Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?

Subject: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 10:43 AM

I am essentially a song performer, thouch I do play the odd tune; and I never dance - not when people are looking anyway. It occured to me that when I perform the songs, I am basically trying to manipulate the listener into my world, to help him/her release feelings, by sharing the song. That is my motivation. When I am singing, I am in sharing-mode.

But what is the motivation for playing tunes? To get others to dance? To affect their feelings? What else?

And I ask the same question of the dancers: Why do you dance? Is there a feeling of showing to others what can be done? Is it the feeling of participating in an activity that has been going on for generations and centuries? Do you dance for yourself, or for the viewer? How important is the "uniform" (dress code for the type of dance) in your enjoyment of the dance?

The character of Zorba the Greek, for example, was definitely dancing for himself, though a little also to try and express feelings through improvisationm, i.e. to communicate. Dress did not matter - he could have danced the same in his pyjamas.

So - what drives you to dance or play or sing? What is your main motivation? Does it vary by culture (I suspect the answer is yes)?

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:15 AM

I can't talk for other sorts of players, but I'm pretty sure that the main motivation in Irish session music is sharing. If it's not, the session doesn't work. But sharing withe whom is the question. I think the answer is with those qualified to understand. They will include other musicians (sometimes not all...) and those of the boozing crowd who know what they are listening to (usually about 15% in a really good session).

I suspect this is more widespread than you think. For example, Zorba or Nureyev may have been great dancers, but it's totally lost on me. I can tell it's athletic, skilful and only a few people can do it, but beyond that I couldn't tell you if it's good dancing or bad dancing, and what is being communicated passes me by. I expect other people feel the same about session players.

Songs are a bit different- most people consider themselves qualified to understand them if they are in their own language. But even here, I think you fool yourself if you think others necessarily receive what you transmit.

With all music genres, a lot of the appreciation seems to come from the sense of a shared experience- your appreciation of the music identifies you with the environment (social, cultural, historical) in which that music thrives. Whether opera or ballet goers, blues fans, morris dancers or nightclub denizens, the music identifies a perceived lifestyle (whose details may not be the same for all participants note) with which you wish to be associated.

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Sean Belt
Date: 26 Sep 07 - 11:41 AM

I'm coming at this from an American Old-Time music view point, so I can only speak to my personal motivations/thoughts and they're pretty much colored by that perspective.

Old-time is not really a performance oriented music (though I and many of my fellows do perform), but more of a community oriented thing. So for me, it's all about sharing. Sharing the musical conversation with those with whom I'm playing in a session; sharing the energy with the dancers I'm playing for; and, to a lesser extent, sharing the tunes with whatever listening audience there may be.

Of course, fun is a tremendously motivating factor, too. The physicality of muscles interacting with the fiddle, banjo, uke, or dulcimer is something I get great joy from and don't know that I could live without. As is the physical feeling of being surrounded by the vibrations of the music. I mentioned conversation earlier and that's part of the fun, too. When I'm playing with a few other folks and we're really cooking, the level of communication completely apart from the words we're speaking can be more fun and uplifting than any other form of communication I have yet experienced. When it's a more intimate and intense conversation between me and one other, knee to knee, eye to eye, spinning a tune together... It beats anything words could say.

And when the communication between the band and a couple of dozen dancers is going well -- the tempos are right, the dancers are hitting the same groove that we are -- it's at least as good as, and maybe better than good food, drink or even sex. Or at least it's good in a different way.

So, there you go. That's why I play tunes.

- Sean

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 10:49 AM

The way we grew up, as a family, it was always about sharing, mainly with each other, except in school. In school, it was performance based, but even then we were all sharing. I used to always dance, my own made-up stuff when I was a kid. I did it mostly to show my parents what I could do and to receive their praise, for to hear them say it, I was darn good.:-)

Singing, playing, dancing, always to share. It brings me life and makes me feel so good. OH, and I used to LOVE dancing to Zorba the Greek!

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: azfiddle
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:14 PM

I love what guest PMB said about sessions. I don't sing, and don't usually dance....

My motivation for playing tunes in sessions is about connecting with playing, sharing musically, and also about listening to how other people communicate through their playing. It's also about finding my own voice musically (through playing an instrument) and seeing how my sense of the music overlays or interweaves with other peoples'.

There is an indescribable sense of connection with discovering special tunes I share in common with one or a few other people and then playing them together. You're inside the tune, it's inside you, and you're communicating with other people by listening to each other and creating this very ephemeral musical space where you are discovering that connection.

I love playing for dancers, and getting them to move with the music that has "co-evolved" (to borrow a term from science) with the dancing. If I dance, it is usually a contra dance or ceili dance, so I am participating in the other half of what dance music is all about. It's social dancing, not performance dancing. But it is also about connecting - there is nothing individual about it for me.

I do perform, and there it's about creating that connection to make something exist musically with a band, and then to share that same ephemeral creation with other people- who appreciate it on different levels depending on what their experience is with the style of music.

My friend sings- and she uses her singing in a performance to communicate feelings and emotions to other people.

It is rewarding to have other people appreciate what I do musically- but I think it is more about the sharing and connecting than anything else...
Just a few thoughts
Sharon

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

I am better at it than anything else [including punctuation and typing].

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Marje
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

What PMB and Sean have said, in relation to two different sorts of music, is very true for me too, in the (mostly English) sessions I go to. When it goes well, it can be quite magical to share the music with others - sometimes leading, sometimes following, sometimes just listening, and sometimes all piling in together to play a tune we love.

When you play in a session you get full surround-sound, being totally immersed in the music. With an instrument,you feel the music through your body as well as hearing it with your ears - this is one thing playing has in common with singing, where you body becomes the instrument.

Playing for dancing is different; the main point there is to provide the sort of music that the dancers want. When dance music is played at sessions, it's nice (I think) if the music keeps that connection and suggests the dance to the listeners, even if no one is dancing.

Comparing playing with singing: I think the main difference is that a singer is communicating in a much more direct and personal way with the listeners than most tune-players. I sing too, and I like people to listen when I sing, but I prefer them not to listen too actively when I'm playing - I'd really rather play in the background so that people can just let the music seep into their senses.

As for dancing, there's a big difference between the "display" dances (morris etc) and social dancing. Display dancing is done to entertain others, and the costume is part of the show. Social dancing is, to me, done mainly for one's own enjoyment - again, there' a sharing and bonding that takes place as a result of moving together to the rhythm, and the physical contact. To me, the dress code isn't very important here, although people generally feel more at ease if they think they're looking good while they dance.

Very interesting question, George, and I'm sure there's still much to be said.

Marje

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: M.Ted
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 03:11 PM

I started out as a 60's coffeehouse type folksinger/songwriter, for audiences that listened earnestly and intently and ended up in the 70's as "live" entertainment in clubs with cute sandwiches and cheap wine, trying to deal with the fact that people weren't listening at all.

I started playing instrumental jazz and latin standards, mostly in duet/trio situations, because it allowed me to continue to develop musically while people talked, drank, ate, and otherwise ignored me.

After I gave up playing music for money, I started playing for Balkan and International folk dancers, which was great, because dance is really the ultimate response to music--and, at the same time, gave me the chance for even more musical development. Also, when you play for dancing, there is much more of a feeling of working "with" the participants, rather than working "for" them.

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:13 PM

I also enjoy social dance, and I think what makes it for me is
1. The interaction with other people in the set (friendly or flirting, or adapting to the limitations of other dancers)
2. The music and fitting the dance to it (it surprises me when people rush ahead of the music)
3. the interest of the figures (some flow well together, some are a challenge, some dances have a distinctive figure that means you remember them)
4. the movement (I'm not much good at fancy steps, which is why I'm not a clog dancer).

I can see an attraction in polishing a dance to performance level, but it's not what it's all about for me, so I won't get involved in that.

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Mo the caller
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 06:13 PM

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Sep 07 - 07:06 PM

When I sing solo, as in my sets usually, for me it is about living the song (easy, as they are mine) and allowing myself to feel, and project, the emotions it generates in me. I use those emotions to dress the story it tells, so that I become like an actor. I try to avoid "overacting" though, using voice and eyes/eyebrows mostly. Projection is important, and so is volume, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the storytelling or run counter to the emotions at the time. Like an actor, I am offering rather than sharing.

But when I sing harmony it is almost the total opposite. I sang in several choirs throughout my life, from when I was 12, but the last choir I was a member of (Athens Experimental Choir) marked my singing from then on in many ways, too complex to explain here. It had developed a very definite "ethos" for singing generally and choir-singing in particular. It involved listening to the other voices and blending, aiming at the effect of a single, unworldly, voice. If you couldn't hear the third person down the line from you, you were too loud. You alternated your breathing with the others in your section to give a continuous effect. You used your stomach mussles in a rolling motion to give "wave" effects (on video you could see each section undulating as a single body, as we produced the same "wave" simultaneously).

We got it right 1 time out of 50 at first, then 1 out of 10, and at the end 1 out of 4 or 5 was the best we could get. The "failures" were still very listenable, and audiences enjoyed them. But the "successes" were unearthly, they made your hackles rise and set your teeth on edge. You knew you were singing, but could not hear your own voice, nor distinguish anyone else's in your section. You were but a molecule in something bigger.

Our highest achievement in front of an audience was in the Kennedy Centre: We stationed 6 mini-quintets (one member from each section) around the auditorium to sing a particular medley, and despite the huge distance between the mini-choirs, the members of each section blended with each other across the auditorium. The effect for the audience was that the sound seemed to come from above, not from any particular direction in the horizontal.

That was sharing, all right, of the like I have rarely experienced since. But when I harmonise with someone, that is what I am aiming for. And now and then, the tingle comes...

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Grab
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 08:24 AM

dance is really the ultimate response to music

Thanks MTed - that's the best I've ever heard that said. You always know that a gig's going well when the audience are dancing, but I couldn't have expressed that feeling any better than you just did.

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 11:22 AM

The part I like the best is when you start to play and people jump up to dance--you know you've connected--

Subject: RE: Motivation for song-tune-dance:the same?
From: Mr Red
Date: 28 Sep 07 - 03:15 PM

dance - because I enjoy it and anyways badminton was giving me such a pain in my hip. Dance every Sat if I get a chance, becuse I enjoy it (and no pain next day). Mental stimulation and physical exercise. Need both as you get older so I intend to be fit when I am old - whaddayamean - old now? And there is a certain camerarderie in ceilidhing, it involves at least 6 others usually.

Sing - because I enjoy it, and there are people who like my singing. Is there another reason?   Well yes - I never sang till the wife left home - daren't stop now - don't want a return visit.

Play - because I enjoy it, and no-one has yet asked me to not play my bodhran - well not since I was a beginner anyway.

Personal enjoyment, sharing - yes - yes.