Has anyone ever started a folk big band

Subject: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Captain Farrell
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:28 PM

Hi! everyone Ever thought of joining a large folk group. What are the pitfalls.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Mooh
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 01:36 PM

Joined and stayed with one for several (um...15) years. It was a mixed blessing for sure. Too many people (8, not including guests), too little practice (schedules are hard to manage), too little enthusiasm from some for some material, too many opportunites for arrangements to get forgotten or miscommunicated, and no small amount of autocracy where it was inappropriate.

Smaller groups are easier to manage.

Curious, why do you ask?

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Ref
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 04:10 PM

Folk music just isn't appropriate for large groups, though I'll make an exception for choral groups that can do multiple harmonies. If you want an example, just listen to the albums by the Weavers with the orchestra back-up. The sound becomes too busy, even with as few as eight instruments.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 04:24 PM

Depends on your definition of "big" I suppose.

But in answer to the question at the top of the thread - yes - Bellowhead.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Commander Crabbe
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 05:05 PM

Was in an Irish Music band for three years, started as five musicians three guitars one mandolin and one fiddle. I put my guitar away for a bit and played five string banjo just to make a different sound. We finally ended up with about thirteen players 3 bodhrans, 2 melodeons, 3 fiddles, 1 tenor banjo, 1 five string banjo, 2 guitars, 1 flute, 1 whistle. 1 mandolin.

It was a nightmare getting everyone together for practice but we got along. Sometimes it was hard to hear yourself sing or the person next to you playing. But we made a lot of noise, enjoyed ourselves and those who listened seemed to enjoy it too.

Never again! I must have played "I'll Tell Me Ma" (and several other popular Irish tunes on request) at least three times a week for three years.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Alan Day
Date: 30 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

I play in GIGCB a band consisting of about fifteen musicians.I say about because with that number of musicians rarely all can make it,one band member living in Germany,one in Spain and another going backwards and forwards to Brittany and others doing many other things other than full time committment.It is great for most of the time,some gigs I would pay money to be in the group and of course I do, because we rarely get much for attending, split between all the members.One person needs to be in charge.Organisation is a major factor and as we are all busy then this can break down on occassions.
Remember that although you get on great just meeting for one nights playing a tour or a week long festival can be very stressful.
Starting a band requires agreement on the type of music you intend to play, agreement on the tunes and a flexible attitude to new tunes being introduced.
Al

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 12:58 AM

Seems to me some guy named Randy ? started the New Christy Minstrels in the states back in the 1960's. They were about 8 or 10 people and seemed to do OK - just saw a reunion tour of some of their members this spring. They were good, and the averge age was about 70 !

I also seem to remember another big group from back then called the
Serendepity Singers.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 04:47 AM

God preserve us from such things!!

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:05 AM

There's a group in NE Wales, Clerorfa, which is made up of the better Welsh session participants vaguely formalized. Clerorfa is a combination of the Welsh words for Minstrel and Orchestra. They've done a quite successful show in Caernarfon and a few gigs at things like the National Eisteddfod - including an outdoor 'sesh' which attracted a lot of very positive attention. There was some talk of the playing Lorient at some point in the future ...

I think the trick is that they're developing it within a 'session' paradigm rather than starting off as a full-blown band in an 'industrial' paradigm.

sian

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: redsnapper
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 05:07 AM

A number of Mudcatters/former Mudcatters were in 12 Little Devils.

RS

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:22 AM

Mr.Carthy started Steeleye Span , did he not ?

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:50 AM

No he didn't - only arrived for the 2nd album.
Big bands ? "Macalla", the all-women's band from Dublin in the 1980s - recorded 2 LPs.
Currently in Scotland, "The Unusual Suspects" - think there's over 20 of them.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Betsy
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 07:59 AM

I STAND CORRECTED !!!!

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:29 AM

There was the Red Army Ensemble - they were sort of folky.

All those Welsh Choirs that used to be on Stars on Sunday singing Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care.

the precedents don't really make you think - that was an idea before its time....!

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Grab
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 09:45 AM

A friend (talented whistle/recorder player) has just had a bit a falling-out with a larger group she joined. The group were only going to be playing at a local folk club, but she'd approached it as a performance, which means practising together, working out dynamics, arranging who does what when, etc.. In other words, being professional about it as a performance, and trying to do the absolute best you can for your audience. But they all apparently considered it to be just an opportunity to play session-style with a captive audience, so new people kept being added, there were no real group practises and they weren't keen on working through the dynamics of the tunes. Hence the falling-out when she tried to get them to shape up.

If all you want is a bit of session-style playing, then fine. But that's not a band in any sense of the word - it's hardly even a group, because "group" requires a cohesive identity. So you might want to check that everyone's plans of what you're setting out to do are the same.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 10:29 AM

One might wonder about the "big band" participation of the famous Gow family? From an unidentifiable source:

Family members of most interest among the Gows were

Niel Gow (1727 1807)—Fiddler, an inventor of the "Strathspey" style, and his:

son William (1751-1791)—Edinburgh Assembly Orchestra Leader

son Andrew (1760-1803)—Partner in music publishing.

son Nathaniel (1763-1831)—Fiddler, Edinburgh Orch Ldr after William, publisher.

grandson Niel Gow (1795-1823)—'talented composer & performer,' briefly part of publishing businesses.

son John (1764-1826)—London publisher & distributor of Nathaniels publications

brother Donald Gow (unknown dates)—cellist, performed with brother Niel

Did the Edinburgh Orchestra play Gow compositions that are now considered "traditional?"

John

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

'So you might want to check that everyone's plans of what you're setting out to do are the same.'

Grab, I couldn't agree more. There are so many attitudes toward folk music, that some understanding must be reached or hard feelings will result.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: fogie
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:12 AM

I'm a member of a big band started 10 yrs or so ago , and at present led by Sue Harris, who does the musical arrangements. There are about 20 or so of us, with various different instruments, Sue playing hammer dulcimer and oboe, there are 3 cellos 4-5 flutes 2-3 clarinets 3 Bb saxes, 3-4 fiddles 2 guitars, banjo concertina and percussion. Abilities range from professional to good amateur, and we tackle anything from Early one morning to French dances to simple jazz arrangements to a Souza march to Bottine Souriante tunes. We play for town carnivals and Ceidhles for parties. We've all come a long way since we were started as an offshoot of Hereford's community band Bandamonium, and Sue is always stretching us with new tunes or even complex suites -some self penned. We have made long lasting friends, and even session groups and bands as offshoots from this musical base. It works, and is one of the main pleasures of my life. You can see us all on stage in France at a twinning exchange if you Google (UK) bandamania and go down the page to Kevin's Photographs. (whoops! nearly gave my name away)

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:28 AM

We had a band, Late For Dinner, that varied in number, but at the peak had 7 or 8 members. All members were muti-instrumentalists, but they included guitar, banjo, bass, mandolin, long-necked mandolin, mountain dulcimer, Hammered dulcimer, button acordion, piano acordion, English concertina, whistle, flute, fiddle, tuba, harmonica, bodhran... We played everything from jug band, old time jazz tunes, blues, Irish, Canadian and American fiddle tunes contemporary roots type songs (Tom Waits, Townes Van Zandt, Jerry Jeff Walker...) and original tunes.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:42 AM

I remember when Randy Sparks started the big group called "The New Christy Minstrels," loosely based on an old minstrel show act from the late 19th century, I believe. Randy had been doing a single act as a sort of folk/pop balladeer, which he still occasionally does. I saw him as a "single" at a hometown hotel venue in 1959.

He says the hardest part about working with the bigger group is the control issue. Everyone has an ego, and everyone wants to believe his or her particular contribution is important. But, in order to avoid chaos, and to preserve a sort of group identity, someone has to call the shots, so to speak. The other problem is maintaining the sound and the cohesiveness of the group despite occasional (and sometimes frequent)changes in personnel.

I just heard from Randy, who has been living in northern California in recent years. He, Clarence Treat, Art Podell and Barry McGuire (when available) still get together with some others for reunion concerts. He still does what he calls a single act (with two people). I think he has passed his 70th birthday, but he's still very active, as are the others.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 11:54 AM

Please give Sue my regards Fogie
Al

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 12:24 PM

I suppose the Golowan Band would count, wouldn't it?

sian

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 08:13 PM

I was in a large performing folk ensemble--we had more than thirty members, including singers, dancers, and instrumentalists. It was great fun but a lot of the spontaneity and freedom that is associated with folk performances goes out the window. On one hand, it has to be tightly run from the top down, but on the other, it must be a coordinated coopertive effort.

Everything must be planned and arranged, from performance materials to snacks. Disagreements, or even just things that no one is sure about, can eat up valuable time--think about it, when you've got a group of 30 or so people rehearsing, fifteen minutes of downtime means you've wasted 7.5 hours of people's time--even worse, you've got to find some other time to do the work that you missed--

Also, with a big group, you have to spend money on a lot of things that small groups can manage out of hand. Transportation, rehearsal space, sound system and set up, hotel rooms, costumes, and insurance, for examples--

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: johnross
Date: 01 Oct 07 - 09:35 PM

Years ago, I was engineer on a contra dance LP called something like "The Canterbury Country Dance Orchestra Meets the F & W String Band." The combined band had about 29 fiddles, 17 flutes, six accordions, plus autoharp, piano, string basses and various other instruments, for a total of more than 60 musicians. The sound, as you might guess, was quite wonderful.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Ernest
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 02:12 AM

http://17hippies.com/17hneu_eng/index.html

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:38 PM

I was part of a Christmas band that had six or seven members. The shows were fun to do for one month a year. Like Grab mentioned above, I was also part of a group where the leader would bring in unexpected extras. Again, he wanted the feeling of a house session brought to stage. I told him several times, that once we go onstage, we've changed that vibe. The last time I played in that format I thought it would be the band leader, a fine fiddler, a harper and a bodhran player. When the Suzuki string quartet showed up and enough guest vocalists to fill out the extras for a Ken Russell film, all five minutes before we were due to start performing I thought things were really getting out of hand. I did wind up saying at that point, that I didn't like surprises. Just telling suzuki students to jam along when the spirit moved, did them and us no favors. Also, any harp player showing up that close to starting time, and then announcing that they need to tune, is unprofessional. Come to think of it, that was the last time I played in that format.

Subject: RE: Has anyone ever started a folk big band
From: Kaleea
Date: 02 Oct 07 - 03:53 PM

I'd say the Carp Camp at the annual Walnut Valley Music Festival ought to qualify for that. Trouble is, everybody only gets together once a year.