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2007 Ewan MacColl Bio - Class Act

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The Sandman 11 Feb 18 - 05:11 PM
GUEST,Hootenanny 11 Feb 18 - 06:08 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 03:36 AM
The Sandman 12 Feb 18 - 03:40 AM
Kenny B (inactive) 12 Feb 18 - 09:43 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 10:06 AM
Iains 12 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 10:45 AM
Iains 12 Feb 18 - 12:02 PM
The Sandman 12 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM
Vic Smith 12 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 02:40 PM
Vic Smith 12 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM
TheSnail 12 Feb 18 - 03:59 PM
Jim Carroll 12 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM
The Sandman 12 Feb 18 - 04:07 PM
TheSnail 12 Feb 18 - 04:10 PM
The Sandman 13 Feb 18 - 01:57 AM
The Sandman 13 Feb 18 - 01:59 AM
Vic Smith 13 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM
Vic Smith 13 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 08:14 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 08:50 AM
Vic Smith 13 Feb 18 - 09:08 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 09:51 AM
TheSnail 13 Feb 18 - 10:05 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM
Vic Smith 13 Feb 18 - 11:21 AM
TheSnail 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM
TheSnail 13 Feb 18 - 12:15 PM
Iains 13 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM
The Sandman 13 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 01:33 PM
The Sandman 13 Feb 18 - 02:27 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM
TheSnail 14 Feb 18 - 08:47 AM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM
TheSnail 14 Feb 18 - 12:44 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 18 - 01:05 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 18 - 01:28 PM
Vic Smith 14 Feb 18 - 02:58 PM
Jim Carroll 14 Feb 18 - 03:16 PM
The Sandman 14 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM
GUEST,Cj 14 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM
Vic Smith 14 Feb 18 - 03:57 PM
TheSnail 14 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM
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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 05:11 PM

I have been out gigging, Jim, has dug himself a hole, he will soon be through to Australia.
Jim please take note of the first verse of this next song.
Sweetheart, I'm bidding you fond farewell
I would be yours some day
I'm bound for a new land, my fortune to try
And I'm ready to sail away

Far away in Australia
Soon will fate be kind
And I will be ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind

Oh, you can't leave me Jim Boy replied
I would not let you go
But I must leave you, he gently replied
If for only a while, you know

Far away in Australia
Soon will fate be kind
And I will be ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind

Now it's success or a failure
I will always be true
I'm proud in each day in a land far away
I've been choosing a home for you

Daily he waits at the old cottage gate
Watching the whole day through
Then one day a message from over the sea
And I'm hoping these words are true

Far away in Australia
Now us called the time
When I am ready to welcome at last
The person I've left behind


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 11 Feb 18 - 06:08 PM

"Are you so bereft of intelligent argument that you have to indulge in barrel scraping of this sort?"

Jim I have no wish to argue with you I see from the bitchy insulting replies that you make to about 99% of those that don't see things quite the way you do. It's a pointless excercise.

What I have done on several occasions is correct something that you have or somebody else has posted which you/they did not witness and I did. It's no big deal.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:36 AM

"Jim I have no wish to argue with you"
You don't argue Hoot, you are no different from those who make your statement and run away - you are every bit as abusive as I have been, I have certainly not been "bitchy" (a nasty, sexist term which needs to be left in the sexist Jurassic Park where it belongs) - I have returned like-with-like
I come here hoping for honest, open, freindly, vigorous discussion - an exchange of ideas - that's what forums like these are supposed to be about
"which you/they did not witness and I did"
Likewise
My experience is just as valid as yours; minbe is more up-to-date, it covers a much longer period than and it is more detailed as it is not based on interpretations from afar, but on a long-time association with MacColl and personal experience of his work and ideas, much of which I was able to put to the test in thirty years of recording traditional singers
Mac'Coll's arguments o folk song made sense when put to a litmus test
I believe folk song needs that type of thought at present
"I have no influence in the closing of threads"
I agree entirely Kenny - then why support the suggestion that you and the proposer are not involved with, should be closed?
Sorry - didn't understand your other two points
"Jim please take note of the first verse of this next song."
I certainly hope you live up to your promise in the first line Dick
"Sweetheart, I'm bidding you fond farewell"
You have my full permission to ignore your promise to be mine!!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:40 AM

"Whether you like the practice, you respect it - if you don't like it, stay away"Jim Carroll
that was exactly what i decided to do, along with a lot of others,however that does not mean IM NOT ENTITLED TO POINT OUT THE FLAWS IN THE POLICY OF THE SINGERS CLUB.
on the other hand people like Cyril Tawney went around folk clubs and spoke to singers and in a pleasant way and persuaded many to look at and research and sing songs from their own cultural background[ something that Tom Paley and Peggy were not doing lets face it, they were not from appalaschia,Cyril used a much more effective and less dictatorial approach, I know I was there, and Cyril spoke to me and persuaded me to do just that.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 09:43 AM

Jim
My sentence was
There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part in but formed opinions based on reading and media reports.

Your copy or copy and paste was
"There are many subjects that u comment on that you have never taken part "

I was agreeing with Iains & Vics suggestion to "move on" not close the thread did you not understand that?.

Do you understand what you read and do you read your posts critically before you post them or are you like politicians and answer the quiestion you think should have been asked?


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:06 AM

"something that Tom Paley and Peggy were not doing lets face it"
Can't speak for Tom - he wasn't a resident
MacColl and Seeger gave their home over to researchers to use their books and recordings - they held weekly meetings in their home for getting on ten years as a response to a request to take classes
Nobody else in the revival ever did that
They and other Critics members gave seminars all over the country - and spoke at schools and colleges whenever they were asked
The Group co-operated with some of Britain's finest actors to mak two series of albums of poems and folk songs aimed at children - Poetry and Song and Voices - 22 albums in all
The Singers Club held public talks on the subject of song and music
I do know Tom took instrumental classes
Very few other clubs did any of this and those who did were usually influenced by MacColl and Seeger - Manchester and Birmingham, to name two
If you ever say them appear in public you'll know that their song introductions were an education in themselves
My whole point here has been to get a discussion around the masses work Ewan left behind based on encouraging singers and non-singers to lift the corner and look at what lies beneath the songs we sing - I'm digitising around 200 tapes worth of recordings of the MacColl working with younger and less experienced singers
What planet do you and your meaningless Australian song live on Dick?
You are entitled to put up any flaw you believe exists in any club policy for discussion, just as I am entitled to give an opinion on it.
So far, you haven't come anywhere near what MacColl, Seeger, The Critics, or the Singers Club was about and you have shown about as much interest as mot of the other contributors here - reducing the discussion to "Jim, has dug himself a hole,"
In your dreams Dick
Perhaps you'd like to put your name on the petition to close thids thread?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:10 AM

I have followed many discussions on Ewan Maccoll with interest. I have made no contribution because I do not regard the man in any particularly positive light. He wrote some good songs. I do not care for his singing and he came across as an actor rather than performer, complete with affectations and convinced his way was the right way. As I did not know the man personally and thus was reluctant to make what would be a negative contribution. However the mighty carrol has spoken and I would hate to disappoint him.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 10:45 AM

"I would hate to disappoint him."
You don't Ian - I expected no less/more
"mighty carrol "
I come here in the hope of having a discussion on a subject I believe to be important - you come to close threads you obviously have no interest in and to present your 'spiteful child' persona
You've done one of those quite effectively
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:02 PM

It is not a discussion. It is a diatribe of frothing abuse to all who hold alternative views to your own.
First you whine I have not contributed, then you whine when I have.
If there are any children in the room it surely has to be you. Who is the idiot that keeps cleaning the spit off your dummy and handing it back?


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:03 PM

Can't speak for Tom - he wasn't a resident" he was a regular attendor stop being silly.
Far away in australia is not meaning less, do you really not understand the meaning of the song that an eight year old would understand
MY ABILTIES AS A SINGER AND PERFORMER ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION, and whatever they are do not prevent me from being a critic of a musical policy that was flawed and proscrptive.
I do remember Peggy Seeger complimenting me... not on my singing but on on my concertina playing when she came to Bury st edmunds folk club, which was satisfying because i rated her as a very good song accompanist, she clearly had a different opinion to you, and since i respect her as a performer that matters to me more than your opinion.   Both Ewan andPeggy.. again passed complimentary remarks about my singing when i did a support for them at leicester phoenix theatre., as i respected them as performers this was pleasing.
Jim you do not understand , i am criticising a policy not Ewan and Peggy as performers


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 12:56 PM

"I was agreeing with Iains & Vics suggestion to "move on"
If I have misunderstood your point, I apologise
It's a little difficult to know where to move on to when nobody is responding to arguments (except with personal abuse and self-promotion) except with yet more urban legends about somebody who has been dead for nearly three decades
Like the clubs I used to visit- I'm here for the music I've spent most of my life being entertained by, nothing else
Dick - I really have nothing more to say to you or your ego - go find somebody who is interested in your abusive self-promotion
"First you whine I have not contributed, then you whine when I have."
If you believe personal abuse is contribution we work from different dictionaries Iains
I have neither insulted, nor have I frothed or whined
In three short postings you have have done little else
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:20 PM

It is very difficult to be able to discuss things with a mindset that believes that writing:-
Dick - I really have nothing more to say to you or your ego - go find somebody who is interested in your abusive self-promotion.
and:-
I have neither insulted, nor have I frothed or whined
and believe that the two statements are compatible and not contradictory.
How can discussion be possible when we are faced with such inconsistent, logically opposite statements? Does making barbed comments with each post strengthen the impact of the points that are being made? If it is felt that Dick is only interested in promoting himself, might it not be more effective to enunciate the reasons for this belief rather than making a bald statement that about him that can only be regarded as insulting?

In my opinion, there has been a considerable amelioration in postings emanating from Ballydehob of late.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 02:40 PM

" really have nothing more to say to you or your ego "
Fair and even handed as ever Vic
Now try it in context
"and believe that the two statements are compatible and not contradictory. "
Like typos - a bit of pedantry goes a long way
Apart from not having to respond directly to arguments, what do you hope to achieve Vic
"amelioration"
Yeah
Gather your anti MacColl knockers while ye may - as the man said
A wordy post saying nothing
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:37 PM

Apart from not having to respond directly to arguments, what do you hope to achieve Vic
Fairness.
Exchanges that address previous points that are raised.
A willingness to accept that the opinions of others are valid.
The insertion of humour when things get too heavy.
Addressing ideas in a way that can be free of rancour.
Seeing others treated fairly without comments that belittle them being made.
Discussion
Logical progression of ideas.
Clarity of thought and the way it is expressed.

All of these things.

I am phrasing my words carefully here so as to avoid confrontation. I am reaching out to achieve purposeful exchange which is the goal of interchange of ideas.
It seems that all the post at 12 Feb 18 - 02:40 PM is directed to me, but what I am expected to make of Gather your anti MacColl knockers while ye may - as the man said?
How does Amelioration Yeah explain or advance things?
I'm really trying hard here to see what is behind Like typos - a bit of pedantry goes a long way so that it can be made clear how I should respond.
Please read this in the peace making way it is intended because at the moment nothing is being achieved.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 03:59 PM

Jim, Peggy Seeger says that you have inherited SOME of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament. If she is right (and you say she is) then you are probably doing more to harm his reputation than anyone else.
Just a suggestion, but before clicking submit, why not pause and ask yourself "Would Ewan say this?"


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:06 PM

"Jim, Peggy Seeger says that you have inherited SOME of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament."
And you are taking what Pegguy had to say about me out of context Bryan
I have spent a lot of time with Peggy over the last year or so and hse really has no problem with how we work and what we have achieved - she has actually put this in writing in The Living Tradition if you wish to confirm it
I really didn't want to reduce this to being about me

As one sided as ever Vic
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:07 PM

"English means never having to say "sorry".
Jim Carroll" 17 dec 07, quote
we live in a world of constant change, but here we are 10 years on and Jim Carroll doesnt change, ten years on and he is doing his best to keep up English Traditions, carry on Jim you are showing the world what a fine englishman you are a trusted defender of an English Traditions, never say Sorry.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 12 Feb 18 - 04:10 PM

It's not about you, Jim, it's about what you say. I am just suggesting that you stop and think before you click submit.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:57 AM

Apologies for thread drift but jims comment"English means never having to say "sorry" is Wide of the mark anyway but the first thing that springs to mind was The Queens   remarks here
She told guests from the northern and southern Irish communities: "It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all."

The remarks, at a dinner in Dublin Castle, former headquarters of British rule in Ireland before independence in 1922, came as dissident republicans staged a small but violent demonstration.

Opening her speech in Irish with "A Úachtaráin agus a chairde [president and friends]", the Queen spoke of the importance of forbearance and conciliation, "of being able to bow to the past but not to be bound by it", and of the many who have suffered the painful legacy of loss. Lord Mountbatten, her husband's uncle, was killed by the IRA off the west coast of Ireland in August 1979. She said: "To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy."

The Queen spoke also of increasingly strong bonds and values: "The lessons of the peace process are clear: whatever life throws at us, our individual responsibilities will be all the stronger for working together and sharing the load ... The ties of family, friends and affection are our most precious resource ... the lifeblood of partnership across these islands, a golden thread runs through all our joint successes so far and all we will go on to achieve."

The Irish president, Mary McAleese, said the Queen's visit marked a new chapter in relations between the two countries "that may still be a work in progress, but happily has also become a work of progress, of partnership and friendship".

McAleese said: "I am particularly proud of this island's peacemakers who, having experienced first hand the appalling, toxic harvest of failing to resolve old hatreds and political differences, rejected the perennial culture of conflict and compromised enough to let a new future in."


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:59 AM

And for the record, I happen to be someone who believes the royal family should be replaced, again apologies for thread drift


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 05:46 AM

As one sided as ever Vic
Jim Carroll

Again trying to phrase carefully and avoid provocation, there are no "sides" in my previous statement. I don't see myself being on any "side" and don't see myself a member of any group or gang. It was an attempt to advocate fairness, civility, clarity, consideration and respect for the opinions of others in postings. It was an attempt to move away from seeing demeaning comments made about others merely for expressing an opinion. If I have been attempting to do otherwise, please explain any objections to what I have been advocating in a lucid manner. I am not on any personal vendetta here. I am seeking at atmosphere where there can be a stimulating and interesting exchange of ideas where differing or opposing ideas and opinions can be made and received without derogatory responses.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 07:45 AM

"Again trying to phrase carefully and avoid provocation, there are no "sides" in my previous statement."
You carefully pint out my outburstts of bad temper and avoid the insults that caused them
Don'tt ever volunteer for Jury duty Vic
I'd comment on the relevance of an ironic comment I once made on Britain refusing to accept responsibility for the Empire - "English means never having to say "sorry" - and the effort that went ino digging it out but I'm sure you'd add that to your list
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:04 AM

Well, at least I tried.....


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:14 AM

"Well, at least I tried....."
Not hard enough Vic
You did exactly the same when Steve Gardham was slinging around his personal insults on the 'Roud Book' thread
It doesn't help the "atmosphere" in any way to single out just one culprit - that is taking sides
It's you people who have made this about me - I have attempted to stick to the subject of MacColl
As for the other accusations of "intransigence"
Hands up all those who have shifted their position one iota on this or the Rod book argument
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 08:50 AM

Whoops - another 'typo'
"Roud" book, of course
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 09:08 AM

You did exactly the same when Steve Gardham was slinging around his personal insults on the 'Roud Book' thread
It doesn't help the "atmosphere" in any way to single out just one culprit - that is taking sides


Ah yes! The Roud thread. That would be the thread where Jim Carroll was insulted on 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM when it was written -
you're a doddery old fool, and very few here respect your views.

and I responded straight away by posting
This is a very unhelpful comment and lowers yourself to the main perpetrator of insults on this thread. and I followed it with a request that this insult be removed - which it duly was.
I dislike such rude insulting comments and frequently react to them, sometimes in the thread, sometimes in PMs, sometimes by informing the moderators.
Please accept that the way I have been challenging your comments is not a personal vendetta.... but it isn't going to stop me doing so when I consider that you are out of order.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 09:51 AM

"That would be the thread where Jim Carroll was insulted on 09 Jan 18 - 04:18 AM when it was written -"
You forgot the "self promoter" ad "attention seeker" and the rest of the diatribes Vic
It was after these that your one sided reprimands came
Enough of this - it's interfering with the ghoulish MacColl kicking ritual
Those who quote Peggy might like to recall the time she castigated those who attacked her dead husband "who is no longer around to defend himself"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:05 AM

Jim, Dick prodded this thread back into life back in January with a, perhaps, contentious remark about MacColl. You did not contest what he had said, you attacked him personally.

When Hootenanny raised some old row by asking for an explanation of why you had called him dishonest, you responded by calling him "A dyslexic, a megalomaniac and a typo-stalker - three for the price of one!"

You set the tone.

As for the other accusations of "intransigence"
That came from Peggy Seeger and a couple of days ago you seemed to wear it with pride. Out of context? I quoted the whole paragraph and gave a link to the letter in Living Tradition.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 10:46 AM

"you attacked him personally."
Because it's a long standing practice of his Bryan
Dick reached his height when he threatened physical violence if ever I came into his home territory
Enough is enough with some behaviour, as far as I am concerned
Hoot deanded an answer he had already been given about half a dozen times and when I stopped responding he kept it up - stalking, as far as I'm concerned
In both cases, the "tone" had been long set
"That came from Peggy Seeger and a couple of days ago you seemed to wear it with pride."
And I still do - the whole quote, that is - you choose to concentrate on the "intransigent" bit
"is possible that they have inherited some of Ewan's intransigence and argumentative temperament (that's the way things go?) but there is no doubt that their work in the folksong world has been invaluable and dedicated. Most of the collectors who've done that have had a kind of tunnel vision, without which their work would not have been as productive. They stuck their necks out and their heads are getting chopped off. They are in good company."

I ask again - how many here have moved one iota from their original position on this or the Roud book thread
I have no problem with those who stick to their guns except when they use other people doing the same as a weapon
Somewhat two-faced in my book
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:21 AM

In both cases, the "tone" had been long set
But people, not just me, are saying that a rude tone is objectionable and we all need to move on. The fact that is 'long set' doesn't justify it; they are looking for a new approach where posters can concentrate on expressing their opinions without having their opinions scorned or put down. Why not start afresh now? Let's write what we believe and let a variety of opinions stand without recourse to negativity.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM

I'll leave most of that.

Your style of argument is never going to move anyone one iota from their original position because you don't present an argument. You state THE TRUTH and respond extemely aggressively to anyone who disagrees with you.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 11:29 AM

"But people, not just me, are saying that a rude tone is objectionable and we all need to move on. "
Yes we do Vic - so stop ignoring your favourites
Personally, I no longer care too much what you think of me - I jut wanted to prick your 'neutral' bubble
If you want to comment - make it a general one
"Why not start afresh now?"
Absolutely
Some of you might start by responding to what I have put up about Ewan rather than digging up more urban myths
Maybe it might be worth discussing one of the comments MacColl made in a six-month series of interviews we did with him in 1978/79
"I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:15 PM

Some of you might start by responding to what I have put up about Ewan rather than digging up more urban myths

I understood this thread was about 'Class Act: The Political and Cultural Life of Ewan MacColl' by Ben Harker not about your remniscences. Lot's of people have said things about MacColl. What makes your opinions more important?

"I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"
MacColl

And you still don't understand why some people got pissed off with him?

(Actually, I quoted more context than your quote in red.)


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Iains
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

""I used to think that Traditional song would never die as a performed art; now I am not too sure
It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song"

I find it hard to believe anyone could actually make such statements and believe them. You would need some ego and level of conceit to pontificate in such a way.
It rather puts me in mind of the BBC radio broadcasts of earlier days where the announcer would be compelled to be in evening dress to talk into a microphone. Totally divorced from the real world.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 12:55 PM

"Lot's of people have said things about MacColl. What makes your opinions more important?"
Who said it was and what's that got to do with urban myths?
"And you still don't understand why some people got pissed off with him?"
When we have to put our archive in Limerick to attempt to get Walter's recordings out to the public and when we have to take a gamble on whether we will come home from a folk song having heard a folk song - it makes sense to me
Just read the viciousness when 'What is folk song' comes up on this forum, or count the number of complaints about feeling not welcome when you sing an unaccompanied songs
How about the description of "elitism" when you suggest a basic standard, or the defence of crib-sheets?
Go count the number who walked away from the scene when standards took a nose-dive and the choice was taken away
Your somewhat self-satisfied - "if you want to hear a good, well-sung folk song come to our club" summed the complacency for me Bryan.

You aren't really suggesting that all's well on the folk scene after all that has disappeared are you, Bryan?
"(Actually, I quoted more context than your quote in red.)"
Then why have you and others concentrated on the out-of-context "intransigence" as if I was the only one to display such a characteristic

Incidentally, this was part of a letter Peggy sent to The Living Tradition after she had moved to Nort Carolina after Ewan's death
"Ewan MacColl was one step nearer to being a folksinger than I; having been brought up in a Scots community in Salford. He is a man who is a perfect example of the old saying "stick your neck out and someone will chop your head off". I didn't know, until after he died, just how many enemies and ex-post-facto critics we had made. WE. Please remember that he and I were in this together and you can now aim your missiles at someone who is still here and who is quite articulate on the matter. Pity more folks didn't have the courage and the knowledge to talk with him while he was alive. He was actually an interesting, approachable person and was happy to talk to anyone who approached with a less-than-hostile attitude. I learned so much from those years.... and, of course. I am biased! I am also fed up with people who criticise him with only hearsay and second (third, fourth, umpteenth) knowledge on which to base their opinions."
Sums all this up for me perfectly
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM

"Dick reached his height when he threatened physical violence if ever I came into his home territory" please find this quote , i do remeber something on these lines which was meant as a joke, however there no emoticons on this forum to make it clear


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 01:33 PM

"please find this quote ,"
We've been through this several times Dick - noot by me
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:27 PM

well come on lets have the quote, so you claim i threatened you phsically once i say it wasmeant as a joke , you however have consistently insulted people on this forum over and over, it is a shame because you have a lot to offer ,you have been helpful to people on this forum passing on info on all kinds of folk related topics, but your hasty temper diminishes your helpfulness


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Feb 18 - 02:34 PM

"you however have consistently insulted people on this forum"
I give as good as I get Dick - though some people choose to ignore that fact
I've never threatened anybody
Go away - finished with dialogues with you
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 08:47 AM

".... What makes your opinions more important?"
Who said it was

You did.

and what's that got to do with urban myths?
Haven't a clue.

From what I have heard, Topic rejected you recordings of Walter Pardon because they weren't of sufficient quality to do him justice and they had other sources.
You can hear unaccompanied traditional songs at many clubs in the UK if you'd care to visit, not just ours. We don't impose standards on our floor singers. Some clubs do to the point of not having any at all on guest nights. That doesn't strike me as a folk club, more like a concert but each to their own. I would rather people didn't use crib sheets but I'm going to encourage them not to rather than drive them from my door.

Go count the number who walked away
I can't Jim, they aren't here. You're the only one I know about. I can only count the ones who stayed and stuck with what they believe in. Some of them are on this thread.
You don't feel that calling me self-satisfied and complacement might not be insulting?

You aren't really suggesting that all's well on the folk scene after all that has disappeared are you, Bryan?
That wasn't the question and is far too big a subject to go off into here. The point was that MacColl said "It seems that the folk clubs have fallen into the hands of people who neither understand nor like folk song. Do you honestly not see that the people that was directed at (basically everyone involved in the UK folk scene at the time) might be offended by that? MacColl said it forty years ago and you've been saying it ever since.

Then why have you and others concentrated on the out-of-context "intransigence"
It wasn't out of context, I quoted the entire paragraph including everything Seeger said about you. You were lambasting people for not taking part in reasoned discussion when you totally refuse to do so yourself and even Seeger describes you as intransigent and argumenative and Ewan possibly even more so.

Incidentally, this was part of a letter Peggy sent to The Living Tradition
I know, Jim. I quoted from it and gave a link to it. Here it is again.
https://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/edtxt39.htm

She also said "By the way, I'm just finishing up a book of his songs. 200 of them. 'The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook' (Music Sales, autumn 2000). Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner. Information is on my website: www.pegseeger.com.
I imagine you have that book, why not give it a read?


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

"I imagine you have that book, why not give it a read?"
Read it Bryan - I'm sure you don't mean this bit
Jim Carroll
The tributes feel good -the degree awarded to Ewan after his death by the University at Salford, the tree planted in his honour in Russell Square in London, the plaque placed in Salford near Coburg Street (which has now vanished), the letters I get, the requests for his songs, the enemies who will always be there for both earned and unearned reasons, our mutual friends with whom I am still in touch . . .
Coda
I love Ewan MacColl and I miss him daily, even though it’s twelve years since he died and I now have a new partner. Writing this book has been hard for me. I shared so many of my best days with him. He filled my life and our house with ideas and singing and if there is anything about him that I miss more than anything else it is the sound of that dark chocolate tenor . . . and waiting for him to haul up another creation from that fountain that was capped only by death. The songs in this book- axes and scalpels, war cries against war, silk purses and cleverly wrought sow’s ears—are now as surely his as they are yours. They cannot be taken from him as were his beloved Theatre Workshop and the Radio-Ballads.
Ewan: This book is my last material gift to you, from your companera who wants it to be known that whoever, whatever you really were, you did manage to become the best part of what you wanted to be.
Peggy Seeger North Carolina, 2001

I replied to the rest of your points, but the message did not get sent = it's happening aa lot with this forum
I'll send it again if I decide to be arsed replying to points I've answered a dozen times in the past
It really doesn't seem woth the effort


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 12:44 PM

It's not which bits I mean, it's which bits Peggy Seeger meant when she said "Those of you who have followed or partaken in this controversy might find my long critique of him as a person and an artist enlightening. It won't be what you expected from the person who was his lover and working partner.
Doesn't seem to fit the brief bits you've quoted.

The rest of my points go unchallenged. Good.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:05 PM

"Doesn't seem to fit the brief bits you've quoted."
That was Peggy's dedication to Ewan and hius work - perhaps you can enlighten me on the bits I missed
"The rest of my points go unchallenged. Good."
You really are the pits, aren't you
I've explained what happened to my posting - much easier, (if not particularly honest) to pretend I have no answers
For the record - Topic did not "reject" our recordings as such - they decided they didn't want to do what we wished to - give an in-context picture of Walter rather than just a collection of songs
The recordings were, as all our recordings are, "kitchen quality" with ticking clocks - at no time have we ever aimed at putting our recordings out commercially - not what we did.
They did suggest that, as some recordings were made when Walter was getting on in years, perhaps it didn't show him at his best - probably true, but again, not the point of our involvement in the project
It's somewhat snide of you to concentrate on the recording quality - just as you concentrated on Peggy's suggestion of my(and Ewan's "intransigence" while ignoring her qualification of that statement
As I said before, I have no problem with her suggestion in that (ignored) context, particularly when the comparison was with the feller she wrote about in the book extract I have just put up   
Now - how about all those bits I missed Bryan - won't hold my breath though
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 01:28 PM

Maaaaaybe it was this bit I missed Bryan

Appendix III The Critics Group And The British Folk Song Revival
In 1968, Ewan wrote:
If any single event can be said to have been instrumental in launching the British folk music revival it was the BBC?s broadcasts in 1952 of the series of radio programmes known as Ballads and Blues. Prior to these programmes, the emphasis had been on North American folk songs. The knowledge that there existed in Britain a huge corpus of exciting traditional songs and ballads was confined to ; mere handful of individuals. By presenting English, Scots and Irish songs in an historical and social context, these programmes transformed the situation overnight and triggered what was to become known as the folk song revival, the most extraordinary bout of public music-making Britain had ever known. It was the nineteenth-century industrial folk songs that made the first impact. These songs evoked an immediate response from working-class audiences throughout Britain, particularly among young people. Soon scores of new, young singers appeared on the scene and the audience began to reflect other class orientations
Since those early days the revival repertoire has been extended to include pastoral songs and ballads, urban broadsides, forebitters (recreational songs of the seamen), shanties (work songs of the seamen), regional songs, contemporary songs in the folk idiom and political and educational songs.
The bedrock on which the revival stands is the folk song club movement. At the present time, the number of these clubs is variously estimated at figures ranging from 800?1000, with a minimum membership of about 750,000. Almost from the very beginning of the revival there has raged a debate on the definition of folk music, a debate which (in its simplest form) has been reduced to a struggle
11, Peggy adds:
In actual fact, Ewan was the instigator, the facilitator and the person who held the group together. He poured all his training from Theatre Workshop into the group and worked like a demon when The Festival was on each year. He had no Joan Littlewood to take his script and bring it alive?he did that himself, training the singers into actors and sitting each night taking notes to bombard us all with at the end of the performance. The members of the group proved themselves worthy of the task and of the scripts. They all had 9-to-5 jobs (which in reality are 7-to-7 jobs), and everyone poured their All into the common cause. Ewan was _ a brilliant if tyrannical teacher and he and I learned and developed along with everyone else. I took over the teaching of accompaniment techniques, sightreading, script typing and duplicating, stage managing and general organisation. We carried many of these techniques into our songwriting and concert work after the group broke up.
By the time it dispersed in 1971, the Group had said hello and goodbye to three or four dozen members. Among them were: Frankie Armstrong, Bob Blair, Brian Byrne, Bobby Campbell, Jim Carroll, Alistair Clare, Aldwyn Cooper, Ted Culver, Jenny and Tony Dunbar, John Faulkner, Richard Hammerschlag,Richard Humm, Allan and Maggie Ives, Luke Kelly, Donneil Kennedy, Enoch Kent, Sandra Kerr, Hamish MacColl, Gordon McCulloch, Pat MacKenzie, Jim and Sally O?Connor, Charles Parker, Brian Pearson, Mike Rosen, Buff Rosenthal, Dave Smith, Suzannah Steel, Dennis Turner, Jack Warshaw . . . and many others.

Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 02:58 PM

I have only just followed the link that Bryan posted on 11 Feb 18 - 06:05 AM to a letter from Peggy Seeger to Living Tradition. The date is not given but it was when she was living in Asheville, North Carolina. Can anyone let me know the date? Bryan only quoted the last part of the letter but reading all of it, I must say that I was impressed by it for a number of reasons. It is well written and it sticks to the matter in hand; it is open and honest. She does not attempt to cover up things where she considers that she was in the wrong or that she made mistakes. It comes over as a truthful, straightforward and sincere
I can imagine that it was not an easy thing to write, but when someone is prepared to admit faults and regret them, it somehow manages to make the reader regard any claims of achievements as being equally free from bluster or falsehood.


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:16 PM

"Can anyone let me know the date"
It was written at the end of the nineties, if I remember rightly
It was part of the response to a letter/article I wrote entitled 'Where Have All the Folksongs Gone' so it should be searchable under that title
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM

none of the above alters the fact that i was criticising a flawed club policy,not criticising Ewan as a performer, what does Jim do ..he replies with piffle about me threatening him, tell you what Jim take me to court about this threatening behaviour,you will be a laughing stock, further more if i was to threaten anyone, which i have no intention of doing it of whatever size it would certainly not be a small ginger haired pipsqueak or an old man


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: GUEST,Cj
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:44 PM

It’s a good letter, EM comes out of it well, as does JC. Certainly paints a more welcoming version of events than JC’s more spiked defence. I may just buy that book of hers. And dare I say, the MacColl biography (not) being discussed here...


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: Vic Smith
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 03:57 PM

The post at 14 Feb 18 - 03:43 PM. Come on, Dick we are trying to move away from insults - all of us


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Subject: RE: New Ewan MacColl Biography
From: TheSnail
Date: 14 Feb 18 - 04:38 PM

I've explained what happened to my posting
You also said I'll send it again if I decide to be arsed
You still haven't.

You're right, it wasn't just the recording quality. Your failure to cooperate was also part of it.
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/articles/pardon2.htm

I haven't got the book. I'm relying on what you can tell me and what the quote you put up from Peggy Seeger says. What you have quoted from the book is very interesting but doesn't seem to constitute the "long critique of him as a person and an artist" that she says will not be "what you expected". I am relying on your honesty to tell us what the book says.


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