Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:16 PM

This here thread is edjukational...

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:22 PM

Iron Bru

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: michaelr
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 07:19 PM

Tom, as a single-malt lover I'm curious: What's iron-bru?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 06:03 PM

Thanks for that - and as you'll see above I've always conceded the points about niche leakage and broadsheets/broadsides.. it's a very inexact science, but based on some basic principles of presumed isolation and reasonably identifiable and tracable migrations and cross-contaminations (again, not perjorative).

The point is it is not what it was like, but that there's a clear distinction between the 'g'olden days and the post collection period.

Some scots mix single malt with iron-bru. Nice drink I'm sure, but harder to identify which whisky you're drinking.

Oh, and radio killed the tradio star.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:47 PM

Tom, just to say I appreciate all the time and effort that's gone into responding to these posts in such a measured way, for taking my points, sincerely meant, and for responding in a likewise sincere manner. And Declan, I too wish that folks whose only intention is to inflame, well, just wouldn't.

I see what you mean about origins, Tom. I am always fascinated to read of - and investigate myself (i.e. seek out what others have variously written and compare - I am no folk scholar) - the origins of a song or tune. In that respect I can completely see your point about locality and song evolution. But I just don't think that, as you seem to suggest, local origins were ever hermetically sealed, but highly porous - just as they are today, in fact. And I also don't think that we can easily - or at all - make an altogether clear distinction between broadsides and the oral tradition. They merge and mix, just like all of life does. I won't go into reasons why I think this, as others have already made those points above. But just to cite one example, the most ubiquitous traditional song of all, Barbara Allen: scholars still cannot decide if its origins are Scottish or English, for all its hundreds of local variants.

My reference to Ewan MacColl was from his radio series, The Song Carriers, which I have on CD. And yes, I am positive he said words to the effect that I mentioned (criticising traditional gypsy singers for not being, in his eyes, traditional enough). If you like, I could dig it out and make a direct quote.

Again, that's for taking the time.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:17 PM

They are as well defined and as open as folk.

Perhaps you should try singing "Lord Bateman" in a jazz club. Be sure to bring your dictionary.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 05:35 PM

Ron,

Are the words 'Jazz' or 'Rock' or 'Classical' well-defined?

Perhaps I should try the experiment of singing 'Lord Bateman' in a Jazz club and see what reaction I get ...

On second thoughts, perhaps 'Cap'n Birdseye' could try it and report back ... ?

Oh! Hi, Cap'n ... more tea?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:44 PM

Ron,
Must say I really like your last two observations/stanza/paragraph whatever of your post before the one of good luck Nigel.
Very well said and a lot to think about.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:33 AM

Good luck with it Nigel!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:02 AM

QUOTE: "altercockers"

Ron, I really like this word. I'm going to start overusing it with immediate effect.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:44 AM

All of this talk about the true meaning of folk music reminds me of a song lyric by Jefferson Airplane - either Paul Kantner or Grace Slick:

"It doesn't mean shit to a tree"

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Captain Hook
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

I don't believe in folksingers, I don't believe in folksingers !

there mateys, 2 folksingers just vanished from existence..


..and another 2 each hour from now unless you lot sort out this endless 'debate' asap.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:33 AM

"altercockers"

Just where did you get that from, Ron? Haven't heard it in years. What do you know from Yiddish?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:31 AM

Shimmy - no one is drawing lines or abandoning any label!!! That is the frustrating part of this discussion - everyone is talking over the heads of each other.

The problem has been, the original label - the word "folk" was NEVER well defined, no matter what a group said in 1954 to the contrary. The word "folk" has been altered, tragically or refreshingly depending on your point of view, and nothing can be done to stop it. All the pissing and moaning, stomping your feet and holding your breath to you turn blue will not prevent the Guardian from calling Ani DiFranco a folksinger.

Aside from the altercockers who cling to semantic anchors, the world moves on. This does NOT mean that ANYTHING has been abandoned or thrown in the trash heep. Time marches on and change will happen.

During the folk revival, many folklorists and musicologists chose to ignore the revival - with legitamate gripes at the time. I feel what they failed to take into consideration is that this music is a living tradition. The reason collectors still had source singers was because the music was part of their lives. Guess what, Ani DiFranco may be part of the lives of a new generation and her songs MIGHT be serving the same purpose.

You can't freeze time. You can learn from the past, and a big reason for learning from it is so that we can take the lesson and apply it to our modern lives.   People don't live in museums.

The study of folk music will always be about homemade music that comes a community.   I think this helps separate "folk" from "popular".   The river is always going to be muddy, but you swim where you choose.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 10:21 AM

Shimrod,aTeapot is a Teapot,a Spout is a Spout.a kettle is a kettle without any doubt.
the 1954 definition was written not by the singers themselves,but some well intentioned but misled academics,some of them members of the EFDSS.,and is [imo]a definition which has flaws.
no one asked the singers did they?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:55 AM

Drawing the line


___________________________________________________

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:53 AM

"It's funny Shimrod, but it has nothing to do with the topic, nor is anywhere near being a comparable analogy, but it was a really nice try."

Thanks, Ron.

But the point that I was trying to make is: if you're going to abandon one label (for the sake of contemporary sensibilities) why not abandon them all? Where do you draw the line?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:02 AM

You're right Barden, but we can still make connections, as you just did. Once everyone is hearing everything on the radio and buying records it gets a lot more complex.

Bob - Too much analysis not enough feel? No. Just because an issue is hard to explain, and people don't want to know, doesn't mean it's not important. Feel? Have you ever heard my stuff?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:54 PM

I'm not.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Neuwirth
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:48 PM

I take it you people are still pissed about Dylan going electric at Newport in '65.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:33 PM

No, you don't, Bob. And in my memory you never have.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 09:20 PM

All is One, in a myriad of forms...

This thread has had too much analysis, and not enough Feel.
Reminds me of when I was with Reverend Gary Davis, who told me, "You ain't from here, are you boy? Just remember, anyplace you hang your hat is home..."

Another old memory from the 6th grade, Gabriel Donato, an immigrant from Syria, could not speak English and had a tattoo on his left arm "53". The year he came in. Given by the government, I think. Us kids took him in and began to teach him English, We started to point at stuff, telling him the names, like "book", "bike", "bus". You know by the time we graduated from High School. He was the Valedictorian, giving the speech in front of the whole school.

So, I don't see borders in music...

bob

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:37 PM

Yo, Bob. I answered yes to all in Q3. But I like rock and roll. Am I in need of analysis?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bardan
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:32 PM

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved, but here we go anyway. The point I want to make (and it's a minor one) is that 'source singers' 'the wellspring' or whatever else you call it *was* quite exposed to outside influences. There are a whole load of irish songs and tunes that went to America and came back or were even written in America and came over to Ireland. Likewise, you'd find it hard to claim most maritime music was locked into the one region tribe etc... (you could suggest that it was more restricted to sailors, but sailors surely had loads of contact with landlubbers even back in the old days when voyages were longer.) Broadsheets were all over the place. A lot of movement between classes has also happened, (eg the links between various folk dances and court dances at one time or another.) Even recordings of folk are older than the fifties. I think it is slightly naive to see any period as being characterised as a time when music was definitely locked in to particular communities exclusively. I'm probably going to be told I misrepresented people's views and/or am simply an idiot but there we go.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:21 PM

You know, what we need here is a TEST. That's right Folkmeisters, a Flakin' FOLKSINGER TEST! The kind of test that, if you get all the answers right, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that YOU are a Folksinger. Ready? Let's get started:

Q1/Multiple choice: Woody Guthrie is: a/The fabulous new scent by Donna Karan. b/Woody Allen's brother. c/a golf pro. d/a bird from Australia(fam."woodpecker"). e/a singer/writer of songs, early 20th Century.

Q2/ A coffeehouse: a/is where I met my wife. b/a place that caffeine addicts should avoid. c/were places from the 60's where Folksingers hung out(Brits insert "Pub"). d/Damn, I miss those. e/What's a coffeehouse?

Q3/ Fill in your response: I HAVE: a/Slept in someone else's bed or on the floor more than 300 times in my life. b/Drunk more coffee(Brits insert "beer") than a platoon of Ani DiFranco's. c/found more than 1000 uses for old guitar strings, from jewelry to weapons.
d/been insulted and applauded in at least 15 different languages. e/"borrowed" songs, my routine, and picks from other people.

Q4/ Name the pair that are LEAST likely to have slept together: a/George Bush & Phil Ochs. b/ Hillary Clinton & Bill Clinton c/Ledbelly & Madonna d/Joni Mitchell & Mitch Miller. e/The Kingston Trio & The Jacksons.

Q5/ My guitar: a/ and electricity have never met. b/ is older than your sister. c/cost about 1/2 of what I pay for shoes now than when I bought it. d/just try to take it from me and see what happens to you. e/is my wife's main competition.

Well kids, that's it. So how do you think you did? We're on the honor system around here so all responses are confidential. ANSWERS can of course be found "blowin' in the wind" on some dark and dirty highway...

Next time you pass by a high school ask the first group of kids you see, make it fair, try some that have piercings and tatooes, others not, What's a Folksinger? Now they WILL take a LOT of photos of you with their digital cameras, don't panic. And be sure to ask them when they don't have their iPod earphones plugged in...Then, ask them who Ani DiFranco is...

bob

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 08:14 PM

Greg,

I am not disagreeing with labelling. I disagree with the labels being applied.


It is not correct to say that there are no value judgements associated with these labels on this forum.

Anyway I've wasted far too much time on this thread, which I'm convinced was set up with a view to getting people wound up. Light the blue touchpaper and stand well back and enjoy the fireworks.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:16 PM

It's funny Shimrod, but it has nothing to do with the topic, nor is anywhere near being a comparable analogy, but it was a really nice try.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:38 PM

"I wonder if Aliens from another Galaxy are watching this, and if they are, what are they thinking? "

I am. I think there are two VALID points being made.

1) It's nice to have an idea what music one will listen to before going to a club or concert, so in that regard the label is a good thing.

2) Good music is good music, and that is self evident.

BUT, there seems to be the presumption that someone has said the ONLY good music is trad or folk or . . . . Folks--it ain't been said. Not by anyone on this thread. Nor did anyone dis (sp?) Ani DiFranco, so do one of two things: Leave the thread and save your BP, or talk to the point, not the fuzzy area that some people think has been created by an incident that didn't happen.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM

Shimrod, that was the funniest post I've read in ages!

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:09 PM

I wonder if Aliens from another Galaxy are watching this, and if they are, what are they thinking?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:02 PM

Did you know that:

Louis Armstrong was a concert pianist

Frank Sinatra was an opera singer

Beethoven was a bluesman

Mozart was a rapper

Einstein was a nun

and Stephen Hawking is a biologist.

Anyone want to argue? After all they're only "labels"! And anyone who says different is a boring, "label-loving" old fuddy-duddy!!

I'm definitely with 'PQRS - Ran Elesko' on this - because he is a marine crustacean - just as I am a mollusc.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to stop now as my leg has just fallen off. Oh no - it's my arm (got confused there for a minute - can't think why ...?). Anyway, I hope the "doctor" (or "tailor" as he's sometimes known) knows how to stitch ears back on!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:22 PM

Greg, the arguement isn't over whether the animal is called a giraffe or a zebra - the arguement is over whether it can be called a mammal.

Frankly, the black and white animal is starting to smell like a skunk.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:23 PM

Declan: you and some others always seem to confuse clasification with adverse criticism.Personally, I am not that familiar with Ani DiFranco,'s work so I haven't anything much specific to say on that; but surely you can recognise that saying you think someone is or is not a folk performer is not denigrating or praising their performance? If we see a black and white striped anuimal, we might disagree if you called it a zebra and I called it a giraffe, but neither of us would be saying it is a Bad Animal. We would just be attempting to classify it.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 01:54 PM

Good post Tom.

I understand the importance of what you are saying.

However the 1954 definition seems to be being used by some to be puting down others as non-folk performers, as if this made some sort of difference.

I am very slowly (embarassingly so) beginning to realise that some of those who post in this manner are yanking our collective chains. I will try my best not to react to such provocation in future.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 07:51 AM

"I wonder what these presumably 'bad' "external influences" are"

Nay nay and a thousand times nay! This has nothing to do with quality or subjective opinion.

Bother. The trouble with an issue like this is that if you try to be brief you may be misunderstood (and usually are), but if you take the trouble to explain properly you come over as a pompous ass - and even worse, people skip the post and so understand even less.

But I'll try one more time, in pompous ass mode - no apologies.

(I'm talking abut UK-based folk music here, though the same does apply elsewhere).

Folk, uniquely amongst other genres of music, operates in a territory where the study of history, and issues around the preservation and exploitation of historical culture, overlap with contemporary art and commerce.

With classical and most other 'old' music, people stick to the dots, and the dots have the maker's name at the top. This is mostly even true of early music and choral work. There is usually a clear route back to the root. Everything is well documented, and there are plenty of ways we can cross reference a composition with the life of the composer, for example.

All the other musical genres, jazz, pop etc, were mainly created in the mass-media age. Victorian music (blues, music hall, parlour balads), does lie somewhere inbetween, but mostly we again have a good knowledge of the context and all that goes with it.

But folk is different. Only folkies work with material which is both popular and dynamic today, but also stretches back into history - into the territory inhabited by historians and archeologits, and which may be of importance to both, even if they have no interest in the music per se.

Now, in other areas of society where there is a direct connection with historially valuable material, such as metal detecting, wreck diving, or the restoration of old buildings, there are laws designed balance modern activities against the intrinsic historial value of the original work, and to protect the information contained within and around that work, even if the work itself cannot be preserved.

There are no such laws - and nor, in my opinion, should there be - around folk music.

But there are some responsibilities to do with making sure that those who do want to study the history of folk music and to relate it to other historical investigations, or who are just interested in the exploration of old traditional music, can do so without latter-day activities muddying the water, and making such studies harder than they need to be.

So, the purpose of encouraging people to understand the difference between the development of the wellspring, where songs and tunes evolved in niches, and the development of post collection, post mass media folk - in all its many permutations, is merely to recognise that there is a difference in the way we have to approach this music, and the veracity of the information we can interpolate from it.

I wasn't being dismissive of C. Ham's point - it's a good and interesting one, but it has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make.

Both Doc Watson and Frank Sinatra could have learned both those songs EITHER from a personal acquaintence, OR from a recording.

Wellspring singers could ONLY learn from a living person (ignoring broadsheets etc for the moment, ok?) Crucially they will have not only learned the words and tune from that person, but they'll have been fundamentally influenced by that person's approach. The singing style, and perhaps - as Jim Carroll has suggested, facinatingly, in another thread - other technique about 'seeing' songs, about projection and other issues of interest, which have been passed on, in relative isolation, down that particular stream.

And even if the song WAS learned from a piece of paper (as many were), that singer would still have been working in some isolation - so his influences would be localised by geography, tribe, occupation, etc. It's this isolation, and only this, which allows us to make educated guesses about the evolution of songs and tunes, and so grobe back through history - to, for example (mis-quoting BIll Prince singing last night in Northampton) try to work out if Long Lankin was a mason, a leper, or the figment of someone's fevered imagination. (Compare the historical value of two versions collected by Bob Copper only 3 miles apart, with the historical value of a version learned from a Martin Carthy CD - for example).

I would NEVER say it was wrong or bad to bring influences from elsewhere into your personal interpretation of a song or tune. In fact I do it massively all the time. And I doubt MacColl was saying that about Gypsy singers who'd been influenced by Music Hall either. I suspect he was saying (and I guess this because it fits closely with the other 'crimes' of which he and the critics group are wrongly accused) that we can't learn as much from those performers as we might from a singer who had never heard music hall, and so might provide valuable insights into the musical heritage of their particular niche.

You see the difference?

One more point: I've been referring - for simplicity's sake - to the arrival of a mass, global media (and, in particular, sound recording) as the break point in our ability to interpret, to track and tace backwards, to learn and glean contextual information. But it's equally true that the very act of collection creates a break point.

One unfortnate side effect of any collection of wellspring material is an element of ossification, of even fossilisation, of that work at that point - if we're not careful.

Post-collection, the song continues to evolve. All sorts of interesting influences may or may not come to bear, and the song may or may not be improved massively as a result (just look at the reworkings in my own repertoire - some of each)!

We can admire and enjoy all those versions, but we can't learn much about the origins of the song from them.

We can learn much more from the collected version, specially if the collector has done a good job in collecting contextual information along with the song.

But if we only go back to the source singer, we can easily fall into the trap of believing that this was somehow the 'correct' version of the song (that's what I mean by ossification). That version acquires a spurious integrity - which it doesn't actually deserve.

To go back BEFORE the point of collection, and before any real possibility of 'tarnish' by the mass media (and recordings) - and again I'm not using that word in a perjorative sense - we have to triangulate from the various versions we to have, and we need maximum accurate information about those versions.

Tom

(I'm not a musicologist, but I'll defend to the death their right to musicologicise!)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:18 AM

Critical of others, except his wife - why should we take any notice of his judgement based on that fact alone!!

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:01 AM

Apologies again,

The contribution I was talking about in my last post was from C. Ham and not by Art.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:46 PM

Tom, I wonder what these presumably 'bad' "external influences" are that must not be allowed to sully the 'purity' of folk music? Ewan MacColl was certainly critical of some gypsy singers who, in his opinion, were too influenced by the styles of crooners and music hall. But was he right to be critical? We are all influenced, surely, consciously or not, by all we hear. Is the logical end of this kind of 'purity' that 'folk' should only sing unaccompanied, as that's the way (British Isles and Irish) collectors heard their sources? Are Bellowhead not folk, because they are jazz influenced (oh dear, and is trad. jazz a type of folk music?!)? Should Nic Jones, Martin Carthy et al have kept their guitars in their cases to save sullying the purity of English song? Does it matter, as long as the songs are sung and loved?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Declan
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

Tom B,

Apologies for putting words in your mouth. My post back up there a bit was over the top.

I don't personally understand why the media used to pass on a song makes such a difference. But if you want to find a word to use to distinguish between the two feel free.

I do think that Art's point that preceded my post last night brought an interesting perspective to the discussion and I felt that you were dismissive of that.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: deadfrett
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 09:01 AM

In this mish-mash of labeling, I wonder is the Guardian a newspaper or something to clean fish on. Its all in your personal viewpoint.
Our "weekly wiper" hasn't mentioned Ms. DeFranco altough we finally did get some news about Shrub's Security and Prosperity Partnership(SPP).That's taken about two years and I'm still confused about that.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,TB
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 08:54 AM

Graham, I've been careful to allude that fact briefly in nearly every post

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: greg stephens
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Fidjit hits the nail smack on the head when he draws attention to the word "style" in his dictionary definition. Now, I've been cudgelling my brains as to how to define intellectually my gut feeling that Ms Di Franco is not a folk musician: and Fidjit has found it. I know the simple rustic plain folk that live round here, and none of the them sing in the same style as A DiF.QED.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Fidjit
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM

Well I know what I do

It's all written on the first page of my website.
(well acually the second, but we're not spliting hairs here are we?)

I call myself (probably wrongly) a folksinger. What else is a singer of folk songs?

My, Peguin Pocket English Dictionary defines Folk as:

1'Folk
1, The great proportion of the people that tends to preserve its customs, superstitions etc.
2, Specified kind or class of people - often with meaning.
3, Simple music, song of traditional origin or style.
(Nb "or style". Now that says a lot!)
4, People generally, often with meaning.
5, The members of one's own family, relatives.

2'Folk
1, Originating or traditional with the common people.
2, Of the common people.

I'll get my coat.

Chas

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Grab
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:58 AM

Tom, you want to make those two systems even more complicated, add broadsheets and songbooks, which is almost certainly how some of the repertoire of "source singers" got to their families to be passed down the generations...

Graham.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 07:13 AM

The issue is about influences. When you study the Wellspring (which does still exists in some microcosms) you can reasonably safely make some basic assumptions about niches. When you move outside it you can't - so you need a different approach. Yes, people today can an do learn and pass on songs in the same ways that their forebares did, but you can't count on it, because of external influences. That's the difference - and in musicalolgical terms it's the only difference that matters. (Achieving consesus over the conficting words would merely help marketing and communication).

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:57 AM

Tom, you posted:

"System a - no record players, no radios, not many books - what do you call them?

System b - with record players, radios, and lots of books - what do you call them?

That's the two types of singers/ songs and processes we need to separate. (Reasons explained above)"

The purpose of my earlier post was to ask why we need to differentiate between these two "systems". We know that singers like Sheila Stewart, who sang family songs, also picked up things from the radio and saw no reason to put them in different categories - though those who 'collected her' did.

If the 'folk process' is taking a song from a source and doing your own thing with it - as whole populations do with songs, words, clothes, food, etc. - then this term applies regardless of the source. Of course people did it differently in the past - they didn't have the technology to do otherwise. We do, so we use it.

So-called 'source singers' (and there's another whole debate about that term!) also had their sources. I wonder if they argued over terms and categories from the past? Or did they just learn the songs because they liked them? If someone had offered them a CD from the future to learn songs from, would they have refused it on the grounds that this wasn't 'traditional' or 'folk' enough?

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Oct 07 - 06:04 AM

I just heard Ani on the radio singing something about a releationship break up backed up by trap drum set, electric strings & organ, Didn't sound like folk to me, not even close to acoustic, maybe singer/songwriter rap/folk, or non-acoustic-rock-slow/folk, or classic-easy-listening-folk, or not-your-everyday-folk, or not-so-slow-folk. It wasn't of the people's rock-folk or re-cycle-delic-folk, or well-sung/sprung-folk, or world/roots/folk, or,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,whatever it was.
Well if she isn't folk what is she & what was it she was singing? & if you can't box her how can someone promote her? If she plays folk clubs do they book her as the ????????? to draw in the ??????? crowd.
What do they call her concert acts & what happens if she does a varity of the above mentioned do we just put her out into the world as cross cultural classless counterfolk act? I'm just glad when someone says traditional I understand that.
We have a folk radio station (that's by their deffination) in Boston WUMB, all folk 24hrs, so they say. They play singer/songerwritter, acoustic, gospel, celtic, electric-easy-listening, world-roots, folk-rock, re-cycle-delic folk, 60's folk rock but I hardly hear any folk & seldom if ever any traditional folk, no wonder we're all a mess, no ones doing any folk but they are doing a lot of anything but folk & those that are doing folk don't folking know it.
I'm going home, this is just to confusing, I'm going back to where it's simple & folkie, I'm going back to the farm, back to the hills, back to the sea, back to the factories & the prisons, I'm going where thje sun don't shine & through the pouring rain, I'm going anywhere but here. Someone save me, I'm going down,,,,for the 3rd & last time, help. Good nite.

Barry

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:07 PM

Relax
Well mabe relay is good to.

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Beer
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:04 PM

Please, everyone. Go to You Tube and type or paste the following:   Tim Conway & Harvey Korman. The first picture that should show up is "The Dentist". Sit back and laugh till you eyes hurt.
This is great great stuff and will help all relay.
Yeah!, Right.
Worth a try thought.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: Guardian calls Ani DiFranco folk singer
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 15 Oct 07 - 11:04 PM

As Eric Burdon used to wail, "Baby, please don't let me be misunderstood." I believe my point was a simple one, but let me amplify it. In the USA the term "folk singer" was originally used in the 1920s to describe a diverse array of people, a few of whom may have been traditional source singers, but most of whom weren't. The term has continued to be used that way ever since. The one thing that all these folk singers have in common is that they became known for singing folk songs, or for singing songs that sound like folk songs, or for singing songs which the general public regards as folk songs.