BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO

Subject: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:43 PM

GOP presidential candidate Rudy Giuliani said that if he were elected he would want Israel to become part of NATO. This would send a message to the war mongers in Iran that any attack upon Israel would bring massive retaliation by the U.S. and its allies and would act as a deterrent. How does everyone here feel about that idea?

                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:47 PM

First off, Giuliani isn't gonna become President. Second, the friggin' US is not NATO, it's just a part of NATO despite what many Americans think. Third, Iran doesn't give a rat's ass about NATO much as Afghanistan doesn't. The war in Afghanistan is a NATO operation and they are still fighting. Fourth, please stop thinking that world organizations are simply extensions of American Foreign Policy. My country is in NATO too, and we don't perceive the organizatiuon in that manner. That's my rant before the Jew bashers show up--as they always do when Israel is mentioned.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:51 PM

Moronic. Iran already knows that the US will retaliate, in one way or another, if they attack Israel. Which Iran wouldn't do, anyways, unless provoked. So this would accomplish nothing more than tainting NATO with Israel's divisive, racist stink, and encourage Russia to back Iran more strongly. Giuliani's just fishing for Jewish voters in '08. Caught one, eh?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:52 PM

Yes indeed. Israel has responded in kind. No doubt about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 05:57 PM

I am not for Giuliani. I have already endorsed Hillary Clinton. I just wanted to know what the folks on Mudcat thought about his statement.
                                              SOL

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 06:44 PM

North Atlantic Treaty Organization? It's a long way from the North Atlantic to Israel...of course, so is Afghanistan and Kosovo. I think Rudi is playing to a prospective voter group, who shall remain nameless, that is more commonly known for supporting Democratic candidates.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:11 PM

Giuliani is indeed fishing for votes, and in a very obvious fashion.

Any direct attack upon Israel by the armed forces of Iran would ALREADY bring immediate massive retaliation by the U.S. and its allies...regardless. It's exactly what they would like Iran to do...something suicidally opportune and foolish like that for the USA to take advantage of. Talk about a free gift to the Bush administration! ;-) I bet they wish they could hypnotize the Iranian leadership into lobbing some of its missiles at Israel.

But, hey, why not have Israel join NATO? Hell, the USA regards NATO as its personal servant to do its bidding, so why shouldn't Israel have that privilege too? It would just be making official something which is already in effect in any case.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:35 PM

It makes a LOT of sense, being as Israel is nestled right up against the North Atlantic.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:39 PM

Maybe Iran could be invited to join as well.

Of course there woudl have to be conditions in both cases. Such as ceasing to refuse to comply with United Nations Resolutions.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: bobad
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:50 PM

"That's my rant before the Jew bashers show up--as they always do when Israel is mentioned."

Caught one, eh!

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM

I think it would be more apropos to have them both (Israel and Iran) join NATO and both continue to refuse to comply with various U.N. resolutions which they don't like. The U.N. has to be taught to be more obedient to Washington, after all. Who do they think they are representing anyway when they pass such resolutions? Do they think that having a big facility provided to them in New York City comes for free?

Guiliani oughta kick the danged U.N. out of his city, because they did not endorse Bush's 2003 invasion of Iraq. Don't forget that. They can't be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 07 - 08:15 PM

You sure you want to go in that direction with me, "bobado"?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 03:22 AM

"Iran already knows that the US will retaliate, in one way or another, if they attack Israel. Which Iran wouldn't do, anyways, unless provoked." - Lepus Rex

Very true.

"Any direct attack upon Israel by the armed forces of Iran would ALREADY bring immediate massive retaliation by the U.S. and its allies...regardless." - Little Hawk

Also very true.

But Little Hawks statement touches on what would be the real threat, which is "the armed forces of Iran" would never attack Israel, because they don't have to, both Israel and Lebanon are already being attacked by proxy through Quds Force support of international terrorist organisations. The Quds Force, a highly successful business venture that generates enormous profits that has it's own well equipped military that in no way, shape, or form is answerable to the Government of Iran.

Now this what I want to hear somebody say, "This could never happen", with total conviction.

Anyone remember the threat evaluation that was conducted in the aftermath of 911? What was the threat to the United States of America that was considered to be the greatest and most urgent.

An anonymous attack on the United States of America involving the use of some form of WMD by a terrorist organisation backed by a rogue government.

The "Axis of Evil", that was being referred to, not the one the media told you about. Weapon-Shooter-Banker, that was the Axis, not Iraq-Iran-North Korea.

Sure, bring Israel into NATO, anything that reafirms the stand taken by the United Nations in 1948 in recognising Israel's sovereignty and gives pause for thought to those who wish to "wipe Israel off the map", can only be to the general benefit of the region as a whole. That wouldn't do anything to counter the threat outlined above, after all in the event of that happening Iran, say, could quite honestly hold up it's hands and say, "Nothing to do with us, if you think it has, then prove it." - Nobody could. In exactly the same way that everybody knows that Syria was involved very heavily in the Hariri assassination, but nobody can prove it, so his murderers go unpunished and operate with impunity to strike again, which I believe they have just recently done.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 04:24 AM

The "North Atlantic" argument is extremely weak if one looks at a map of the NATO. There are already longtime NATO members bordering only the Mediterranean, and new ones at the Black sea or the Baltic.

Here is the official statement of the NATO which countries can become members:
NATO has an open door policy on enlargement. Any European country in a position to further the principles of the North Atlantic Treaty and contribute to security in the Euro-Atlantic area can become a member of the Alliance

Europe is the problematic part for such a move, though there is already one country memeber of the NATO which is situated with most of its land in Asia. Israel, however, is situated only in Asia.

There are, however, several international organisations in which Israel is treated as a European country.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:45 AM

As a conscript I was ready for years to defend my country and it's allies. But never war mongers in Asia, wherever they might come from.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 07:52 AM

Wilfried, both your own country and France are very selective when it comes to interpretation of the NATO alliance, cherry-picking as to what they will do and what they won't. So please forgive me if I express some scepticism regarding your ascertion about defending your country and it's allies, while I believe that you personally are quite sincere about that, as far as your Government is concerned I would never under any circumstance rely on them and would trust them only as far as I could throw an Admiralty Cast Anchor.

With regard to Israel - "the warmongers in Asia"? - Well it certainly would not have been the first time your countrymen stood by and did nothing while the Jews were threatened with extermination - True?

In 1948 the Sovereignty of Israel was recognised by the United Nations, ever since that date that nation has been living under seige, threatened on all sides. Time and time again they have been openly threatened with annihilation and faced naked acts of aggression focused on one aim only, the destruction of Israel and her people. Each time they have survived to sign UN brokered ceasefires the terms and conditions of which their aggressors have unceasingly and constantly ignored. Yes by all means let Israel join NATO, then inform Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon and their paymasters in Tehran and the ancient city of Quom. The next rocket that is fired will result in retaliation against all parties responsible not only from Israel but from the entire alliance.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:11 AM

There are, however, several international organisations in which Israel is treated as a European country.


Including the Eurovision Song Contest...

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:45 PM

It's an obvious ploy on Giuliani's part to consolidate the
cache he has with Jewish voters as former New York mayor.

It's also not realistic, at least not until the Palestinian
issue is resolved.

Israel would be a divisive wedge between NATO countries, some
of whom are sharply critical of some of the actions Israel has
taken at times, and who would thus refuse their NATO obligations
to that country.

It's made worse by the continually shifting foreign policy and
defense strategies of Israel itself. That wind has blown in different
directions, and hasn't settled down yet. And, again, is unlikely
to do so until the Palestinian question comes to a equitable and
lasting resolution.

Israel, for its part, would probably chafe at some of the constraints
and the additional weight of comment that its NATO partners might
have as regarding some of its military policies and choices.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 12:54 PM

Go Rudy!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

Yes, go Rudy. Far far away.

And take Alan Placa with you (Google it).

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:12 PM

Giuliani has NO chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 01:49 PM

Iran is not alone in attacking others by proxy through unofficial or clandestine means, Teribus. The USA also does that, and has done it a great deal over the past few decades.

So it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black to point out that Iran does that. Yeah, they can and they do. They engage in proxy warfare. Of course. They're in good company when it comes to that. The USA absolutely loves engaging in proxy warfare whenever and wherever it sees fit, and the USA once used Iraq as a proxy to try to destroy Iran's system completely...but failed. Do you think the Iranians don't remember that? Do you think they don't feel justified in doing similar things in return?

It's because you think that Iranian activities are by definition wholly "evil" and that the USA's activities on the other hand are "good" that we have a difference of opinion about the matter. ;-)

I think that Iran and the USA are BOTH engaging in evil activities...for very similar reasons...they both want to hurt their "enemies". They both want to win. They are both armoured by their own utter chauvinism and moral blindness. They live in a similar state of paranoid delusion, but on opposite sides of the fence, that's all.

They both imagine themselves to be the defender of truth, justice, and all that is noble, I'm sure....not to mention defenders of the One True Faith. I have little sympathy with either of them, as governments, but I sympathize with their common citizenry who might happen to get caught in the crossfire.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 05:55 PM

Actually that was a serious suggestion of mine, if perhaps not one that is likely to come about - "there would have to be conditions in both cases. Such as ceasing to refuse to comply with United Nations Resolutions."

Israel complying with UN resolutions calling for an end to occupations and settlements, and for a right of refugees to return to their homes. Iran complying with resolutions aimed at ensuring that it does not develop nuclear weapons.

And in return both states are invited to join NATO.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 06:12 PM

Sounds like a lovely idea to me, specially because it suggests that both Israelis and Iranians are human beings, equally human, and thus due the same rights and responsibilities as members of the global community.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 21 Sep 07 - 08:36 PM

"Don't know much about history
Don't know much biology
Don't know much about a science book
Don't know much about the French I took
But I do know that I love you
And I know that if you love me too
What a wonderful world this would be"

........... Sam Cooke

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM

Israel complying with UN resolutions calling for an end to occupations and settlements

Sorry, but that as a unilateral demand is complete nonsense. It only makes sense together with what the very same UNSC resolution(s) demand, namely the recognition of Israel and its borders and the state as such by all Arab countries and populations that have been involved in the many wars (of independence and later ones) with Israel.

That is the difficult part which has been rejected so often (by Arab governments, for instance, in 1967/68), which is forgetten so easily by those who remember the first part of the resolution without any difficulties, and which is not even acceptable among all Mudcatters if one remembers past discussions. Who only mentions this part of the relevant resolution is either dangerously one-sided and arguably full of ill intentions or blessed with selective amnesia.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

Yes, it works both ways, Wolfgang...just as you say. Selective amnesia is common in any political debate. People normally only look for evil on the side they happen to be opposed to... ;-)

Just listen to almost any politician, and you'll see the same failing occuring in their rhetoric.

If a politician genuinely tries to be fair, and to give equal consideration to both sides in an issue, he is usually accused of being "weak" and ends up being despised.

Anyone noticed that?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 05:07 PM

Which "axis of evil" does Israel belong to?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:05 PM

I can't see how, for example, resolutions calling for refugees to be allowed to return home can be called "unilateral", with an implication that they should be dependent on anything else being done by other countries.

And the same is even more clearly the case when it comes to in effect annexing occupied territories by building massive settlements all over the place.

Clearly it would be desirable for all the other resolutions to be complied with by all other parties, but the idea that nothing can be done until everything can be done is a recipe for nothing being done.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Greg B
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:28 PM

I find it ironic that the same European and North American
countries that are today all in a dither about too many
immigrants diluting or wiping out their cultural identity
are insisting that a bunch of European emigrants who descended
upon Palestine be declared the de facto owners of that
country, marginalizing those for whom it was their native
land for centuries...

Then again, guilt does wonders for getting things through the
UN, and the Zionists were after all nice, white, Europeans and
the Palestinians were swarthy Muslims, whom everyone knows are
worse than Jews... (who remembers that the term 'anti Semitic'
applies to Arabs as well as Jews?)

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:34 PM

Just as the Israelis were marginalized by the Muslims who lived there, ad infinitum.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

Yeah, Greg...guilt is a very powerful motivator. What if the same thing had been done in a different place? Argentina....Mozambique....Malaya....Australia...Ireland...North Carolina....?

How would the local people have reacted to an influx of Europeans and the establishment, by violent conflict, of a new ethnically-centred state on their land? And would it still be a problem today?

You bet it would.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 22 Sep 07 - 11:57 PM

UN or NATO are powerless without the US Military or money. Sudan has be screwed up for awhile what have they done to stop the killing, nothing really. We have problems here in the US, but at least we back up strong talk with Action. I will be the first to say Iraq is f**ked up, so dont go there. Its just we dont need to spend money on the UN or NATO, it was only created for the Cold War against USSR.....Oh yeah anybody that calls himself a hero and talks about 911 all the time is a PRICK in my book. I saw him live and thats all he talked about. The real heros died on 911 saving people FDNY/NYPD.....Israel cant be in NATO because europe hates Israel and would never go for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:09 AM

"UN or NATO are powerless without the US Military or money."

Yeah, Afghanistan proves that.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: GUEST,TOM
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 12:43 AM

Afghanistan, has been going down hill since NATO took over...Any other success story...

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:37 AM

"at least we back up strong talk with Action"

That's what all tyrants do, isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:48 AM

So do wife beaters.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: GUEST,TOM
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 08:27 AM

I guess I had a good point, if your only comebacks are wife beater & tyrants.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 01:53 PM

"Afghanistan, has been going down hill since NATO took over"

Utter crap Guest TOM.

Little Hawk, not interested in what the US has, or has not done, we were speaking specifically about Iran, and why THEY would not attack Israel. All I pointed out was the fact that they are already attacking Israel by proxy. Oh I notice that you still are rather reticent at mentioning the decades of dirty tricks perpetrated by the Soviet Union, China, North Korea, strange in one who prides himself so much on giving "balanced" accounts and perspective.

"Israel complying with UN resolutions calling for an end to occupations and settlements, and for a right of refugees to return to their homes." - MGOH

Yes I'd go along with that Kevin:

The "Palestinians" get out of Gaza and return it to Israel, it was after all taken by arnmed force from what was the Jewish sector of the Palestinian Manadated Territory in 1948. Israel gave it up unilaterally to the Palestinians on the understanding that rocket attacks on Jewish settlements from Gaza would end. They haven't so the "Palestinians" are in breach of their agreement. Nothing new there is there Kevin, they have never actually honoured any agreement with Israel, more often than not made at the Arabs behest having been comprehensively defeated by Israeli armed forces.

The Palestinians can clear out of the West Bank in it's entirety as that too was Jewish territory captured by Jordanian troops in 1948.

By all means grant rights of return or full compensation, but that would also apply to the 500,000+ Jews who were forced to flee their homes in neighbouring Arab countries and whose property, possessions and wealth were all confiscated.

But do you know what Kevin? I don't think for one bloody minute that any of those aspects of the case ever entered your mind when you typed your post, it's all about Israel's compliance, the front line Arab States and the numerous terrorist organisations that have completely destabilised the region can carry on doing just exactly as they like.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:41 PM

I am fully agreed with you regarding the proxy attacks on people by the Russians, the Chinese, and the North Koreans, Teribus. I have again only failed to include in my statement EVERY possible contingency and ramification that you could conceivably raise as an objection...., because I simply don't have time to. ;-)

Believe me, you will always find one more thing to nitpick about, Teribus, your ego demands it, but it doesn't change my basic point, which was that the USA and Iran are equally guilty of waging war by proxy. Therefore neither of them impresses me one bit by waxing all righteous and indignant about the other one doing it, because they are simply grandstanding, bullshitting, and engaging in puffery and self-justifying propaganda when they do so.

That is a balanced viewpoint, mate.

The people you support are as spurious as the people you oppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 02:58 PM

dircon.co.uk

Is that a British e-mail address/company?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 04:01 PM

The right of refugees to return to their homes, should they wish to do so, should apply to Jewish refugees also of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 04:47 PM

It should apply to all refugees....and it would if people were willing to live in peace, wouldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 05:38 PM

Nice of you to say so Kevin, please mention it next time you are yammering on about what should and should not be done. LH, but why is it you always find the time to denegrate the US? Far from being impartial, objective or determined to give a balanced view of things, you are a bigot with some form of phobia regarding the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:39 PM

So what's your first name, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 07 - 07:39 PM

Oh? Well, I've lived among bigots who had a phobia regarding socialism, communism, and Islam, among other things, Teribus...and an awful lot of them were in the USA. Maybe I'm reacting to someone else's bigotry...

I always find time to denigrate the USA, Teribus, because it is the most arrogant, aggressive, and overburdening major power on the face of the Earth at this juncture in history...because I lived there for 10 years and saw the grand illusions of America firsthand...and I have not forgotten it.

If it were 1935, I'd be finding time to denigrate the Nazis instead...for similar excesses of hubris and delusions of grandeur.

It it were 1888, I'd be finding time to denigrate the self-satisfied pomp and smugness of the British Empire instead, again for similar reasons.

If it were 3 BC, I'd be finding time to denigrate the Romans for the same.

Got it? The USA just happens to be the most grandiose, bellicose, and irresponsible major power on the face of the Earth at this juncture in history. I'm sure that will change in time.

But you and I may be gone before it does. Yes, probably....

Anyway, I promise you that when I reincarnate in some future era when the USA is no longer the biggest bully in the World that I will reserve special criticism for China instead...or whoever else it is who happens to step up to the plate at that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 12:56 AM

As a supposed student of History Little Hawk, I am always surprised at the continual mention the Romans and their big bad empire. Had you been around in 3 BC you may well have found time to denigrate the Roman Empire, which more likely than not would number you among those not subject to it. The Roman Empire fell to those outwith it, not by the subject peoples of it,who, Little Hawk, found that the benefits of living in it greatly outweighed the disadvantages.

Let's see in 1888 the same thing would apply, and would carry over to your next selected date in History where if British you would find every "reasonable" excuse on Gods earth to appease Hitler and his regime while loudly decrying Churchill as a "warmonger".

"The USA just happens to be the most grandiose, bellicose, and irresponsible major power on the face of the Earth at this juncture in history." - Little Hawk

Far from it Little Hawk, far from it. They have identified a problem threatening world peace and are addressing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 07:27 AM

"addressing it" and "issues" - silly and overused!

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Stu
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 08:41 AM

" They have identified a problem threatening world peace and are addressing it."

They have identified a problem threatening their own interests and are addressing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Sep 07 - 09:16 AM

Thank you for that correction stigweard.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 07:28 AM

Giuliani thinks if he puts Israel's interests ahead of America's if will get him the Jewish vote. It worked for Joe Lieberman.

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:37 AM

It won't work for Lieberman again. I'll bet this is the last term he'll ever hold as an elected official unless he's going to go for town sheriff in Dogpatch. He's a disgrace

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 11:56 AM

from UNSCR 242:

Affirms that the fulfillment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:

    * Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
    * Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgement of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;

The same resolution asks for (1) withdrawal from occupied territories and (2) recognition of the territorial integrity of all states. That is more than an implication that they should be dependent on anything else being done by other countries.

Just BTW, Ahmadinejad has made clear once more in his Columbia talk that he does not agree with the second part of what I have quoted. As usual his language was meant to feed his supporters and to fool others.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Giuliani: Israel Should Join NATO
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Sep 07 - 12:33 PM

Those two conditions sound like exactly the right 2 conditions to me, Wolfgang. Very sensible.

I think what we have in the case of the Middle East is two intransigent sets of opponents, both too proud and too paranoid and too selfish to bend, both of whom are essentially saying something like..."Well, we would be willing to do that IF the other guys weren't bad people who can never be trusted...and IF they would do their half of it FIRST...(ha! ha!)...in other words, we are not willing to do our half, so forget it. It's not going to happen."

It's kind of like getting two people on this forum who argue perpetually about politics to both agree to respect and be reasonable to the other person and NOT try to get the LAST word in on the subject. In other words, forget it. It's not going to happen. ;-)

The trouble, you see, is that most people do not want a reasonable accomodation with an opponent...they want a decisive and final victory over him (or her)!

I don't think the Israelis or their various Muslim enemies are going to find a decisive and final victory...nor are the arguers on this forum, as far as that goes.