecutor, who had decided already that there were no racial motivations in the noose hangings--so obviously, he wouldn't have made a strong case to the federal prosecutor that it was a racial incident-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Oct 07 - 03:29 PM Just to clarify my position-- I have no idea whether or not a legal case can be mede for considering noose hanging as a hate crime. I think the principal's proposed action in suspending the culprits was an appropriate one. I think that the white kids who assaulted a black kid should be prosecuted, and I think that a failure to prosecute them is unconscionable. THose in authority should be investigated and punished appropriately. I don't think any of the above justifies--in any way-- te actions of the six black kids who beat up a white kid. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 15 Oct 07 - 08:33 PM Well, as I have pointed out before, it's up to the asdults to bring the charges... It's up to the judges and juries to figure it out... Hate crimes is federal... When a noose was recently found at a black progfessors office it was being invetigated as a hate crime... If the prosecutor in Jena had at the very least mentioned that thease white kids could have possibly be brought up on hate crime charges then a ***real*** message would have been sent... He didn't, and in not doing so sent another message: Jim Coew is just okay, with us, long as you don't kill nobody... This is a terrible message to send... All it doen is enforce all the emotions that both blacks and whites have had to live with going back a long, long time... Melissa, Don't quit now... It's just gettin' good... I mean, meaningful... You can't just stop in and if you don't persuade everyone with your opinions then quit... That ain't what discussions are about... And this discussion is long overdue... Yes, I fully understand Dick's position and it is one that is heal be lots of people... I don't find fault with it if it is taken purely as one incident... No, we cannot condone violent acts, period... But we cannot condone acts of threatned violence, either... That is what is at issue here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:26 PM Read the link above on Federal Prosecution of Hate Crimes, Bobert, you will be unpleasantly surprised. Most hate crimes are investigate and prosecuted by state and local jurisdictions, under state laws, not federal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:54 AM And I'll clarify my position (in spite of attempts at PC censorship). Whereas retaliatory racial violence may or may not be objectively justified, it is the inevitable result when racial violence is initiated by the dominant group, and where justice is not given by other members of that dominant group who are duty-bound to enforce the law. It is fairly easy, from the point of view of one who is not the member of a group which is currently under organized attack, or oppression to criticize those who either, in a calculated manner, return violence for violence, or lash out in anger at members of the dominant group. To demand a 'civilized' and 'reasoned' response from those who face oppression and organized violence is, however, to buy right into what dominant groups who have most of the guns and the courts and the laws and the prisons and the economic power have done for a long time...to declare that the ones with grievances are nothing but hooligans, thugs and 'terrorists.' The results become clear--- the 'White Night' and Rodney King riots, Watts, Newark, Detroit. Closer to home, the 9/11 attacks and the aftermath bear witness to what happens when we sit in our positions of power and refuse to act justly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: dick greenhaus Date: 16 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM Greg- A spirited and coherent defense of lynch mobs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM I guess I am the one who is politically correct here, and my ears are burning-- Greg B, you sure have showed us all what's what, with your regurgitation of warmed over 60's Marxist political analysis-- By the way, it's been 40 years since Newark and Watts and Detroit, where's your Revolution? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:53 PM I agree, Bobert. The conversation is inching away from spouting and into a small handful of people sharing their perspectives. The topic's practical aspect is that we can talk in here without the risk of a FireEater riling us into reacting as a mindless group. We're on our own to do whatever we will with the tidbits we selectively pluck from everybody's opinions. There's no point in saying the same thing over and over. When/if I have something to say, I will. In the meantime, I'm perfectly content following along from the sidelines. I honestly believe that we're stepping into a time of More tension, and it worries me. Treating each incident as an individual outburst (which may or may not fit the mysterious guidelines for becoming a Media Spectacle) seems unwise and unhealthy. Jena is not the Disease..it is a Symptom. The North/South argument was too big to handle at the time and it's still too big. It was not resolved and every one of us is living with that history. When we try to communicate, we are following the footsteps of Jefferson's basic idea when he was fighting to promote a government based on input from Common Man. I think it's a good thing for us to do when we're talking AND listening. Pompous pronouncements are pretty much a waste of earspace, but that's ok too. It's all part of trying to communicate. My ego is ok. I don't need to care whether I've won anyone to my bandwagon. What I hope to gain by following this discussion is a chance to be a little bit more prepared as the CivWar anniversary draws near. I'm likely to end up participating in a few events. It's not the era I prefer (which is pre-1840) but it's the one at hand and there's a niche for me that I'll enjoy. I just want to be as prepared as I possibly can, even if I opt out of attending events. CivWar is an angry topic for a lot of people and the anniversary stuff is going to start being visible before long. Planning for Lewis and Clark was handled poorly. I see no reason to believe CW will be handled much better and it's a much more incendiary topic. When I read what you all say, I'll learn. I just don't have anything to add at this time and sometimes being quiet is the noble option to take. My question isn't whether nooses are a hate crime. I think we all agree that whether they're legal or not, it's Wrong to hang them around. My question is what can be done about the ones who don't feel that there's anything wrong with feeling justified in doing things like that. My question falls outside the surface topic of Jena which is what we've come to this thread to discuss. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 16 Oct 07 - 11:44 PM "My question is what can be done about the ones who don't feel that there's anything wrong with feeling justified in doing things like that." The people who hang the nooses, as far as we know, were kids too. They very well might have realized that there was something wrong with what they did if the principal's original punishment had been left to stand. It seems as though Congress is now getting involved. Some members think that the noose hanging should be investigated as a federal "Hate Crime." If that process is pursued to its obvious conclusion, there are going to be some very angry young people getting out of jail in a few years. Is this the way to address racism? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Peace Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:09 PM Good point. Sure as hell's afire, the courts are making a mess of it all. And the people from their school board, and anyone else who thinks this is about hatred and race. It's about a lack of understanding and race. Therein is the difficulty. It makes me "Remember the Titans." |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:24 PM Yes, Rigs, this is ***exactlty*** the way we are going to get the attention of kids who plead ignorance... Ignorance is not an excuse.... Bring up a couple of white kids who think it's cool to hang nooses and find them guilty of "hate crimes" and sentence them to a couple hundred hours of coummunity service workin' in places that service poor people an' guess what??? Two or three high profile cases and white kids (and black kids) will get it!!! Right now, what we have is the exact opposite... White kids are made to be heros among their piers for hanging nooses... Melissa, Thanks fir hangin' in here... You is a purdy smart lady... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 17 Oct 07 - 10:08 PM I suppose my cure for ingorance is education. And maybe the principal didn't go far enough, but he suspended the students, and he was countermanded for even doing that. It tells you that there are honest people down there. If the kids know better, they can't plead ignorance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM How do you propose the education be done, Riginslinger? I know the Jena situation was kids..but I can't think of a single age group that would willingly embrace teachings that run contrary to what they understand/accept as 'right'--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique. If there was a way to get everybody in the country to participate in a workshop/lecture series where the message was "Everybody is equal. That means nobody is worse than you..and it also means nobody is better than you" there would be a large percentage who would leave the sessions thinking "hey, I never thought of it that way, but it makes sense" and there'd also be a percentage thinking "what a load of shit" The kids have access to as much positive propaganda as the rest of us. They (and many others) choose not to learn. Some of them are 'going along' but some no doubt feel justified in doing things that they know society considers Wrong..whether they consider it wrong themselves or not. Sometimes people feel justified in doing things that they know are wrong--and feeling justified feels like Right. I don't think anybody would disagree that the whole country could use some education. Some of us could benefit from more rewiring than others and even with some extremely intelligent deep, extensive thought, there will always be folks who resist for one reason or another. Some like being mean. Some think everybody else needs some learning but They're ok. Some would simply resist because that's just what they do. Some enjoy rivalry. Nearly everyone is ready to say "Yes! Educate THEM" but I think it's bigger than that. We're all lacking something and I don't think there's one answer that will even make a dent toward solving the mess. We'd all be glad to see THEM educated, huh? I have pretty good discretion, but I absolutely detest clowns. When I see one, I get away. I do not beat them up and have not made an effort to find out what the obvious symbol for Clown Intolerance is. I have no interest in embracing the idea that they're a wholesome part of life. How would you educate me out of this? Every one of us has weird mindsets. I'm in a position to influence children..the children and I are in a position to influence our community. Our small town is peacefully diverse. Our town has a festering situation which is not race related, but it IS being done in the name of retaliation/comeuppance and hate by a group working together to teach us a lesson. It pisses me off and scares me. How would you teach me around reacting when the time comes for my community to defend itself? Is it wrong for my community to defend itself? The other group feels justified. Are they wrong? They're making strikes and when the festernal restraints burst, it will appear that the community started it. We have asked for help from our State and been ignored. Our story sounds unbelievable and absurd and from the outside, I'm sure it looks like the townies are crazy...at least it would look like we're crazy if we were still trying to get help by talking. For a purdy smart lady, I do tend to ramble on in an unladylike manner at times..but I'm trying to ramble open-mindedly in hopes that I'll learn something along the line. Maybe I'll figure out a way to keep MY town out of the news. Maybe I'll figure out how to help direct upcoming CivWar events in a way that can avoid friction. Saving the World begins at home. There are honest people everywhere, Riginslinger. I imagine that town is a miserable place to be these days. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM Hmmmmmm, M, I thought that you were talkin' about my town!?!?!... Seems there is a culture/cancer on the moral fablic of our society that says intolerance is just fine... And I don't see any major movement, other than groups like Interfaith, that are carrying the message that it ain't fine... I mean, we have a president (slight thread drift) who has publicly stated "you're either with us or against us"... There is now way to find common ground with that attitude... We need a major shift in thinking... We need another Dr. King... But until then, we need to have the courgae to enforce "hate crime" laws... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM "--unless you're promoting the idea of some kind of brainwashing technique." Melissa - Brainwashing is what they are vicitms of now, I think, and I don't know what to suggest as for your aversion to clowns. I think Al Sharpton is a clown, and Jena would probably be better off if he went away. I think the concept of a "hate crime" is self defeating. I don't think you can punish people for their thoughts, and hanging nooses simply isn't a crime. I would agree it's provocative, and bad form, and should be punishable by school officials but not by agents of courts. By education, I guess I've noticed that people who seem to drift into racist groups seem like the very least educated people I've run across, and people who do not are usually more aware of what's going on around them. It further seems to me that with all of the anthropolical and genetic information that's available to day, not to mention all of the scientific findings that become public every day, I just can't imagine how anyone in this day and age can continue to believe in terms of "superior and inferior" races. It would have been more believable with Hitler in the 1940's, and probably understandable with Columbus in 1492, but not now. I find the same disbelief in people who continue to follow various ancient superstitions, given all of the knowledge that's out there today, and I doubt very much if you could find an atheist who is a racists at the same time. I think there is a connection here. Find someone who will happily believe in fairy tales, and you'll find a person who can be molded into racism. I doubt if "work shops" will do it, but if you can get people to simply deal with reality, I think you'll be well on your way to stamping out racism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM How? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Donuel Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM The best advice is to ignore the next noose like piece of rope you see. Its always best to ignore the troll. And for God's sake don't tell Sharpton anything. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Oct 07 - 02:08 PM "How?" Leave religion in the past where it belongs, and deal with reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM So..if we could just get everybody to ditch religion, it would all go away? All religions, or shall we just select the ones we disapprove of? What in the world does that notion have in common with Reality? I thought you were going to tell me how the Education Plan could be done. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM Well, Rigs, our current "reality" is that most folks in this country consider themselves, ahhhhh, religious... This is the hand that we are playing... And most people according to a recent USA Today poll don't even believe in science anymore as a majority of Americans believe in creationism with Adam and Eve being created less than 10,000 years ago... Why is this??? Simple... The Ruling Class wants people dumb and at each other's throats so they spend lots of money creating meaningless wedge issues to keep people from seein' that it's not one's believe in evolution v. creationism taht really matters but why it is that their family's income has been stagnant for the last 20 years and why stuff is so expensive at a time when the Ruling Class is telling US that we have never had it so good... Racism is one of the tools used by the Ruling Class... It's nuthin' new... Goes back to the old therory of "divide and conquer" so they keep US divided... This ain't about Dems or Repubs... It's about the folks who have corraled all the country's assests for themselves... Yeah, it's easy to say that eductaion can lead US out of this mess and that is absolutely true... But don't count on Boss Hog's school systems that tailor the curriculum to keep kids from learning to think... Most of the teachers came thru the same sytem and aren't able to think either... Oh sure, they are dedicated... I can't fault them tat... But most are completely incapable of independent thought... And guess what??? One of the great eductationhal tools is Hollywood and Hollywood, contrary to the right wing's pronouncement that it's all a bunch of liberals, ain't makin' the kinds of movies anymore that push people to think... Those days are gone... So it comes down to having to educate people thru enforcing laws... Yeah, law enforcement can be a powerfull eductaional tool and, at present, is IMO, all we have until the new breed of evangelicals gain a foothold... No one ever said it was going to be easy to kill Jim CDrow and it's very possible that Jim Crow cannot be killed but we kicked his butt purdy good in the 60's and he's due for another... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Oct 07 - 06:57 PM It's probably important to point out that the Ku Klux Klan, the World Church of the Creator, and the Aryan Nations are all religious organizations. None of these folks would be terribly helpful in any effort to solve the frustration of racism. Of course, that's just my opinion. It is further my opinion that any attempt to reason with these folks would not be fruitful unless they could be induced to digest factual, scientific information that would prove to them that a superior race is not biologically possible, or at least highly improbable. But when confronted with the truth as I have come to know it, they simply run off into their fairy tale worlds, where they feel snug and cozy, and happily deny reality. I think this is basically the way religion works, though it is more extreme for some than others. So if you are really going to get down to the brass-tacks of solving complicated issues like racism, you have to get everyone to the bargaining table in a sober state of mind. I submit that that is going to be very hard to do as long as there are Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons out there telling gullible people that they just need to "trust in the lord," and that facing reality is not realy necessary. They can gleefully hang nooses, beat people who look different than themselves, roll around on the floor of the church on Sunday morning, god forgives them, and on Monday morning they are ready to go out and beat somebody else. There's no end in sight, as long as there's a built in escape mechanism like religion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:39 PM Bobert - I agree with everything you say in the posting above. I understand that that's the hand we're dealt, and we have to make the best of it. Still, I don't see how anything is lost in trying to broker a better deal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:03 PM The best deal is the deal where everyone finally gets it, Rigs... The better deal is where enough folks get it to put and keep pressure on those who don't... The Pat Robertsons and the James Dobsons aren't the future of the evangelical movement... They are the history... There is a wave of new hip evangelicals... They are called "new churchs", I believe... These folks are not only ready to cut a deal with the left but anxious... These evangelicals have taken up two major left issues, the envirnoment and the way we treat our poor... I beliebve this is the deal that we are in the process of seein' made... Yeah, we need to get these newbees into the fold and once that has occured then "nooses" aren't too much of a stretch (no pun intended)... I am not all that fatlistic about our future... But I am very much suspect of our school system as any vehicle for changing a culture of racism... The courts and the new churches, IMO, are going to lead the way... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:11 PM I think if we treated our schools with a little more respect they might help us a great deal. I think only the public schools can do that, though, as a general rule. Giving people vouchers to send their children to church camp only leads us farther back into the dark ages. Frankly, I don't have a lot of hope for any kind of churches, new or otherwise. We could look at it as an evolutionary process, I suppose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:48 PM I don't suppose it's ever occurred to those of you who disparage religion here that the civil rights movement and the anti-slavery movement before it weredriven by religious groups, and were and are closely tied to religious groups. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 12:51 AM Ok, someone earlier said we need a new Dr King. Let's stop the religion thing before it turns into full-out bashing, and go with the idea of "what if we had a new leader willing to take this on" This Fearless Leader believes that the symptoms stem from frustration...and the theory s/he is going on is that we first need to identify and eliminate the sources of Frustration which are resulting in violence, hatred, intolerance, etc. It seems logical for FL to begin the "Fix Campaign" in the area close to home. What process would you have our hypothetical FL follow to successfully make a noticeable improvement? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM To begin with, hopefully our new FL would not be the Reverend FL, or he wouldn't have any credibility. And if he/she wasn't, then he'd have to make sure people were coming to the discussion without any hidden agendas of their own, and were actually in the process to find honest solutions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 05:25 PM Apparently, I was too subtle in my invitation to step off the religion soapbox for a while. I was asking what process FL should follow. It makes sense to define the job before taking applications. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM I think FL would have to study the proponents of racism to begin with. For a long time I had trouble figuring out why poor whites in the 1860's would eagerly go out and fight for the South, when it would obviously be in their economic interest not to do so. I finally figured out that having somebody to look down on was more important to them than economic prosperity. I think this is still a strong motivator for the useful idiots of racism. The leaders, like David Duke and Matthew Hale want power, so they need followers. I think FL would need to concentrate on the followers. I was in Northern Idaho a few years ago when the Aryan Nations organization was chewed up by the political forces of Morris Dees. I would run into some of the rank & file memebership, from time to time, and I'm here to tell you, none of them will ever be candidates for Mensa. The one thing they thought they had going for them was the strength of their numbers. I get the impression that as long as they, as a group, could gain a feeling of self worth by putting down other people, they were content and vitalized, and were scared literally to death at the thought of losing their social hand-hold in the world. Morris Dees was sucessful in scattering them, and putting a few of them in jail, but the others were more committed than ever to pursue their endeavers. I think the Morris Dees approach does more harm than good. In any event, I've run on long enough, but the key to the whole thing, I think, is to appeal to their intellect and not try to appeal to their spiritual. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:55 PM I'll gladly agree that FL would not get far on a campaign designed to 'convert' (sorry, can't think of another handy word at the moment) through a spiritual appeal. I do think a successful approach would need to use church, school, media, etc as Tools though. Presuming FL turns out to have very strong Leadership qualities, I believe it's possible to cover more area by wise use of what's available and established. No reason to reinvent the wheel. Besides, that's where the easiest meeting places are. What would encourage people to attend a (what would the rallys be called?) gathering thing? Nothing is gained if nobody is interested. I believe there's a fair percentage of people who would be willing to do a little bit toward a positive impact if they could be lured to listen. I think most people like to learn and nearly everybody abhors being talked down to. So, FL has learned the history from about 1700 up to now..from a variety of sources and perspectives so he can talk confidently. Is it more effective for him to pull them as Followers..or to plant a seed and send them out hoping for the best? Would it be more productive to try for the unaffiliated, or to aim directly at the ones already following a path of hatred? I honestly would like to see if a reasonable plan can be worked out by simply talking back and forth. Ideas are easy, Implementation isn't. I imagine a lot of folks have ideas about what should be done but I've never seen a plan for How. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:26 PM Frankly, I think you need to leave the concept of "church" out of it. These are places set up for the purpose of meeting, but they suffer from the same disfunctional qualities that the racist organizations suffer from. The congregation sees itself as a group established to protect itself from other groups. I think that's why most of the wars in the world are religiously based--Jews against Islamists--Protestants against Catholics--Hindus against Moslems, and etc. Either that, or they are really economic struggles and the sides identify themselves by religion. The struggle in Ireland was a lot like that. I don't think you can treat them as followers. I think you need to treat them as people. I think that's why the Morris Dees approach doesn't work. He wants to attack the leaders and ingore the follower, so the followers simply seek out another leader, often worse than the first one. Frankly, as far as the black and white problem in America, I think MLK went as far as he could with it. I think Barbara Jordan might have carried the ball a little farther down the field, if she'd lived, but... What you need is Jesus Christ without religion, and that's a pretty tall order. The Dali Lama might be able to spare a few moments of his time, now that he's no longer tied up in Washington, but then, of course, he's a Buddhist, so that probably won't work either. Maybe ten thousand Johnny Appleseeds would fill the bill. Whatever the case, the haters would have to be treated as partners and equals, I think, for any kind of progress to be made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:55 PM Rigs, You say you want to deal with reality... But then you want to keep the discussion of religion and churches out of this discussion... That, my frined, is not dealing with reality... Face it, our population prides itself on religion and attending church... This is our "reality" and this is where the3 seeds will be planted that lead people to think differently... Look at the Christain Right... It has successfully used religion to harnhess hatred and intollerance... The tables are slowly turning away from the Christain Right toward the Christain Center or in many churches, the Christain Left... The new breed of Evangelicals are more concerned with the environoment and poverty than they are about Republican wedge issues... Hey, I ain't Bible thumpin' here... I'm just tryin' to say that if we are going to bring about a fundamental (poor word) change in out collective attitudes that we won't do it without the churches... Like I said, the schools is like a stacked deck of cards... Teacher do the best they can but the curriculum is being controlled by the right wing... And the right winf don't want teachers taliin' about civil rights, sex education or evolution, for that matter... What we are teaching our kids is revisionistic mythology... What we are not doing is telling our kids the truth... And we are not teaching our kids to, ahhhhhh, think... I'll repeat it one more time: Don't expect this current school system to have any impact on institutional racism... It is incapable... Plus, now the Robert's Court couldn't care less about our schools even being intergrated??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM Yes, if Johnny Applechrist is trying to urge people toward a more socially healthy mentality, it would be essential for him to treat everyone on all sides as equals/partners...even when they refused to respond in kind. It seems to me that FL would need to start being listened to long before the shriekers knew he was on the bandwagon. There is a lot of Power for those peddling hate and they won't give it up easily. Therefore, I think it would be best to ease in with non-affiliateds first. Propaganda campaign? We're a society of inane slogans..FL will need some in order to help his first subscribers have some idea of how to share the message. If the plan involved gathering folks up, helping them unite and prepare for individual action as leaders on their own, propaganda will assist in keeping the idea from getting bastardized along the way by insiders. FL hasn't even made a trip to the library to begin historical background learning..might turn out best for him to stay completely ground-level as the process develops, in which case, the 'converts' (going to need a word to use instead of converts/followers soon) can take the information and do whatever they want--and leave our seed sprinkler out of that part entirely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:17 PM Bobert, How does our hypothetical Fearless Leader go about teaching/encouraging people to Think? I agree..it's becoming a lost skill. It's not that hard to teach kids to Think (Manners too..another lost skill) but our FL would be dealing mostly with adults. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:02 PM "Look at the Christain Right... It has successfully used religion to harnhess hatred and intollerance..." And it bends it to its own ends, which usually means generating profit. "Yes, if Johnny Applechrist is trying to urge people toward a more socially healthy mentality, it would be essential for him to treat everyone on all sides as equals/partners...even when they refused to respond in kind." Ten thousand Woody Guthries might do it. Now that we have the ability, maybe we could exhume and clone. What do you think? Bobert: I think you're giving up on public schools too early in the game. Howard Zinn says we can correct a lot of what's wrong with America by simply doubling teacher's saleries. I think he's on to something. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:13 PM Well, my guess is that cloning might be an option to consider..but only if he wasn't embalmed. I think we've probably got enough leaders made of plastic and chemicals for now. I don't think throwing money to the teachers without raising the expectations AND preparing them better would make much difference. However, as long as their school boards allow it, I bet they'd be glad to use FLs propaganda packets in classrooms...and they'd probably show an interest in a Field Trip or Assembly if it was provided for them. School boards might approve if FL tosses them a free t-shirt. What slogan works for them? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:43 PM I think what Zinn had in mind was this: if you double teacher's salaries now, a number of people would be getting a lot more money than they're really worth. But, in the not too distant future, you would start attracting a lot of talented people who would be teachers but find better paying jobs now in medicine, law, and industry. Within a reasonable period of time, the mediocre teachers would begin to retire--probably with the worst getting out first--and you could really get education in America on a forward thinking track. It would solve a lot of the acedemic problems the country faces now, and I think it would go a long way to getting a handle on social problems like racism. I think it would make a difference. The slogan that school boards could use on the Tee shirts I'm sure they wouldn't wear is: PROBLEMS - LET'S WORK TO SOLVE THEM |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:51 PM They might be especially unwilling to wear them if the front said "Problems" and the rest was on the back? Raising the salary and expecting it to take a few years to show a difference probably would be a good thing..makes sense to me. There'd be more people willing to compete for the job and that would mean a broader variety of options for each school. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 19 Oct 07 - 09:56 PM Well, Rigs, Howard Zinn is absolutely correct but lets getr back to the politics of education... The folks who have made it their crusade to control our schools are the same folks who blindly vote Republican... These are not independent thinkers... Thay are "rule people"... Yeah, lots and lots of rules... R%ules, rules and more rules... And don't tell my kids about sex... That's my job... Even tho they never quite getting around to actually doing it, mind you... Yeah, this is School Board, USA... Bunch of reactionaries... Especially in the South and Midwest... Bunch of Nazis... And so the schools continue to churn out rote-memory-nazi kids who can't think... This is the real deal... I have no faith that this will change in my life time... It hasn't in the last 40 years, that much is for sure... Now as the FL??? Yeah, beyond the strickness of our public school system, people of all ages yern to be challenged... Yeah the "game" is everything... That is one thing that schools do well... Games, games and more games because games are like war... You have winners and loosers and this is the USA and we always win... Right??? So the next FL will make it a game... Dr. King, in a way, made it a game... Yeah, the next FL will figure out the dynamics of social change and use the current culture against itself, much they way that Dr. King did... It ain't rocket science... The template is there... The candidate??? Maybe there and maybe not... Time will tell... Onbe thing is for sure and that is the USA in in some deep sh*t on many fault lines an' if it is to survive it's own feelings of importance it will have to face it's weakest links... Institutional racism has to be at the very top of the weakest links list... If we win this one we will have changed out collective thinking and be able to better serve as a role modle for the rest of the world... Right now, we are sending out the wrong message... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:25 PM yup, wrong messages galore.. FL won't stand a chance of doing anything without a catchy approach. Game sounds like a good strategy..I was thinking along the lines of pleasant/fun--getting people involved before they realized they were involved. A competitive out-to-win type game might not work so well since there's a rampant tendency to knock down anybody who might be standing in the way already. It's a serious issue full of confrontation..Play sounds like a sensible way to keep on track and avoid drastic break-downs. I sort of think the deadly part of both church and school is mostly Power junk and screwy priorities/boundaries. I agree that if they're not going to teach responsibility and relationship stuff (basic getting along..not dating and such) the topic of sex should be left alone. FLs campaign should avoid discussions of sex and jesus in equal measure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,St Timoniousness Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:54 AM ahhhhemmmmm! My daughter, ye've failed to capitalize Jesus, sure'n ye did. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:01 AM Yeah, I think if we are capitalizing FL, it would probably make sense to capitalize Jesus too. After all, it's a name. But getting back to the issue of remediating racism, I don't think we can just sit around and wait for FL to happily show up. I mean, look how long the Jews have been waiting for whatever, or whoever it is for whom they wait. We need to plot a course of action with only the meager tools we have, in order to make the world a better place for everybody. I thought Howard Zinn's idea was a good one. Another one was put forth by a political figure, but I don't recall which one now, and that was to require every person graduating from high school to commit to two years of public service. That could be the military, the peace corps, the conservation corps, and a number of other organizations that maybe haven't been put together yet. That would creat a situation like the military has now, where inner city youths are thrown together in a barracks with kids from Montana, Mississippi, and Guam. Bobert has a really good point, though, as long as buffoons have their hands on the levers of power, all the good ideas in the world won't do you any good. There are good people out there, though, and some of them are in positions of influence. And Sam Brownback dropped out of the Republican primary yesterday. That has to be a good thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM Well, at least three good things have come outta this situation: 1. We are *now* having a long overdue discussion... 2. Jena has served as a perfectly good example of what not to do for other communities... and 3. Congress has actually conducted hearings on how things were handled... But beyond that, I am somewhat encouraged that Congress may revisit the way the "hate crimes" laws are written which is a good start and perhaps will be a step toward changing our culture... Yeah, I realize that most overt racists will die as overt racists but maybe knowing that they can go to jail for acting out their overt racism will at the very least send a message to their kids that this stuff just ain't right... We, at the very least, have a start and contrary to the popular opinion, we are a "liberal" society when it comes down tro individual issues... Of course, no one wants to be called a liberal... (LOL...) even if they are... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:13 PM Who said anything about Waiting, Rig? WHY do we have to wait? Isn't it OUR responsibility as much as anyone elses? I don't consistently capitalize FL..and aside from that, I don't figure it's anybody's business what I choose to capitalize any more than it's my business what anyone chooses to misspell. However, since I'm sure you'll all be curious, I'll let you know if I end up going to hell for it. It will certainly be a pleasant surprise if Zinn or a politician creates a noteworthy change for the better. I do not think it can be done from the "top"..they can make laws, but laws do NOT change mindsets. M |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:03 PM Well, if you follow the dialogue--at least the way I understand it--we have set forth a few suggestions that a number of people can agree on in terms of making things better. But the political realities are not letting good ideas come to the surface. The reason--if I'm understanding Bobert correctly--is because the people with power like things the way they are, because everything works pretty well for them now. We understand that in order to change things, new ideas have to be presented to a great number of people. These people might be very hard to convince because of their various addictions, and if you threaten to take their drug away from them in order to get them to listen, you're probably going to find a very hostile audience. So that takes us back to square-one. You have a number of folks who don't really want to devote a great deal of energy to solving problems that they don't think will benefit them directly. I think one would have to expose religion for what it really is, and convince the users, before you could get to the next step. Re: Waiting. No, I think it would be a mistake to wait. Things are going to get any better until somebody does something. But I don't see FL just dropping out of the clouds at the very moment he's needed, so we need to go ahead without him. Re: Capitalization. I was just responding to somebody else's comment, who seem put out by the situation. Responding so as not to cut anyone out of the conversation |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 20 Oct 07 - 05:08 PM Any reason YOU can't be the fl? Or Bobert..or me, or anyone else? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 20 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM Well, I'd love to be the "fl" but, ahhhhhh, I've3 got too much on my plate right now... (LOL)... But seriously, the civil rights movement gained traction during and after WW II... Dr. King didn't rise to be it's leader until the early 60's... Sometimes things change because it time for them to change... I believe that our country has been in a 3 decade funk and is just now having to take yet another look at itself... For this, I thank George Bush and his policies... They have been so horrid that only an insane person would want to continue down Bush Lane thinking that things would get better... Bush Lane is a dead end... As is Jena Lane... Another dead end... Most Americans may have been dumbed down over the past 3 decades but even with the dumbin' down I believe that most Americans are ready for some different story lines... Dr. King was the master story line man... We don't have him but what we do have is something that is as powerfull and that is the medium that we here in Mudville have come to almost take for granted and that is the internet... Yeah, if I had to go out on a limb I'd have to say that the internet is the new "fl/FL" and that it alone can carry the ball quite nicely between fl/FL's.... Now back to laws... I do believe that Tolstoy was correct in his observation that goverment is nothing more than the cabose and last in but being last in ain't bad sometimes... What it means is that it ain't rammin' stuff down people throats before they are ready... I believe that Americans are ready for "hate crimes" to be revisted and modified so that kids don't think it's okay to hang nooses... I believfe that we have come this far... Okay, granted I live in a rural Virgina community where the folks aren't ready... Heck, most of them hate anything that has to do with laws or the government... But I don't think that Page County, Va. is representative of America on the whole... I could be wrong on what I am sensing but I don't think so... I believe that Jena happened for a purpose... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM I do what I can, but I can't be the fL. I agree with Bobert that Bush has been so awful that people have been able to see where that line of thinking will take us, and folks are turning away from it. I have a different take on "hate crimes." I don't think you should criminally prosecute somebody for what they are thinking. I do think the principal was right in suspending the students. But it gets confusing after that. The kid who was beaten wasn't involved in the nooses, so the connection with the nooses to Mychal Bell was really conveyed by the adult community. They should have known better, and that's the scary part. I also agree with Bobert that much has been lost over the course of the last three decades. It looks to me like this insanity started with Reagan, and hopefully it will end with Bush II. As far as what to do about it, I think the next step involves a more sober look than Dr. King gave us. I don't disagree with anything he said, but he was a man of goD, and while that brought him an audience in the 1960's, I think we need to find a larger venue now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:36 PM It is inescapable that Martin Luther King was a religious figure. From his name to the cadence of his delivery of his secular speeches, he was steeped in Christianity. To usurp the anti-abortion bumper sticker's rhetoric: 'You can't be Christian and racist.' Nor can you be Christian and homophobic. My own rather radical inclusiveness was founded, ironically, in Catholicism. A Catholicism which has since retreated from same, but that's as may be. Like a wave depositing driftwood on the floor, the magisterium has retreated, but it's left me here. The problem is that the charlatans will use religion to confirm their own phobias, be it homophobia, xenophobia, or (in most cases truth to tell) autophobia. But it's VERY telling, isn't it, that in the Baptist religion, dominant in the American South, the very cradle of Jim Crow, the churches remain with very few exceptions, segregated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 21 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM Civil War, WWII and now have something in common...all three included a president going out of office to leave someone else to deal with civil unrest. I don't know much about WWI--does it fit the pattern? I think if we (or someone better prepared) don't figure out how to short circuit the process, we may very well be headed toward a terrible situation. A Revolution would be fine with me..to a point..but a Revolution would also be another CivWar and I really don't think we'd be in better shape when the handful of Power/Money folks get the rest of the Money/Power. In a battle between rich and poor, who would come out ahead? I'd like to see the 'hate crime' label changed to "antagonism" It's a clearer definition. Psychologically, hatred is probably a close cousin to anger..which is presumably a natural feeling. Being mad (whether reasonably or not) is different from picking fights..isn't it? Internet sounds like a good fl to me. It crosses the spectrum better than any religious group can and keeps all of us from having to travel around eating casseroles at hundreds of community gatherings where the audience would be people who were already sold on the idea of Getting Along. Teens would be a good market for fl.com to influence--their mindset is more flexible by nature than adults and they're ready to get out there and change the world. Bobert, I think nearly every community strongly distrusts anything having to do with gov't and/or laws. I wonder how long it will be before we get sense enough to try voting in a commoner as president. I'm willing to bet that it won't happen because a normal/average person wouldn't get nominated and backed. Do you think fl.com would be allowed to flourish if it started making a noticeable difference? We're easier to Control as long as we stay divided. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:35 AM "We're easier to Control as long as we stay divided." And easier to divide as long as we stay religious. Look how Britain dominated India for all that time. "Civil War, WWII and now have something in common...all three included a president going out of office to leave someone else to deal with civil unrest. I don't know much about WWI--does it fit the pattern..." I'm not sure what can be made of this. Lincoln and FDR both died in office, and Bush and Wilson were both brain dead when they left office. Of course Bush was always brain dead so the analogy doesn't seem to fit. Lincoln was survived by Andrew Johnson, the first presidnet ever impeached (though he survived it); FDR was survived by Harry Truman, who started the Korean War, and Wilson was survived by Warren G. Harding, probably Americas crookedest president until Reagan came along. Maybe if Bush were subjected to electro-shock theorapy, something could be revived before he left office, but if history tells us anything, the next president will be a disaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:02 AM I just don't have much faith in our government..seems to me that candidates should be screened for mental stability and intelligence. There used to be a hydro-therapy treatment that involved being tangled in a sheet or something and a vat of icy water. It looked like a miserable treatment. That's what I vote for. Water might not set up as much screeching by people who like to shout about inhumane practices. I also don't have much faith in the religion rigamarole, but people do have an inherent need to Believe in something. Some folks who go to church really DO believe and making them give up their faith or sneak around to worship would be cruel. I don't think it's the book and code of conduct stuff that's the problem there..it's the leaders and Power. A reformation would have to come from inside and probably the only thing it would do is make more martyrs. There's really nothing wrong with the 'golden rule'. When it got bloody enough, it would sure be a Media Spectacle. If that happens, I hope I have sense enough to miss the entire story. Churches in my town aren't offensive and they're slowly winding down on their own. Here, it's mostly a harmless social activity. Our population is about 450, we have 4 churches..probably about 50 regular church goers total. If churches were taken away, there would be a lot of nice folks who would sink in despair and wither away. The freaky powerstrivers would create huge idiotic displays and revel in their new Celebrity Status. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Bobert Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:50 AM Well, folks, please, please carry this discussion on... I'm off to Boone, N.C. for a few days because there is absolutely nothin' to do there and that's what my body and mind needs... Okay, I can catch up on my "Nation" readin'as I haven't so much as opened the last three issues... But this being Sunday, I will interject that as a Christain (not that that makes me any better than anyone else or makes my opinions more correct), I do see a ***part*** to be played out in the churchs, jsut as in the 60's... But, mind you, that is a "part" and not the entire ball of wax... Now, I'm goin' to go pack the car and the P-Vine an' I are gettin' away from the farm and these drotted construction projects that enslave me... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:03 PM "I also don't have much faith in the religion rigamarole, but people do have an inherent need to Believe in something. Some folks who go to church really DO believe and making them give up their faith or sneak around to worship would be cruel." Yeah, I agree. Prohibition didn't work, neither did the war on drugs. The one problem in all of it that I see as the most freightening, is something Bobert alluded to earlier. If the people who go to church reproduce at a rate higher than the general population, and assuming that they will have to reach the age of somewhere around 50 before that are mature enough to actually figure out what's really going on. We'll have a huge population of people who might never figure it out until the whole thing's over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Melissa Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:27 PM Do church-goers reproduce at a higher rate? I don't even have any idea what percentage of Americans consider themselves church-goers..do you? I think if we continue playing along with the crap about trusting the "news", watching tv, video gaming..Isolation vs Individuality, our entire society/country suffers because one of the first things to be bred out will be Common Sense. We already tend toward repeating what we've been told instead of exercising a couple more brain cells to Think about whether the stuff we're willing to fall for makes sense. We kind of already have a huge population who might never figure stuff out. Thinkers are a dying breed and if something doesn't get changed within a few years, the next couple generations might be able to see the remaining representatives in a zoo. Well caged in a soundproof 'natural habitat' |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM "I don't even have any idea what percentage of Americans consider themselves church-goers..do you?" No, but reports have indicated that something in excess of 65% to 75% consider themselve Christian. Of course, that comes by watching the news again. A large number of what I consider to be the most intelligent women I know didn't have any childred, largely because it was commonly held at the time that something needed to be done to curb the world's population growth. Of course nobody told the women in third world nations, so... At the end of the day, immigrants from developing countries seem to be more deeply steeped in religion than native born Americans, probably because they haven't been privy to media outlets and literature that allow them to see the hypocrisy. The real problem develops, I suppose, if it takes them a generation or two to catch up. Couple that with your observation that thinkers in the native born population seem to have become a "dying breed," and we're really in trouble. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Greg B Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:53 PM The interesting thing is that clergymen, and self-styled clergymen, seem to be able to obtain a pulpit far in excess of the size of their congregations. This seems to be simply by virtue of their being or calling themselves clergy. And it also seems to be rather independent of their having any actual merits as political or social thinkers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:32 PM Maybe that's because some people are drawn to them, while others are repulsed by them. Either way they manage to garner a lot of attention. Al Sharpton is a great example. Without the title of reverand, he would have any credentials at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: M.Ted Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:21 PM Al Sharpton is an excellent singer. You can't take that away from him. And it's more than I can say for some others around here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: Riginslinger Date: 22 Oct 07 - 04:20 PM I've never heard Al Sharpton sing. All I've ever heard him do is squawk. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Jena 6 Controversy From: GUEST,SINS Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM Anyone have aq final update on how this has ended? |
