2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:35 PM

joe henry and billy bragg sing rock island line billy sings in an american accent ,it is a good version stop talking crap,it does not prevent a good perfomance, the singers club with their proscriptive rules, they were so earnest, they seem to have forgotten that most people want to hear just a good perfomance billy bragg proves my point go on to you tube and open your ears and listen it is a good version his american accent does not ruin the performance.
long john recorded rock island line and attended the singers club, and yet you seem to think it was not him
"What made Ewan unique was his desire to share ideas and pass on opinions, information and material"of course that was generous of him ,but he was not the only one doing so ,he was not unique, for example davey graham spent a whole 12 hours showin MARTIN CARTHY DADGAD

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:50 PM

Dick,

Used to be the Bells of St Mary le Bow Church in the City of London but some East Enders seem to think it was St Mary at Stratford atte Bow in Bow Road in the East End.
Problem for me is do I or do I not qualify?

"it was an East London lad local to the club according to Peggy"

Just to clarify Ballads & Blues meetings were at that time held at The Princess Louise which is in Holborn which is NOT local to the East End.

The obit linked by TheSnail above also says that MacColl Made an exception for John Baldry. Is that right? John was a regular at the Ballads and Blues and was there at it's final evening as was by co-incidence the lady that Ewan would not allow to sing an American song some years earlier when he and Peggy were regulars at the Princess Louise.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:09 PM

"davey graham spent a whole 12 hours showin MARTIN CARTHY DADGAD"

12 hours showing him how to detune 3 strings? Wow. Either a crap teacher or a dense student.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 07:14 PM

It's a gross distortion of how the group worked
Jim Carroll

You are now saying that Sandra Kerr, Frankie Armstrong, Brian Pearson, Richard Snell, Phil Colclough were all lying?
Me
And, of course, Peggy Seeger was involved in the programme.

Perhaps I'll never know.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:04 AM

You are now saying that Sandra Kerr, Frankie Armstrong, Brian Pearson, Richard Snell, Phil Colclough were all lying?
And, of course, Peggy Seeger was involved in the programme."
Damn - never noticed that Bryan - I could have sworn that Martin Carthy made the programme and drew the conclusions - silly me !!
AS has been proven over and over again by you, among others, taking statements out of context can prove anything
Themisleading title was enough to show the direction the programme took
"Jim an east londoner is not a cockney unless born within the sound of bow bells. "
Who said they were Dick - what on earth are you referring to
If you're going to continue your aggressive bad behaviour I suggest you desist from it yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:42 AM

Guest Cj above would appear to have little knowledge about guitar playing. Personally I think that it would take more than 12 hours to learn to play in a completely different tuning.

I never have enjoyed the work of either of the musicians involved but there is no denying that they were, or in Martin's case is still excellent musicians. Neither being crap nor dense.

Yet more uncalled for insults.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:51 AM

There was a scouse country and western band in the 1970's who were very good called The Hillsiders.

Made a great album....Okie from Muskogee, She's Mine, Yes Virginia, Crying in the Rain,

Almost a blueprint for how to be a 1970's country band.

Just a different tribe.. They were playing the miners welfares, holiday camps. WMC's and Irish centres. Great singers and musicians.

The music had a great resonance for miners. I remember a 12 year old kid singing in class Merle Travis's Dark as a Dungeon, and the whole class joined in.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 11:53 AM

"no jim, an a north east american singer singing appalachian songs is no more valid accent wise than a londoner singing geordie songs."
Neiether Peggy or Tom Paley ever attempted an "Appalachian" accent - not in my hearing anyway
As yo so rudely say "stop talking balderdash." and if you re going to continue being so arrogantly rude, stop whining about others
Get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:29 PM

Ah, the "out of context" defense. Totally meaningless and totally unanswerable.

gross distortion of how the group worked

Who are you accusing of gross distortion?

Off for a very pleasant evening at the club. One of tonight's guests knew Walter Pardon.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:47 PM

Ah, the "out of context" defense. Totally meaningless and totally unanswerable."
If I spent the effort you do calling you a liar and saying you have no idea what is happening in you7r club you would have every justification in complaining about my behaviour
You really are a nasty piece of work aren't you Bryan?
You are providing a perfect example of the shit throwers who snapped around MacColl's heels when he was living and are now doing the same now he is dead
Get a life, fori crying out loud
"One of tonight's guests knew Walter Pardon."
Why not ask him why there is no place in the UK for Walter any more?
You ought to be ashamed of yourself Bryan

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:49 PM

Who are you accusing of gross distortion?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:52 PM

jim you are missing the point agaim, peggy and tom were singing in an accent that was their own[ but not authentic appalchian] at the singers club, yet peggy laughs at someone else singing in their own accent bcause it was not like leadbellys yet it was their own accent.the singers club is beginning to sound like the mad hatters tea party

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 01:58 PM

"peggy and tom were singing in an accent that was their own"
That's what I said Dick
Nobody hads ever suggested that people should sing songs that originated in their own backyard - most of us don't have access to those songs
Why are you belaboring this point
"Who are you accusing of gross distortion?"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:01 PM

I am not a shit thrower Ewan was a polished professional performer an excellent songwriter and a good singer, he was generous with his time but not unique in that respect, one example has been given that of davey graham, so he was not the only one who was generous with his time, he along with others imposed a flawed rule[ i have pointed out the flaws[ before.the rule was proscriptive and as i have pointed out reminscent of the mad hatters tea party, that is criticism of the rule, it is not a criticism of Ewan as a performer or song writer, that is carefu;l criticism plus praise for his abilties, it is not shit throwing.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:14 PM

Bryan is a hard working club organiser who along with others also organises workshops. I found him to be an agreeable person and a good performer. Ihavenever met you and as i do not judge people until i have met them in the real world , Iwill not comment o you as a person your behaviour on this thread and others imo diminshes your good actions eg generous help to others on this forum

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:37 PM

"Why not ask him why there is no place in the UK for Walter any more?"

Unless I have mis-read things, from re-reading the Musical Traditions articles referred to a few days back it would appear that there is a place, at least two in fact which have collections of recordings of Walter Pardon The NSA and the Vaughan Willliams library at Cecil Sharp House.

There would appear to have been several people who have recorded Walter over the years so perhaps the organisations in the UK have what they consider sufficient material already.

In addition I am sure that the excellent collection put out by Rod Stradling on the Musical Traditions label is still available.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:38 PM

"I found him to be an agreeable person "
I'm sut=re yiou do - I find him gratuitously nasty - a sign of low self-esteem in my experience - not unlike necrophilia and shit- throwing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 02:49 PM

ah but you have not met him, you are judging him on your communications here on the net something that i have not done with you, it is a mistake to judge people when you have not met them, i have also met keith a of hertford, in person he is a -pleasant man with an interest in traditional songs, you have not met him but you insult both bryan and keith though you have never met either of them.

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 03:12 PM

I find him gratuitously nasty - a sign of low self-esteem in my experience - not unlike necrophilia and shit- throwing

Dick knows Bryan slightly but likes what he has seen, I have known him well for over forty years and have worked with him on quite a lot of projects. We have been fellow members of the organising committee of Lewes Folk Festival for around a decade now and I find him very pleasant company and very easy to work with. Apart from the work on this festival, he puts a lot of hours into being involved in sharing the running of the folk club in Lewes, running regular tune sessions and other events in the town. He is also the webmaster for a number of local folk music websites, I would not like to say how many hours he puts into behind-the-scenes organisation each week but I would reckon that the figure must be at the higher end of those spent by committed folk enthusiasts.

Jim has never met him yet feels able to make the sort of appallingly denigrating judgements in a post that has no discursive content but only contains foul insults.
I address a question to Joe Offer and other Mudcat adminstrators and ask them how far this man is allowed to go with such baseless, damagingly dangerous slurs on a public forum?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 03:24 PM

Yeah even handed as ever Vic
You seem to overcome yopur inability to intervene quite well when it suits
You should e ashaemed of youreslf as well, but like Bryan, I'm sure you're not
JIm Carroll

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 04:23 PM

I get it.

Theres some sort of angst going on.

but what the hell is all this about?

Where does Ewan MacColl and his biography come in?

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 05:00 PM

well i have tried in recent threads to divert the discussion back on topic asking jims opinion of the two biographies but to no avail

Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 06:12 PM

There's a lot of good and interesting information in this thread. Let's keep it that way. Personal invective is of little interest to anyone other than yourself. I don't care if you're trying to preserve your honor or whatever, it isn't of interest to the rest of us. We don't want to hear it. And from this point on, I'm going to delete anything that has animosity or squabbling in it.

It's.just.so.fucking.boring.....

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: keberoxu
Date: 17 Feb 18 - 06:36 PM

Joe, You RULE.

---

Thanks, but please don't respond to my message in the thread. It's better just to get back to the subject of the discussion. If you wish to discuss what I said, please contact me by personal message. Thanks.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:29 AM

"well i have tried in recent threads to divert the discussion back on topic asking jims opinion of the two biographies but to no avail"
Did you miss this Dick?
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:01 AM
I went to great length to not only give my opinion on the books but to point out there are no comparisons between the two - different talented people from different backgrounds
It really doesn't help the atmosphere here by repeating such requests when you have been given a response

"Where does Ewan MacColl and his biography come in?"
Some of the subjets touched on by Harker's book have been dealt with in depth Al - far too few in my mind, but discussing MacColl rationally is as discussing "what is folksong" - it has become virtually impossible to get beyond name changes and war records - if you don't believe me, go some of the "related threads" listed at the top of this one.
Pat and I gave interviews to Ben Harker willingly and looked forward to its publication with anticipation - it fell far short of our expectations, mainly due to the conclusions he reached
I don't think I'm speaking out of turn when I say Peggy felt the same.
I experienced working with MacColl - a life-changing experience, and Pat and I interviewed him at length - 20 tapes worth over a long period
Our object was not to get a repeat of the already covered biographical details but to explore in detail his approach to his art
I also acquired all the recordings of the Critics Group meetings - masses and masses of detailed work on folk song by a bunch of talented and enthusiastic people who were generous with their time and their abilities and who knew what they were about and were prepared to put themselves out in order to try and improve their own and other's understanding of the Folk-song genre and related subjects
I have spent several years digitising, listing and annotating those meetings - originally I hoped to make them more widely available, but, like Walter's recordings, I have come to the sad conclusion that there is no home for them in Britain, so they will end up with the MacColl family and as part of our own personl collection, wherever it is housed, which is a crying shame.
One of the constant problems I have had in working on the Critics material has been that it is so absorbing and inspiring that the documentary process gets slowed down to a standstill by being forced to listen in detail - not always helpful when indexing
I react, sometimes badly, when I hear accusations of what I know (from personal experience) to be unfair and inaccurate, often unbelievably spiteful and personal statements about Ewan, Peggy and the work of the Critics.
As far as I can see, today's revival needs all the inspiration it can get if British folk song is to survive beyond this present, ageing generation.

I agree totally with Joe's response - if there is blame to be meted out it is to be accepted by all responsible
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 04:38 AM

I have found the conversation about singing in different accents fascinating. Having spent most of my working life surrounded by many different nationalities, but mainly dominated by Americans for a considerable period, I have ended up with a polyglot type of accent that veers off subconsciously to mimic in part the person/s I am speaking too. My default accent is a kind of mid atlantic with a touch of Aussie. So does singing with a different accent a case of mimicry, affectation, or what? Some accents are extremely difficult to understand, the Geordie accent and some scottish accents in particular. At the end of the day does it really matter?
What is a person looking for from a folksong. Clarity of expression,
interpretation (whatever that may mean), delivery in the accent of the songs origin(if known) or what?
The over analysis of the who, what, why, when, where probably only applies to some, others just want to listen to the songs and music.
All types comprise the audience. I think sometimes this is forgotten.
Does an enthusiastic audience who happen to be drinking in a pub during a mixed session rank as second class folkies because they do not go to folk clubs. Do you even need to go to a folk club to appreciate folk? You tube offers a very comfortable alternative.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:18 AM

....'What is a person looking for from a folksong. Clarity of expression,
interpretation (whatever that may mean), delivery in the accent of the songs origin(if known) or what" absoluteley correct, when i play folk music in pubs no one gives a flying fart if i sing irish songs in my accent american songs in an american or english accent.
"As far as I can see, today's revival needs all the inspiration it can get if British folk song is to survive beyond this present, ageing generation."
fair cmment, but it will survive, there are many young singers and instrumentalists in the uk and in ireland, the uk scene will probably change, the venues will probably change it may be that the songs get given a different treatment, i do not see much wrong with thin liziie treatment of whiskey in the jar. neither do ihear much wrong with MacColls version of dirty old town or joseph taylors version of brigg fair they are imo all valid

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 05:31 AM

"Does an enthusiastic audience who happen to be drinking in a pub "
You are right of course Iains, but as with any art form, it is not just the audience or even the performer who has the say on what is important and what is not.
Some (most) of us came and still come from both sides - performer/listener and researcher
Your argument, if taken to its logical conclusion, would exclude ann researchers and documentors
Forums like this need to cater for both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 06:52 AM

Jim I have no argument that those that collect, analyse, interview, dissect etc etc.have a valid place. They all make a contribution for archiving material among a myriad of other functions.
However for folk to survive it is the audience that is crucial. Their level on interest in the medium will cover all levels from intricate dissection to just enjoying the song/music and ambience generated.
Certainly some include the multiple role of performer/listener/researcher/etc. but I think many more wander along for purely for the entertainment. Surely a broad church needs to be encouraged although obviously some venues will have a more focused/specialised approach (As is their perfect right) After all we still tolerate Morris Dancers!

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:33 AM

"However for folk to survive it is the audience that is crucial."
Of course it has, but to put one above the other just doesn't work, especially when you are talking about the survival of a genre that is rapidly disappearing from the public memory.
I doubt if anybody ever did just "wander in" to the music - song as apparently alien as for song needs to be promoted
The interest of our generation came mainly through a process - a rejection of what the machine had to offer, Jazz, Blues, Country and Western, American folk then finally tour home grown product - each shift was a conscious one
That just doesn't happen now, an extremely aggressive and all-pervading music industry gets to decide what is readily available - anything has either to be sought for or stumbled across
When our County Library put our Clare Collection on line it was a lifelong ambition realised, but the most important outcome was when the Council appointed two singers in residence to take the songs around local schools - last year the kids produced a CD of their singing.
All this took research and hard work - from the collecting, indexing, assembling and finally annotating the material.
I must have have given talks to around a dozen schools - it was common in London to here Joe Heaney's and Ewan's singing being described as sounding like 'Paki music"
It has to be far more abut winning hearts and minds than about just bunging it up for passers by to find.
Then there are the further implications, social national and historical aspects of the songs being made and passed on in the first place - all in need of reasearch
One of the hardest jobs in promoting our music lies in raising funds in order to do so - a group of us from different sections of the arts fought for years to try and get funding - it ended in dismal failure because neither the authorities not the established arts were interested - most were actively hostile to folk music.
When we moved to Ireland (in the middle of the 'Celtic Tiger' period, asking for funding was pushing on an open door, but even then you had to prove your interest went beyond having a good night out - you had to show you knew what you are talking about
You'll never get that in a thousand years if you can't even agree on what you mean about "folk"
Jim Carroll
Incidentally - U-tube audiences fill me with horror
Folk music and song is a manifestation of social interaction and the clubs were a suitable compromise on that
Once you remove that social aspect, you drain it of its life-blood

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Vic Smith
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 07:49 AM

One of the hardest jobs in promoting our music lies in raising funds in order to do so - a group of us from different sections of the arts fought for years to try and get funding - it ended in dismal failure because neither the authorities not the established arts were interested - most were actively hostile to folk music.

I will be able to react more fully when I hear the results of the current application to the Heritage Lottery Fund for a 6 figure funding of what we see as the vital work that Sussex Traditions are planning over the next three years. The application is very thorough and ambitious but there are very hopeful signs. More news as it emerges....

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 08:09 AM

Good luck with that Vic; It's sorely needed
I am reminded of the closure of the Leeds University Folklore Department when the head of department described the participants (Tony Green et al) as "tree-huggers"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Iains
Date: 18 Feb 18 - 10:27 AM

Strange that The British Council encourages UK music of all genres overseas while the indigenous vine withers. Totally irrational, but that is government I suppose.


http://music.britishcouncil.org/resources/uk-music-funding-and-support

A close relative of mine toddled around the Middle East and S. America for several years on paid musical "jolly" excursions.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Feb 18 - 11:51 AM

yes the problem with you tube audiences is people become iso;lated it is not proper socialising, or socialising as we knew it, that is partly what folk clubs are about socialisng. however you tube is an excellent way to learn instrument and vocal techniques, will fly guitar is a case in point

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

yes Ians a contrast to Ireland where the Government pours lrge quantities of money in to CCE.
Jim reckons CCE no longer has much influence on tradtional music, clearly not the opinion of the irish government.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:27 AM

"clearly not the opinion of the irish government."
The Irish Government, like most politicians, has no knowledge of traditional music whatever and no particular interest.
The fact that the the director of CCE, Labhras O Murchu (fondly referred to as Lab-Rat) is a politician, a member of the Irish senate, says all that needs to be said about the political support CCE gets
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 03:47 AM

It does not alter the fact that CCE is supported financially by te irish government, similiar bodies in the uk like efdss do not get the same funding.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:00 AM

"It does not alter the fact that CCE is supported financially by te irish government,"
Nor does it validate the crass, self destructive behaviour of CCE
Any charlatan can squeeze money out of ignorant politicians if they have enough influential friends
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:19 AM

I agree.
Class act is appropriate, how many other performers OR Songwriters would be discussed 30 years after their death,

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:20 AM

However no one is managing to do it for the EFDSS.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:25 AM

Furthermore i have only ever managed to get 100 euros from a TD, prior to an election it is not as easy as u think, I speak from experience HAVING RUN A FESTIVAL FOR 7 YEARS, WHAT IS YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THAT FIELD OR ARE YOU JUST GIVING AN OPINION NOT BASED ON EXPERIENCE

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:18 AM

"However no one is managing to do it for the EFDSS."
EFDSS has recieved money and Royal patronage on the basis of the personal friendship between its former Director, Douglas Kennedy - one of the reasons his son got off as lightly as he did
Neither this, nor the money CCE receives is a valid way of fund-raising for a cause
If it is going to mean anything, is has to be raised on the basis of the importance of the music - that way it will be guaranteed to be ongoing and wiull ascertain that it is spent properly (not for buying new orange hair-dye for the director!!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 06:55 AM

EFDSS DOES NOT RECIEVE ANYTHING LIKE THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY FROM THE UK GOVERNMENT AND WELL YOU KNOW IT.
JIM, ON WHAT BASIS THE MONEY IS GIVEN IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS
1.HOW IT IS USED AND
2 THE AMOUNT
HOW, AND WHO WOULD DECIDE ON THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MUSIC?
furthermore making snide remarks about peter kennedy gets us nowhere.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 07:02 AM

Not the tyime or the place Dick - nice to know that you regard criticism Kennedy's appalling behaviour as "snide" though
I only responded in order to try and revive the thread - been there - done that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM

A belated thanks to Dick and Vic for their kind comments. I've been rather caught up in folk club admin duties the last few days. As for being a "good performer", I aspire to competence.
I am a little worried by the suggestion that, in real life, I am a much nicer person than I would appear from what I say here. I really don't think I compare with Jim in that department. (I'm sure he's perfectly charming in person.) Not too keen on being in the same bracket as Keith of Hertford either.
Anyway, time has moved on and Jim seems to have found new targets for his rage.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 05:13 PM

kennedy in my opinion was a Curates egg, so Jim you are always complaining aboutpeople kicking Ewans Corpse yet you are happy to kick Kennedys corpse

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:54 PM

"Jim you are always complaining about people kicking Ewans Corpse "

Of all the strange things in this thread, this strikes me as the strangest. Let's just grant for the sake of discussion that every criticism of MacColl in this thread is spiteful and inaccurate. Still, why does the fact that MacColl is dead make it especially heinous?

MacColl was born in 1915. If he was alive, he'd be 102. He's SUPPOSED to be dead: To use a frame of reference I'm familiar with, he's as old as Brownie McGhee. He's 3 years younger than Lightning Hopkins and Woodie Guthrie. He's the same age as Bob Dylan's MOTHER, and Dylan is 77 this May.

Moreover, his corpse is not still warm: He's been dead for nigh unto 30 years. He's been dead longer than Amy Winehouse lived. He is long gone where he need no longer bear

. . . the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes.

He is beyond the reach of his detractors as much as, I don't know, Churchill or George Bernard Shaw, are beyond theirs.

He belongs to the ages. He can take it.

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 21 Feb 18 - 09:59 PM

Because he was Carroll's mate

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 06:44 AM

I think if Ewan was alive today his songwriting advice would be of paramount advice , I would happily listen to workshops or advice on songwriting by Ewan MacColl, he was IMO the best

Subject: RE: 2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Feb 18 - 07:22 AM

"why does the fact that MacColl is dead make it especially heinous?"
The "kicking" of anybody's corpse, long dead or otherwise, is a somewhat depraved act.
Constantly re-assessing or disputing their contribution to society is another matter altogether
I have been trying a long time now to det a discussion going on MacColl's work and his ideas because I believe them to be relevant to the survival of folk song - I don't care what people think of MacColl as n individual - I have my own memories for that
Each time the sunject comes up it degenerates into a slagging-match on topics that have no relevance whatever to his work and usually not to folk song
If you don't believe that, go open some of the listed threads above.
I used to believe this was a simple act of spite by people Ewan had upset one way or another - now I have come to the com=conclusion that it is a deliberate 'spoiler' technique to make sure his work is never discussed rationally - if this is not deliberate, that has been the effect
MacColl isn't the only subject to have been dealt with in this manner - go look up anything on 'Definition of folk song' - the same happens; slanging matches rather than rational discussion.
"Because he was Carroll's mate"
Thank you for making my point for me P
You really couldn't have timed it better from my point of view
Unless the folk movement grows away from this adolescent nastiness I fear all the work that has been done will be leftt for future generations to sort out - if it survives)
I hate to think how they will regard our behaviour
"yet you are happy to kick Kennedys corpse"
I refer only to what Kennedy did and what many people know him to have done
I say nothing now that I didn't say to his face on the few occasions that I met him - perhaps if others had defied his threats of legal action, it would not be necessary to deal with it now
Jim Carroll