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Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)

Related thread:
Happy! –Dec 7 (Darnley/Chapin) (1)


tutti flutti 19 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM
Richard Bridge 19 Oct 07 - 04:43 PM
Susan of DT 19 Oct 07 - 08:36 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Oct 07 - 08:42 PM
Malcolm Douglas 19 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM
Malcolm Douglas 19 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM
tutti flutti 20 Oct 07 - 04:53 AM
tutti flutti 20 Oct 07 - 09:10 AM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Oct 07 - 09:36 AM
tutti flutti 20 Oct 07 - 01:29 PM
GUEST,Joel 22 Oct 07 - 07:05 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Oct 07 - 09:31 PM
tutti flutti 23 Oct 07 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,joel 23 Oct 07 - 09:12 PM
GUEST,Jane Steinberg 04 Aug 10 - 08:32 PM
Jim Dixon 15 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: tutti flutti
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

Does anyone have the lyrics for this song, please?

I have searched everywhere I can think of and the only link I come up with is to 'The Four Marys' but this isn't the same song.

The song recounts the murders of David Rizzio and Lord Darnley (secretary and husband of Mary, Queen of Scots, respectively). It has many verses.

I have a recording of it and am able to get some of the words from this but a lot are not clear enough for me to catch them.

Any help/pointers/links would be very gratefully received.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 04:43 PM

I do not know if Cobham Hall School maintains any sort of historical archive, but it should. It was of course the seat of the Earls of Cobam and Darnley before becoming a girls' public school. The last Darnley went rather odd while a prisoner of war of the Japanese, and lived out his life in Pipes Place, once part of the Darnley estate but now the other side of the A2.



They will be in the phone book.

linky


The Darley family by way of contrast are estate agents and solicitors...


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Susan of DT
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:36 PM

Take a look at Earl Bothwell, Child #174 in the DT. Is this what you are looking for?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 08:42 PM

Seems improbable, Susan, since the mention of Darnley is in the footer only. I seem remember a row with a history master at school about whether I was right to designate Darnley Mary's cicisbeo.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:12 PM

'tutti flutti' has asked a very obscure question. He or she really ought to have told us what the unnamed recording he or she wants more information on actually was; it is always better to tell us what you already know rather than make us waste time in guessing, or finding out for ourselves what you could have told us at the start.

I assume that the recording in question is Harmonia Mundi HMC901983: The Elfin Knight: Ballads & Dances from Renaissance England, by Joel Frederiksen and Ensemble Phoenix Munich.

Are there no sleeve notes that might provide some indication as to where the text and tune were got? 'Anonymous' doesn't really cut it any more; we have a right to expect more than that from professional singers nowadays. Although they rarely seem to understand much about the background of the songs they sing, they presumably do at least know where they got them from.

Maybe I spoke too soon. Having found sound samples at Amazon, I find that Frederiksen sings 'Willy o' Winsbury' to the tune that Andy Irvine accidentally set to it back in the 1960s, but which had never been used for it before then. 'Renaissance England?' 'scrupulous musical and historical research?': oh dear.

Neither Richard nor Susan has guessed anywhere near the mark. So far as the original ballad is concerned, there appears to be only one candidate: 'A dolefull ditty, or sorowfull sonet of the Lord Darly, sometime king of Scots, neuew to the noble and worthy King Henry the eyght: Imprinted at London by Thomas Gosson dwelling in Paternoster Rowe, next to the signe of the Castell', c.1579.

As I've said, very obscure. I find only one reference to a (potentially) accessible printing: the late Bruce Olson indicated that it was reproduced in Carol R Livingston, British Broadside Ballads of the Sixteenth Century, 1991, plate V. The tune specified was 'Blacke and Yellowe'; although this was used for a few other songs of the period, its identity is, so far as I can tell, unknown. Later songs name the tune 'Lord Darley' (later still, 'Lord Derby') but Simpson doesn't mention it, and I don't know whether or not it survives. Given Frederiksen's grossly anachronistic use of the wrong tune for 'Willy o' Winsbury', there is every chance that the tune he used for this one didn't really belong to it either. More information would be welcome.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM

I forgot to add that Bruce quoted a verse in an old discussion here:

There dwelt a stranger in the court,
Sinior Dauid calde by name,
He was the first that went about,
This treason vile to frame.

This may, of course, not be in the recording I mentioned earlier.

I may have done Susan an injustice: from the little that can be made out in the online sound sample, the words 'woe worth, woe worth' certainly do appear, as they also do in 'Earl Bothwell'. The rest (so far as I can tell from the poor sound quality; probably sung a bit too fast for clear articulation) is, however, completely different.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

sounds very interesting - I hope you find it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: tutti flutti
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:53 AM

Sorry, Malcolm - I had no idea I had posed an obscure question.
Yes, it is the Joel Frederiksen recording but I have no sleeve notes because I bought the album from iTunes and, as far as I know, although the artwork is available, the sleeve notes are not.

The verse:
There dwelt a stranger in the court,
Sinior Dauid calde by name,
He was the first that went about,
This treason vile to frame.

does indeed appear in the Frederiksen recording.


Susan:
Earl Bothwell does seem to tell the same story although the words are different except for this verse:

The Queene of France a letter wrote,
And sealed itt with hart and ringe,
And bade him come Scottlalld within,
And shee wold marry him and crowne him king.

which is substantially the same as part of the second verse of Lord Darly.


Each verse ends with:
Woe worth, woe worth, woe worth them all,
Woe worth to them I say,
Woe worth, woe worth, woe worth them all,
Woe worth to them alway.

(at least I *think* that's how each verse ends - it moves along at a brisk pace and I can't be sure I hear the words correctly. For example, at first I thought it was 'more worth' which didn't make sense!).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: tutti flutti
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:10 AM

Malcolm:
You mention that the tune Frederiksen uses for 'Willy o'Winsbury' is not the right tune for those words. I absolutely love that tune - do you know what the tune is called and which words *should* belong to it?
Sorry to be a pest!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:36 AM

It really belongs to Fause Foodrage. Andy Irvine got it from Child, English and Scottish Popular Ballads, V (appendix: Ballad Airs from Manuscript), page 416, number 89C: 'Fause Foodrage', from the [Scottish] Harris MS. He actually meant to copy out number 100J, 'Willie O Winsbury', which is on page 418 [also Scottish, from Miss M MacMath]; presumably the page flipped over and he didn't notice.

By the time he realised his mistake, the new, mutant 'Willie' had been recorded by both Sweeney's Men and Anne Briggs, and it was too late to do anything about it. He made no secret of it, but wasn't, so far as I remember, very specific about where he had got it ('a book of ballads').

Having nothing urgent to do one afternoon a few years ago, I decided to find out. There weren't many 'books of ballads' including music easily available in the late '60s, so it didn't take me long. I expect that plenty of people knew already, but if so the information wasn't to be found online at that time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: tutti flutti
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 01:29 PM

Thank you very much, Malcolm for your detailed and very interesting answer.

It's good the have the correct words to go with the tune.

I think it would be a good idea for me to see if Child, English and Scottish Popular Ballads is still in print and buy a copy or try to get hold of a second-hand copy if out of print. It would be such a good resource to have.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: GUEST,Joel
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:05 PM

Hi Malcolm, Thanks for your extraorinarily ignorant comments about "The Elfin Knight". Perhaps you should purchase the recording--with the liner notes--and make up your own mind.

Malcolm's quote:
"Are there no sleeve notes that might provide some indication as to where the text and tune were got? 'Anonymous' doesn't really cut it any more; we have a right to expect more than that from professional singers nowadays. Although they rarely seem to understand much about the background of the songs they sing, they presumably do at least know where they got them from."

You must be a very "confident" person to write something like this online without doing an ounce of homework. On pages 23 through 32 of the very extensive booklet you will find the text in three languages, and the following information about Lord Darly (Darnly):
Imprinted at London by Thomas Gossen dwelling in Paternoster Rowe, next to the signe of the Castell, [1579?]; Text transcribed from the facsimile in Carol Rose Livingston's book, British Broadside Ballads. Melody suggested by Ross Duffin in "Shakespeare in Song". This is the earliest extant broadside ballad related to a Child ballad (no. 180--King James and Browne).

All of this information is included in the booklet--something which is, I believe, rare. And I did not mention the historical notes!

For a detailed discussion of "Blacke and Yellowe" please see my explanation in the liner notes.

As for the rest: I wrote me own harmony parts for "Lord Darly" and I do not apologize for other inventions of my own on the recording. I do not even claim that everything is from Renaissance England or Scotland--what shall I say? You have not "gotten it" and if you do not wish to that is certainly your business. Do you understand that there are three versions of Child Ballad #2 (The Elfin Knight) on the recording? If you did you would see that one was collected by Cecil Sharp in the Appalachian mountains (no secret!). But please, since you are apparently interested in making grossly inacurate comments about a recording that you know nothing about I would ask you to really do a bit of homework or do something else.

How dare you, Malcolm!!
"Given Frederiksen's grossly anachronistic use of the wrong tune for 'Willy o' Winsbury', there is every chance that the tune he used for this one didn't really belong to it either. More information would be welcome."

I hope this is a bit of information for you, Malcolm.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:31 PM

I am very glad to hear that there is a booklet with your recording that answers most of the questions that 'tutti flutti' asked. If you read my first post again, you will see that my question 'are there no sleeve notes' was addressed to her; my first thought in the case of questions like this is always that either there are, and the questioner hasn't read them, or that they haven't actually bought a copy of the recording but want the information anyway.

It turns out that she bought the album as a download and that this did not include any background information, which is rather a pity. It would have saved me a good deal of time spent in working out what recording she was talking about and where the text came from. Checking standard references and indexes, that sort of thing. The 'homework', in fact, that you accuse me of not having done.

Since neither your website nor that of your record company provides any information on your sources (and fails to mention that any such is available) it is scarcely surprising that I didn't know that you have actually provided that with the physical copies. I am not psychic. Perhaps you should say so (and see to it that the information is included as part of the download package, if it is not already) instead of just concentrating on reviews and press releases.

As you say (confirming my earlier comment), it is rare for professional art singers to include useful, substantive and accurate information with their recordings when they venture into the area of traditional folksong and broadside ballads. I am glad to know that you are an honourable exception. It does you credit, and your website really ought to mention this. It might help to avoid misunderstandings.

Yes, I see from the track listing at Harmonia Mundi that there are three examples of 'The Elfin Knight', though I'm puzzled by the pseudo-archaic spelling 'Faire' in two of these. Perhaps that was a decision made by your record company? You will of course know, having done your own homework, that there is no final -e. I'm not sure what that has to do with 'Lord Darly', though.

Were you aware, incidentally, that the 'Willy of Winsbury' tune was an inadvertent modern coupling? You don't address that question here. Are the sources detailed in your own commentary? I have no interest in the sort of recordings you produce, though I don't doubt their technical quality; so I'm afraid I won't be buying a copy just to find out. 'tutti flutti' has bought one, though (albeit as a download) and she might like to know.

'How dare I'? Very easily, as it happens. I am here to help people find information that they cannot find for themselves. If in the course of that I make remarks that you do not like, then consider this: had you ensured that the information was provided with the paid-for download, or indicated on your website that it existed and was (in theory) available, none of this would have been necessary.

I hope that that is a bit of information for you.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: tutti flutti
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:42 PM

Joel,

I am truly sorry to have, however unintentionally, caused this upset.
Please let me explain:
There was a thread in Mudcat where someone recommended your CD 'The Elfin Knight'. It sounded like the sort of thing I like so I went on to iTunes to listen to short excerpts.   I really liked what I heard and was bowled over by your glorious voice so decided to buy the CD.

The Amazon price was about £13 (I think) and iTunes price £8. As pennies are not plentiful I decided that £5 was a very big saving and there was the added bonus of not having to wait for the CD to be delivered. I am really sorry now that I didn't order from Amazon as the detailed sleeve notes you've described would have been well worth the extra £5. I guess now I will have to buy another copy to get the valuable information in the sleeve notes.

Because I had no sleeve notes I didn't have the words for Lord Darly and I like the song very much. So I posted the Lyrics request on Mudcat and this started this whole sorry ball rolling.

All I can say is 'mea culpa' but add that the CD is outstandingly good and I can't praise it enough. I play recorders and baroque flute in an amateur (but hopefully not amateurish!) early music ensemble and your CD has been the inspiration for a change of direction for us. I won't, of course, steal your arrangements!


Malcolm:
My apology to Joel is for you too - I am so sorry to have been the unwitting cause of any unpleasantness.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: GUEST,joel
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:12 PM

Thanks for answering, Malcolm!
As for Willie--page 46 of the booklet will tell you.

Thank you very much "tuttiflutti". I am happy that you are enjoying the recording. I did do a great deal of research to make the CD and drew on my Master's in early music, my study with Joseph Hickerson at the Library of Congress in the Archive of Folk Song, and my subsequent work with early music ensembles in America. I was not, however, out to create a historical artifact, but rather to present music that interests me in a new way. I did my schooling and learned how to do research (which is also a living process...one can never know it all), and I inform myself of all that I can in historical performance practice. That said, I am first and foremost a performer and my goal was to present music to people in a way that might move them now, today, here at this moment. The new CD which I am working on at the moment is something completely different: Caccini, Kapsberger, Landi, and friends. But is it? In the end I want it to communicate just as directly as these ballads. I am interested in text, in beauty, and to develop my art to a level that it can "move the affections" (as the Italians said). If I succeed will always be a matter of opinion.

All the best,
Joel

PS. What can I say to someone who freely admits that he "has no interest in the sort of recordings" that I produce? What sort is that? I do not produce a "sort" of recording. And there are, unfortunately, no field recordings of Renaissance singers. But I also cannot argue: I did not make a strictly historical recording this time. After all, I accompany myself with a Renaissance lute on Barbara Ellen, a song which Cecil Sharp and Maude Karpeles collected in the Appalachian mountains sometime between 1916 and 1918. I was interested in creating bridges with the CD--old world and new world, old and new. What can I say? The people who don't like it can buy a Jean Ritchie recording. But actually that is what bothers me about this kind of criticism and it is also what keeps me away from joining these Folk Clubs: Why can't one like both? I for one loved hearing Jean Ritchie sing. Or if we are talking about historical authenticity and scholarship: Yes, by all means.

Thanks for the comment about the website, Malcolm. I will consider it. As for "Faire"...hmm. I am looking around for the source of the spelling. Thought it was in Chappell's Book--in the supplement by Frank Kidson where I got the tune of Scarborough Fair, but it is in fact spelled "Fair" (and of course that book is not a recent one of scholarship).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lord Darly (Lord Darnley)
From: GUEST,Jane Steinberg
Date: 04 Aug 10 - 08:32 PM

I think i may have what tuttie fruttie is looking for
The queen of scots she sent to him her heart and ring '
if he would come to her she would make him king"
by annon played on weekend Breakfast ABC Classic FM 106.10 Colin Fox was the announcer


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Subject: Lyr Add: LORD DARNLEY (1567)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Aug 10 - 05:23 PM

From Lives of the Queens of Scotland and English Princesses Connected with the Regal Succession of Great Britain, Vol. 5 by Agnes Strickland (Edinburgh and London: William Blackwood and Sons, 1854), page 244:


Feb. 1567.

A Doleful Ditty and a Sorrowful Sonnet of the Lord Darnley, some time King of Scots, Nephew to the Noble and Worthy King, King Henry the Eight, and is to be sung to the tune of Black and Yellow.*

1. My pen and hand proceed to write,
A woeful tale to tell:
My pen it cannot half indite,
Alas! how it befell.
Woe worth the men that treason first,
This thing did take in hand;
Of all men's mouths they may be curst
Throughout this English land.

[CHORUS:] Woe worth, woe worth, woe worth them all,
Woe worth to them, I say;
Woe worth, woe worth, woe worth them all,
Woe worth to them alway.

2. As it befell to Lord Darnley,
Whose friends they may all rue,
That ere he on Scotland ground,
Or any place therein knew.
The Queen of Scots a letter sent,
With it a heart and ring,
Desiring him to come to her,
And she would make him king.

3. He thought it was a courteous deed,
So noble a Queen as she
Would marry him, and make him King;
Thereto he did agree.
When first in Scotland that he went,
He was discreet and sage;
And when in hand he took to rule,
But twenty years of age.

4. But listen now, and give good ear,
To hear what chance befell;
For, as the proverb old doth go,
Gold may be bought too well.
There dwelt a stranger in the court,
Signior David called by name,
He was the first that went about
This treason vile to frame.

5. And Chamberlain he was to the Queen,
Who preferred him wondrous well,
As all the lords in court beheld,
Which caused their hearts to swell.
Against this David grudged the King,
A quarrel was picked for the nonce;
Within the chamber there was drawn
Twelve daggers all at once.

6. Some of the lords took the King's part,
And some took his certain;
Two daggers he had at his heart,
And so was David slain.
And when the Queen heard of this news,
She sore began to weep,
And made a vow and oath certain,
That she did mean to keep—

7. 'That in a twelvemonth and a day
She would not be pleased be,
Because that David so was slain,
With such great cruelty.'
The twelvemonth and a day expired,
A meeting there should be;
By all the lords it was agreed
With great solemnity.

8. 'At Rocksborough Castle then and there
This King and Queen should meet,
And be made friends as erst they were;'
Some lords the same did seek.
Three wights conspired the King's death,
Whose names are all well known:
For which, alas! the people in
The country made great moan.

9. The wights which this treason began,
For to destroy the King,
They took with them gunpowder there,
The chamber they went in.
And to them close they shut the door,
For fear of being spied;
They strewed the powder round about
Full thick on every side.

10. And thereon strewed rushes green,
To hide the powder withal,
Because they would not have it seen,
Nor nothing smelt at all.
The banquet then prepared is,
They sup and drink the wine;
The King, alas! knew not of this,
The which was wrought that time.

11. And after supper they did talk,
To pass away the time;
And every man his fancy spake
As best did please his mind:
Some men with Signior David held;
The King then, in a rage,
Up to his chamber went straightway,
None with him but a page.

12. And when he came the chamber in,
The page began to tell—
'You are betrayed, oh noble King,
For powder I do smell.
Oh flee from hence, haste you away,
And I on you will wait.'
The King that hearing, presently
Leapt out the window straight.

13. One of them stood under the window,
And took him in his arm,
Saying,'Who art thou? Oh man, fear not,
For thou shalt have no harm.'
'I am an Englishman,' quoth he,
'Of Scotland I am King;
King Henry once my uncle was,
Which was of England King.'

14. Two of them took the King straightway,
And bound him hand and foot;
On a pear-tree in the orchard
This noble King they hanged.
And when the Queen heard of this news,
She sore wept for the King;
'Peace, madam,' quoth the Lord Jamie,
'You do but feign this thing.'

15. 'For why?' quoth she; 'though he were young,
None was more meet than he
To have worn the crown; for his lineage,
He came of high degree.
But now I wish my Chamberlain
Had hanged in his room,
So that the King alive had been
For to have worn the crown.'

16. Thus hath this noble King also,
His life cost, as you hear;
Therefore I say, and will do still,
He did buy gold too dear.
God grant, good Lord, with heart I pray,
Our noble Queen to guide;
And grant that never traitors false
About her Highness bide."

* Imprinted at London, by Thomas Gosson, dwelling in Paternoster Row, next the sign of the Castle."—[A broadside in English type, three columns.] I am indebted to the kindness of my friend Robert Chambers, Esq., for the communication of this curious contemporary poem, recently discovered by himself at Cambridge.


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