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Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths

Little Hawk 22 Oct 07 - 07:24 PM
Peace 22 Oct 07 - 06:35 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 22 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 07 - 01:14 PM
Little Hawk 22 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM
Donuel 22 Oct 07 - 10:55 AM
Peace 22 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,TIA 21 Oct 07 - 10:19 PM
Barry Finn 21 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM
mg 21 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 07 - 07:18 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM
GUEST,282RA 21 Oct 07 - 01:36 PM
John Hardly 21 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 07 - 12:34 PM
Ron Davies 21 Oct 07 - 12:19 PM
Little Hawk 21 Oct 07 - 11:55 AM
polaitaly 21 Oct 07 - 10:23 AM
van lingle 21 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM
Barry Finn 21 Oct 07 - 03:04 AM
Greg B 21 Oct 07 - 01:22 AM
Don Firth 21 Oct 07 - 12:18 AM
Greg B 20 Oct 07 - 11:49 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 07 - 11:30 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,282RA 20 Oct 07 - 10:59 PM
Greg B 20 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM
GUEST,282RA 20 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 07 - 10:29 PM
Greg B 20 Oct 07 - 10:25 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 10:24 PM
pdq 20 Oct 07 - 10:22 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,282RA 20 Oct 07 - 10:17 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 09:59 PM
GUEST,282RA 20 Oct 07 - 09:35 PM
Ebbie 20 Oct 07 - 08:48 PM
pdq 20 Oct 07 - 07:59 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 04:57 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 07 - 04:57 PM
Big Mick 20 Oct 07 - 04:55 PM
John Hardly 20 Oct 07 - 04:47 PM
Peace 20 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 04:25 PM
Big Mick 20 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM
John Hardly 20 Oct 07 - 02:42 PM
Don Firth 20 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM
Little Hawk 20 Oct 07 - 01:55 PM
John Hardly 20 Oct 07 - 01:43 PM
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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:24 PM

No one doesn't have to be liberal to like folk music. Burl Ives was a folksinger, and he cooperated fully with the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities as it engaged in a frenzied witchhunt through the USA's artistic community.

It's just a bit more likely that one will be "liberal" if one likes folk music, that's all... ;-) I bet we even have the odd Satanist and necrophiliac in the fold somewhere...because folk music is a broad enough scene to include just about everyone.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:35 PM

"I believe it was Peace (forgive me it the attribution is wrong) who asked me what I expected posting this thread to a folk music site full of liberals. Well, I expected pretty much the responses of the last week. BTW, I didn't think one had to be liberal to like folk music, or to have valid points regarding politics and debate."

The logic is faulty. Don't conflate two points.

1) This is a music site with liberals on it. That doesn't preclude republicans or democrats, etc.

2) You got what you expected, so quit bitchin' about it.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM

Well, go away a few days and the thing takes on a life of its own...far beyond what it's worth.

A couple of you have asked me if I started a thread on Ann Coulter. You know the answer is no. I believe this is first or second thread I've started on a political topic, and I started it in response to all the personal attacks on Ann Coulter re the Deutsch show--note that I wrote 'personal' attacks on Ms Coulter as contrasted to discussion about her ideas. Anyway, I've written what I wanted to write about both Coulter & Stark in previous posts and it suffices me.

I believe it was Peace (forgive me it the attribution is wrong) who asked me what I expected posting this thread to a folk music site full of liberals. Well, I expected pretty much the responses of the last week. BTW, I didn't think one had to be liberal to like folk music, or to have valid points regarding politics and debate.

John OTSC


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:14 PM

I don't think "amusement" in this context implies that Bush would actually be amused any more than "entertainment" in the context of TV actually means that the viewers are actually being entertained entertained. What is implied in both of these is the trivialisation of the subject matter.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM

Has it never crossed your mind, mg, that the soldiers on the other side in ANY conflict since time began also had a large constituency of people like you who were intent on supporting them through thick and thin because they were "protecting our sorry asses"?

I'm sure the same bitter words you speak against critics of our countries' war policies have been uttered by the impassioned patriots who supported the very historical causes you regard as having been unutterably evil....and with the same unquestioning fervor and support of their military that you always demonstrate. Were they any different from you?

Your side might be wrong, mg. Or they might be half-wrong. They might be led by bad leaders who lie to them. Both sides might be wrong. Soldiers on both sides might be dying for absolutely nothing.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:55 AM

I do not consider George W Bush capable of any actual human compassion regarding the death he deals out as a matter of policy.
He has been practiced in ignoring the true human suffering from the time of his sheltered youth to his skull and bones Yale years and then the learned and practiced political phraseology that defined his Texas governorship and his comments regarding the many times he personally took credit for executions.

To say that George can enjoy carnage is ridiculous. He has very little feeling or education in the real ramifications of suffering.

The skull and bones chant involves the dehumanization of murder into a simple tool that leaders use in thier craft as a clown would use make up and costumes.

You may think it is unfair to bring up the fact that George tortured and killed animals like frogs and cats as a child but I consider it important to realize that it takes a special psyche to do such things even as a child.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM

Wars happen because leaders send soldiers to fight. Soldiers go.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:19 PM

Count me in the "Stark told the truth" category (surprise, surpirse). How many times have you seen Bush refer to himself as "A War President" with a self-satisfied smirk on his face. Yes, he is amused (granted, not in the ha-ha funny sense) and this war is all about his personal ego (and his friends' fortunes), and not about freedom on the march or any other bullshit. Stark tells the truth, Coulter spews hate proaganda. Does this make me a hypocrite? (rhetorical question alert)


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM

I for one insulted no pilots, at least not those that served & please do not compare Bush along side of others that did serve. You insult them! When you say OUR sorry asses, do not include, thank you.

Barry


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: mg
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM

Probably quite a few pilots were a bit like Bush..liked to party, like to drink, would prefer not to be taken POW but, well, some did anyway. Keep on insulting them..the day will come, and it is probably not far off, when you wish we had more men and women to protect our sorry asses....and every insult adds up...throw in a few more comments about bored helicoptor gunners while you are at it. mg


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 07:18 PM

By the way, John, very glad to hear you did not vote for Mr. Bush. It's hard to imagine that any sentient being could.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM

Answer the question, John. Do you believe all politicians who stated that criticizing the Iraq war was unpatriotic or aiding the enemy should apologize--yes or no?

By the way, let me apologize for calling Ann's books excrement. That's a bit crass. Let's call them effluvia.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:36 PM

My kingdom to anyone who can make sense of John's last post.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: John Hardly
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM

"And if you, pdq and others of the dwindling group of Bush apologists"

Again, you are confusing the issue. This isn't about defending Bush. Bush was brought up to make the point that if Bush is worse, then Stark is okay. Bush was not brought into this thread for any other reason. To point this out is not defending Bush -- it is pointing out the obvious -- that some people's view is that nobody is wrong if they can find someone "wronger". It's a rationalization that children use every day. Usually parents don't let their kids get away with it. Obviously, some parents did.

Furthermore, I am not a "Bush apologist". I didn't vote for the man and I'm not, nor was I ever in favor of the war in Iraq. Not everyone who sees issues as more nuanced than "Bush is the answer to the general question: 'what is wrong with everything?'" is a "Bush apologist".

It is a very easy world for you to figure out. No gray areas. I either agree with you or I am a "Bush apologist" (read: evil).

That works pretty well on the mudcat. Good luck with that in the real world


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM

Is there some suggestion that being unkind about Bush somehow is disrespectful towards serving soldiers. I'd rather suspect that Stark's comments here might be echoed by quite a few soldiers in Iraq today.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:34 PM

John-

We'd also deeply appreciate it if all the Senators, Congressmen, and other politicians who ever described criticism of the Iraq war as being unpatriotic or aiding the enemy would apologize for what they said. I assume from your censorious tone that you'd also be in favor of that. Correct? After all it would be only fair--and I'm sure you're in favor of fairness.

And as I said, Coulter's mouth exudes a steady stream of noxious gas--the outrageous nature of which is totally on purpose, since it helps to sell the excrement she calls her books.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Ron Davies
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:19 PM

John Hardly--

As usual with polemics, your "list" leaves out options which would not be helpful to your argument.

Specifically you leave out this one--which I believe is Joe's view, and is certainly mine. Stark's quote is reprehensible and wrong, and he should retract it. But Coulter has a pattern of making such remarks--and worse--since hers are sometimes aimed at powerless people--such as the 9-11 widows who oppose Bush's war.

She is the unchallenged queen of slime.   I challenge you to find one other remark by Stark which is comparable to the one cited in this thread. That is the difference.

And if you, pdq and others of the dwindling group of Bush apologists can't see this, it confirms your--wilful-- blindness, caused by your own ideological blinders.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:55 AM

Yes, he did. I think that people who laugh at anyone else's plea for mercy are pretty much digging their own grave in a spiritual sense.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: polaitaly
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:23 AM

He (Bush) seem to think that other people's death is funny enough. When he was governor of Texas he laughed at the plea for mercy from Karla Tucker, didn't he?


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: van lingle
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM

Right on, Barry.

I remember him bouncing around on the deck of that aircraft carrier in his flight suit with his thumbs up and thinking that this is the kind of behavior we might expect from Col. Khadaffi, Idi Amin or even Saddam Hussein, not the leader of the free world. Clearly the "war president" was reveling in these proceedings which he had to know was causing the death and displacement of many thousands of Iraqis and of course the loss of American troops as well.
Sadly, Starks's comment contains an element of truth although Bush seems to have sobered up somewhat in the light of what this war has wrought.
And, John on the Sunset Coast, I can't locate the outrage for you because I'm not experiencing any toward Stark but Ebbie put to you a very fair question up the page that you have not responded to:

"...did you ever, have you ever started a thread about Coulter?"


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 03:04 AM

I see no reason to think Stark's comment is at all off base. Bush has seen fit to lie to our nation on a number of occasions, 1st & worst about the reasons of going to war which means he's traded the lives of so many to have his way on this, about torture, about domestic spying, about the health care of children, about education etc, etc, etc. To him all this is nothing more than politcial chess, secret prisons, redition, abduction & kidnapping of foreign nationals & possibility US citizens too, it seems entertaining to him to say the least, smirking all the while, while he has his way in the life & death of innocents, the fucker should be weeping! His laugh & chuckle is a death nell for what our forefathers had envisioned, he has taken the soul of our Constitution & used it to wipe his ass with. Stark was not close enough nor hard enough as far as I'm concerned but he's closer to telling the truth than most others in Congress. Bush has taken this nation & run it into a debt that will take generations to dig their way out of, he has drug our name into the bowels of hell so much so that the devil does not want to be seen as an American, he has slaughtered & shocked & awed & rained hell on enough innocent people to have himself declared as a crime against humanity & he is the one leader today that presently has no equall in the power he can wield to launch us into the new & improved next World War & he is doing just that. Where is the cry of anger?
So Stark makes a comment that's not near harsh enough & he's told to calm it down, how dare anyone one say that he's getting unfair play. Stark should be calling for his head or at the very least impeachment as should the rest of Congress!

The rest of Congress should be pulling this modern day Caesar aside & each should be putting him to the knife not protecting him from name calling or slight off handed remarks. Where's the outrage when this bastard drove us into war? When he turned to the world & said "fuck you we'll go it alone", "you're either with us or against us"!!!!!! Where's the outrage when his hand picked AG isn't fit to hold office, his sec. of defense isn't fit to hold office, Christ, he himself isn't fit to hold office, where's the outrage about this & some have the nerve to scold Stark??????

Please tell me the world's not turned upside down!!!!!!

Barry


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Greg B
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:22 AM

Well, nothing like burning up the taxpayers' kerosene to the tune
of a few thousand bucks per hour.

Then again, perhaps when you realize the possibility of getting a heat-seeking missile up your arsepipe and spending a few years as a guest of the Hanoi Hilton, more pressing 'public service' obligations
intervene...


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:18 AM

I understand that Bush rather enjoyed hot-dogging around in a Delta Dagger, and turned out to be quite a good pilot. When younger, and in his flight suit, he looked quite dashing.

That is, when he bothered to show up. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:49 PM

>I don't think he was working on his MBA is '73.

Well, he would have been according to his official bio.

Then again, maybe Daddy was just sending in the payments, since
many MBA's seem to amount to little more than paying your tuition
and showing up a coupla days a month...kind of like the reserves.

I wonder if he ever even flew that Century-Series. F102's weren't
exactly a walk in the park.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:30 PM

Brief digression of a musical nature:

pdq, I'm quite familiar with this song. In fact, I sang it in the concert that Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I did just this last Sunday (Oct. 14th). Perhaps this is what you're thinking of.

CLICKY.

Richard Dyer-Bennet has the opening line of the song you posted as "Pull off your old coat." Peter Paul and Mary, and Bud and Travis sing it as "Take off your old coat." I learned it from Richard Dyer-Bennet.

Baring-Gould's notes are as follows:   "This song has been taken down by us to two distinct tunes. We give that which is, in our opinion, the best, obtained from an old labourer, since dead, in Holcombe Burnell, N. Devon."

Another source gives the following:   

Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by Old Dan Emmet[t].
Publication: Boston: Oliver Ditson, 115 Washington St., 1853.
Form of Composition: strophic with chorus
Instrumentation: piano and voice
First Line: I just arrived in town For to pass de time away
First Line of Chorus: So take off your coat boys, And roll up your sleeves

Sam Eskin, from whom Richard Dyer-Bennet learned the song, was of the opinion that the song traveled to England (possibly from the minstrel show version), then returned, quite modified (or "folk processed") as something that might be classed as a "White Spiritual."

But, Israeli? No.

Don Firth

(Now back to our regular evisceration.)


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:00 PM

Ah, now I get your drift, 282...

Yup, you've got a good point there about the old Commander in Chief callously wasting lives. Yes, he is grotesquely unsuited to the job.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:59 PM

I don't think he was working on his MBA is '73. We don't know what he was doing because he was AWOL since '72.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM

The distinguished Mr. Stark has been serving his country
in Congress since 1973.

What was Dubya doing in '73? Working on his MBA and thanking
god that the Nixon 'peace' deal meant he didn't have to fake
illness any longer to keep his butt out of the skies over
North Vietnam.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM

>>Well, 282...maybe you should get to know a few more... (heh!)<<

I'll pass. I know more than enough.

>>The message is this: George W. Bush is a true 'lightweight' who
takes the most serious things on this earth lightly, compared
to his own ego. He is manifestly unsuited to the office.

Don't castigate Pete Stark for telling it like it is.<<

Agreed. the anti-Bushies in here castigating Stark are the typical democratic/left wing/PC cowards. "Let's play nice while they eat us alive." No way. I fight fire with fire. Americans bullshit about how wrong that is but in reality do not respsct anyone who doesn't fire back. They whine how they hat the mudslinging but simply won't vote for any politician who refuses to engage in it and every politician knows it and that is why they engage in it.

When Bush callously shouted, "BRING IT ON!" Families of miltary people became upset at his thoughtlessness. His willingness to waste lives to make himself look good was well established right there and yet there are still mental midgets here who think Bush deserves some kind of free pass when a democrat tells it like it is. Well, sorry, folks but I think Bush has been given far too many free passes in the last 7 years and he gets no quarter from me.

Any democrat who attacks gets my full support. Buy some guts, lefties!


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:29 PM

Since when is "Pull Off Your Old Coat" an Israeli folk song? Since just now?

Documentation, please!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Greg B
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:25 PM

Pete Stark is a truly distinguished member of Congress who's been
there as long as many of us have been sentient.

I don't think he says anything 'off the cuff.'

Nor do I believe that is off-base to say that Bush is taking
his responsibilities any more seriously than most of us would
take a game of chess (or maybe I should say 'Monopoly').

The message is this: George W. Bush is a true 'lightweight' who
takes the most serious things on this earth lightly, compared
to his own ego. He is manifestly unsuited to the office.

Don't castigate Pete Stark for telling it like it is.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:24 PM

Yeah, I used to listen to Joan Baez sing that one. (Dona, Dona)


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: pdq
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:22 PM

Christians and Jews who support the right of Israel to exist
know that life is a struggle. It is serious and 'for keeps'.


Dona Dona ~ Israeli folk song

On a wagon bound for market
There's a calf with a mournful eye
High above him there's a swallow
Winging swiftly through the sky

How the winds are laughing
They laugh with all their might
Laugh and laugh the whole day through
And half the summer's night
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don

Stop complaining, said the farmer
Who told you a calf to be
Why don't you have wings to fly with
Like the swallows so proud and free

How the winds are laughing
They laugh with all their might
Laugh and laugh the whole day through
And half the summer's night
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don

Calves are easily bound and slaughtered
Never knowing the reason why
But who ever treasures freedom
Like the swallow has leaned to fly

How the winds are laughing
They laugh with all their might
Laugh and laugh the whole day through
And half the summer's night
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don
Dona Dona Dona Dona
Dona Dona Dona Don


Old Coat ~ Israeli folk song

Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves,
Life is a hard road to travel, I believe.


I look to the east, I look to the west,
A youth asking fate to be rewardin.
But fortune is a blind god, flying through the clouds,
And forgettin me on this side of jordan.


Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves,
Life is a hard road to travel, I believe.


Silver spoons to some mouths, golden spoons to others,
Dare a man to change the given order.
Though they smile and tell us all of us are brothers,
Never was it true this side of jordan.


Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves,
Life is a hard road to travel, I believe.


Like some ragged owlet with its wings expanded,
Nailed to some garden gate or boardin.
Thus will I by some men all my life be branded
Never hurted none this side of jordan.


Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves,
Life is a hard road to travel, I believe.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM

Well, 282...maybe you should get to know a few more... (heh!)

Man, this thread is becoming more and more amusing as it goes along, I must say.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:17 PM

The only intelligent conservatives I know are atheists.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:59 PM

I don't get what being "religious" has to do with supporting George Bush. I really don't. Seriously! ;-) I mean, it's just downright silly to think that the one must naturally follow the other. I know a lot of religious Canadians, and I don't know a single one who thinks very well of George Bush.

But I guess it all depends on your particular variety of religion, right? Aren't the people whom Bush is fighting against in the Middle East mostly pretty religious?

What I'm saying here, folks, is this: to be "liberal" does not mean by definition that you're an atheist. To be "conservative" does not mean by definition that you're a Fundamentalist Christian. And I think it's damn silly to start trying to divide people up in that fashion, standing them on one side or the other of the imaginary line in your own head, and thinking that you are on the righteous side of that line. It's laughable.

I would love to see a very vocal interest group arise called "Atheists for George Bush" and another arise called "Born-Agains Who Hate George Bush and his Godless War". LOL! It would be damn funny, and it might help dissolve some of the dumb stereotypes out there.

Give 'em both equal time on Jerry Springer or some such show, and watch the fur fly...


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 09:35 PM

Right on, Stark! You hit it dead-to-nuts, my boy.

Nice to see a democrat actually show some balls.

Keep it up and it's slightly possible I will vote for a democrat or two in '08.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 08:48 PM

I know a number of atheists. I also know a number of atheists who despise what Bush has done and is doing to this country. There is not a one of them whose views I would call vile, no matter how intemperate their language may become.


I also don't know an atheist who 'hates' religious people. They may pity them, though. :)


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: pdq
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 07:59 PM

...about Fortney "Pete" Stark:


"Stark is the first openly nontheistic member of Congress, as announced by the Secular Coalition for America.[2] Stark acknowledged his nontheism in response to an SCA questionnaire sent to public officials in January 2007. In a statement, Stark said he is a "Unitarian who does not believe in a supreme being. I look forward to working with the Secular Coalition to stop the promotion of narrow religious beliefs in science, marriage contracts, the military and the provision of social service." On September 20, 2007, Stark reaffirmed his atheism by making a public announcement in front of the Humanist Chaplaincy at Harvard, the Harvard Law School Heathen Society, and various other atheist, agnostic, secular, humanist, and nonreligious groups."

"...Stark is the longest-serving member of Congress from California. He has been a ranking member of the Banking and Currency Committee and powerful Ways and Means Committee. His voting record is generally very liberal, as indicated in the ratings section below, and he has been voted the most liberal member of Congress for two consecutive years. He was a founding member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus."


Pete Stark hates religion and hates religious people. His hate for George W. Bush is personal and vile. He should appologise to George W Bush, Congress and the American people. Then he should think about retiring. The seat is a Democrat-safe one.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:57 PM

No, John, my position on Stark's comment is # 1 in your list. There's no good reason for what he said. It was a dumb thing to say.

To that I would add, however, the further observation that the main effect of Stark's dumbass comment, now that it has reached the media, will be to offer comfort and consolation to defenders of the legally and morally indefensible Iraq War and defenders of George Bush...therefore it's quite convenient for them...therefore they should perhaps secretly send Stark some "thank you" notes and maybe contribute quietly to his campaign fund the next time he runs in hopes that he will say further such stupid things to embarrass those who oppose the war.

What is more convenient, after all, than a political opponent who gets caught making idiotic statements?

You follow me?


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:57 PM

3. You can say Stark's comments are okay because, as long as you can find someone who is doing something worse, then Stark's rhetoric is okay. Morality on a relative scale. "I'm okay because your guy is worse". That would be yours and Don Firth's take on it.

Did I say that, John? No, I did not!!

Stark's remark was way off-base, and I indeed condemn it.

That is what I said.

You should either read more carefully (the charitable view), or stop misquoting people in your eagerness to try to discredit what they actually did say.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:55 PM

I should point out that I sent the email prior to this thread being started. I was terrificably bothered by Stark's comment. My guess is that Sins and Spaw probably did the same.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:47 PM

Yeah, but see... ALL the other threads are about ALL the other problems. It's REALLY, really hard to stay on topic -- keep your eye on the ball -- I know, but this thread is ABOUT Stark's comment.

So it leaves you with sort of four options regarding this thread:

1. You can agree with the sentiment that there is no good reason for the kind of language Stark used --that it does nothing for a civil solution to ANY problem to be so over-the-top with rhetoric like that(as the initial poster points out -- nobody seems to miss that point when entertainers like Coulter or Limbaugh shoot off, but now you can't "get it" when an actual guy with governmental authority does it). This would be the option that SINSULL, catspaw, and now Big Mick have taken as regards this thread.

2. You can say that Stark's remarks are okay because you think they are the truth. That would be Amergin's take on it.

3. You can say Stark's comments are okay because, as long as you can find someone who is doing something worse, then Stark's rhetoric is okay. Morality on a relative scale. "I'm okay because your guy is worse". That would be yours and Don Firth's take on it.

4. You could stay out of the thread if you don't have a take on Pete Stark's comment.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:30 PM

But will the apple be rotten to the core?


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:25 PM

No, John. (grin) I'm saying that they have much bigger problems to worry about right now than Mr Stark's big mouth. Whaddya think? I am telling everyone I know to email Stark and express extreme displeasure. Chongo has already done so, and he is thinking of mailing him a package with a rotten apple in it just to get the point across in no uncertain terms.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

You'll have to add me to that list. I sent him a strongly worded email expressing my displeasure and disapproval.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:42 PM

So you're saying that SINSULL and catspaw shouldn't have sent their email of displeasure with Stark's comments?


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM

So our esteemed leader is now warning us that Iran has, or soon will have, Weapons of Mass Destruction?

My goo'ness, where have we heard that before!??

As George W. Bush so wisely and eloquently said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice and—er—um—uh—well, you just can't fool me again. . . ?"

Right, Little Hawk! At the age of 14, I "had knowledge" of how to make nuclear weapons.

If I remember correctly, it was in late August or early September of 1945 that Life Magazine came out with a special issue all about the recently (and explosively) revealed atomic bomb. Along with many photographs as usual, it contained a two-page spread of technical information, complete with diagrams, on how an atomic bomb works. With the physics, known at the time by any high school physics teacher (and their brighter students), combined with a bit of tricky, but doable engineering (among other things, of getting the timing of slapping a couple of non-critical mass pieces of Uranium 235 or Plutonium together to create critical mass, along with the sudden insertion of a beryllium rod—beryllium, when bombarded by Alpha particles from the radioactive Uranium or Plutonium surrounding it, emits a shower of neutrons, which further assures that the said surrounding material will begin to react, and fission takes place; it all happens within a few microseconds). The main problem for a high school physics student would be getting the Uranium or Plutonium.

That was the atomic bomb. Now, I am a little fuzzy about the engineering of a hydrogen bomb, but I know that an H-bomb uses an atomic bomb as a trigger (!) to create sufficient heat to cause hydrogen to fuse, which, in turn, produces helium—and a whole lot of energy.

You could buy the magazine off the newsstands for 10¢. Or, since this was a special issue, it may have been 15¢. We had a subscription.

After posting this, I will quite possibly be arrested for revealing nuclear secrets.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 01:55 PM

National Lampoon used to advertise a supposed ancient Welsh self-defence technique called "Lapp-Goch". It was based on the principle that you pre-empt possible attacks by anyone else who you think might someday attack you by attacking and killing them first! ;-) It was obviously a joke...

But that is exactly what the Bush administration did to Iraq, and is now threatening to do to Iran and/or Syria. Attack on mere suspicion that the other guy might someday do something!

That's insane. It's criminal. It's ludicrous. And yet it is taken seriously by a large number of Americans and considered to be perfectly okay.

Simply unbelievable. This is the kind of thing the Nazis were doing in 1939-45 when they attacked other nations...this bizarre double-speak of accusing others of what you yourself intend to do, and then doing it. It is no less of a travesty than that.

I hope that Mr Gates and other more sensible people in the administration manage to prevent it from happening one more time, because it is leading slowly and surely to a Third World War...one that will be caused not by Iran, but by the USA...the country that openly subscribes to Lapp-Goch.


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Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths
From: John Hardly
Date: 20 Oct 07 - 01:43 PM

As long as you can find someone who is, or has done something worse, anything is okay.


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