Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM Well, 282...maybe you should get to know a few more... (heh!) Man, this thread is becoming more and more amusing as it goes along, I must say. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: pdq Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:22 PM Christians and Jews who support the right of Israel to exist know that life is a struggle. It is serious and 'for keeps'. Dona Dona ~ Israeli folk song On a wagon bound for market There's a calf with a mournful eye High above him there's a swallow Winging swiftly through the sky How the winds are laughing They laugh with all their might Laugh and laugh the whole day through And half the summer's night Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Stop complaining, said the farmer Who told you a calf to be Why don't you have wings to fly with Like the swallows so proud and free How the winds are laughing They laugh with all their might Laugh and laugh the whole day through And half the summer's night Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Calves are easily bound and slaughtered Never knowing the reason why But who ever treasures freedom Like the swallow has leaned to fly How the winds are laughing They laugh with all their might Laugh and laugh the whole day through And half the summer's night Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Dona Don Old Coat ~ Israeli folk song Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves, Life is a hard road to travel, I believe. I look to the east, I look to the west, A youth asking fate to be rewardin. But fortune is a blind god, flying through the clouds, And forgettin me on this side of jordan. Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves, Life is a hard road to travel, I believe. Silver spoons to some mouths, golden spoons to others, Dare a man to change the given order. Though they smile and tell us all of us are brothers, Never was it true this side of jordan. Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves, Life is a hard road to travel, I believe. Like some ragged owlet with its wings expanded, Nailed to some garden gate or boardin. Thus will I by some men all my life be branded Never hurted none this side of jordan. Take off your old coat and roll up your sleeves, Life is a hard road to travel, I believe. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:24 PM Yeah, I used to listen to Joan Baez sing that one. (Dona, Dona) |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Greg B Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:25 PM Pete Stark is a truly distinguished member of Congress who's been there as long as many of us have been sentient. I don't think he says anything 'off the cuff.' Nor do I believe that is off-base to say that Bush is taking his responsibilities any more seriously than most of us would take a game of chess (or maybe I should say 'Monopoly'). The message is this: George W. Bush is a true 'lightweight' who takes the most serious things on this earth lightly, compared to his own ego. He is manifestly unsuited to the office. Don't castigate Pete Stark for telling it like it is. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Don Firth Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:29 PM Since when is "Pull Off Your Old Coat" an Israeli folk song? Since just now? Documentation, please! Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: GUEST,282RA Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:35 PM >>Well, 282...maybe you should get to know a few more... (heh!)<< I'll pass. I know more than enough. >>The message is this: George W. Bush is a true 'lightweight' who takes the most serious things on this earth lightly, compared to his own ego. He is manifestly unsuited to the office. Don't castigate Pete Stark for telling it like it is.<< Agreed. the anti-Bushies in here castigating Stark are the typical democratic/left wing/PC cowards. "Let's play nice while they eat us alive." No way. I fight fire with fire. Americans bullshit about how wrong that is but in reality do not respsct anyone who doesn't fire back. They whine how they hat the mudslinging but simply won't vote for any politician who refuses to engage in it and every politician knows it and that is why they engage in it. When Bush callously shouted, "BRING IT ON!" Families of miltary people became upset at his thoughtlessness. His willingness to waste lives to make himself look good was well established right there and yet there are still mental midgets here who think Bush deserves some kind of free pass when a democrat tells it like it is. Well, sorry, folks but I think Bush has been given far too many free passes in the last 7 years and he gets no quarter from me. Any democrat who attacks gets my full support. Buy some guts, lefties! |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Greg B Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM The distinguished Mr. Stark has been serving his country in Congress since 1973. What was Dubya doing in '73? Working on his MBA and thanking god that the Nixon 'peace' deal meant he didn't have to fake illness any longer to keep his butt out of the skies over North Vietnam. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: GUEST,282RA Date: 20 Oct 07 - 10:59 PM I don't think he was working on his MBA is '73. We don't know what he was doing because he was AWOL since '72. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:00 PM Ah, now I get your drift, 282... Yup, you've got a good point there about the old Commander in Chief callously wasting lives. Yes, he is grotesquely unsuited to the job. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Don Firth Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:30 PM Brief digression of a musical nature: pdq, I'm quite familiar with this song. In fact, I sang it in the concert that Bob Nelson (Deckman) and I did just this last Sunday (Oct. 14th). Perhaps this is what you're thinking of. CLICKY. Richard Dyer-Bennet has the opening line of the song you posted as "Pull off your old coat." Peter Paul and Mary, and Bud and Travis sing it as "Take off your old coat." I learned it from Richard Dyer-Bennet. Baring-Gould's notes are as follows: "This song has been taken down by us to two distinct tunes. We give that which is, in our opinion, the best, obtained from an old labourer, since dead, in Holcombe Burnell, N. Devon." Another source gives the following: Composer, Lyricist, Arranger: Composed by Old Dan Emmet[t]. Publication: Boston: Oliver Ditson, 115 Washington St., 1853. Form of Composition: strophic with chorus Instrumentation: piano and voice First Line: I just arrived in town For to pass de time away First Line of Chorus: So take off your coat boys, And roll up your sleeves Sam Eskin, from whom Richard Dyer-Bennet learned the song, was of the opinion that the song traveled to England (possibly from the minstrel show version), then returned, quite modified (or "folk processed") as something that might be classed as a "White Spiritual." But, Israeli? No. Don Firth (Now back to our regular evisceration.) |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Greg B Date: 20 Oct 07 - 11:49 PM >I don't think he was working on his MBA is '73. Well, he would have been according to his official bio. Then again, maybe Daddy was just sending in the payments, since many MBA's seem to amount to little more than paying your tuition and showing up a coupla days a month...kind of like the reserves. I wonder if he ever even flew that Century-Series. F102's weren't exactly a walk in the park. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Don Firth Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:18 AM I understand that Bush rather enjoyed hot-dogging around in a Delta Dagger, and turned out to be quite a good pilot. When younger, and in his flight suit, he looked quite dashing. That is, when he bothered to show up. . . . Don Firth |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Greg B Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:22 AM Well, nothing like burning up the taxpayers' kerosene to the tune of a few thousand bucks per hour. Then again, perhaps when you realize the possibility of getting a heat-seeking missile up your arsepipe and spending a few years as a guest of the Hanoi Hilton, more pressing 'public service' obligations intervene... |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Oct 07 - 03:04 AM I see no reason to think Stark's comment is at all off base. Bush has seen fit to lie to our nation on a number of occasions, 1st & worst about the reasons of going to war which means he's traded the lives of so many to have his way on this, about torture, about domestic spying, about the health care of children, about education etc, etc, etc. To him all this is nothing more than politcial chess, secret prisons, redition, abduction & kidnapping of foreign nationals & possibility US citizens too, it seems entertaining to him to say the least, smirking all the while, while he has his way in the life & death of innocents, the fucker should be weeping! His laugh & chuckle is a death nell for what our forefathers had envisioned, he has taken the soul of our Constitution & used it to wipe his ass with. Stark was not close enough nor hard enough as far as I'm concerned but he's closer to telling the truth than most others in Congress. Bush has taken this nation & run it into a debt that will take generations to dig their way out of, he has drug our name into the bowels of hell so much so that the devil does not want to be seen as an American, he has slaughtered & shocked & awed & rained hell on enough innocent people to have himself declared as a crime against humanity & he is the one leader today that presently has no equall in the power he can wield to launch us into the new & improved next World War & he is doing just that. Where is the cry of anger? So Stark makes a comment that's not near harsh enough & he's told to calm it down, how dare anyone one say that he's getting unfair play. Stark should be calling for his head or at the very least impeachment as should the rest of Congress! The rest of Congress should be pulling this modern day Caesar aside & each should be putting him to the knife not protecting him from name calling or slight off handed remarks. Where's the outrage when this bastard drove us into war? When he turned to the world & said "fuck you we'll go it alone", "you're either with us or against us"!!!!!! Where's the outrage when his hand picked AG isn't fit to hold office, his sec. of defense isn't fit to hold office, Christ, he himself isn't fit to hold office, where's the outrage about this & some have the nerve to scold Stark?????? Please tell me the world's not turned upside down!!!!!! Barry |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: van lingle Date: 21 Oct 07 - 09:15 AM Right on, Barry. I remember him bouncing around on the deck of that aircraft carrier in his flight suit with his thumbs up and thinking that this is the kind of behavior we might expect from Col. Khadaffi, Idi Amin or even Saddam Hussein, not the leader of the free world. Clearly the "war president" was reveling in these proceedings which he had to know was causing the death and displacement of many thousands of Iraqis and of course the loss of American troops as well. Sadly, Starks's comment contains an element of truth although Bush seems to have sobered up somewhat in the light of what this war has wrought. And, John on the Sunset Coast, I can't locate the outrage for you because I'm not experiencing any toward Stark but Ebbie put to you a very fair question up the page that you have not responded to: "...did you ever, have you ever started a thread about Coulter?" |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: polaitaly Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:23 AM He (Bush) seem to think that other people's death is funny enough. When he was governor of Texas he laughed at the plea for mercy from Karla Tucker, didn't he? |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 21 Oct 07 - 11:55 AM Yes, he did. I think that people who laugh at anyone else's plea for mercy are pretty much digging their own grave in a spiritual sense. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:19 PM John Hardly-- As usual with polemics, your "list" leaves out options which would not be helpful to your argument. Specifically you leave out this one--which I believe is Joe's view, and is certainly mine. Stark's quote is reprehensible and wrong, and he should retract it. But Coulter has a pattern of making such remarks--and worse--since hers are sometimes aimed at powerless people--such as the 9-11 widows who oppose Bush's war. She is the unchallenged queen of slime. I challenge you to find one other remark by Stark which is comparable to the one cited in this thread. That is the difference. And if you, pdq and others of the dwindling group of Bush apologists can't see this, it confirms your--wilful-- blindness, caused by your own ideological blinders. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 07 - 12:34 PM John- We'd also deeply appreciate it if all the Senators, Congressmen, and other politicians who ever described criticism of the Iraq war as being unpatriotic or aiding the enemy would apologize for what they said. I assume from your censorious tone that you'd also be in favor of that. Correct? After all it would be only fair--and I'm sure you're in favor of fairness. And as I said, Coulter's mouth exudes a steady stream of noxious gas--the outrageous nature of which is totally on purpose, since it helps to sell the excrement she calls her books. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM Is there some suggestion that being unkind about Bush somehow is disrespectful towards serving soldiers. I'd rather suspect that Stark's comments here might be echoed by quite a few soldiers in Iraq today. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: John Hardly Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:07 PM "And if you, pdq and others of the dwindling group of Bush apologists" Again, you are confusing the issue. This isn't about defending Bush. Bush was brought up to make the point that if Bush is worse, then Stark is okay. Bush was not brought into this thread for any other reason. To point this out is not defending Bush -- it is pointing out the obvious -- that some people's view is that nobody is wrong if they can find someone "wronger". It's a rationalization that children use every day. Usually parents don't let their kids get away with it. Obviously, some parents did. Furthermore, I am not a "Bush apologist". I didn't vote for the man and I'm not, nor was I ever in favor of the war in Iraq. Not everyone who sees issues as more nuanced than "Bush is the answer to the general question: 'what is wrong with everything?'" is a "Bush apologist". It is a very easy world for you to figure out. No gray areas. I either agree with you or I am a "Bush apologist" (read: evil). That works pretty well on the mudcat. Good luck with that in the real world |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: GUEST,282RA Date: 21 Oct 07 - 01:36 PM My kingdom to anyone who can make sense of John's last post. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:39 PM Answer the question, John. Do you believe all politicians who stated that criticizing the Iraq war was unpatriotic or aiding the enemy should apologize--yes or no? By the way, let me apologize for calling Ann's books excrement. That's a bit crass. Let's call them effluvia. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Ron Davies Date: 21 Oct 07 - 07:18 PM By the way, John, very glad to hear you did not vote for Mr. Bush. It's hard to imagine that any sentient being could. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: mg Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:12 PM Probably quite a few pilots were a bit like Bush..liked to party, like to drink, would prefer not to be taken POW but, well, some did anyway. Keep on insulting them..the day will come, and it is probably not far off, when you wish we had more men and women to protect our sorry asses....and every insult adds up...throw in a few more comments about bored helicoptor gunners while you are at it. mg |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Barry Finn Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:52 PM I for one insulted no pilots, at least not those that served & please do not compare Bush along side of others that did serve. You insult them! When you say OUR sorry asses, do not include, thank you. Barry |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: GUEST,TIA Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:19 PM Count me in the "Stark told the truth" category (surprise, surpirse). How many times have you seen Bush refer to himself as "A War President" with a self-satisfied smirk on his face. Yes, he is amused (granted, not in the ha-ha funny sense) and this war is all about his personal ego (and his friends' fortunes), and not about freedom on the march or any other bullshit. Stark tells the truth, Coulter spews hate proaganda. Does this make me a hypocrite? (rhetorical question alert) |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Peace Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:17 AM Wars happen because leaders send soldiers to fight. Soldiers go. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Donuel Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:55 AM I do not consider George W Bush capable of any actual human compassion regarding the death he deals out as a matter of policy. He has been practiced in ignoring the true human suffering from the time of his sheltered youth to his skull and bones Yale years and then the learned and practiced political phraseology that defined his Texas governorship and his comments regarding the many times he personally took credit for executions. To say that George can enjoy carnage is ridiculous. He has very little feeling or education in the real ramifications of suffering. The skull and bones chant involves the dehumanization of murder into a simple tool that leaders use in thier craft as a clown would use make up and costumes. You may think it is unfair to bring up the fact that George tortured and killed animals like frogs and cats as a child but I consider it important to realize that it takes a special psyche to do such things even as a child. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM Has it never crossed your mind, mg, that the soldiers on the other side in ANY conflict since time began also had a large constituency of people like you who were intent on supporting them through thick and thin because they were "protecting our sorry asses"? I'm sure the same bitter words you speak against critics of our countries' war policies have been uttered by the impassioned patriots who supported the very historical causes you regard as having been unutterably evil....and with the same unquestioning fervor and support of their military that you always demonstrate. Were they any different from you? Your side might be wrong, mg. Or they might be half-wrong. They might be led by bad leaders who lie to them. Both sides might be wrong. Soldiers on both sides might be dying for absolutely nothing. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:14 PM I don't think "amusement" in this context implies that Bush would actually be amused any more than "entertainment" in the context of TV actually means that the viewers are actually being entertained entertained. What is implied in both of these is the trivialisation of the subject matter. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:31 PM Well, go away a few days and the thing takes on a life of its own...far beyond what it's worth. A couple of you have asked me if I started a thread on Ann Coulter. You know the answer is no. I believe this is first or second thread I've started on a political topic, and I started it in response to all the personal attacks on Ann Coulter re the Deutsch show--note that I wrote 'personal' attacks on Ms Coulter as contrasted to discussion about her ideas. Anyway, I've written what I wanted to write about both Coulter & Stark in previous posts and it suffices me. I believe it was Peace (forgive me it the attribution is wrong) who asked me what I expected posting this thread to a folk music site full of liberals. Well, I expected pretty much the responses of the last week. BTW, I didn't think one had to be liberal to like folk music, or to have valid points regarding politics and debate. John OTSC |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Peace Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:35 PM "I believe it was Peace (forgive me it the attribution is wrong) who asked me what I expected posting this thread to a folk music site full of liberals. Well, I expected pretty much the responses of the last week. BTW, I didn't think one had to be liberal to like folk music, or to have valid points regarding politics and debate." The logic is faulty. Don't conflate two points. 1) This is a music site with liberals on it. That doesn't preclude republicans or democrats, etc. 2) You got what you expected, so quit bitchin' about it. |
Subject: RE: Rep. Stark/Pres. Amused by Troop Deaths From: Little Hawk Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:24 PM No one doesn't have to be liberal to like folk music. Burl Ives was a folksinger, and he cooperated fully with the House Committee on UnAmerican Activities as it engaged in a frenzied witchhunt through the USA's artistic community. It's just a bit more likely that one will be "liberal" if one likes folk music, that's all... ;-) I bet we even have the odd Satanist and necrophiliac in the fold somewhere...because folk music is a broad enough scene to include just about everyone. |
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