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BS: Old Farts Thread

GUEST,Jim Dixon 26 Oct 07 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Neil D 26 Oct 07 - 10:44 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Oct 07 - 09:30 AM
The Fooles Troupe 26 Oct 07 - 09:25 AM
The PA 25 Oct 07 - 11:16 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM
Backwoodsman 24 Oct 07 - 10:48 AM
The PA 24 Oct 07 - 10:33 AM
Bryn Pugh 24 Oct 07 - 10:16 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 08:52 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM
Mickey191 24 Oct 07 - 08:27 AM
Bryn Pugh 24 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM
The PA 24 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM
Liz the Squeak 24 Oct 07 - 07:41 AM
The Fooles Troupe 24 Oct 07 - 06:59 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 06:35 AM
Folkiedave 24 Oct 07 - 05:52 AM
The PA 24 Oct 07 - 05:32 AM
The Villan 24 Oct 07 - 03:37 AM
Mickey191 23 Oct 07 - 09:58 PM
Joe_F 23 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM
Art Thieme 23 Oct 07 - 05:02 PM
Mooh 23 Oct 07 - 08:49 AM
The PA 23 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM
The Villan 23 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM
The Villan 23 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM
Bryn Pugh 23 Oct 07 - 06:13 AM
The PA 23 Oct 07 - 05:30 AM
The Villan 23 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM
Folkiedave 23 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM
The PA 23 Oct 07 - 04:41 AM
Bryn Pugh 23 Oct 07 - 04:35 AM
David C. Carter 23 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM
Bryn Pugh 23 Oct 07 - 04:12 AM
skipy 22 Oct 07 - 03:29 PM
GUEST,Winger 22 Oct 07 - 01:30 PM
fat B****rd 22 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM
The Villan 22 Oct 07 - 12:22 PM
Donuel 22 Oct 07 - 12:11 PM
Midchuck 22 Oct 07 - 11:53 AM
The PA 22 Oct 07 - 11:50 AM
The Villan 22 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM
Sandra in Sydney 22 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM
The PA 22 Oct 07 - 09:59 AM
The Villan 22 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM
The PA 22 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM
Bryn Pugh 22 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:48 PM

I once read: "An egocentric pessimist is a person who thinks he hasn't changed, but the world has gotten worse."


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:44 AM

Why is it that old farts start acting like regular old farts? JEEZE!!


    I should think an old fart would be happy to be "regular".



How old do you have to be to be an 'old fart', for all I know I may not be one?


    When you ache in the places where you used to play.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:30 AM

Ok I'm a Crank too, but I meant to say CRANKY Old Fart....


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:25 AM

I'm a Crank Old Fart.

Finally got fed up with Telemarketers and a recent spate of 'crank calls' - they hang up as soon as I answer - think it could be certain people checking to see if I'm home (I know I'm paranoid, but I do have a reason to believe this - which I won't go into)...

So I got the Message answering service - to which I will put a message that basically says - "Tough Titties - I will not be listening to any message sent."

:-)

Well the nutters will hang up as soon as the answering service answers, so they will think I'm at home!!!! :-)

and the telemarketers waste their money anyway.... I am on the Govt 'Do Not Call' list which they ARE SUPPOSED to take notice of....

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:16 AM

Almsost slipped out the back door. They cant get rid of us that quickley. Ruddy kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM

BWM just warn me when you plan to do one of those LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:48 AM

I can do Grumpy. I can fart as well. Must be a Grumpy Old Fart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:33 AM

Have added this post to another thread about answers to other peoples silly questions, thought it fitted in here too.

Just taken a phone call at work - "is Mr ********* about?", to which I answered "yes" followed by silence.

I think she meant "is Mr ******** available, can I speak to him".

She was obviously completely stumped and after a while repeated her question to which I replied, "yes he's at his desk". She still didnt get it, got in a strop and bellowed "well can i speak to him" I just quiely said "yes of course, I just thought you were enquiring as to his whereabouts".

Is this Old Fart progressing into Grumpy Old So-And-So. Hope So!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:16 AM

Hi, Villan

After a week at Sidmouth, it wasn't washed I needed as much as sandblasted

(Only joking)

There was also Letterkenny F F with Red Branch Morris, and the hum off us was rare and powerful. Even Christian baptism couldn't have rescued my whites. I stripped them off and they took themselves off to the laundry basket. In those days perhaps Mickey 191 might have been right - we were too busy dancing, drinking and whoring to have given a rat's arse.

I was a young fart in they days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:52 AM

Seriously
If you look at a 20 year old and think they are good looking and wish you were 30 years younger!!! Well maybe you are an old fart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM

An old fart is anybody over 100 LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Mickey
>>Your implying that cash poor or being a folkie means unkempt and dirty. I've been broke a few times in my life-but could always manage a comb & a clean face. I think some people just don't give a rat's <<

Have you been to a festival LOL How many folkies comb or brush their beard? I think some of them like to catch all the crumbs etc in it and save it for breakfast next morning LOL

I agree, having a shower/bath and keeping oneself clean is something everybody should do. No excuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Mickey191
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:27 AM

The PA: You'll KNOW-Intuitively-You'll KNOW.

Someone said: Old age is when one thinks of a bed as a place to rest one's weary bones and not a FUN place!

Villan, Maybe they are folkies or just strapped for cash......

Your implying that cash poor or being a folkie means unkempt and dirty. I've been broke a few times in my life-but could always manage a comb & a clean face. I think some people just don't give a rat's ---.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

Hi, PA

'Old Fartdom' is more a state of mind than a chronological thing, I think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM

Our office does casual on Fridays, just the morning as we finish at lunchtime. Cant get used to it though.

And, when did 'tradesmen' as they are called these days, stop carrying a pencil behind their ear. It is some bloody health and safety thing.

How old do you have to be to be an 'old fart', for all I know I may not be one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:41 AM

Limpit's new school (Secondary) is very strict on uniform rules and will send children home if they are not correctly attired - and that includes shoes and socks.

It's my ambition to be an old fart... but I'm not happy about waiting to get old first.

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:59 AM

They tried to con me into 'dress casual Friday' at work.

I pointed out that i dressed casual in my own time out of work to get away from work related stress, and normally dressed with a tie at work.

So since I didn't want to ruin my personal leisure time by dressing in the same clothes I had worn on Friday at work, I agreed to compromise by not wearing a tie at work any more!

Management seemed unable to cope with this creativity!

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:35 AM

I was always a suit person mainly due to work. However since I am not working, I utterly detest suits, jackets, ties.
I would much rather be casual and comfortable.
The school that my daughters go to are very strict on uniform and it works. So maybe not everything has changed. They are also well mannered.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Folkiedave
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:52 AM

Nostalgia is cle3arly not what it used to be.

Well somebody had to say it!

Hang on there are some men in white coats at the door.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:32 AM

I think good grooming is just a habit you get into. At all of my schools, from infants to leaving, uniform was not any sort of option and there were no variations. Regulation skirt, blouse, tie, cardigan, socks, shoes, gabardine mack, leather satchel etc. In working life I've always been office bound, which meant suits. When I worked at the Chamber of Commerce women were not even allowed to wear trousers! though that was a few years ago. It starts with school, and depending on how the rules are enforced, it stays with you. Its the schools you see, too bloody soft by half. Uniform should mean uniform and bloody half measures. No trainers should mean no trainers.
I didnt come from a well off family (Green Lane, Small Heath, for those in the know) but you obeyed the rules.

Are there any rules these days?


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:37 AM

>>Where has good grooming gone? I went to a meeting the other night and half the women looked like they just rolled out of bed or wrestled an alligator.
<<

Maybe they are folkies or just strapped for cash, or maytbe they had just got out of bed or indeed wrestled an alligator. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Mickey191
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:58 PM

Love to know what happened to good manners? Since this is old farts domain--I know some or most still hold the door for people. Half never say thanks.

What's happened to shame? Now, if you one is exposed for doing some dastardly deed, people seem proud or try to blame others. Case in point: "If I did it."

Where has good grooming gone? I went to a meeting the other night and half the women looked like they just rolled out of bed or wrestled an alligator.

Everything has changed-not for the better. One last gripe--Why is it that teenagers cannot enunciate and show articulation? Don't they teach that in school anymore?

Why is it that old farts start acting like regular old farts? JEEZE!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

Hopscotch is still played in Malden, MA. I see the chalked patterns on the sidewalks fairly often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:02 PM

Being old allows me to see the world and my youth through MOROSE colored glasses---and then, having the wisdom that accrues with age, I can now enjoy the luxury of insights and philosophies that sustain a person as ancient as this quite admirably!

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:49 AM

What I miss is the company of my family. My parents and one sister are gone, my generation is the oldest in the family, one of my kids lives away and the other is a typical very busy teen who doesn't often have time for me. The bride and I hang tough though, cellphones and email connects us with far flung siblings in a way that phones and snail mail can't. In a few short years the focus has shifted from one generation to the next, and old fart or not, we stay vital by staying with the times, accepting new folks into the family and circle of friends.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Only on-line, probably. Imagine it, virtual hopscotch !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:42 AM

Is hopscotch played anymore


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:39 AM

There you go BWM Jacks or Jackstones Oh you backwoods people, so uncouth LOL :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

"Wasn't that called jackstones Dave."

It was always 'Snobs'here in the Backwoods Les. Never heard of Jackstones - must be another daft Brumagem expression, summat along the lines of 'Aston Villa'. LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:13 AM

Anyone like to start a thread on skipping rhymes they might have used ?

With me, it was a case of the girls saying 'will you turn up for us, Bryn', meaning would I spin the rope.

All those pairs of knickers - ooh - dip thi bread !


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:30 AM

Marlies! In our street the girls we'nt allowed to play marlies, we did skipping. What happened to skipping and the rhymes you sang in the playground. Its all make-up, piercings and hair straighteners these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM

Wasn't that called jackstones Dave.

I used to play that a lot. Great game. Shame it isn't popular anymore.
I don't know, what theses young wipper snappers miss out on these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Folkiedave
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:00 AM

Snobs - no, not a drift from the class thread - little squares of wood you tossed up and caught on the back of your hand. Then doing various things like picking them up one at a time whilst balancing them on the back of your hand. If you couldn't afford wood - you used stones.
Taught me hand /eye co-ordination.

Mind it taught it me badly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:41 AM

Hi Villan, I was looking at exactly the same website yesterday afternoon trying to find a picture of the Queens Hotel!! I love old pics of brum.

Back to moaning, why do people have to race everywhere? I drive at a reasonable speed. Most of my journey to work is along single track bendy lanes where you have absolutely no idea whats round the corner. Its a lovelly morning here, whats so bloody wrong with taking your time and enjoying the view. If you're in a hurry try getting up a bit earlier and leaving a bit earlier. Just stop blowing your bloody horn at me it will not make my foot press any bloody harder on the bloody peddal. And if the toddler in the Corsa behind me keeps flashing his bloody lights I'll be everso tempted to slam on my brakes and he can see what the arse end of a bloody Range Rover looks like stuffed up his nose!

Thank you, I'll have my cup of tea now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:35 AM

The 'Eagle' with Dan Dare and Luck of the Legion.

Plastic catapults for sixpence that broke at the first pull.

Fountain pens for a shilling. School ink made from ink powder
(I was the ink monitor).

Cock fighting at school (trying to pull one another's privates off).

'Seasons' for marbles ; conkers, of course ; pea shooters ; etc.

Slides when it had snowed - the Health and Safety police would be out with salt, today.

Leather case-balls ('caseys') for soccer and netball which also had to be dubbined.

@Bangers' in the outsized comics (The Beezer, The Topper).

I'll take a back seat for a bit - didn't mean to monopolise this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: David C. Carter
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:20 AM

Sherbert Dabs

Toffee apples

Bike clips.On Guy Fawks we used to ram as many"penny bangers"as we could in a drainpipe, and stand back and wait for the terrific"thud"as the lot went off at once.

Desperate Dan and Cow Pie.

David


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:12 AM

Yes, and comics where the good guys (British Tommies, of course) said

'Take that, Squarehead!',

and the response from the bad guys (German soldiers, of course) was

'Ach, you Englisher pig-dog'.

Trains from Withington and West Didsbury Station to Edale for seven and fourpence return

Workmans' bus fares.

Bus guards (conductors).

Sherbet lemons. Kali suckers with hollow lickrish 'straws'. (Coughing fit optional).

Fabric boxing gloves.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: skipy
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:29 PM

I'm Home!
Skipy.
I'll have good moan later


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:30 PM

Do you remember the arrowroot sticks, that tasted like liquorice and made your jaws ache.

Damn - I thought they were liquorice!!

Damn - I was told they were Cadbury's!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: fat B****rd
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:01 PM

The Sun and Comet comics with Red Indians who went Aiyeee !
The Bumper Bundle on Family Favourites.
Burl Ives "Big Rock Candy Mountain" and "I know An Old Lady" on Childrens' Favourites.
Buddy Holly on The London Palladium.                                 The Everly Brothers on the Perry Como Show
On a darker note, The Christie trial and execution. There was a boy in our class called Trevor Christie, poor kid suffered for a little while. Aren't children cruel?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:22 PM

Down the middle of the station ran Queens Drive. One entrance was in Hill Street and the other in Worcester Street. Queens Drive serves the modern New Street Station but the Hill Street entrance is in a different place. The entrance near the Bullring is close to where the old one was, however. The splendid Queen's Hotel, an LMS station hotel, was on Stephenson Street and survived until at least 1966 before being replaced by what is now known as The Pallasades.
Here is a great website with one on the photo's showing the hotel.
Photo's of New Street Station

My brother worked for George Wimpeys at the time and worked on the Rotunda from start to finish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:11 PM

Everything that was old is new again.
Especially in the new great Depression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:53 AM

"Texas 1947" by Guy Clark:

Now bein' six years old, I had seen some trains before,
so it's hard to figure out what I'm at the depot for.

Trains are big and black and smokin' - steam screamin' at the wheels,
bigger than anything they is, at least that's the way she feels

Trains are big and black and smokin', louder'n July four,
but everybody's actin' like this might be somethin' more. . .

. . .than just pickin' up the mail, or the soldiers from the war.
This is somethin' that even old man Wileman never seen before.

And it's late afternoon on a hot Texas day.
somethin' strange is goin' on, and we's all in the way.

Well there's fifty or sixty people they're just sittin' on their cars,
and the old men left their dominos and they come down from the bars.

Everybody's checkin', old Jack Kittrel check his watch,
and us kids put our ears to the rails to hear 'em pop.

So we already knowed it, when they finally said 'train time'
you'd a-thought that Jesus Christ his-self was rollin' down the line.

'Cause things got real quiet, momma jerked me back,
But not before I'd got the chance to lay a nickel on the track.

Chorus
Look out here she comes, she's comin',
Look out there she goes, she's gone,
screamin' straight through Texas
like a mad dog cyclone.

Big, red, and silver,
she don't make no smoke,
she's a fast-rollin' streamline
come to show the folks.

Look out here she comes, she's comin'
Look out there she goes, she's gone,
screamin' straight through Texas
like a mad dog cyclone.

. . .Lord, she never even stopped.

She left fifty or sixty people still sittin' on their cars,
and they're wonderin' what it's comin' to
and how it got this far.

Oh but me I got a nickel smashed flatter than a dime
by a mad dog, runaway red-silver streamline. . . train

Chorus


This means Guy is just a few months older than me. I was 6 in the late fall of 1947. Cool!

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:50 AM

Well now, The Queens Hotel would have been just to the right of the 'ramp' which now takes you up to the shopping centre above New Street Station. So, I suppose if you stood with your back to New Steet and the back entrance to the Midland Hotel it would have been just in front of you. But my memory goes back to the early 60's for the Hotel and the mid 70's for the directions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:45 AM

Don't remember the Queens hotel. Wasn't it knocked down in the early 60's?


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM

Riding on the running boards of Dad's very old car Ford Model A 1927 which he owned when when we lived in our second house between 1959-66.

Bread being delivered! And eating the soft bits when we got the half loaf wih the extra bread (I wonder what the folks did who got the other, smaller half of the loaf!)

Folks up the road getting TV. This was a few years after TV started in Oz (1956) & everyone visited to watch it.

Bofires on the paddock next to us (we were surrounded by Green Belt land, set aside for a highway built about 20 years after my parents bought the house). Our bonfire was bigger & our cracker night was always better cos Dad managed a garage & brought home tyres & other good stuff. The Gough St gang tried to steal our tyres, but us William St kids defended them. I assume we didn't steal anything from their bonfire cos ours was better, but ya never know, with memory being what it is.

Our home & the few nearby were not sewered cos of the expected highway, so I also remember the Dunny men coming weekly to remove the full can from the dunny down the back. Naturally the dunny did not have a light & was surrounded by trees & bushes & spiders, not the place to visit late at night. I can also vaguely remember Dad burying contents of said can if it filled too quickly.

We even had a creek down the road & kids came from everywhere the day someone saw a dead sheep floating in the creek. After that it was always Dead Sheep Creek. The creek was later tamed into pipes & is buried somewhere under the highway.

I can't go back to childhood houses as they are all gone - the house Dad's father built in 1916 was burnt & ready for demolition the day we saw it about 10 years ago. Our next house went when the highway was constructed in the mid 70's & our last house also went under a later section of that highway in the late 70's/early 80s.

sandra


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:59 AM

Ha Villan, the Queens Hotel, bet you cant remember where that was !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The Villan
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM

>>Oh and the smoke at Snow Hill station in Brum<<

I remember that PA and the nightclub underneath the arches of Snow Hill (can't remeber the name of it now).

Aston Villa the only Birmingham Team LOL

Ansells & M&B Breweries.

Massive GEC site at Witton Birmingham

Same for Lucas & Fort Dunlop

West Indian & Jamaican bus drivers & conductors on the buses of Birmingham after WW2.

Cadburys & HP Sauce

The Bull Ring and old market.

Speedway Racing at Birchfield Harriers when Whacker Hunt was the supremo.

Aston Villa beating Manchester United in the 1957 FA Cup final

The very sad Munich air disaster.

Ahhh those were the days in good old Brum :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: The PA
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:20 AM

Best thread for ages! Everything I can think of - someone else has just beaten me to it!
Except for putting pennies (old ones) on the railway line (steam trains of course) and seeing them flattened when the train went over them.
Oh and the smoke at Snow Hill station in Brum. Milk being delivered by horse and cart. Mom swares thats where I get my passion for horses from, and taking over 12 hours to get to Cornwall and not minding at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Old Farts Thread
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

The great thing about white dog shit was that you were never short of something to chalk a wicket on a wall.

Spangles, did somebody say ?

Adventure, The Rover, The Wizard, The Hotspur.

Penny chews, and the consequent trip to the dentist to have the filling replaced.

An injection ? Are you a pansy or something ?

The Cisco Kid. Ninepenny comics - Kit Carson, Buck Rogers.

Cap guns, and penny bangers that would blow a milk bottle apart.

Long trousers when you were 15 and not a day before.


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