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BS: Dr Crippen innocent

Partridge 17 Oct 07 - 02:07 PM
Peace 17 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM
Jean(eanjay) 17 Oct 07 - 02:30 PM
Jean(eanjay) 17 Oct 07 - 03:31 PM
skipy 17 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM
Rapparee 17 Oct 07 - 05:55 PM
gnu 17 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM
PMB 18 Oct 07 - 04:05 AM
Mr Red 18 Oct 07 - 07:50 AM
Rapparee 18 Oct 07 - 08:59 AM
artbrooks 18 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM
GUEST,PMB 18 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM
Folk Form # 1 18 Oct 07 - 09:28 AM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 07 - 11:46 AM
Rapparee 18 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM
TheSnail 18 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM
fat B****rd 18 Oct 07 - 03:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 07 - 03:42 PM
heric 18 Oct 07 - 04:37 PM
GUEST,Barry 18 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM
Peace 18 Oct 07 - 07:30 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Oct 07 - 09:42 PM
Big Al Whittle 18 Oct 07 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,Keinstein 19 Oct 07 - 03:28 AM
Backwoodsman 19 Oct 07 - 08:06 AM
Peace 19 Oct 07 - 10:18 AM
PeadarOfPortsmouth 19 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM
Backwoodsman 20 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM
GUEST,Dave'swife on other computer 20 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM
Rapparee 20 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM
heric 20 Oct 07 - 12:12 PM
heric 20 Oct 07 - 12:29 PM
heric 20 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Oct 07 - 03:01 PM
katlaughing 20 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM

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Subject: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Partridge
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:07 PM

clicky

Apparantly there was a cock up

Pat x


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Peace
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:10 PM

Yeah. Ain't that the truth!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 02:30 PM

Fascinating.

Somebody was found under the house and somebody had murdered her.

I hope that somebody else has the time and the inclination to look into this - I hate being left in suspense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 03:31 PM

.... and of course, any miscarriage of justice is a terrible thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: skipy
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 04:56 PM

I hate being left in suspenders too!
Interesting story though!
Skipy


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 05:55 PM

Done within the limitations of the time. Still, that bit about poisoners should have been a warning -- even then cops knew things like that.

Crippen was the first criminal arrested because of transatlantic radio communications, and the case "made" Spilsbury's reputation.

But while Spilsbury was very good, he was also a walking, breathing ego who would do almost anything to prove his point in court -- and God help those who disagreed with him!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: gnu
Date: 17 Oct 07 - 06:50 PM

Hey, it wasn't me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: PMB
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:05 AM

The DNA evidence only shows that Cora was not her "mother's" daughter. In complex families in the Victorian era, this was actually very common- children were often brought up by other family members when orphaned or abandoned, and this fact would not necessarily be revealed to them, especially if some touch of scandal was involved. If she was from her "father's" side, there would be no mitochondrial relationship.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:50 AM

the Ripper did it - and he was a doctor (allegedly)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 08:59 AM

Look, it's about time I came clean. This has been preying on my mind for years and years.

The wrong man was hanged.

I did it.

I can't prove an alibi.

There. Now it's out in the open.

I also tripped Amy Robsart, shot the Chancellor of the Exchequer, assassinated Duke Ferdinand, and killed William Rufus. But I'm not Jack the Ripper. That was the other guy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM

Yeah, Rapaire...but you really didn't have to push the iceberg into the path of that ship now, did you? That was a bit over the top.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM

Who was Jock the Rapper then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:28 AM

More to the point, who was the body that happened to be under Crippen's house?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:46 AM

it could be some homeless person that Cora and one of her boyfriends lured back to Hilldrop Crescent.

Motive: revenge maybe..............


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Rapparee
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

For that matter, it could have been one of Cora's friends....


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:35 PM

...or one of Crippen's patients.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 01:44 PM

Found with no BONES? What kind of a dismemberment is that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 03:33 PM

Total, I should say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 03:42 PM

PMB's theory that Cora might not actually have been a blood relative of the women who was thought to be her mother seems quite a plausible one, and would remove the need to find another identity for the body in the cellar, and another explanation for the other circumstantial evidence that   helped convict Crippen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 04:37 PM

We need someone to find the grave of Belle Rose.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: GUEST,Barry
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM

So much for repealing the death sentence.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 07:30 PM

You nailed it in one, Rapaire.

"Please allow me to introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
Ive been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when jesus christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around st. petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain
I rode a tank
Held a generals rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
I shouted out,
Who killed the kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me

Let me please introduce myself
Im a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached bombay
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But whats confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me lucifer
cause Im in need of some restraint
So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
Use all your well-learned politesse
Or Ill lay your soul to waste, um yeah

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, um yeah
But whats puzzling you
Is the nature of my game"


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 09:42 PM

Some time ago I read the book on the Crippen trial (from the well-known series on British trials) with complete transcripts, etc. A very interesting book in a series that puts many fictional whodunits in the shade. As McGrath points out, there was quite a bit of circumstantial evidence.
I hope more can be found out, but as PMB and McGrath point out, one cannot be certain that Crippen did not do the deed.

So let there be no moaning at the bar.... at least not yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 07 - 11:17 PM

We can't be s certain you weren't the one on the grassy knoll. Its the chair for you, blue eyes........


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: GUEST,Keinstein
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 03:28 AM

Could be a BLOOD relative, McGoH, but not in the matrilineal line, as mitochondria are passed from mother (only) to children (of all sexes). So you will have your mother's mitochondria, and they are descended from her mother's, and your grandmother's mother's, and so on, back for over half a billion years, since mothers and fathers (i.e. ova being different from spermatozoa) were invented.

You get your Y chromosome from your father, and his father, and so on, the chain is shorter here because back a few tens of millions of years the sex- determination mechanism was different.

The rest of your genes also go back through unbelieveable time, but because of recombination during meiosis they are all mixed up and don't specify which line they came from.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:06 AM

But none of this will bring Crippen back (or the rather floppy bint in the coal cellar), so.............what??


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:18 AM

History books don't change nothin' that happened, that's true. But we write the books anyway because we must.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: PeadarOfPortsmouth
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM

Glad to have found this thread. I heard the Crippen's referenced on COUPLING, but wasn't familiar with the case. Everytime I saw the episode, I'd say "I have to remember to look that up"...but never did.

That's me...curious but lazy.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM

"But we write the books anyway because we must."

.....because we must? Must what? Seems to me like the only thing 'we must' do it for is to take money from the gullible by re-writing the history of some poor sod's misfortune.

But then, Mrs. Backwoodsman's always telling me I'm a 'half-empty-glass' sort of geezer!   :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: GUEST,Dave'swife on other computer
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

There's a lot left out of that article such as the 2 letters sent Chicago from someone claiming to be Belle Elmore (Cora Crippen) before Crippen's hanging attesting to his innocence. Those letters were never given to Crippen or his defense and only came to light years later. Also, all the witnesses against him were paid, especially Cora's alleged lover Bruce somebody or other. That alleged lover was paid a substantial sum to come over and testify and was rushed right back out of the country following his testimony so he couldn't be recalled at a later date.

Another thing - Crippen did not see patients. he was an administrative representative for an American patent (quack) medicine manufacturer and worked primarily in the manufacturer and distribution of popular patent medicines. We know these forumals to be quackery today but in his time, they were very commonly used. His company made a number of very popular homeopathic remedies.

His flight with his lover is of course supicious but the I doubt he would be convicted if tried today. The physical evidence wasn't much then and many of the assumed facts about it have since been disproved.

It's an interesting story. Perhaps more will come of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Crippen was, I think, convicted more because of his love affair and the high-speed, transatlantic chase than because of his alleged guilt.

But again, a body WAS found in the basement of his house. It was ASSUMED at the time to be that of his wife. You don't bury bodies in the basement unless they are, somehow, an inconvenience. Whether the body found was the victim of Crippen or his wife (or someone else, for that matter) remains an open question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM

A body without a head, and with all the bones removed,together with other bits. They couldn't even be sure whether the bits left came from a man or a woman - the "identification" was on the basis of an operation scar that was consistent with a scar that Cora had.

All very strange indeed. Whoever was dealing with the corpse evidently got rid of the bits that would have been hard to dispose of, but left the bits that could have easily been destroyed.

The DNA evidence isn't really very conclusive, as has been pointed out. Children don't always have the biological parents everybody, including themselves, think they have.

It's odd to think that Crippen's lady friend, Ethel le Neve only died in 1968.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: heric
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:12 PM

I wonder if bits of the geneology research have been omitted. Dr. Foran, the current researcher, plainly said: ""That body cannot be Cora Crippen, we're certain of that." He and his team should have been sophistictaed enough to consider the possibility that Cora was not the natural daughter of her official mother. Unless they had unreported information about the birth of Cora, e.g. letters or med records or something documenting or circumstantially confirming the pregnancy (or an obvious relationship to her siblings), he should have said "That body cannot be the natural offspring of [Cora Crippen's mother]."

Not likely I guess, and babies do get switched in hospitals. (I almost was until my mother objected.) Still, the geneologist's findings shoulld have been stated more clearly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: heric
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:29 PM

Kat: You MUST find Belle Elmore's history, and then, much better, her grave or descendants. (Then you can have a true crime bestseller on your hands.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: heric
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM

Well. Hmmm. Cora Kunegunde Makomarsky


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 03:01 PM

has anybody checked the cellar where Miss Le Neve was living in 1968 for bodies. Perhaps it was something SHE liked doing. perhaps she was the one on the grassy knoll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dr Crippen innocent
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:35 PM

heric, thanks for the PM! I love a genealogical mystery! I have found her original name spelled a bit differently: Kunigunde Mackamotzki and she called herself "Cora Turner", sorry if this has already been posted. I didn't find anything at ancestry.com, but will poke around some more.

katonthehunt:-)


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