2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

" they should not sound like Peter Pears Ewan"
Course they shouldn't Dick yet the revival you refereed to as Ewan and Peggy    "being out of touch with" was full of Carthy and Joanie Clones, Bellamy Bleaters (Peter's own description of his singing) and Wannabe Waterson mini choirs - all names conveniently overlooked by you.
The whole point of the work of the Critics Group was for each singer to find their own natural voice and develop it as far as possible - traying to sound like anybody other than yourself was discouraged (exapt for being used as an exercise in lerning how the voice was produced by different people.
"I am told that this was little sister's ruling."
The only people to make any "rules" AT THE Singers Clubwas the audience committee - I know bevcause I served on it for years
Nice to see the technophobe have all risen from their ow2n graves while I was away
Back tomorrw with my sharpened stake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 01:38 AM

Ewan was a good singer, and his advice on vocal warm up exercises IMO is good and on breath control, but then so would the advice of an opera singer, but IMO every singer should be unique and sound like them selves, they should not sound like PeterPears Ewan or anyone else but them selves

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Feb 18 - 01:33 AM

No, he wasn't; he was somebody who evolved a unique approach to the singing of traditional songs; quote Jim Carroll. the same applies to Martin Carthy, Bob Davenport, they allhave their own unique style and approach.
adjective: unique
    being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else.
my impression of listening to recordings of the critics group meetings is this, Ewan pointed out that he did not like a particular approach by another singer to a song , but the way that he said it on the recording was schoolmasterly and authoritarian.to my ears it comes across asEwans way was the only way, my opinion is this;that if people listened uncritically to ewans approach they would sound like Ewan, now

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 06:54 AM

I booked them in the 1980s at a folk club Ewan was very interested in the surrounding area, i explained that the main employment was the brewery and the sugar beet factory, they gave a very good evening and listened to all the performers throughout the night.
i did a support for them in concert int the 1980s, Peggy and i had a long conversation about a number of things including songwriting, she said to me when we go abroad we hear lots of good songwriters, but nothing in the uk, I was flabbergasted because at that time there were many good songwriters in the uk, PeterBond, BillCaddick, leon Rosselson keith hancock, to name a few.
on reflection, I can only conclude that they had lost touch with what was going on the rest of the uk folk scene, this was possibly because the often did concerts and preferred to not have any support acts, and that the folk clubs that they did do were only a small minority of their overall gigs

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 04:03 AM

It certainly would be well over 50 years ago that Marsden Inn booked MacColl and Seeger Jim B as I recall being disappointed not being able to get to see them as at that time I was too young to visit licensed premises (rules were much more strict in those days).
However if that was their attitude it had changed immeasurably when they were booked across town at South Tyne Folk and Blues three times between 1969 and 1972. They populated the club room throughout the night; Ewan was most complimentary regarding the standard of the residents and the organisation of the club and both were highly receptive of requests from the audience for certain songs. On one occasion during the interval two of our resident musicians, Terry Kelly and Matty Scott, were playing a few tunes Peggy went across with her concertina and joined in the session playing, as I recall, "The Weaver's March".
The last time we booked them at the end of the night Ewan was asking me all sorts of questions regarding the North East scene such as how Birtley club was doing and how were Ed Pickford and Benny Graham?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Feb 18 - 03:55 AM

Ewan was not averse to skiffle at one point in his career in earlier times having recorded with alan lomax ramblers, he then does a complete about turn and is idactic about eveyone other than tom paley and peggy seeger singing songs from the area they come from.Whether this decision was to do with his connection with the CPGB,or whether it was entirely due to Alan Lomax and his influence, is debatable, that is if it is possible to debate with Jim Carroll, anyys as Alex Cambell said, it [prevented scottish people from singing WoodyGuthrie songs at the singers club, which was idiosyncratic and eccentric considering MacColls political views

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

And, OH YES THE SINGERS CLUB and Peggy Seeger bursting out laughingat a supposed cockney singing a " leadbelly song", by extension Peggy should not be singing appalachian material, as she was not from the appalchians I believe the offending singer who later became quite famous, was from the watford area, not a feckin cockney at all.
" Both McColl and Brannigan were professional singers, and in my opinion therefore professional entertainers, and they needed a worked-out stage act to make a living " quote.
professional entertainers do need a worked out stage act, but they need to be able to vary the act, but they need flexibilty to suit differing audiences., one of the best examples of this that i saw was John Foreman, I was doing a concert with him[ a split gig]at a caravan camping club, John was brilliant he had the audience eating from his hand,his jokes appeared to be spontaneous and were geared towards the campers.
In my opinion MacColls only weakness as a performer was a lack of spontaneity, a tendency to sing the song the same way every time, however despite that he was a very polished professional performer

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 07:57 AM

Thanks for posting that Vic I hadn't seen it before.

I know of a somewhat similar situation, I was not there but a long time friend (40 years plus) of one of the two people involved was. I make this clear for the sake of The Chief Policeman of Folk Music who has been known to post here.

Mike Seeger was booked at the Singer's Club. In the audience was a regular attendee Tom Paley. I expect that most people here will know that Mike and Tom together with John Cohen were The New Lost City Ramblers who in the minds of many were responsible in a huge way for reviving a huge interest in folk music.

Mike thought it would be a good idea if Tom Joined him for the set as they had worked together so well in the past. I am sure that this would have gone down very well with the people who had paid to see Mike.

However Mike was told NO, he was booked as a single and could only perform solo. I am told that this was little sister's ruling.

Hard to understand.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

The two gentlemen with the same forename appear to differ in their memories and appreciation of The Singers Club, so I thought that it might be useful to have a third view on the subject. This is text-scanned from pages 81 - 82 of The Elliotts of Birtley by Pete Wood Herron Books [2008] ISBN 9 780954 068233 In fairness it ought to be pointed out that one of the Jims is quoted in this extract :-

Some time in the early '60s there was a Club trip to the Singers' Club in London at the request of Ewan and Peggy. A 40-seater coach was duly filled and down they all went. Some have mixed feelings about the trip, saying MacColl was arrogant and didn't let them sing. They had thought they were taking over the Club for the night. In fact, however, it was just the Elliott family that had been asked to go. Imagine the effect of these boisterous Geordies, all het up and raring to go, on the staid Singers' Club audience of that time!
However, as Bob Davenport, the Gateshead singer long exiled in London, comments, Jack was told what to sing at the Singers' Club. It seemed he was there as a performer, obliged to pop up from time to time in order to illustrate a point from MacColl's 'lecture'. He was delighted to find that when invited to sing at the Fox Club in Islington, he could sing anything he liked when he liked! (Different approach, different people, the Folk Revival had it all.)
Jim Bainbridge, long-exiled singer and musician, and member of the legendary Marsden Rattlers of the 60s and 70s, has this to say:
"Tolerant folk clubs taught many of us that, given the opportunity, most singers improve with time and experience, and that this serves the tradition much better than the quality control exercised at Ewan MacColl's Singers Club. MacColl was a wonderful songwriter and promoter of the tradition as he saw it, but as a man of the theatre - with little time for imperfection - his ideas for improving the quality of singing were applied via technical advice and analysis rather than absorption by exposure to the perceived inadequacies of unbelievers. No less a singer than old Jack Elliott of Birtley was once castigated by this crowd - after a return visit to the Singer's Club, disappointment was expressed that his singing hadn't "improved" since his last visit -What a damn cheek!"
There was also apparently a comment by either Ewan or Peggy that Jack "hadn't moved on", implying that they expected him to develop a stage act, much as they had done. It's sad that they didn't see the true value of such a natural singer who had such a wide appeal without artificial devices. Certainly the way the Elliotts' visit to the Singers' Club was treated looks like that, but for Graeme Miles there was something more. For him, doing it that way was just as artificial a way of presenting the material as was the Owen Brannigan/Peter Pears approach. It seems the essential point here is the different reasons for singing. Both McColl and Brannigan were professional singers, and in my opinion therefore professional entertainers, and they needed a worked-out stage act to make a living. So folkies like me can take a lofty view of Brannigan's style as decidedly 'art' rather than 'folk'. But then McColl didn't sing like a working man or a traditional singer either. (This area will be taken up in more detail later.) But like most things involving MacColl, it was never as simple as that.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 06:47 AM

"By the way EM V BD - in your dreams"

Now there's a ghastly thought. ;-)

I admire BD this side idolatry, but his proposition, "I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours" struck me as one of the worst "lose-lose" bargains I'd ever heard. Throw EM in there with him and I wake up screaming.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

that is your opinion, some of what you say is true,some of it i disagree with. yes i have listened to some of the critics group meetings, and my opinion is different from you, he was trying to help, but in my opinion he is overbearing and controlling the situation, Ewan was in charge.
I also listened to the clip of the meeting with Ewan, Bert, alex campbell and bob davenport, and in my opinion AlexCampbell talked more sense than anyone else when he said and i quote,
"does that mean Icannot sing woody guthrie songs because i am not american". Jim ,the singers club policy was flawed, that was a ridiculous decision that prevented scottiish people from singing woody guthrie or american songs at their club.
meanwhile peggy seeger who was not from the appalachian mountains was allowed to sing appalachian songs, despite not being from appalachia, just completely bizarre

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 03:59 AM

"he was a mediocre musician,"
You have me there Dick - what did he play?
He was a brilliant tune adapter - he seldom used tunes lifted straight from other songs but adapted them out of all recognition to the original
When Peggy published his songbook she sent us a list of a dozen tunes she couldn't trace
He and Peggy, Lloyd and Lomax started the reviaval with a gang of other enthusiasts
He was far from hmourless - he was actually enjoyable and stimulating company
He neverf patronised, on the contrary, he told you what he thought of you and your singing straight from the shoulder if you asked him - that was why some people disliked him
Over and over again, i saw singers at the club sing from the floor and go to MacColl for comments - he told you exactly what he thought, what he thought was good and how he felt it could be improved
That was how The Critics Group worked - we all did exactly that to each other's singing -
I still do when I think it will be received in the manner it is offered and I expect the same from others when I sing
Pat and I work this way at home though she no longer sings because of vocal problems - it is an ideal way to keep on form
After your opening comments on this thread, I hardly think you are in the position to call anybody patronising if you don't mind me saying so (I'm sure you do)
They didn't isolate themselves from the revival - theyy were largely ostracised because they didn't go with teh flow, accept the increasingly crap standards and stuck to an identifiable type of song
You can still get dozens of newly-re-issued MacColl and Seeger albums - most of them, in fact
How many folk stars can you say that about?
As you say - the proof of the pudding...
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Feb 18 - 03:37 AM

Ewan was a successful performer and songwriter, as a performer I am curious to understand why? he was a mediocre musician, but he had a partner who was very competent.
in my opinion he was a very good writer, he presented his material well and was professional in his attitude.
He along with others did much to keep the uk folk revival going for many years. I think he is needed now because the folk revival is going in a direction of passive consumerism, one of the things that attracted me in the first place to the uk folk revival that it was an oasis for home made music.Ewan was a strong charcter, who was committed to the uk folk revival, to trying to acheive political and social change[all things that I would agree with]
I did not always agree with his folk club policy and avoided his club,though in hindsight I understand why he was trying to do what he thought was right.
I did not know him as well as Jim Carroll, but my impressiin of him was that he was humourless and on occasions overbearing and patronising.He was also generous with his time and experience, and   tried to help other performers
I believe they unintentionally isolated themselves from the uk folk revival[ this opinion is a result of a conversation i had with Peggy], but he has left lots of very good songs and was someone who could steer the present rudderless ship of the uk folk revival towards home made music and higher standards of performing.
I am interested to read his advice about performing and songwriting, the fact that I did not like him or want to go to his club does not mean that I did not rate him as a performer or song writer and while i dont think he was always right, I think the uk folk revival at this moment in time needs someone who is strong enough to push it away from passive consumerism
Alternatively perhaps we need another skiffle revival,skiffle encouraged so many young people to take up home made american based folk music., it was the antitnesis of the present dayuk folk revival which in the hands of commercial agents appears to worship the pursuit of money and passive consumerism turning the music in to another form of sanitised folky flavoured pop music

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:25 PM

By the way EM V BD - in your dreams
No competition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 08:24 PM

"I don't intend to be drawn into another pointless argument about EM v BD but don't know where the 'hissy fit' came from-"
You went spare when I criticised Davenport
"showing absolutely NO interest in hearing the locals or even talking to them. I've never forgotten that."
I first got to know Ewan and Peggy because they insited on talking to locals ansd sitting in when the residents were performing - In Liverpool, in Manchester, in Crewe, and in every other Club
They insisted that the members of the Critics Group did the same
Are you sre we're talking about the same people ?
We booked guests every month - most of them sat in the bar and waited till it was their turn to perform
Your story of the Singers Club being "the club itself to be extremely self-satisfied and worthy," is also crap
It was no such thing - certainly in the twenty years I attended
There was no regular audience as such - People came to see Ewan, others came to see Peggy, some came for both, some for Bert, for Frankie Armstrong and Bert Lloyd - all different, some for different resident groupings and regular guests like Tom Paley
We had a regular Irish audience because it was policy to regularly book Irish performers
In the summer it was crammed with visitors to London - especially Americans ans Scots
There was never a regular "club" as such -
Why do you people make these things up?
The club was devoted to presenting good songs well sung - it was never intended to be a get-together
Any socialising was done in the bar later or in some of the outside activities and trips out - even the research projects
It took the music seriously - that's why it lasted as long as it did with good turnouts
Ill tell you something Jim - If Ewan had thrown the a fraction of the unprofessional nastiness at fallow performers and enthusiasts that people like you are still throwing at him thirty years after his death he would have deserved all the shit that people like you make up about him
In the years I knew him I never heard him once slag off a fellow folkie, certainly not in public
Some people make a career out of it (not mentioning any names of course!!)
He must have done something right to cause such insecurity among you people
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 03 Feb 18 - 05:51 PM

I don't intend to be drawn into another pointless argument about EM v BD but don't know where the 'hissy fit' came from- - shows you have a lively imagination- you seem very sensitive about that one incident! origin somewhere in that tunnel vision I suppose?

Knowledgable as EM was, my first impression of him was when he & Peggy Seeger came to our Marsden Inn club over 50 years ago and only entered the crowded club room to do their 2x 45 mins, showing absolutely NO interest in hearing the locals or even talking to them. I've never forgotten that....


BD has his faults, have known him long enough to know that but you seem to think EM had none, it's quite clear! I do recall the Singers club well & it was boring as hell..., enough to put people off for life- bit like your posts.
& hello Dick, it may be you find his book interesting & I can't contradict that, but I think if I had a copy, I'd put it under that shoogly table in our kitchen...
Buenas Noches   Jim

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Feb 18 - 05:01 PM

yes leave it and go away.
this book is excellent and i am rereading it, his comments on performing are particularly good ,i thought it interesting that he and peggy actually practised forgetting part of a ballad and then ad libbing, what a brilliant idea. the people that cannot get away from reading from texts should take note

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:41 PM

I've said my piece on MacColl as an individual - I had twenty years to reach the conclusions I did, including a period when I lived with them while I was looking for a home and job
I'll go by that rather than a few visits to the Singers Club any day
Perssonal tastes don't enter into any of this
Can I just remind you that, some time ago, when I related a couple of personal experiences (rather than spiteful folklore legends) describing the nastiness of your own particular hero, you threw a hissy-fit that anybody should speak ill of such a hero of the people.
You appear to reserve a right for yourself that you are not prepared to extend to others.
Another occasion when MacColl's work becomes a no-go area
Ah well!! ]It's not me that doesn't get it
Let's leave it there
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 29 Jan 18 - 02:08 PM

Don't think you quite got it, Jim- yer man MacColl certainly contributed greatly to the 'folk revival' but really there is a bit more to it! Even Jim Baxter wasn't perfect- that was the point!!!

I went to the Singers' club a few times in the sixties, although never sang or played- I wasn't asked- it wasn't that sort of place, was it? We were there to pay homage to the saviours of the tradition, not to take part in it.
I respect the songs EM wrote, many were and are, excellent, but he wasn't really the man of the people his political views would demand. I found his approach analytical and the club itself to be extremely self-satisfied and worthy, unlike the other London clubs of the time, mostly with a very different approach, the best of which stressed enjoyment and involvement but with no lack of quality-

   in particular the Fox at Islington- Bob Davenport & Co-   BOO!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 02:25 PM

I f you bothered to calm down and read my posts properly you would be aware that i had already given my opinion and now i quote
I am reading this and also reading journeyman , which i find a more interesting read, i have admiration for peggy as a performer, but i dont think this biography does her justice in fact it has in my opinion a negative tone and a critical carping flavour. so Jim ifound it an interesting read.no i did not find it disapoiinting .
it seems honest and explains a lot about his back groun
d and his approach to performing and songwriting, it is IMO, good. he talks openly revealing his good points and his flaws which include his lack of musicianship.
he thought a lot about performance, he analysed and intellectualised folk music, the plus side of which is the legacy of fine songs he wrote. I would recommend this book as a good read

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:31 AM

"but we are then insulted and misquoted by you you are not Dick - you are trying to show how clever you are
"very occasionally Ewan pontificates on music and shows his lack of knowledge,"
What did you think of the book, (apart from MacColl's failings, of course)?
Personally, I found it a little disappointing - not because of any 'lack of knowledge' but because it was written in a hurry and at a particularly bad period of his life
I feel it would have been far better if it had been written before The Critics Group broke up, or some years later, when the effects of the break-up had died down.
There are much better autobiographical accounts of Ewan and even better biographical ones, mainly in sound form and partial - 'Parsley, Sage and Politics' is pretty good, and the six part series recorded in Ireland is even better
Jim

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 11:16 AM

we are trying to discuss his work including his failings as well as his good points, but we are then insulted and misquoted by you.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 06:32 AM

Why do you - or does anybody do that Jim?
I've made my point about MacColl - he did a mass of research into folk song and took a day a week out of his life to work with younger and less experienced singers while the rest of the superstars got on with their careers
THat's the MacColl I knew for twenty years
Three decades after his death, people are still digging him up to give him a kicking - which says what needs to be said about both him and them
I have no interest in canonising MacColl, even if I went in for that sort of thing or believed he deserved it.
He left behind a body of work that, in my opinion, needs to be discussed and might, just might, help sort out the shambolic revival we are left with
Apart from the personal pleasure I still get from his singing, and the work he left behind, that is my attitude to a dead friend
The sick necrophobia that prevents such a discussion from taking place represents everything that went wrong with an important and extremely enjoyable part of my life
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge
Date: 27 Jan 18 - 05:37 AM

occasionally dipping into mudcat as I do, discussions about MacColl are amazingly vitriolic.
My opinion of him doesn't matter, and Mr Carroll's humourless tunnel vision about the man will not provoke a reply from me.
It just reminds me of the time in the sixties when Sunderland FC (benighted then as today!) signed the inspirational Rangers player Jim Baxter.
Local fans saw him as the saviour of the club, and could see no fault in his play. Eddie MacIntyre (Jarrow raconteur and singer) was heard to say in the middle of a football discussion in the pub...

'That Baxter, he's only got one fault'

   This was greeted by a stunned silence- was his fault a poor tackling technique, slow reactions, or a suspect hamstring? Surely the new hero was perfect in every way?

After a suitable interval, Eddie said- 'Oh yes, he has one fault, he once had a filling in his back left molar....

Thought I'd share that with you- Eddie is still active on Tyneside, and can be seen in action on YouTube- look up 'Doreen Henderson's 90th birthday party'

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:49 AM

"But it was a funny mistake! I didn't want it to be anything other than a lighter moment. "
Sure you did Vic!!
That's why you continued to make a point of it right up to the present
It's an old ploy on this forum - "when in doubt, find a typo"
"perpetrator," definition "a person who carries out a harmful, illegal, or immoral act."
"I would like at this point out that there have been a number of such occurrences"
That was a long, and sometimes quite distressing thread
Being an unashamed fan of courtroom dramas I have become fascinated by the behaviour of shyster lawyers who attempt to destroy the credibility of witnesses by presenting their evidence out of context
Because the subject is as important to me is it is I was fairly careful not to blow my top, as I occasionally do - there were a few lapses when things became personal and nasty -I never resorted to personal attacks, but others did - one individual in particular - "attention seeking", "politically driven", "no support", "if you want to criticise, go and write your own book", "you's never written one. I've written three"... and a pm that virtually descended to hate mail
In true dramatic form, you selected and my lapses and ignored the rest - all good stuff for 'Law and Order UK'. pretty shabby way of debating.
You've done the same here
"A dyslexic, a megalomaniac and a typo-stalker - three for the price of one! "
Hoot persists in demanding an answer three times to the question he keeps asking - maybe sarcasm is the lowest form of with, but it's handy occasionally
Dick - well, we've all seen how Dick behaves occasionally - I've been threatened with violence by him in the past
And you - hardly the hard-done-by victim with the behaviour I have described
As I say, typos are often handy refuges when there is nothing else
Finished here I think Vic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Modette
Date: 26 Jan 18 - 03:30 AM

I love the idea of a 'Wold Music Department'? Is its head called 'Chalkie'?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:59 PM

[precious] Jim, men say iron sharpens iron and in this you are indomitable and as a junior will presume to also say a kind word never broke anyone's mouth [\precious]

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:02 PM

"New," my foot --
it was new eleven years ago?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:23 PM

Yes Vic, I noticed that too, but was typing on my phone and couldn't work out how to correct it. TBH, i wanted to delete the entire line, it was too catty.

I like Mudcat. I barely post, but use it as a resource frequently. It saddens me when the more researched members of the community fall into ridiculously entrenched mud-slinging.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:05 PM

but we mustn't let that spoil you fun, must we?

But it was a funny mistake! I didn't want it to be anything other than a lighter moment. If I had made such a slip and someone had pointed it out, I would have laughed at my own error and probably posted something else to continue the joke. Instead, the perpetrator, rather than seeing the funny side of his own error - the two words are quite close, after all - resorted to insult, which in my book is rather sad!

Up to now I have never insulted you... [Objection, M'Lud- I would like at this point out that there have been a number of such occurances, for instance, I give in evidence Exhibit A. The accused wrote "You really have gone over to the dark side, Vic." This was for a posting which he disgreed with. I won't waste the court's time with the numerous other examples. One only has to look two lines above the 'no insult' claim to read "your childishly snide behaviour of late Vic" and this, your honour, I would submit that a reasonable man would regard as an insult.] ... when you pointed out the pressure broadside writers worked under I mistakenly (apparently) took it you were saying something I have always said - that they were poor songwriters because of the speed they were forced to work to earn their pennies.
It was never a deliberate attempt to misinterpret what you said, but it would mean a climb-down for you to accept that, so I don't hold out too much hope.
In response to this, I need to draw the attention of members of the jury to the statement of my learned friend, Lord Miles of Ballydehob when he stated "you are constantly misquoting and insulting people on this forum" which turns our attention from the 'insulting' element of the charge to the 'misquoting' part.
In my post about broadside writers, I pointed out that the writers of the rather tiresome prose broadsides claiming to be last speech of some poor felon standing on the gallows had to finish their work quickly without time to correct any errors or to polish their words before the prisoner was swinging at the end of the rope. I likened the 'last speech of...' broadsides to football programmes; both had to be sold before the crowd dispersed (and please note 'speech' writers rather than 'songwriters' as was stated by the accused. I made no claim about the quality of their writing 'poor' or otherwise.
I now 'climb-down' not from the gallows, but from this thread but 'I don't hold out too much hope' that the light-hearted banter of this response will be received in the manner it was presented.

Finally, may I point out another slip - Guest CJ wrote - 25 Jan 18 - 07:09 - Queue an arrogant response from Jim. when he clearly meant "Cue an arrogant..." etc. I wonder if CJ - if he responds - will see the funny side or return with an insult!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 03:25 PM

"MacColl, like all of us, had many flaws."
He had indeed, knew him long enough to observe them up close
I have little interest in what people thought of MacColl
It does concern me that, of all the people I knew in the revival, he did the most work on making sense of folk song and passing on what he learned
He did this within a group though mutual discussion and sharing ideas one with the other - a process made possible by he and Peg throwing open their home to others for one night a week over a period of nearly ten years - I was lucky enough to be part of that for a short time.
As far as I know, nobody was doing anything similar and few attached importance to folk songs as an art form
That, like everything MacColl did, didn't always work, but the process was recorded and remains as a body of unique work (nearly 200 tapes worth)
I have the recordings and have been trying to raise interest in this work for several years - as with our recordings of Walter Pardon et al, there is no interest in this project in Britain so we have finally got Limerick University to agree to house it in their Wold Music Department and possibly make it available to the general public by putting it on line.
I've long given up any hope of holding a rational discussion on MacColl's work without first having to scramble over a garbage mountain of army records and name change (this latter often from Robert Zimmermann or John Pandrich fans)
"Venerable Bede, the Northumbrian monk of the 7th/8th century and his rendering of this as the Veritable Bede!"
If you care to check the Roud book thread you will find that I have quoted the name at least three times, using the correct spelling - but we mustn't let that spoil you fun, must we?
My once respectful memories of you have been wiped away by your childishly snide behaviour of late Vic
Only someone bereft of intelligent argument resorts to typos as a substitute for argument and discussion
Up to now I have never insulted you - when you pointed out the pressure broadside writers worked under I mistakenly (apparently) took it you were saying something I have always said - that they were poor songwriters because of the speed they were forced to work to earn their pennies
It was never a deliberate attempt to misinterpret what you said, but it would mean a climb-down for you to accept that, so I don't hold out too much hope and, truth to tell, I no longer care
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 02:09 PM

seem to recall that in the classic book '1066 and all that' the early Christian saint in this thread was called the Venomous Bead....... bit of light relief from the 'puerility' currently on offer?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: MickyMan
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

My voice recognition just entered "Ewan" as "You Nguyen".    I thought that was quite serendipitous, since MacColl was an undesputable "You Nguyen" man from the get-go!

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:19 AM

And as for typo-stalker, I was giving the person who insulted me in this way the huge benefit of the doubt in calling his lapse a "typo" when it was clear that he did not realise what a huge mistake it was not to know the difference between the Venerable Bede, the Northumbrian monk of the 7th/8th century and his rendering of this as the Veritable Bede!

Of course, it could have been his keyboard not interpreting his typing accurately again.....

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 08:07 AM

You would think that someone who has read a statement about himself like -

you are constantly misquoting and insulting people on this forum

would at least pause to reflect that there may be something to consider in that way he words his posts here, but no, three posts later, he goes with -

A dyslexic, a megalomaniac and a typo-stalker - three for the price of one!

What does this further insult achieve but serve as further evidence of Dick's claim of this poster's sustained policy of defamation of those who have the temerity to disagree with him.
I am sure that I am not the only person who comes to Mudcat for reasoned discussion, perhaps lightened when things get a bit heavy with some humour. Yet when this person enters the discussion, anyone else who posts risks the chance of receiving the sort of bile encountered in my quotation from him above.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,CJ
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 07:09 AM

No one is perfect.

MacColl, like all of us, had many flaws.

Refusing to even accept that basic fact makes so many of your arguments instantly questionable, Jim, as we are all SO aware of how heavily you side with Ewan, who was a mere mortal. It's similar to a football fan refusing to believe any criticism of their own beloved team, despite them languishing mid-table and at times being beaten by teams who on paper would appear weaker.

Queue an arrogant response from Jim.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 06:49 AM

Jim,

You seem to be a little confused, I didn't ask for you CV. But it does explain a lot.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:55 AM

You talking to yourself again Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Jan 18 - 05:33 AM

is it necessary to turn every discussion in to perpetual puerility?.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 07:05 PM

"Despite two requests."
You've had your answer twice Hoot
A dyslexic, a megalomaniac and a typo-stalker - three for the price of one!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 02:43 PM

Riding off into the sunset?

Sounds like the guy who accused me of being dishonest but has yet to show me where. Despite two requests.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 01:26 PM

The phantom thumb strikes again - and then rides off into the sunset
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:36 PM

you are constantly misquoting and insulting people on this forum


Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:28 AM

Jim it is you that needs help, please do not misquote, my quote was
Yes Jim,I would have put him straight, if he had asked, but Iwould consider it to have been rude unless he had asked.
you are constantly misquoting and insulting people on this forum , get help yourself

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:23 PM

"Yes Jim,I would have put him straight,"
Get help Dick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:38 PM

however what he says about programming and other aspects of performing[ balance of repertoire is very good

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 03:35 PM

Yes Jim,I would have put him straight, if he had asked, but Iwould consider it to have been rude unless he had asked
Ewan was a fine songwriter and singer but was not much of a musician, Peggy is a fine musician., and was responsible for most of the musical arrangements
Jim when will you stop being so defensive about Ewan. an example of ewan bollocks is page 306," the way of holding the fiddle is different"
no, Ewan not necessarily, the classical hold does not prevent a musician from being a good fiddler, what it does is allow the fiddler to play in third position in the style of n boyle, if he desires it also just like good posture in perfomance for singers allows the fiddle to perform without physical problems, this does not mean that fiddlers who hold the fiddle in a non classical way will inevitably have problems some do, some do not, one example who has is Liz Carroll, but there are others who have not, what is important with fiddle playing[regardless of the genre of the music] is how you hold the bow to enable good wrist movement. Ewan was pontificating on a subject he was ill informed about.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:24 PM

"Ewan pontificates on music and shows his lack of knowledge, b"
Should have come to you to put him straight, shouldn't he Dick !!!
Oh dear
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

i have just read journeyman, an interesting read, very occasionally Ewan pontificates on music and shows his lack of knowledge, but on the whole a very good read

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 16 - 03:05 PM

Ewan MacColl, his influence can still be seen in the UK Folk Revival, his influence can be seen here today in County Cork, mainly the singing of his songs and indirectly in the resung repertoire of Luke Kelly.