What is Morris Dancing for?

Subject: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 08:36 PM

Not a question I'd ever really considered but passed on from a customer by a barman in the Vine at Tenterden at the beginning of the England v Australia singaround (those present will understand).

One possible answer from Midchuck on another thread -

They're all crazier than shithouse rats anyway. It isn't supposed to make sense.

Any ideas?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 08:38 PM

To work up a thirst... which is why most dance-outs are at or very near pubs!

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 08:43 PM

Morris is lost in antiquaty (sp) but its good excercise and as Bernard says , it DOES work a thirst up . And it makes as much sense a Cricket !

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: mg
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:04 PM

I thought it was to help encourage the continuation of the human race through subtle symbolism and insure good harvests and enough barleycorn for the brewing...mg

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,booklynrose
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:13 PM

Wasn't Morris dancing developed by an orthopedic surgeon who needed business? The lively tunes and friendly atmosphere tempt more people to injure their knees.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:21 PM

Some say it goes back to the Neanderthals and their knuckle, dragging rituals where they danced and pulverized their excrement into the soil.

In Chicago we know that it is a tribute dance to the Grant Park police riots of 1968 where the police force clubbed and gassed protesters against the VietNam War.

Art

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Fred Maslan
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

Check out Terry Pratchett's "Lords and Ladies"

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Oct 07 - 09:54 PM

That is one of many questions that it is better not to ask--

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 12:11 AM

It's for keeping the men out of the way whilst the women make out with the jolly ploughboys.

All I need now is a jolly ploughboy, although I'm not fussy, he doesn't have to be jolly!

It may well have been about fertility rites but after consumption of all that beer and the damaging of the knees and other body parts, it's hardly worth it.

LTS

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 02:18 AM

People really enjoy it. It doesn't have to be for anything.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 02:20 AM

Doing

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 02:22 AM

Mainly for fun, in my humble opinion.

Derived from the Moors of Spain, called Moriscos. A type of dance in fancy costumes was en vogue in the Renaissance; its tradition now revived by a group of students at the Munich Technical University.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,Ruston Hornsby
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM

Be careful - "Morris Dancing" is used as an umbrella term for different and generally unlinked regional dance traditions with totally different origins and reasons. People usually seem to be thinking about Cotswold Morris when they make posts about it and go on to make make sweeping generalisations based on that tradition! But what is it for? What is singing for? What is playing instruments for? The world wouldn't stop turning if we didn't do it, but it would be a duller and less colourful place.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:02 AM

The evidence strongly suggests that what we call "Cotswold" escaped from the courts of the rich 500 odd years ago and spread from the south east. It people and not exclusively men, used it for fun and money making ever since.

This understanding also suggests that Northwest is the son of Cotswold.

Stands back and waits.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:17 AM

All I need now is a jolly ploughboy, although I'm not fussy, he doesn't have to be jolly!

In fact he doesn't even have to be a plough boy.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:23 AM

Or daughter - Les, or daughter.......

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:26 AM

Some jolliness would be OK some of the time.
Ability to plough or even dance Morris optional.
But a brain and power to use it and recognise that I too have one . . .
That would be novel.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: The PA
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:34 AM

Pardon my ignorance but why 'Morris'? Who was/is he/she/it?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:39 AM

some earlier answers, possibly related

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 04:41 AM

Morris is a term dreamed up by Ashley Hutchings for marketing his wares at former Safeway supermarkets.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Micca
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:13 AM

Good One Diane, subtle and clever, for a Monday morning!!! me hats off to you,

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:22 AM

Well, Folkie Dave, you have a point, it is getting more and more difficult to find a ploughboy in this day and age... and in the middle of London to boot...

Now if it were a Rentboy I was looking for, they're often queueing 3 deep around the corner by the Astoria.

Diane - you too have a point but let's face it, would it be his brain you'd be using?

LTS

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:24 AM

Thanks Dave,daughters, I had slipped into a mind set.

How many "Morrismen" would dance with a mixed country dance display side? Remember them?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:42 AM

Remember them? I was in one at school!!

Amazing how many boys wanted to join when they heard we were learning to strip and how many boys left disappointed when they found out it was stripping the willow!

As far as I'm aware, no-one in my school went on to become a morris dancer except for my occasional forays into the tradition.

LTS

LTS

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 06:27 AM

I was dissapointed when I found out it was ' stripping the willow ' and not stripping the widow.

eric

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,LTS pretending to work
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 06:52 AM

Bet Willow was relieved!

LTS

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:19 AM

Am I starting to identify an underlying sexual message here?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Bainbo
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:45 AM

Les - I don't know what you mean. There's nothing underlying about it at all. Pretty upfront if you ask me - which is only right, given its (alleged) links with fertility.

As for me, just like other contributors have hinted, it was about having a good time, moving to the music, feeling part of a unit, when you knew exactly where to go and how to get there, with the certainty that your mates would all be in the right place when you got there. A bit like playing for a top-class football team, but with better music.

Then there's be the singarounds and the drinking afterwards. (On the occasions when the drinking came first, the feeling of perfect timing sort of dissipated.)

We'd go round with a collecting hat, and people seemed to assume it was for charity and chuck money in. We felt no guilt in spending it at the bar. Well, we'd never claimed it was for any particular cause, had we? It wasn't our fault if they jumped to the wrong conclusions.

So a, I've said in a previous thread, it's about having a good time, and maybe giving people some pleasure. And maybe showing off a bit. Keeping traditions alive comes pretty far down the list of priorities.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:02 AM

1) stick = mock fighting - see Olympik Games & backsword & shin kicking etc - Yoemen practising, hand eye co-ordination - every Lord of the Manor had to provide fit men to fight - possibly a legacy from that.
2) Establishing rights to hunt etc - eg Abbots Bromley, illiterates (most people at one time) had to establish what and where to hunt, like walking (beating) the bounds of a town to define where they were - the locals all had visibility of where and who, once a year. Abbots Bromley horns have been carbon dated to 1065 - discuss.
3) Demonstrating how fit you were on May Day when the hiring fairs were taking place. Best dancers, fittest workers.
4) Black Faces - to hide identity - &/or referrences to Moorish - dancers would receive donations (food, money etc) like in the winter at Christmas but it was a form of begging, infra-dig.
5) Morris = Moorish or moorish from "mores and customs". tick both of the above.
6) Handkerchieves - ??? Bloody noses? see mock fighting.
7) Because it is what the English do - OK?
8) There is no one reason unless you ask only one person.

You might as well ask why line dancing
1) to give Morris dancers something to laugh at.
2) so that lone dancers can get up when they want to dance and not feel like a wallflower &/or have to run the gauntlet of waiting to be asked and then fielding suggestions based on a fairly obvious agenda.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 08:21 AM

Bainbo,

"So a, I've said in a previous thread, it's about having a good time, and maybe giving people some pleasure. And maybe showing off a bit. Keeping traditions alive comes pretty far down the list of priorities."

I am with this, seems true and was certainly what Heddington were up to on that famous day.

Mr Red,
I have heard all the stuff and it sounds quite plausible. A bit short any evidence perhaps?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: RTim
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 09:04 AM

To bring the community together

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Mr Red
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM

Blacking-up is always reckoned to have been used to hide identity / begging (and still is!!!) and hiring fairs/Mayday is well documented according to my informants.

If you want evidence dating back to 1065 - all I can offer is the carbon dating and a brochure written by Staffordshire Tourism. They are Reindeer horns and reindeer were extinct 400 years before that. Staffs is on the Trent river system which faces Scandanavia which begs a question or two - The same brochure claims documentary evidence of dancers going out at Michaelmas or Whit or somesuch in 1346 (ish).

the sport of Backsword was banned sometime after the Olympik Games. It was considered dangerous. What they did to replace it is pure speculation.

"mores" was suggested to me as a "just as plausable explanation/derivation as Spanish Moors" - I took it that either or both were in the frame.

Now dare we mention ladies dancing 180 years ago (as well as during WW1)? If anyone wants documentary evidence for that Rob Scrase (Folkwrite) is only too happy to find institution to house the book he has that is such a document. He told me those he approached said "Don't Ring us we'll Ring you" effectively.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 01:10 PM

Morris dancing doesn't have to be for anything. People do, people enjoy it. It's real. Deal with it.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 01:23 PM

All those mixed team Morris weekends - what happens there then?

Probably best not to ask.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM

"What is Morris Dancing for?"

Because he's compelled to dance. It's in his blood. The artistic necessity to express himself overtakes all other events and he just goes ahead and dances.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 01:31 PM

Because Morris music seems really screwed up without it.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Darowyn
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 03:13 PM

The purpose of Morris Dancing in modern times is to preserve Morris Dancing.
The purpose of wasps is to produce more wasps.
Wasps are annoying too.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM

Check out "The history of morris dancing, 1438-1750", by John Forrest, or "History and the morris dance from its earliest days to 1850" by John Cutting (father of Andy)- both available from Amazon.

Forrest danced Cotswold with Datchet and Oxford University morris (also danced for a while with Earlsdon before he emigrated to the USA), John Cutting with Herga and Grand Union (the Cotswold Grand Union based in Denham, that is).

I met and chatted to Terry Pratchett at Bob and Julia Hawkes' wedding in Saffron Walden in 1992 when I was dancing with, squire of, Flowers of May, so read "Lords and Ladies" with great interest....

Kitty

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:21 PM

Some of the figures for the dance "kick my arse", otherwise known as the Dolphinholme dance or the "Old man's dance", are in the book of Kells.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST,KERRYPOLKAWOMAN.
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:24 PM

Morris dancing is a long practised symbolic salute to the introduction of golf to The U.K.At that time King Arthurs men , during times off duty , mid term breaks etc yoused to lie in the long grass watching with puzzlement the antics of the then gentry trying to putt their balls in to small holes in the soil.One day,after pitching her ball the lady captain,who was then a leading a womens libber , suddenly burst into a spontaneous sequence of rhymitic gyrations and body contortions and began immediately to disrobe from the wsist downwards and ran with unprecendeted haste to the nearest ladies locker cave." I HAVE BEEN STUNG ,I HAVE BEEN STUNG MOST UNKINDLY " she bellowed.Pray tell Madam e"nquired the green keeper and where were thou stung your ladyship ?----between the first

and second hole she bruskly declared.If your ladyship pleases I always thought your stance was too wide,-- he said.Hence the beginnings of Morris dancing it was such a source of glee and bemusement to the beholding Knights they decided at their next AGM to re-enact this peculiar behaviour and an out of tune fiddle was introduced to substitute the sound of a stinging bee and the bells were tied to the trouser legs to prevent any temptation to putt their balls into holes in the soil-- the gingle of which was a giveaway alert to the observers .wasps and bees have purpose too !
"

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 05:41 PM

Why is this turning into a BS thread? (anyone seen Hammersmith recently?) Sorry, but if you're taking the piss, you're just revealing your lack of experience...

K

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Greg B
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 06:07 PM

Morris dance is also used as to give certain folks an excuse to
get all huffy and take themselves far too seriously (which, when
you watch it seems rather ironic, now doesn't it)?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: RTim
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM

There are some people who know about Morris dance - And there are some who want to know about Morris dance - And there are some who only want to take the piss out of Morris dance, and never miss an opportunity!
I would NEVER write what I think of Blue Grass Music, and if a Thread comes up - I ignore it!
Why can't people do that were Morris is concerned!!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: melodeonboy
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 07:22 PM

Strange question. What is any dancing for?

Apart from not being a means of getting off with someone, doesn't it exist for pretty much the same reason that all traditional dance exists?

I'm reminded of a rather old joke:

Why does Peter West wear plastic pants?

Because he likes to come dancing! Boo-boom!

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 08 Oct 07 - 10:01 PM

Humor is humor is humor.
That's all I intended. I don't think much of all the banjo jokes,
BUT some of them ARE actually very funny. In these hard times, I'll take all the funning I can get!

Art

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:03 AM

Actually, in amongst the amusing tidbits there are some little gems of info - I didn't know reindeer were extinct 400 years before the Norman Invasion of Britain.... hope Santa has had his cryogenically prepared.

LTS

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:01 AM

In discussions here about songs, people have often drawn attention to the context in which old songs, traditional songs if you like, have survived. Context is equally important for social dance and even more so for that which we call morris.

Northwest looks different to Cotswold because it evolved in an urban / industrial context in the 18 / 19 century. From what did it evolve? It was associated with Rushcarts but I understand that many Rushcarts did not have Morris dancers and that Rushcarts pre-date Northwest Moris. The most obvious explanation is that Northwest evolved from something like Cotswold. It is an explanation not often heard in North west circles.

People dance morris now for all the reasons given above. Some people, often men, seem to need to offer some kind of serious explanation for what they do and so they call upon "pre-christian, pagan, fertility" history to justify dancing with other men in public.

The fact that almost no coherent body of evidence exists bothers few. Perhaps no coherent body will ever be identified. People who have spent serious amounts of time searching for evidence, almost to a man woman and child, find little or no evidence for the "pre-christian, pagan, fertility" idea and much for the "escaped from the courts of the rich" idea. Not as sexy though is it?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

And moorish, Les. Don't forget that - it's been used to apologise for a multitude of sins.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 03:30 AM

True enough Ruth, I like the idea, quite often put forward, that it was called Doris Dancing but the name was changed to protect my mother.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

Earlier in the year whilst telling stories at the Morpeth Gathering I paused for breath to take in the sight of Bert Hunter doing some solo steps with the Hexham Morris. I know nothing about Morris (apart from the handful tunes I might still play on my whittle-an-dub) but found myself quite hypnotised by the grace, agility & elegant masculinity of Bert's dancing. As someone pointed out: "It takes real strength to dance as beautifully as that."

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 05:31 AM

much for the "escaped from the courts of the rich" idea. Not as sexy though is it?

Les, I think it is quite a sexy idea - a bunch of morris men trapped in the courts of the rich and then with one single caper they were free.

Much sexier than a bunch of old pagan priests and priestesses with their human sacrifices.

Dave

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 08:44 AM

Dave, I see what you mean ............... I believe other websites can meet such needs!

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Jacob B
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 10:31 AM

I recall reading an article in which a dancer from one of the traditional Morris sides was quoted as saying, "Don't believe all this rubbish about ancient mystical traditions. We just do it for a bit of luck!"

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 11:09 AM

that business of the doctor - that's old isn't it - like from The Mummers Play?

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 12:56 PM

weelittledrummer

that business of the doctor

Can't recall any doctors in Morris (bank managers, computer programmers, solicitors, even a policeman but I can't remember a doctor). The Doctor in Mummers' Plays is said to come from the Commedia dell'arte.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:10 PM

We used to have three in our side, but only one was a medic.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: TheSnail
Date: 09 Oct 07 - 01:45 PM

Ah yes, I was thinking quacks. I'd forgotten academics; dozens of those.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 01:05 AM

There seems to have been a spelling error in the original post. Surely it should have read "What is Morris dancing Four?" - though it could equally well have been "What is Morris dancing Five?"

The answer to both questions is: "It's what happens outside the pub if the Bagman fails to persuade at least six of the idle b*****s to turn out, and the rest have to improvise."

Fortunately, this hasn't happened very often with our lot - though sometimes I've been left standing outside the pub for what felt like a very long time, waiting for the cavalry to arrive.

Mike Sutton (Ex)Bagman, Hexham Morrismen

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 04:55 AM

I seem to remember seeing a morris side that had a doctor character(black face, stethoscope and bag) who proclaims 'this man is dead!' and calls on a pretty girl from the crowd to revive him with a kiss. And i feel sure I've seen variations on the theme.

I've never actually been involved, so maybe I've got it wrong.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM

That'l be Morris-Mumming crossover, not to be confused with Rap - Celtic crossover all though it's easy to see why people get the two genre confused.

Hip Les in Chorlton

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 05:21 AM

I seem to remember seeing a morris side that had a doctor character(black face, stethoscope and bag) who proclaims 'this man is dead!' and calls on a pretty girl from the crowd to revive him with a kiss. And i feel sure I've seen variations on the theme.

The usual variation is that as the young lady bends and kisses him - the rest of the team fall down dead.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Bainbo
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 10:14 AM

...and then as she goes along the line, each one who "recovers" leaps up, runs to the other end of the line and lies down again. This continues until she notices, or everyone gets fed up.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:44 AM

Legend has that this very scene can be found in a stained glass window in ....................

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 11:58 AM

Mozart used it in Cosi fan Tutti.

Subject: RE: What is Morris Dancing for?
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 Oct 07 - 02:30 PM

Just back from holidays in Croatia, where I noticed several mentions of "Morisco dancing" - involving swords. No mention of musical shinguards, mind you.

One particularly tiny and beautiful island (Susak, in the Kvarner Gulf) also has a strange tradition of dancing involving pink tights and what I would describe as bouffant miniskirts! There is now, apparently, a larger community of Susak natives in Hoboken, in the US, than on the island. I'm not entirely surprised!

Regards