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Gypsy Rover a real folk song?

DigiTrad:
GYPSY ROVER
GYPSY ROVER (2)
GYPSY ROVER (3)


Related threads:
(origins) Whistling Gypsy - prejudice? (133)
Gypsy Rover - River Claydee (12)
Help: history of the song 'Gypsy Rover (15)
Req: Gypsy's Whistling Rover (parody-unanswered) (9)
Lyr/Chords Req: Whistling Gypsy (3) (closed)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Gypsy Davy ( Widdermer Schauffler version)
Gypsy Davy (Flanders' version of "Gypsy Davy" (collected from Mrs. Woodbury))
The Gypsy Rover [Leo Maguire]


Shack 26 Apr 99 - 05:26 PM
Bruce O. 26 Apr 99 - 05:40 PM
26 Apr 99 - 05:54 PM
Zorro 26 Apr 99 - 11:06 PM
Joe Offer 27 Apr 99 - 12:15 AM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 27 Apr 99 - 01:22 AM
Steve Parkes 27 Apr 99 - 03:39 AM
Alan of Australia 27 Apr 99 - 09:08 AM
Barbara 27 Apr 99 - 02:46 PM
Ian 27 Apr 99 - 02:59 PM
Matthew B. 27 Apr 99 - 03:03 PM
Bruce O. 27 Apr 99 - 03:27 PM
Susan of DT 27 Apr 99 - 07:29 PM
Alan of Australia 28 Apr 99 - 06:24 AM
Matthew B. 28 Apr 99 - 06:17 PM
skw@worldmusic.de 28 Apr 99 - 08:10 PM
Martin Ryan 28 Apr 99 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,John Minear - minmax@ceva.net 14 Jun 02 - 06:15 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Jun 02 - 08:17 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Jun 02 - 09:05 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Jun 02 - 09:18 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Jun 02 - 09:22 PM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM
GUEST,Minear - minmax@ceva.net 14 Jun 02 - 09:56 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 02 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Minear - minmax@ceva.net 15 Jun 02 - 04:12 PM
allanwill 15 Jun 02 - 05:07 PM
Malcolm Douglas 15 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM
Herga Kitty 15 Jun 02 - 05:54 PM
allanwill 15 Jun 02 - 06:08 PM
Snuffy 16 Jun 02 - 06:20 AM
allanwill 16 Jun 02 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,GUEST Glen Reid glenreid@onlink.net 16 Jun 02 - 11:13 AM
John Minear 23 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM
GUEST,JB 11 Nov 02 - 01:32 AM
Malcolm Douglas 11 Nov 02 - 02:09 AM
GUEST,Tamilane Murray 29 Jun 04 - 08:13 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 04 - 04:14 AM
MartinRyan 30 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM
GUEST 30 Jun 04 - 04:50 AM
GUEST 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM
Flash Company 30 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM
GUEST,RRM 27 Jan 06 - 05:37 PM
GUEST,Melani 27 Jan 06 - 07:21 PM
GUEST,Anonny Mouse 27 Jan 06 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,J C 28 Jan 06 - 04:22 AM
Peace 28 Jan 06 - 04:58 AM
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Warsaw Ed 13 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM
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Subject: Gypsy Rover a real folk song?
From: Shack
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 05:26 PM

There was a popular song back in the 60s named "Gypsy Rover" (click here). Was that a real folk song, or an adaptation of, say, an Irish ballad?


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Bruce O.
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 05:40 PM

Scots: Said to be a ballad about Lady Cassillis and John Fa in 1643, while the Earl of Cassilis was away at a Covenanter's meeting, but Lady Cassillis died in early Dec. of 1642 (and never abandoned her husband at any date), so it was probably a song meant to embarass the Earl of Cassillis, a staunch covenanter, using the already known tune of "Lady Cassillis' Lilt". [Child ballad. See Gypsy Davie in DT]


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From:
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 05:54 PM

Search DT for '#200' for versions of the song.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Zorro
Date: 26 Apr 99 - 11:06 PM

Wow! Bruce O. said it all. My information has Johnny Fa being hanged for whatever. Bruce, what is a Covenanter?


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 12:15 AM

Gee, my search for #200 came up with TEN versions of the song and instructions to look for other songs that start with GYP. Does the database have so many versions of any other song? the song that was recorded with the title "Gypsy Rover" sure sounds commercial - it must have been horribly mutilated by some singer-songwriter type, eh? (actually, I really like it)
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 01:22 AM

I was just reading about the Gypsy Rover song the other day. Look up these links

Gypsy Laddie
Johnny Faa
Wraggle Taggle Gypsy


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 03:39 AM

This seems to be of those songs which comes along every now and then and grabs everybody - everybody has to have his/her own version of it. It's been rewritten so many times - in the last hundred years or so, that's howq to get your copyright on it.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE TRAVELLING SALESMAN (Alan Foster)
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 09:08 AM

G'day,
There's even an Aussie version............

THE TRAVELLING SALESMAN

by Alan Foster

A travelling salesman came knocking on the door
Of a bored young housewife on the north shore
And he spoke so sweet and he dressed so neat
That he stole the heart of the lady, oh.

Late that night when the yuppie came home
From his office at Jones & Bagnell's, oh
Of his wife there's no sign but a note on the fridge
And a volume of Funk & Wagnell's, oh.

Well he thought that the note would tell him that
His dinner was waiting in the microwave
But instead it said "I have gone far away
So don't bother waiting up for me, Dave".

So he ran to his Porsche in the triple garage
The BM's not so speedy, oh
And his brand new Merc's just another tax lurk
To hell with the poor and needy, oh.

Oh he drove north and he drove south
Searching every motel, oh
Until he spied his own wedded bride
In the bar of the Railway Hotel, oh.

Oh how could you leave your fine waterbed
Your swimming pool and Jacuzzi, oh
And your upwardly mobile husband dear
And become another salesman's floozie, oh.

What care I for my fine waterbed
It's just sprung a leak on my side, oh
For tonight I'll lie both warm and dry
In arms of the travelling salesman, oh.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Barbara
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 02:46 PM

Say Alan, you need a bit of our slang for your ballad: here BMW's are called "Beemers". Dunno why.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Ian
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 02:59 PM

There's also a Kipper Family version called "The Raggle Taggle Travellers" - a bit dated now, because it mentions "Morecambe and Wise"


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Matthew B.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 03:03 PM

Alan,

Bravo! I love that version. Are you Alan Foster?

If so, may I use your song at my next singalong?

- Matthew


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Bruce O.
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 03:27 PM

Bronson's 'Traaditional Tunes of the Child Ballads' has 128 tunes, all but about 3 with versions of the songs.

Actually 2 Johnnie Fa's were hung early in the 17th century, and the ballad writer may have picked one of them for his song, but neither had any known connection with a Lady Cassillis. The 18th century tune "The Gypsie Laddie" wasn't known to be the 17th century "Lady Cassillis' Lilt" until 1838, and Child didn't know that, and thought Cassilis was derived from castle, instead of the other way around.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Susan of DT
Date: 27 Apr 99 - 07:29 PM

Alan - check out the Hippies and the Beatniks version of #200. a similar flavor to yours.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 06:24 AM

G'day,
Matthew B, yes I'm the author, I'd be pleased if you'd sing it. It's a buzz to find your songs being sung in some other part of the world.

Susan, thanks, that's a great version.

Cheers,
Alan


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Matthew B.
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 06:17 PM

Alan,

Thanks for the permission.

I'm leaving right now to go sing with my friends. Your little gem will be in our repertoire tonight for sure.

Matthew


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: skw@worldmusic.de
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 08:10 PM

The 'Gypsy Rover' does seem to be a modernised (and horribly sentimentalised) version of the Gypsy Laddie. I've seen it attributed to one Leo Maguire.I prefer the older versions! - Susanne


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 28 Apr 99 - 08:21 PM

Leo Maguire was well known in music circles in Ireland in the 50's. He presented a radio programme which, at the time, was one of the few to use traditional music, Believe me, very few Irish people would have known any other version of the song in those days!

Regards


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Subject: Lyr Add: GYPSY DAVY
From: GUEST,John Minear - minmax@ceva.net
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 06:15 PM

I posted the following information in another thread on "Whistling Gypsy - Prejudice". I think it was perhaps the wrong thread, so I would like to try again here. I am interested in how these songs originate, grow and change. I would speculate that there was a mid-nineteenth century version of "The Whistling Gypsy" in Ireland, that had roughly the same tune and chorus as Maguire's version, and that this came over to America before the turn of the 20th century. ----------------------------------------------

In her book, ANCIENT BALLADS TRADITIONALLY SUNG IN NEW ENGLAND, Helen Hartness Flanders has a version of "The Gypsy Laddie" (K on pp. 210-213, entitled "Gypsy Davy" that seems related to "The Whistling Gypsy" song by Maguire. She says, "As heard by Charles H. Benjamin in lumber camps north of Patten, Maine, around the 1860's and 1870's. This was sung by his daughter, Mrs. Charles Woodbury, now of Washington, D.C. - December 15, 1948". The tune looks similar. I don't have the means to reproduce it here. Perhaps someone else can do that. The words are as follows:
^^
Oh,Gypsy Davy came over the hills,
Came down through the Eastern valleys.
He sang till he made the wild woods ring,
And he charmed the heart of a lady.

Ah-da-dum, a-da-doo, ah-da-doo, ah-da-day,
Ah-da-dum, ah-da-doo, ah-da-day-dee;
He sang till he made the wild wood ring,
And he charmed the heart of a lady.

A lord returning home at night,
Inquiring for his lady,
They made him this reply, that she
Had gone with the Gypsy Davy.

"Go fetch me now my coal-black steed;
My gray is not so speedy;
I've rode all day, but I'll ride all night
Till I overtake my lady."

He rode till he came to the muddy water side-
It looked so dark and dreary;
He rode till he came to the muddy water side,
Where he beheld his lady.

"Oh, will you leave your house and home?
Oh, will you leave your baby?
Oh, will you leave your own wedded lord
To go with the Gypsy Davy?

"Last night you lay in your soft, warm bed
And in our arms your baby;
Tonight you'll lie on the cold, cold ground
In the arms of the Gypsy Davy."

"I never loved my house and home,
I never loved my baby,
I never loved my own wedded lord
As I love the Gypsy Davy."

The verses after verse one are certainly different from what the Clancy Brothers sing, and seem much more akin to other American versions. But the tune is there and the basic form of the story. In this version the "Lord" is her husband rather than her father.

---- I also came across the following in Dorothy Scarborough's book A SONG CATCHER IN THE SOUTHERN MOUNTAINS, published in 1937, pp. 224-225. Dorothy Scarborough says:

"Margaret Widdemer gave me the words and music for another account of the elopement. She wrote, "This is a variant of the RAGGLE-TAGGLE GYPSIES, evidently. It was given to me orally by Mrs. Margaret Leamy, who learned it as a child in Ireland. It is a lullaby, as is clear not only from the refrain, but from the interesting reproach in the last stanza..." ^^ (G)GYPSY DAVY

Gypsy Davy came over the hills,
Down thro the valleys shady,
He whistled and sang till the wild woods rang,
And he won the heart of a lady.

Ah de doo ah de day ah de day dee,
He whistled and he sang till the wold(sic)woods rang,
And he won the heart of a lady.

My lord returning late at night,
Asking for his lady,
The servants said, "She's out of door,
She's gone with the Gypsy Davy."

Oh, saddle to me my jet black steed,
The brown one is not so speedy;
Oh saddle to me my jet black steed,
I'll off and find my lady!

He sought her up, he sought her down,
Thro woods and valleys shady,
He sought her down by the waterside,
And there he found his lady.

What made you leave your house and home?
What made you leave your baby?
What made you leave your own wedded lord
To go with the Gypsy Davy?

I never loved my house and home,
I never loved my baby,
I never loved my own wedded lord
As I love the Gypsy Davy.

---
Scarborough does not give a tune for this version. The verses are very similar to the version from Maine. Perhaps the Maine version was based on an earlier Irish version. Both predate the Maguire version, especially if the Maine version comes from the 1860's or 70's. The one from Scarborough/Leamy would probably date from about the same period.

Does anyone know of a 19th century Irish version similar to either of these? John


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 08:17 PM

We can't do anything about the tune unless you give it to us; I don't have that particular volume of Flanders. If you have the means to send me a scan of the music, I'll put a link here to a midi file of it.

Email


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:05 PM

The Leo Maguire version in the DT is brief, so not quite sure what you are looking for. Are they songs with the verse about never having loved the baby, etc.? Or whether the father or the lord is searching? Saddling a steed? Gloves?

Most of these songs in America were collected in the 20th century. Although the singer may refer to 19th C. origins one can never be certain, nor can they be placed in chronological order.
The Max Hunter Collection has six versions: Gypsy etc

Vance Randolph has seven in his Ozark Folksongs. They all seem singable to the tune used by most singers.
The Frank C. Brown Collection of North Carolina Folklore gives music for 13 versions (vol. 4). On page 84 is the comment that the melodies have much in common with "Der mey hat menig Herze hoch ersteiget, which was composed by Neithart von Reuenthal (1180-1240)." Differences seem to be based on the singers abilities or search for emphasis rather than on inherent differences in the melody or meter.
Give me more details of what you are looking for and I will try to find it in these references.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:18 PM

You did notice that this thread is 3 years old, and suddenly revived just yesterday? %>)


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:22 PM

Minear's post was today.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:27 PM

Indeed it was. I thought you were replying to the original question!


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Minear - minmax@ceva.net
Date: 14 Jun 02 - 09:56 PM

I've been looking at many different versions of the Child #200 ballad. Part of my search was to see what was on Mudcat. My introduction to this song was the Clancy Bros singing "the Whistling Gypsy", many, many years ago. So, I was interested in this discussion. When I came across the versions in Flanders and Scarborough, it seemed to me that there was some connection between them and Maguire's rewrite and I wondered if he had a precedent of some kind that had an Irish origin in the 19th century.

I'm sorry I don't have a way to scan the tune from Flanders, but it is close to Maguire's. Perhaps someone else will be able to do this. I've always thought that the shift from husband/lord to father was a way of making the story more presentable, perhaps to kids. Maguire's version seems almost like a kids' song, or a camp song. It is missing most of the rough edges of "Black Jack Davy". My question is not profound. I'm just wondering if there are Irish precedents that known to anyone for Maguire's particular version, that are similar to the Flanders and Scarborough versions that I've posted. I'll keep looking and let you know if I find anything else.

I'm aware of the collections in Randolph, Brown, Hunter, Sharp, Bronson, etc., along with the many recorded versions. Part of what is unique about the Flanders and Scarborough versions is the chorus. I've not found that anywhere else.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 10:40 AM

John has now sent me notation for Mrs. Woodbury's tune (see above), and it certainly is close to the Maguire rewrite, which begins to look like a minor polishing job only. Whether Maguire based his song on an American or Irish example I wouldn't care to guess; nor which American versions derive from English, which from Irish and which from Scottish sources.

The tune should eventually be available at Mudcat Midis; for now it can be heard via the South Riding Folk Network site:

Gypsy Davy (midi)


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Minear - minmax@ceva.net
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 04:12 PM

Many thanks to Malcolm Douglas for posting the tune for Flanders' version of "Gypsy Davy" (collected from Mrs. Woodbury). I've done some further looking and I discovered that John Harrington Cox, in 1939, published the same version of "Gypsy Davy" that Dorothy Scarborough has published in 1937. In fact, he got it from the same source, Mrs. Margaret Widdemer Schauffler of New York City. The head note reads:

"Contributed by Mrs. Margaret Widdemer Schauffler, New York City, Novermber 10, 1925. Obtained from Miss Lucis Sanderson, Cleveland, Ohio, who had it from an Englishwoman. Music noted by Miss Frances Sanders, Morgantown, Monongalia County (WVa)" [From FOLKSONGS MAINLY FROM WEST VIRGINIA by John Harrington Cox, published by the Works Progress Administration in June of 1939. This was subsequently published as TRADITIONAL BALLADS MAINLY FROM WEST VIRGINIA in 1939 and again in 1964(ed. George Boswell). Cox's version has been reprinted in Bronson's THE TRADITIONAL TUNES OF THE CHILD BALLADS, vol. 3(?),p. 205.]

Cox's and Scarborough's texts are almost identical, so I won't reprint Cox's version. Scarborough has "Gypsy Davy came over the hills,down thro the valleys shady," and Cox has "Gypsy Davy came over the hill, down through the valley shady." There is a difference in the chorus. Cox has:

>Ah dee doo, ah dee doo, doo day, >Ah dee doo, doo doo, day dee. >He whistled and sang ...

Cox does print a tune, which I have sent to Malcom Douglas to see what he can do with it. From what I can tell, it is quite close to the tune from Maine collected by Flanders. At least they are in the same family, and I would suggest related to Maguire's tune.

Unfortunately, Mrs. Widdermer/Schauffler gives two conflicting sources. She tells Scarborough that the song was "given to me orally by Mrs. Margaret Leamy, who learned it as a child in Ireland." She tells Cox that she got it from Miss Lucia Sanderson of Cleveland, who got it from an "Englishwoman". I don't know what to make of this.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: allanwill
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:07 PM

I have an old 45 at home by Karl Dallas (must be circa 1960) with Gypsey Rover on one side and Wimmoweh on t'other. Would have to be the worst versions of both songs ever recorded, in fact, would have to be one of the worst records ever recorded.

The songs are done sort of skiffle style, he sings in a high-pitched, nasally, voice and the guitar backing is going hell-for-leather over the top.

Wouldn't sell it for quids!

Allan


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:20 PM

The second tune is very close to Maguire's. Though the Flanders set was probably published after Maguire had come up with his, this one was around well beforehand, and I could imagine it being Maguire's direct source. Regularise the tune just a wee bit, make the lyric a little more polished and bland, and...

Judge for yourselves: Gypsy Davy: Widdermer Schauffler version. (midi)


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 05:54 PM

Thanks all for a wonderful addition to thread - Alinact especially (can you still play the Karl Dallas or was that from memory?.

The Gypsy Davy used to be the contemporary folk club at Oxford when I was a student......


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: allanwill
Date: 15 Jun 02 - 06:08 PM

Herga Kitty

Yeah, it still plays, but the sound is as you would expect of a 40 year old record.

Allan


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Snuffy
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 06:20 AM

I thought it was Karl Denver had a hit with Wimoweh (about 1960/61).

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: allanwill
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 10:34 AM

Karl Dallas - DOH!!!

Of course, Karl Denver - Karl Dallas probably did a review of it somewhere, though?

Allan


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,GUEST Glen Reid glenreid@onlink.net
Date: 16 Jun 02 - 11:13 AM

Back in 1969, while a member of an Irish pub band called "Brannigan's Boys", we recorded an album including Whistling Gypsy. Also in the band were Dubliner's, John Devlin and Noel Gogarty a.k.a. Joe Brannigan. What made this interesting at the time, was Leo Maguire and Noel Gogarty were related (Leo being, Noel's uncle) According to Noel his uncle gave us the thumbs up and was pleased with the end result(At least, he was) In subsequent years I have heard other versions like Gypsy Davy etc. and have been left with the burning question, did he, or didnt he? G.R.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: John Minear
Date: 23 Jun 02 - 01:23 PM

In a posting above dated 6-14-02, I mistakenly said that Dorothy Scarborough did not have a tune for her version of "Gypsy Davy". The other day I was back in the library and taking another look at her book, A SONG CATCHER IN THE SOUTHERN MOUNTAINS, and I found the tune in the back of the book on page 414. While in a different key from that of Cox's version (which is from the same source and is basically the same song - Cox's tune is available above from Malcolm's posting), it is essentially the same tune, minus the chorus. Cox's is the more complete rendition.

Bronson include's the Cox/Scarborough(from Widdemer Schuffler)version in his grouping Ab, a collection of 12 variations of "The Gypsy Laddie", all from North America, and all with some kind of non-sense syllable chorus, and all following the same sort of tune outline. It is interesting that none of these come from Ireland or England. This general grouping is perhaps the milieu from which Maguire's "Gypsy Rover" comes.


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Subject: Tune Req: Gypsy Rover
From: GUEST,JB
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 01:32 AM

I am trying to get my hands on the melody or the sheet music of the song "Gypsy Rover" written by Leo McGuire of Walton`s fame.

Can anyone help here please?

Tnanks.


JB


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Subject: RE: Tune Req: Gypsy Rover
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 11 Nov 02 - 02:09 AM

There is a midi of the tune with the DT file on this very site: GYPSY ROVER

The same midi can be seen as staff notation at "Another Digital Tradition": Digital Tradition Mirror: Gypsy Rover

It doesn't sound exactly as I remember it from the days when McGuire's song was regularly played on the radio, but it's pretty close, I think. Interestingly, it turns out that it was less his composition than we used to believe; he seems to have based it very closely indeed on a traditional variant of The Gypsy Laddie (among other titles) collected in America. More details in this thread (particularly towards the end).


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Tamilane Murray
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 08:13 PM

The version of Gypsy Davy in Dorthy Scarborough's quote is the version passed on to me by my mother of Irish and Scottish heritage this is a ballad that was sang by her mother, grandmother, and great grand mother, I never knew there was so many versions of it or that it was so popular, I found this site by accident and enjoyed reading every word. Thanks for enlightening me.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 04:14 AM

There is also a version called Black Jack Davey, which has different words but the same story and a different tune to the ones given above. Does anyone know anymore about that version.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: MartinRyan
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 04:36 AM

GUEST

Do a search (top of page) on "Black jack" - it'll get you to several.

Regards


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 04:50 AM

To Martin Ryan


Thank you for yuor help it'll take me a while to read through but I will.

G


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM

But where did "the river Claydee" in the Clancy version conme from? And where is it?


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Flash Company
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 10:06 AM

Dickie Bishop used to sing this with Chris Barber's Skiffle Group, had a last verse:-

What became of the rich man's wife
I think is worth relating
Her gypsy found another love
And left her heart a-breaking, away went Gypsy Dave

FC


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,RRM
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 05:37 PM

this is all very intresting but I would be ever so gratefull if anyone knows if this song is considered traditional/ public domaim or is ther a pubilisher who can be contacted to get the proper info if one wants to include it on a recording now days???

thanks,RRM


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:21 PM

For the record, there is a version recorded by Annie Lore, one of our local people, which I believe is called "The Travelling Refrigerator Repairman, O". Similar to the salesman version, but she takes her toothbrush.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 11:21 PM

Y'all ain't gonna wanna hear this--but the KINGSTON TRIO did a pretty fair rendition on an album, musta been about '61-or maybe early '62-right after David Guard left and John Stewart came in. From the sounds of it, seems they mighta borrowed the Clancys' version-or something close to it. So--I suppose that makes it NOT a "real folk song" now? LOL Interesting to read all the variations on this one...the KT's version the "Gypsy rover" turned out to be the lord of the lands. Rich dude. Girl did o.k. even tho Daddy didn't like him at first.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,J C
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:22 AM

This is my note to a version we recorded from an Irish Travellers in London in 1973

Tradition has it that in 1724, Sir John Faa of Dunbar, accompanied by seven gypsies and disguised as one himself, persuaded Lady Jean Cassilis, to whom he had previously been betrothed, to run away with him. Faa and the gypsies were caught and hanged. The wife, for her part in the affair, was confined in a tower built especially for the purpose, for the rest of her life.   Tradition says that the eight heads carved into the tower below one of the turrets represent those hanged, the plane tree "which yet flourishes upon a mound in front of the castle gate", is the site of the execution and the ford by which the fugitives crossed The River Doon is still called The Gypsies Steps. This ballad originated in Scotland and was claimed, without any historical foundation, to be related to the supposed abduction
It has enjoyed great popularity in England, Scotland and America and, while it has turned up in Ireland, as collector Tom Munnelly points out, "the task of fixing its Irish provenance has been made difficult by the ubiquity of a recent re-write by Leo Maguire known as "The Whistling Gypsy".
There have been Irish versions collected; Child gives one taken down from Miss Margaret Reburn in County Meath around 1860 and Joyce give a tune entitled "The Gypsies Came To Lord M-s Gate".   The BBC recorded four sets in Ireland in the 1950s, two from Travellers and two from settled singers in Ulster. Since then there have been more versions found here, including two from Co. Roscommon Traveller John "Jacko" Reilly, one entitled "The Raggle Taggle Gypsy" and another, which he thought of as a separate song and which he knew as "The Dark Eyed Gypsy".
"Pop's" Johnny Connors learned it from members of his family and other Travellers.

Reference
The English And Scottish Popular Ballads   F.J.Child (ed),   
Old Irish Folk Music And Songs               W.P.Joyce;   
The Bonny Green Tree;                      John Reilly; Tom         Munnelly (ed) (Topic LP)

A Re-write, circa early 1970ish Graham Miles (I think), goes -

Rather late last night Mr Jones came home
On the eight-forty-five from Victoria-O
He was rich and fat with a big bowler hat
And he hated the hippies and the beatnicks O

He put his key in his mock-tudor door
And he called out "dear, I'm home O
The train was late and we had to wait,
It must have been the hippies and the beatnicks O"

But no answer came when he stepped inside
But his daughter came to meet him O
Saying, "mummy isn't here, she's gone, I fear
Along with the hippies and the beatnicks O"

"Go get me the keys of my three litre Jag,
For the Mini is not so speedy O
And I will drive till I find her alive
Or dead with the hippies and the beatnicks O"

Oh he drove east and he drove west,
Up the motorways and the bye-ways O
Till he came soon to a hippie commune
And there he espied Mrs Jones O

"What makes you leave your house and your car,
The washing machine and the tele O,
Your children three, not to mention me,
And go with the hippies and the beatnicks O"

Oh what care I for my house and my car,
The washing machine and the tele O
My children three, for now I'm free
To roam with the hippies and the beatnicks O

And as for you, well the day I rue
That ever we got married O,
I'll grow my hair and I'll travel anywhere
Along with the hippies and the beatnicks O"


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 04:58 AM

"Even if a song is P[ublic] D[omain], there may be arrangements of the song still under copyright. You MUST work from a published copy of the item with a copyright date old enough to qualify the item for public domain status."

From

www.pdinfo.com/list/l.htm


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST,Anonny Mouse
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 02:51 PM

A bit of a hijack here-but the public domain thing has me curious about copyright and royalties. Can a public domain song be appropriated, some lyrics changed-maybe a diff chord/music line here and there put in-and copyrighted by the lyricist/music changer as "new" or his/hers to record and get royalties from? Figure someone around here must know about copyright laws (this would be U.S. BTW).

-OR- can "arrangers" or "adapted by-ers" also get royalties? Just wonderin'.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 03:23 AM

I am not a lawyer, but here's a bit of clarification.

Making a recording from a song is a creative act, and so the recording falls under copyright. To play it back, broadcast it, or create other material based *on the recording* would require payment of a royalty or license fee. Whether or not the *song as recorded* is copyrightable is another question, depending on the nature and extent of the changes. A judge would refer to the 1914 case Cooper v. James [1].

In Cooper v. James, two men had independently republished the public-domain Sacred Harp songbook with their own newly-devised alto parts. One brought suit, arguing that to add a fourth part was his own creative idea and protected under copyright. The court found against him: "In patents we say that any improvement which a good mechanic could make is not the subject of a patent, so in music it may be said that anything which a fairly good musician can make, the same old tune being preserved, could not be the subject of a copyright."

I gather that nowadays arranging gets more respect under the law. If your arrangement or adaptation substantially changes the experience of hearing the song, it may be creative enough to be copyrightable. But it's got to be meaty work -- as much as I think Eva Cassidy improved Somewhere Over the Rainbow when she recorded it, I don't think she wrote a new *song* in the process. And I don't think tweaking a couple of words or chords would do it either.

Oh, and for what it's worth, US law does not allow chord progressions to be copyrighted by themselves -- only with a melody attached. Jazz musicians are safe.

[1] http://ccnmtl.columbia.edu/projects/law/library/cases/case_cooperjames.html

P.S.: Back on topic, anyone heard Doc and Richard Watson's recording of "Gypsy Davey" on Third Generation Blues? Any guess where they got that melody from? I note that they, too, have a moralizing verse at the end (two, actually):

When the silks and the rings and the gold were gone,
Old Davey would not tarry.
He said, "You're not a gypsy girl,
and you I cannot marry;
You I cannot marry."

As a beggar now, she's dressed in rags;
In her heart she's still a lady.
At night she'll cry herself to sleep,
Thinking about her baby,
True love and her baby.


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Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: Warsaw Ed
Date: 13 Sep 08 - 07:19 PM

Subject: RE: Gypsy Rover a real folk song
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 09:56 AM

But where did "the river Claydee" in the Clancy version conme from? And where is it?

This was never answered.   Anyone know?


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