Speaking ill of the dead.

Subject: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:33 PM

Alex Campbell did more to promote and popularise folk music in the UK than any of those who seem intent on tarnishing his reputation. Yes he did some iffy nights, but I've watched him being bought drinks by admirers and hangers on, all of which contributed towards those nights when he was below par. If they admired him they should have thought of him and not bought the drinks, if Alex was stronger, he would have taken less of those drinks. There are so many 'if onlys'. However if you think it is fair to adopt the holier than thou attitudes taken by a couple of posters on here towards Alex, and rubbishing the man and all he did over many years, then I for one am disgusted by your bad manners, lack of respect, and gratitude. That man is one of the reasons that there were so many folk clubs, and audiences to fill them for many years.
BTW I've seen one well respected member of a once popular folk group, too pissed to hold on to his instrument on stage. I bet you just can't wait for him to die so you can slag him off!!
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:35 PM

Don't suppose you'd like to add MacColl to that appeal would you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Geordie-Peorgie
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 02:38 PM

Aye! Well said Giok!

Sorry Jim!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 05:51 PM

I think I must have been Alex Campbell's number 1 fan in Yorkshire. We always had a great evening when he was booked in the local clubs and I still enjoy listening to his LPs even though I've listened to them many times over the years.

I think the stories he told were part of his charm.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:23 PM

Presumably this thread has its source in some other thread I haven't seen. I don't think there are very many people who knew Alex Campbell who didn't admire and love him. He drank more than was good for him, and that was a shame, and maybe if he hadn't he'd still be with us, and I wish he was.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: skipy
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 06:40 PM

That Hilter bloke was pratt!
'es dead!
Skipy

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 07:08 PM

I never claimed to know him. I do know I went to one of his gigs and he was awful. And that was his reputation at the time as well.

I have also read what a great performer and cultured man he was. Not the night I saw him he wasn't.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 07:12 PM

It always seems hard for people to tell the truth.
Alex, in his prime was magic, unfortunately he became an alcoholic, as did Jake Thackray, Colin Scott and others on the circuit at the time.
It's an illness, and it kills, both talent and people.
Remember them in their pomp and sometimes check your own intake. It can happen to anyone.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Alba
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 08:57 PM

"I never claimed to know him"   The remarks that you have posted about Alex only serve to confirm that fact. Puzzling then that you feel you are in a position to bad mouth the man what with you not knowing him at all!

You cannot claim to know him and now you never will.
That is, without a doubt, your loss.
Sadly,
J

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Oct 07 - 10:20 PM

And clearly you don't know Dave, since you accuse him of 'bad mouthing' (which he does not do) when he is merely telling the truth; however unpalatable you may find it.

On the general point, we do no favours to those who are no longer with us by glossing over their faults. The truth includes their achievements, certainly; but also their failings. Is there anything particularly 'holier than thou' about that?

This new thread needs to be put in proper context. A few comments about Alex Campbell were made in the course of a very long, recent discussion on Ewan MacColl in which a good few people, many of whom didn't know what they were talking about, said some pretty nasty things about MacColl. Campbell came up briefly as an example of someone who, as a rule, doesn't attract that kind of posthumous abuse; though, as it was pointed out, his later career was less than glorious. That's all. It was at most peripheral to the main discussion, and I had already forgotten it.

I don't know that starting a new discussion that will only draw attention to that serves Campbell's memory particularly well. I never met him, and never saw him perform; but I have known others who took a similar road; and drug-abuse has for centuries been an occupational hazard for the professional entertainer.

Tony Capstick, for instance, was a fine singer and a considerable wit in his day (and even managed a chart hit, albeit with a novelty number) but in later years he was mostly just drunk and incapable. I prefer to remember the good times, but denying the bad would be foolish. The dead who are worth remembering are worth remembering as they really were, not as we would like them to have been.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:36 AM

Fine post, Giok.

Every person stricken with this malady needs our compassion, not a bad mouthing, alive or dead.
I know what I am talking about having seen too much of it in my not so short life.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: treewind
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:52 AM

Hey skipy, I don't think Godwin's law works on Mudcat.

A.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:33 AM

As I posted on another thread, I met Alex Campbell on a couple of occasions. Once, at a folk club in Bayswat6er, he walked in while I was playing, made a huge racket and then, after I'd finished, came up, apologised for the interruption and said:'The Robin Hood song you sang first was OK but the other American one was shite". We both had a good laugh and, needless to say, a small libation or two.

I really liked him. There was no pretentious crap about him

Hell, yeah!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: OldPossum
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:48 AM

Alex Campbell was also mentioned (not always favourably) in the fRoots thread. I only saw Alex Campbell live once, and that was just a couple of years before he died. He was absolutely brilliant. I particularly remember him singing 'When I paint my masterpiece'. You could have heard a pin drop, and the applause afterwards was tremendous.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Goldrush Paul
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 03:58 AM

Sadly that is the way of the world, people will bad mouth people and they don't even know them, that should be a lesson to us all. I've heard good and bad reports about Alex Campbell but the music I have heard of his is wonderful and that will live on.

Paul

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

On the BBC Folk & Acoustic board, there's a thread commenting on Davey Graham's poor performances due to his being drunk. A love of the booze does seem to be an occupational hazard of a great many talented folk (and other) performers. You can make up your own list. But perhaps we should just bear in mind that everyone has different personality quirks, good and bad, that make us what we are. Maybe the propensity to overindulgence in alcohol is the other side of the coin of the creative temperament that makes them such good artistes – and the one would not exist without the other.

Having said that, giving up the booze does not seem to have adversely affected Bert Jansch's performance.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:04 AM

Alex Campbell's career continued right up to his death which is a testament to his popularity, not only in this country but around Europe.

From the notes on the "Alex Campbell sings Folk" LP you can extract the following "Alex is a natural entertainer with an irresistible magic that communicates to his colleagues and his audiences with the result that everybody gives of their best. Hence the tremendous atmosphere of a Campbell session .......... we recorded him in his natural habitat holding a guitar in front of an audience ....... singing folksongs without any tricks of orchestration, without echo chambers, without fussy arrangements and without those little commercialisms which are too often thought necessary to the success of folk song on record."

For those of us who did like him and his music the above quote says it all.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

Alex Campbells name came up om the froots board thread.
please see Diane Easbys comments and my replies.
I saw Alex[ several times] approximately 1974,he was very, very, funny[ imo],and was on the occasions, I saw him a superb entertainer/ performer.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:31 AM

Folkie Dave saw him once,typical generalising from one particular occasion.Personally I would rather see Alex Campbell sober or not,than watch Sheffield United attempt to play football or fisticuffs,each to their own.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:48 AM

With you on that Cap'n.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:12 AM

I suppose the thing is to hope people remember you on the good days. If you thought they were only going to remeber bad days, crap performances, silly things that you said when you were s drunk, the time they were stuck in a lift with you and you farted....

The thing about mudcat, it gives you s a fair idea of who will be shouting loudest on the day of judgement.

We need a new word for these people....judgementalists!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:15 AM

What do you do if you meet someone on a good day, and they subsequently turn out to be a shit?
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:30 AM

You cherish the memory of that first illusion.

If they get you to sign up for some double glazing - that's unfortunate. If you marry them, that's more of a problem. If you book them for your folk club; pay them after the raffle, get pissed and slink out before the end.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:45 AM

Dick, I was reporting that people (club goers) wanted us (club organisers) to book Alex Campbell and when they went to see him they no longer wanted to book him and I explained the reason why they no longer wanted to book him. We never booked him because at that time he had two reputations and one of them was "unreliable", and going to see him confirmed that reputation. That is not generalising from the particular. And I did not make it clear - but it was not just me.

If instead we had booked him on his other reputation as an all-round good singer and entertainer - a reputation which I have never denied the existence of - and the Alex Campbell that we saw turned up - what would people have thought of the club organisers? Especially since they saw us there watching him!!

Dick I watch all Sheffield United's home games when I am in the UK. If I am likely to be away I go to reserve games to get my fix. I first went to see them in 1959. I suspect I have seen them more than you have, and they are much worse at the moment than even you could dream about.

They could be overtaken by Sheffield W*dn*sd*y for the first time in seven years tomorrow night. The shame.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 11:15 AM

The posting was mine, and I make no apology for it.

I have seen Alex Campbell at MSG - hosted him, even - when he has been good.

I have also seen him when he should have been in concert at the Golden Lion,and he could not stand for booze and dope, let alone sing, or even speak.

I have no wish to re-ignite the controversy over Ewan McColl. I never saw him the worse for wear.

Don't preach at, or to, me - I have the alcohol sickness. I deal with it one day at a time. It is one of the reasons why I gave up singing, and the Morris.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:06 PM

I only got to know Alex Campbell in the months before his death, by which time he could no longer sing (a result of throat surgery). He was a most interesting man to spend time with and I urged him to begin writing his autobiography but sadly, he just wasn't interested.

He was by this time living in Denmark, supported apparently by a small pension bestowed by the Danish Government on "artists of note". When asked about the "old days" he recalled that it was not unusual for him to have spent his folk club fee at the bar before the night was over buying drink for himself and whatever "friends" might be with him. Seemingly, it was always Saturday night when Alex was in town.

I remember once buying tickets for a Ewan MacColl/Peggy Seeger concert and turning up on the night only to be told that they wouldn't be appearing as Ewan was ill. Though disappointed, I understood. Illness is usually something beyond our control and let's face it, folk music is not a matter of life and death (sorry, Bill Shankly).

Clearly, in Alex Campbell's case, he had a long struggle with alcohol and found himself in an environment which nurtured his addiction. Not that he was unique. The folk scene in the UK and Ireland has had no shortage of performers who have struggled with drink and however good their "good" nights were, their "bad" nights could have been equally woeful.

So while I wouldn't dream of criticizing anyone for the state of their health, I do not feel that we should bestow saint-like qualities on those who have gone before. No matter how much we may have admired them and no matter the huge influence some of them had, they were human. MacColl and Campbell, each in his own way, played a huge role in taking us to where we are today and (like it or not) they will continue to be discussed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:13 PM

I'm not trying to canonise Alex, but I do want his positive contributions, which far outweigh the negative, to be given due respect.
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: oggie
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:42 PM

Apologies if this is well known but I think this article is a fair summation of the man that I saw a couple of times back in the seventies, warts and all Alex Campbell in Living Tradition

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 01:56 PM

Written by the great Ewan MacVicar - occasional mudcat contribtor. I've read two of his books so far, and I can thoroughly recommend them.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 02:02 PM

Thankyou,Oggie.
Alex Campbell was what the folk scene used to be about.
I shall never forget him,a very very funny entertainer,who gave me some of the funniest nights, I have ever had.RIP Alex Campbell and thanks.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 05:46 PM

I never knew him, never met or saw him, but I don't say anything after someone is dead that I wouldn't have said while they were alive. I don't believe in 'whitewashing'.

But if he was an alcoholic, that is a 'fact'. It IS a disease, and should be treated as such, gossip notwithstanding.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:12 PM

Well, now that the cat has come back, and I am unwinding after lecturing, I stored these thoughts last night while tech probs were present:

I fear that some espousers of "standards" regard him as the source or primary propagator of a deep seated mentality about folk music, one that they regard as being the cause of the decline (if there is a decline) of folk music. They appear to refer to him as the founder of the "GEFF Brigade" - "GEFF" standing for "Good enough for folk".

We all make our own excuses for our own failings, and a little bit of self-effacement is probably good for most of us.

The only time I saw him was at Nottingham University, and the first half was not good - red eyes, shaking hands, hoarse voice. I was behind him at the buttery bar in the interval, and saw him get a pint glass filled with vodka, down it while the barman (Karl) was taking his money to the till, and require a refill when Karl got back with his change.

The second half was fine.

Whether it would have been so after a third pint of vodka I cannot say. I don't think that diminishes what he did achieve. I still have some vinyl he recorded, but I don't play it much. I do still play the CDs of the early Martin Carthy stuff, and some Jansch and Renbourn, and I simply live on the Young Tradition. Horses for courses (if not for folk music). It seems to me he was a respected performer for much of his day. That he sought to excuse his own failings (we all have them) ought not to damn him, and it ought not to drive us to be clinically precise about what we do. The passion is the most important thing, and that, I think, he had.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 06:41 PM

QUOTE: 'and I simply live on the Young Tradition.'

So, Richard, whilst we might disagree about a few things, we can definitely agree on what constitutes pure genius. Oh that I could have seen them play live... (one of the few disadvantages of being born in 1963). Did you ever have that pleasure? Seeing them live I mean, not being born in 1963.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:20 PM

YT.

Saw them on a number of occasions - and each time they were great. Heather - the only one still alive - lives in New York and works (last I heard) for SETI. (Look it up!!). She knits too.

Also one of the few qualified tank drivers on the folk scene. Born in Sheffield of course.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,pat cooksey
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 07:36 PM

unlike some who have posted here I did know alex,naturally he was not allways at his best and his alcohol consumption was sometimes over the top. During my times running folk clubs I booked him three times, and although he tended to ramble a bit between songs he did three great nights, all three gigs were sold out which despite his high fee we always made a profit on the nights he played.
Alex Campbell was, together with Hamish Imlach, Derroll Adams, and John Macintosh,instrumental in opening up Folk Music in Europe, and
paved the way for many artists to come.
In his later years Alex was unable to sing, and lived his final years in Denmark where he was much loved, his friends organised several benefit concerts for him his songs being sung by others, Alex attended some of these and was very touched that people thought so highly of him.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Effsee
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:23 PM

You are absolutely right Pat. I never met Alex, but from the live recordings I've heard and the tales of people who did, he was a guy I would loved to have met. He was one of the major trailblazers into the European scene without a doubt, and the folk scene could do with more of the "characters" of his ilk. Just ask Alan Taylor!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 09:56 PM

http://www.seti.org/



It figures. I hear she still sings, but mainly filk, and that one of her great regrets is that no record company will let her put on a CD for distribution either of the great songs from the Pratchett novels "The Wizard's staff has a knob on the end" or "The Hedgehog can never be buggered at all".


No, Nigel, I discovered the YT after 1972 via an LP that my late wife had. In the 60s it was rare for me to go to folk stuff, my seeing Alex Campbell was quite by chance, I paid my way through my law degree by working as a mobile DJ and my music was mainly heavy rock and electric blues.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Oct 07 - 10:26 PM

Richard, stop making this stuff up. Heather is quite active in the NYC area Pinewoods folk organization. 'The Curate's Egg with the group Poor Old Horse is her last recording as far as I know.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM

Nice one, Richard. I saw YT in concert at MSG many years ago.

I have a cassette tape of their first LP with 'The Innocent Hare', and 'The Knight and the Shepherd's Daughter', as two of the tracks.

Peter Bellamy sang as narrator on this ; Royston Wood as the 'knight'.

Heather Woods's comment was 'that left me with being either the kinght's horse or the Shepherd's Daughter'.

To which Royston Wood replied 'no problem - they both get ridden'.

Damned if I ever learned the title of the LP. Is there any of their work available on CD, do you know ?

(I financed some of the fees for my LLM out of gig fees in the days before John Barleycorn got to me.)

De mortuis nisi bonum, pissed or sober.

I repeat - I have seen Alex in top form, and I have seen him in appalling form. Hwyl, Bryn

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:04 AM

I certainly didn't make it up about Heather Wood, but I no longer remember where I got it from. It seems consistent with her Aol homepage http://members.aol.com/hwood50/hw/faq.html


Yes, you can get a CD from the USA of their first album "The Young Tradition" and also "So Cheerfully Round". It is, if you listen hard, re-mastered from vinyl. As far as I know the original tapes are now with Castle Music (they stayed with Transatlantic for a long time), and also as far as I know the original Performers' Protection Act consents were for a period of 30 years, and have expired, and the Bellamy Estate will not I think re-authorise, so official re-releases are not lawfully possible in the UK. I hope I am wrong, but htat was the way I last heard it.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

Heather sang at one of the concerts at the greatly lamented "National" Festival at Sutton Bonnington some years ago. It was lovely to hear her again.

I have fond memories of meeting the YT and taking them out to an Indian reataurant before they were performing at our local folk club back in the mists of time.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:28 AM

Richard, per Heather's website, "Castle Communications in England has re-released the first two Young Tradition albums on CD." They, along with some other tasty recordings, are available from Grass Roots Productions. (Appears to be Heather's)

As to the actual subject (don't look so shocked), there's none can judge what interferes with enjoying a performance for anyone but themselves. Some people find a singer's politics makes them cringe, others don't like a singers appearance, religion, addictions or any number of things.

A good friend once talked to me of the hazards of being known for anything above the music. When some walk into a room, people think, "Here he is - I hear he's a wonderful musician." Others walk in the room and people think, "So this is the drunk? The misogynist? The racist?" There is a very great danger that someone can find their reputation dominated by rumors and incidents magnified in the tabloid brains of a mob looking for any weakness.

For the listener, we must recognize everyone has weaknesses. If we can take in what we enjoy and ignore the rest, we're better off. Sometimes we can't do that. It's just a personal thing, and it does absolutely no good to tell someone to change their mind and either ignore a performer's shortcomings or be as offended as you. We just have to focus on what we love.

...unless what we love is telling other people what their opinions should be.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Well I liked YT as group that's for certain.
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: My guru always said
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:36 AM

Richard, I used to have a CD which featured both of those 'Pratchett' songs on it. Lent it to another Catter a few years ago & don't suppose I'll ever see it again *sob*

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Betsy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:50 AM

I believe one can, on very special occasions speak ill of the dead. Hitler , Mussolini, some would say Franco, and other people considered considered to have been despots - leading their populations into war and all the associated horrors.
To speal ill of people who on occasions displayed frailties in their lives, but, overall attempted (and in most part succeeded) in bringing some enjoyment fun and pleasure to their audiences is a complete abhoration.
I have fond memories of Alex - the first time I saw him (obviously when I didn't know him ) the audience was eating out of his hand.
Years later (he was drinking a non-alcohlic wine ) we had a great long yarn for hours , at an agents house in the Midlands ,and he was a goldmine of information, stories, humour and song. Oh Yes !! - larger than life, a few tall stories , but a lovely man and as someone said earlier , a real character , the type of which, the sanitised folk scene is now sadly lacking.
RIP Alex.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:02 AM

somone said he was an alcoholic,lets sort this out.
He may have become an alcoholic,at one time he was just a social drinker,this is what happens to a lot of alcoholics.
Alex Campbell, was someone who gave alot of people pleasure.for a relatively short period of his life he had an illness, alcoholism,can we not remember him for all the pleasure he gave,and his music,rather than his illness.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:31 AM

I made the original posting, Goddess be kind to me, because it seemed to me that a number of people allegedly repeated scurrility about Ewan McColl when it was patent that said people had never met Ewan McColl.

I have heard people say 'Alex Campbell is on at Folk Club tonight. He;'ll be pissed out of his head so we'll have a good laugh'.

I have treasured memories of Alex Campbell.

As an alcoholic myself, in recovery just for today, I think I have a better understanding than those of you who are not alcoholic.

That said : there might well have been other people at Folk Club who knew Alex by reputation as a talented performer. Waht must they have thought when a shambling drunk who couldn't sing two consecutive verses of a song tookj the stage?

And before anyone who is not alcoholic weighs in - been there, done that, given the tee-shirt to the jumble sale - but never, never on stage whilst being paid a fee for singing.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:21 PM

Alex Campbell was a professional singer, i.e., he relied on performing to earn his living and to support his family. Would you have preferred, Mr. Pugh, that he would have quit singing during his drinking years and taken up another occupation - as a lawyer perhaps?

Are you telling me that you never took fees for legal work while you were (are) an alcoholic?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:38 PM

no Bryn,
Those of us who have had close relatives who were Alcoholics,my mother and stepfather were,have a very good understanding of what it is about,and have suffered the consequences of seeing those we have loved, destroyed by this disease.
I remember my mother before she became an alcoholic,a person who was very positive,who graduated from the Royal Academy of Art,who cared about trying to wrong the ills in our society[we have to remember the positive sides of people,Remember them at their best]

Alex Campbell,did his bit,went on CND marches etc,he had an illness[alcoholism]during the later part of his career,but the majority of his gigs were good.
can we remember him for the majority of his gigs?,he did a hell of a lot of gigs,made a lot of recordings and was overall [IMO] a good ambassador for folk music.
please lets not remember him for his illness.after all we dont remember Woody Guthrie for having Huntingtons Chorea,but for his songs,can we be even handed.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:46 PM

what a coincidence ,my stepfather was a lawyer,he certainly took fees and was practising,during the time he was an alcoholic.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 12:47 PM

What I got from reading Bryn Pugh's post was that you can be a drinking alcoholic and avoid being drunk during a paid gig. Making a professionally bad decision is a totally different thing than having an illness.

Of course, I'm not an alcoholic, so it seems like it should be easy for an alcoholic to refrain from drinking for the few hours they're on stage. I might be quite wrong. I expect the truth is that some can and some can't, and some can drink just enough to give in to the need and not be stupid-drunk.

For some, a performer being that drunk won't be a problem. For me, it probably would. I'd listen to recordings and respect the person for their musical knowledge and abilities, but I'd avoid their gigs.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:06 PM

Jeri,

I assume you don't have much experience of folk clubs - particularly during the 60s and 70s.

It was the last place anyone with a drink problem should have been. Some survived it but some didn't.

As for "it should be easy for an alcoholic to refrain from drinking for the few hours they're on stage." Alcoholism comes in different degrees, and people have different personality types. If it was that easy maybe Alex really could have been a millionaire.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Wesley S
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:09 PM

"I expect the truth is that some can and some can't."

Very true - in this matter like many others - people need to be viewed as individuals. When you start making blanket statements you're bound to make a mistake. But I can say that making an ass of yourself on stage could be just what an alcoholic needs to start the recovery process. Many of them need to "hit bottom" before they can start the long crawl up out of the gutter.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:11 PM

Well, I've just been right through the catalogue of Castle Records on the site of the troubled Sanctuary group. Some great stuff there - the early Status Quo compilations that Alan Lancaster is litigating, a vault of stuff produced by the legendary Joe Meek, a double album of Billy Fury stuff including sessions he did for radio Luxembourg, and mirabile dictu the Downliners Sect first album. And a lot of Renbourn, Jansch, Korner, some Davy Graham. 776 CDs listed. No Young Tradition.

Off to try the other link now.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Amos
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 01:28 PM

I dunno about speaking ill of the dead -- I guess it depends on who it is -- but around my part of the jungle people often speak in rather dead tones of the ill.

A

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:18 PM

Alex Campbell was one of the major influences in my life, where music is concerned, and thankfully somewhat less of an influence in terms of the consumption of quantities of beer.

The abiding memory I have of the man is the effect he had on my tendency to over embellish everything. It was a stunning revelation that one could simply stand up and sing a very simple melody, with little, or even no, accompaniment, and sound absolutely wonderful.

Of course there were good nights and bad, though the latter were only taking place over a comparatively short later section of his career.

I had the pleasure of booking him on at least five occasions, of which only one was of dubious quality (and that only for the last twenty minutes). Needless to say all five sold out and nobody present ever suggested that booking him was a mistake.

I knew, as did every organiser, of his reputation for unreliability, but I'm grateful that I was arrogant enough to ignore all warnings, and I had some wonderful evenings as a result.

God rest him
Don T.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 12:37 AM

The Chaser - a bunch of Aussie guys with all the sanity of Monty Python, recently did a song where they were trying to make the point that no matter what sort of lying arsehole someone had been, you can't speak ill of the dead. So they did.

Made National TV for days...

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:45 AM

I made my point about Alex Campbell on another thread regarding the part he played at the John Snow meeting, and I had no intentions of adding anything, but there seems to have been a point overlooked here.
His singing was not to my taste, but that's beside the point.
I saw him on two occasions, in Manchester at the MSG. On both of those he was pissed out of his skull, on one, projectile vomit pissed.
No matter what I thought of him as a singer, nor whatever sympathy I had for his drink problem, (and I've seen that problem in friends) I really believe that the music I have been listening to for most of my life is worth more than that.
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:56 AM

At risk of thread-creep I did of course take fees whilst alcoholic- it doesn't go away, you know.

To use a well-worn metaphor : once I had crossed the invisible line between heavy drinking and alcoholism, there was no way back. Once a cucumber has become a pickled gherkin,it cannot be transformed back into a cucumber.

Not every alcoholic is a drinking alcoholic.

My original point was that some people blackguarded Ewan McColl having never met the man.

Some people blackguarded Alex Campbell for being a piss-head.

Every fucker is blackguarding me for making the comparison :-)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:03 AM

Nice plate of worms Bryn? ☺ ☻
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 05:31 AM

What ?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:32 AM

You needn't bother, Giok - I went into the 'Eat some Worms' thread, and the penny has dropped :-D

And in answer, yes, bloody scrumptious - 'specially with a bit of humble pie ;-D

Who shall we have a go at next, kids ?

Suggestions on a postcard or under plain wrapper to the House at Pooh Corner

Brynnie-the-Pugh

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

Bryn, I am not blackguarding you,I have sympathy with anyone with this disease,I believe once someone has recognised their problem,that is the first obstacle overcome.
I agree with Don Thompson.
Alex Campbell was born in 1925 started his professional singing career[1955[thats my guess] could be earlier [1953],he had a career of between 25 and thirty years.,as my memory serves me,it was the last seven years of his career,that his drink problem ,affected his playing and singing.
No one on this forum can tell me that a performer can have a lifespan of 25 years plus, and be consistently doing poor gigs,anyone that says so is talking rubbish.
so now can we get Alex Campbell ,and his drinking problem in its correct proportion,the majority of Alex Campbells gigs were not affected by his illness,if they were he would not have had such a long and successful career
Jim Carroll.
so do you apply these same standards to Padraig O Keefe,another performer who occasionally was the worse for drink,and whose playing in his later years,on occasions was affected by his drinking. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:22 AM

apologies ,Jim,should be a fullstop after career.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

Capting

I'm delighted to hear it.

You don't do 'tongue-in-cheek', do you :-)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,redmax
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:29 AM

Let's have a thread entitled: "A.L. Lloyd, the meddling phoney". After that, Gandhi, perhaps concluding with Mother Theresa

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 08:47 AM

Jim Carroll.
I could mention other performers,one who puked up,all over the first row of the Marquis Of Clanricade Folk club,while playing the Banjo,
Or the famous Irish piper,who spent all day in his bed,didnt eat for days,and when he did eat,Made a concoction of Vodka AND Onions which he called Scald,and drank excessive whisky,we dont rubbish this mans collecting or his playing, because in later life he had a drink problem.
Jim,having read many of your posts,I am not surprised you didnt appreciate Alex Campbell.Ithought he was hilarious.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 09:03 AM

He turned professional in 1955 Cap'n, so you are correct. He busked in the streets of Paris around 1956 with Derrol Adams, Joe Locker, Martin Winsor, Davy Graham and others.
I believe that a certain Lionel Bart was reputed to be one of that company in those early days. Jack Elliot too was around Paris in those days.

You can't deny a pedigree like that folks.

Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

"I could mention other performers,one who puked up,all over the first row of the Marquis Of Clanricade Folk club,while playing the Banjo,"

Captain, would that be the Marquis of Clanricarde in Sussex Gardens, W2?

I used to drink there; I frequently got rather drunk; I played the banjo .... no, couldn't be!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:25 AM

Were there carrots ?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM

Worms?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 01:57 PM

Mr Pugh,

While Alex Campbell may have sent a few dozen folk club members home somewhat disgruntled by performing while under the influence, it doesn't seem to bother you that you may have charged some poor client a packet for performing your legal duties while rat-arsed.

How are ya, Timothy Evans?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 02:52 PM

Nothing wrong with Timothy, Hanged for something he didn't do.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:00 PM

Cap'n,
If Pádraig O'Keefe had been a professional performer constantly turning up for bookings too pissed to play, of course the answer is yes. As it is, that wasn't the case, so what he did in his own time was his own business.
There are a number of things to remember here.
First, as I mentioned earlier, I don't think it does traditional music or song any good for a performer to turn up unable to perform. I do not blame Campbell for this; as has been pointed out by you and others, alcoholism is an illness and should be regarded as such. But its is the responsibility of club organisers to make sure, as far as possible, that the people they book are able to perform adequately.
The organisers also bear a responsibility towards the performer. It does nobody any favours to put a performer in a position of being publicly humiliated. Like Folkiedave, I can remember the "Let's go and watch Campbell fall about the stage; it should be good for a laugh", school of non-thought.
A musician who was arguably one of the greatest exponents of Irish traditional music within living memory, had a 'drink problem'; so much so that whenever we, as club organisers, heard he was doing a tour, we always attempted to find out the current 'drink situation' before we agreed to book him. Even with the most careful planning, things went awry, mainly thanks to audience members sending up glasses of whisky when he was on stage. The last time we booked him he turned up virtually sober, an hour early with his son, who then filled the next sixty minutes replenishing his whisky glass. When we asked him to come up and play, his son chirped up "surely we have time for another couple of drinks, don't we dad?" The end result was your man was too pissed to strap on his pipes, never mind play. My abiding last memory was of him making a total fool of himself on stage – what a ******* waste!
I am constantly struck by the double standards which seem to be a permanent feature of today's folk scene.
Earlier in this thread I asked about MacColl's inclusion in the R.I.P. list. Admittedly I didn't, expect an answer and so I wasn't disappointed when I didn't get one; I can only assume that the question only covers performers admired by the questioner.
Similarly, when Robert Zimmerman decides to change his name to Bob Dylan, or when John Pandrich appears as Johnny Handle, quite rightly, nobody bats an eyelid. On the other hand, when Jimmy Miller changes his name to Ewan MacColl, this becomes a matter of major concern, so much so, it becomesa major hurdle to any discussion on his work as a creative artist.
When MacColl, along with Lloyd and others, adopted the centuries (probably millennia) old, world wide technique of cupping the hand over the ear in order to stay in tune, (the Watersons used both hands) it lead to descriptions such as can be found in a fairly recently published bit of fanzine type writing (Irish Folk, Trad and Blues, Colin Harper and Trevor Hodgett); "Grand Wizard was an earnest, ear-fingering socialist called Ewan MacColl".
The term 'finger-in-ear' has become a general term of abuse aimed at anybody who has the temerity to take traditional music seriously (for a wonderful example see Tony Hall's piece of divisive viciousness in the current issue of The Living Tradition. I have to say I'm not really surprised at Hall, though I am somewhat dismayed that the editor should think such shite worth including).
There is nothing whatever wrong, as far as I'm concerned, with discussing the contribution, good or bad, people have made down the years to traditional music; Campbell, MacColl, Kennedy, Lomax, whoever. However, the creation of sacred cows and no-go areas do no good to the music and are, in the long run, an insult to their memories.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:51 PM

Jim Carroll,I am talking about an occassion when Padraig Okeefe,turned up for a paid engagement too pissed to play properly,so your talking gobbledegook.
Tony Hall is the gentlest person I know on the folkscene,to those of us who know him,your comments are laughable.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Gurney
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

I knew Alex back in the early 70s before I emigrated, and booked him a couple of times, too. He was usually well lubricated by the end of the night, but the quality of his performance seemed (to me) to be more influenced by the pleasure and engagement of the audience than the quantity of spirits he had consumed. If the crowd was with him, he performed well, if they weren't, he drank more and the gig disintegrated.

I stand to be corrected on this. It is based on observation over perhaps 20 gigs.

He was a nice guy, though.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: oggie
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:01 PM

The dead aren't interested and can't sue. Thus anyone can say what they like, pass on any gossip safe in the knowledge there's no comeback.

I knew Tony Capstick better than Alex or some of the others mentioned (we got memorably pissed on my eighteenth birthday at the Turks Head in Lincoln). Looking back on it now I'm not proud of it, nor the fact that later, when I maybe knew more, I didn't say owt and even bought him a drink. Dredging through my album collection I've listened to some of his (and Alex's) and I think "What a waste" but I, like many others, helped him along the way.

"Tall Poppy Syndrome" is all well and good when your victim can fight back, when they're safely in the ground it smacks of cowardice if you didn't have the nerve to tell it them when they were alive. I didn't and will not speak ill of Tony who was (for me at least) always a lovely man.

Steve

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 06:05 PM

Similarly, when Robert Zimmerman decides to change his name to Bob Dylan, or when John Pandrich appears as Johnny Handle, quite rightly, nobody bats an eyelid. On the other hand, when Jimmy Miller changes his name to Ewan MacColl, this becomes a matter of major concern, so much so, it becomesa major hurdle to any discussion on his work as a creative artist.
the above is a quote from Jim Carroll,
we have had discussions here on Mudcat about Ewan Maccoll,many people have praised[myself included]his work as songwriter and singer,his helpfulness to others re research,a very very tiny proportion of people mentioned his name change,and I dont recall it being a major hurdle to discussion,on any threads I have been involved in.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 07:01 PM

I have just read through all the posts,about Ewan.
apart from the thread called Ewan Maccoll real name,[it is mentioned three or four times as you might expect]
his change of name is mentioned about eight to ten times out of nearly 1500 posts,it certainly has not been a hurdle to discussing his creativity.
Jim,if you dont believe me check it out. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 10:54 PM

Thanks, Capn'n, quoting those statistics might help to extinguish the persecution complex exhibited by those who refuse to allow any discussion about MacColl that goes beyond his singing.

I have never criticized him for changing his name; neither have I mocked him for cupping his hand over his ear.

What I did ask about was his pre-folk revival years; in particular about the World War II years. I've learned a little about that from the discussions on Mudcat but I will continue to seek more knowledge about it.

Why? Because I'm interested, that's why. I'd like to know how he formed his opinions and who influenced him. There - my hidden agenda has been revealed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jm Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:57 AM

"Jim Carroll,I am talking about an occassion when Padraig Okeefe,turned up for a paid engagement too pissed to play properly,"
Cap'n,
And I am not talking of a couple of isolated incidents, but of whole careers peppered by occasions of turning up pissed and being unable to perform, and not just Campbell,
Poppycock is a nice comfort-blanket to hide behind if you have no argument.
Nor am I talking of just 'name-change' or the Mudcat Forum regarding a serious discussion of MacColl, nor am I just citing Winger or any other individual. I am talking about a career spanning over half a century.
Where have you ever encountered a serious debate of his singing and his ideas on singing that hasn't been choked up by the weeds of tabloidese trivia?
I repeat my question - is MacColl to be included on the R.I.P. list?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:21 AM

Funnily enough I mentioned Derrol Adams earlier, and he also seems to have escaped to opprobrium that Alex gets on the subject of drinking too much.
I have personally driven Derrol round the dives and clubs of Soho after the pubs shut, in order to find him a bottle of whisky, for which he paid well over the correct price, from a strip club.
This was so he could go to sleep, and have something to wake up to. Now that's serious alcoholism, and I had never met up with it that bad before.
I also remember that whoever handled that tour for him [Roy Guest possibly?], told club organisers not to give him the full amount of his fee, just enough to keep him going, and send the rest to the tour organiser. I believe this was as much to stop him giving the money away to someone down on their luck, as to stop him drinking too much. He had a reputation as an extremely generous man.
Anyway he and Alex were bosom buddies, and I'd swap 100 of today's bland and characterless musical whizz kids, to have either of them back.
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:44 AM

Winger,

Look up the Law of Libel before you make your next attack on me - I might not be so amiable, next time.

If I had ever overcharged a client or misadvised him through being under the influence of alcohol, how much longer do you think I would have been allowed to practice ?

You have the happy knack of jumping to a conclusion, and then convincing yourself that this is divine revelation.

It might be remembered that I posted that my alcoholism is one reason why I gave up singing, and dancing the Morris, which has been my heart's delight for many years.

If you are still singing, and/or dancing, consider yourself fortunate.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:58 AM

Bryn Pugh,as I said I did know a solicitor ,who should have been strruck off,for selling a pub ,but being too pissed too include the car park in the conveyance.
Jim Carroll,your still talking gobbkledegook,Because you cant explain how Alex Campbell had a 25 year plus pedigree,as a folksinger,would organisers have booked him again and again[which they did]over 25 years,if he didnt[generallyspeaking] give a good show.
you use double standards,you want Ewan protected,yet you vilify John Brune,call him an arsehole etc.I dont like to see anyone vilified after they are dead.,so please will you stop doing it.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:14 AM

Capting

Good job I never did any conveyancing, ain't it ? Apart from Intellectual Property, anything which smacked remotely of Chancery brought me out in a rash.

I repeat : if I had ever overcharged a client, or misadvised one through being remotely under the influence of alcohol, how much longer does anyone think I would have been allowed to continue in practice ?

Let's all stop vilifying the dead - especially Alex Campbell and Ewan McColl.

I posted earlier : who shall we have a go at next ?

I added the 'smiley' to indicate a joke. Went down like a bacon buttie at a Bar Mitzvah.

I think that Jim C had the rights of it in his previous post :

'Where have you ever encountered a serious debate on his singing and his ideas on singing that hasn't been choked up by the weeds of tabloidesque trivia ?'

I have never seen or heard ANY debate on Ewan McColl which has not deteriorated into the 'ethnic' jibe (which I have previously suggested now belongs in the dustbin of history) ; the 'finger in ear' jibe ; the 'what did you do in the war, Ewan' jibe.

These, it seems to me, have become as much cliches as the Clancy brothers' Arran sweaters.

Capting : I had never previously heard of John Brune. and I hope fellow 'Catters will have noticed that I will not pretend a knowledge I have not got.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:42 AM

my remarks re John Brune
Jim Carroll,your still talking gobbkledegook,Because you cant explain how Alex Campbell had a 25 year plus pedigree,as a folksinger,would organisers have booked him again and again[which they did]over 25 years,if he didnt[generallyspeaking] give a good show.
you use double standards,you want Ewan protected,yet you vilify John Brune,call him an arsehole etc.I dont like to see anyone vilified after they are dead.,so please will you stop doing it.Dick Miles
they are clearly aimed at Jim Carroll.
BRYN,My handle is Captain,not Capting.
Jim Carroll is wrong ,if you trawl through all the correspondence,there is much to be learned about MacColl,[including an interesting post from HOOTENANNY about Maccolls prevention of Lisa Turner, singing an american song at the singers club]but very little reference to his real name.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:56 AM

Lighten up folks, this thread has imparted little of consequence in the last X posts. So much sensitivity! It's like watching bruised egos in brownian motion. Or perhaps not brownian - too random. Why, we know by now that if Y says black, Z is bound to insist on white, and if G momentarily agrees, F is likely to take offence. All of which doesn't help the rest of us poor ignoramuses trying to decipher some crumbs of knowledge from what could have been an informative thread.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:03 AM

I suggest the last few posts belong in the why do people speak ill of singers thread.
It really should be possible to debate without confusing the poster with his post. Talk about killing the messenger who brings bad news!
As for the impugning of someone's professional reputation, I think that is a hike too far.
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

De mortuis nisi bonum from now on - promise !

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Pro bono publico

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: theleveller
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:38 AM

In vino veritas (hic)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:14 AM

carpe diem et mutatis mutandis.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 09:16 AM

noli illegitimi carborundum.

In faecam aeternum summus - solii profundii variat.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:05 PM

It's all Greek to me.
Cap'n,
Now we seem to have left your Padráig O'Keefe nonsense safely to bed, perhaps we can sort out the Alex Campbell bit.
I cited the two instances of my having seen Campbell as not being particularly edifying, particularly the 'technicolour yawn' one and said I didn't rate him too highly as a singer. I have no dispute with Campbell's track record; if he gave people pleasure, fine; he didn't give me any.
You can have no argument with either of my statements, as they are my experiences and my tastes, nothing to do with you.
I went on to say I believe an excess of alcohol can seriously damage your singing, and did so in Campbell's case - I am certainly not alone on this thread. Do you disagree with this - surely not? I would be interested in Bryn's view on this if he cares to give it.
My comments on John Brune centred on his attempts to wreck the Radio Ballad, the travelling people - as outlined by Sheila Stewart in her interview with Bob Pegg in The Living Tradition. Do you think that forcing the removal of Sheila Stewart from The Travelling People by a vindictive prank was a good thing or a bad thing?
We of the general public have a right to know!!!!!!!
I can't help but notice that the questioner still hasn't answered my question, therefore I will assume that his concern is only for the singers he happens to reckon.
Jim Carroll
PS Bryn, the John Brune debate occured on another thread whose title I can't recall - perhaps somebody can point it out for you. It revolves around a particularly vicious piece of anti-MacCollism and can be sourced in an interview with Sheila Stewart by Bob Pegg which can be found on The Living Tradition archive, (and which the Capting apparently found 'amusing'.... but there you go

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:22 PM

There you go again, being nasty and personal. You were told the name is Captain Birdseye and not Capting, but you repeated the insult just to be unkind.
WHY ???????????????

G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:32 PM

We of the general public have a right to know!!!!!!!

Ah....what a wealth of trouble in 10 short words......

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 04:09 PM

The Padraig o Keefe story is not nonsense,I was quoting an example of unprofessionalism,along with Seamus Ennis,and Margaret Barry,The reason I mentioned these,was to put into perspective Campbells alleged misdeameanours,to right an impression given by you and others[Diane Easby],that Alex Campbell was frequently unprofessional and frequently did bad gigs.
If that was the case how did he have such along career?,you havent answerd this yet,what you are saying does not make sense.
you Vilify the dead[JohnBrune],and yet you get upset about people being negative about Ewan Maccoll,Ido Too,but I dont ever speak badly of the dead .
this capting stuff is puerile.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:52 PM

Cap'n

You were equating an elderly countryman who played the fiddle with a professional performer who persistently turned up for gigs drunk- that's dishonest.
Unprofessional - isn't Pádraig O'Keefe dead - and you calling him unprofessional tsk - tsk.
I assume you support Brune's behaviour in getting Sheila Stweart excluded from The Travelling People - you didn't answer.
It's when I read of your support for squalids like Brune and Kennedy (though you did do a sharp U turn over the latter), that I realise that the choices of taste I made so long ago were the right ones - keep up the good work.
Nor did you answer my question on drinking adversly affecting performance, just as John didn't answer my question; what an enigmatic pair.
Anyway, that's enough mud-wreastling for one day, I'm off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:29 PM

Jim Carroll,What a load of tripe.
I have enjoyed O Keefes music on recordings. on the occasion I mentioned he was unprofessional,
I brought OKeefes name and the others into this discussion reluctantly,so that people, new to the scene, would realise,that heavy drinking used to be quite prevalent on the folkscene,and that Alex Campbell was only one of many.
my opinions of Brunes behaviour is irrelevant.
I have never in 31 years of performing been unable to perform,because I was drunk.
last sunday ,I did a gig at cork singers club,I was told by several people, that I still had a good voice,But then I dont drink excessively,tonight I have had a pint of beer and two glasses of wine.
my voice and my instrumental abilities,on concertina and guitar,are very important to my financial welfare,so I dont abuse myself.
I repeat on the occasions I saw AlexCampbell,his performances were not affected by his drinking.,for all my professionalism,I wouldnt have wanted to have followed him on stage,Alex Campbell had flair,and on the occasions I saw him,he had the audience eating out of his hand,on those occasions he was a magical performer.
any objective person will understand,he wouldnt have had a 25 plus year career,if he hadnt been able to consistently deliver the goods.
Dick Miles


,

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 06:30 PM

100,sorry leadfingers.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:21 PM

Jim Carroll wrote:

"However, the creation of sacred cows and no-go areas do no good to the music and are, in the long run, an insult to their memories."

I totally agree, Jim.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:50 AM

Those who think this has degenerated into a vaccuuous slanging match are, of course right, it has become somewhat out of hand and irrelevant, my fault as much as anybody's. I mistakenly took the question in general terms and hadn't realised it was aimed specifically at Alex Campbell - a perfectly valid and laudable topic, of course.
People have said what they thought of Campbell and as far as I'm concerned, that's it.
Unlike others, I did not detect any nastiness; over-enthusiasm maybe, but that is as it should be; we'd all be fairly colourless if we didn't step over the line of our enthusiasms about who and what we respect occasionally.
I'm am sure Bryn didn't intend his 'Capting' comment nastily; I certainly didn't. I assumed we were all old enough to remember 'The Goon Show', where it originated, and I also assumed we all had a sense of humour - maybe not, on both counts.
Personally, I find tags rather unnecessary and am occasionally tempted to take a rise out of them; Countess Di and WMD, (both of whom I respect greatly) for instance. I would be far more comfortable addressing people by their real names - but that's me.
One problem for me is that I always manage to get drawn into harangues with Dick Miles; totally pointless, as we appear to be light years apart in our opinions, and I suspect he gets as little out of them as I do.
I am tempted to say it won't happen again, but I suppose it shall.
Sorry if I have given any offence, I didn't intend to.
Best,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:16 AM

To cool thinks maybe, an explanation for those who are not familiar with Pádraig O'Keefe and his music and a story of one of his tunes.
He was a music teacher and magnificent fiddle player from Sliabh Luachra (The Rushy Mountain), on the Cork and Kerry borders; he died in 1963.
At one time fellow fiddle player, Denis Murphy visited him to get one of his (unnamed) tunes, and finding him not at home, was told he was up at the bog cutting turf. He found him sitting on the side of the bank of turf having a smoke.
When he asked for the tune, O'Keefe said he'd give it in exchange for a pint. Murphy agreed, and O'Keefe wrote the tune out for him on the newly cut bank of turf with his finger. The tune has ever since been known as 'The Bank of Turf'.
Not a lot of people know that!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:28 AM

now thats what you call roots music!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:11 AM

It is necessary to understand,the life of professional folksingers,to undestand the pitfalls many have them have fallen into.
The Loneliness of the scene,the long periods between gigs, spent killing time.I have[Unlike Jim]been there and done it,there has been a long list of casualties,through both drink and drug abuse,other than Alex,but not one person[imo]would have wanted to follow Alex Campbell,when he was on top of his game, which I reckon was 85 percent of the time.
Lets get all this into perspective,I could give a list[withonly afew minutes thought] of 24 people, all full time folk performers,who have become victims of their lifestyle,but I would prefer to remember them in their hey day,and for the pleasure they have given us,than for their flaws.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:18 AM

WMD Jim, which weapon of mass destruction did you have in mind as the object of your respect?

Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:33 AM

Here is the dilemma for me at any rate.

Do you go to the gig - hoping against hope that the artist will be as good as they once were?

Do you not go to the gig - knowing there is a good chance it will be awful?

I prefer to remember the artist as they once were and not go to the gig.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:07 AM

Padraig o Keefe,also had at least two pupils[probably more]Julia Clifford,and Paddy Cronin[Who is still playing well]who contributed a lot to the Irish Traditonal music scene.
Seamus Ennis was responsible for recording the fine singer Beth Cronin,and left us with some fine music himself.
Folkie Dave,But is it always as clear cut as that,some people may have not retained their vocal range ,but they can still put over a story in a song,and still give a good night,despite their age,they may be not the same as when they were twenty,but they are not all used up,and still have much to offer.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:28 PM

'Padraig Ó Keeffe,also had at least two pupils' - including Denis Murphy and Johnny O'Leary!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:43 PM

Julia Clifford, PaddyCronin,were taught exclusively by Padraig Okeefe.
Denis Murphy,had already had lessons before he was taught by OKeefe,so he had less influence on Murphy.Johhny Oleary was primarily a box player,who was helped alot by John Clifford.
PaddyJones is another fiddle pupil of Okeefes.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:06 PM

Jim, I confess to having a chuckle at your retelling of the John Brune/Ewan MacColl affair on a previous thread. The image of a big hairy bloke singing in falsetto in an effort to convince MacColl that he was a female traditional singer was too much.

Perhaps it's the perception of many that MacColl wasn't exactly renowned for leaving 'em rolling in the aisles, that makes it so comically ridiculous and which draws a po-faced response from his disciples.

More seriously though, why did MacColl think it necessary to teach Sheila Stewart a new song for the programme, when surely a song from her family's rich repertoire would have been more appropriate.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM

Funny thing that, I had a similar thing happen when they recorded Folk on 2 at my local club. I was encouraged to sing Scots songs, although it's not a thing I do that much. The producer thought that as I have a Scots accent I should sing Scots songs.
Go figger as they say!
Giok

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: bubblyrat
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:37 PM

"In Vino Veritas " is probably better expressed as " Fecundi Calices, Quem Non Fecere Disertum ?". But who cares ?? Richard.....Is an "Espouser" a Liverpudlian who has relocated to Spain ?? Anyway, I first heard of Alex Campbell in about 1964/65, when I first started going to / playing in "folk "-clubs, and as far as I"m concerned, the man was " THE MAN" , and could do little or no wrong, ---likewise Cyril T., but being in Her Majesty"s Imperial Navy, I was biased.At the time, there were other performers of a Jockanese disposition, viz. the OTHER Campbells ( Ian & Lorna ), plus the Corries ( sorry ! ) , Archie Fisher,(I think ) , Bert Jansch, and ,of course, Hamish Imlach, who was probably unable to even perform, like that famous Canadian snooker player, unless he"d had about 14 pints first.--in fact, having become famous in Germany, he assured himself of a plentiful supply of the sup, by buying himself his own bar !! ( Just around the corner from where I lived in Bielefeld-----no names, no pack-drill !! ) .The point is, they all "took a drink ", or so it seemed, and quite rightly too ! If they declined somewhat, in their later years, it was/is only to be expected. I believe Alan Taylor ( Oh ! Joy ! ) may even have written a song on the subject. I personally have paid my dues, and been hung out to dry , after a surfeit of Tiger, San Miguel, and Pusser"s Rum ( "Bubbly" ), in RVH Netley, The Herbert Day Centre ,Bournemouth, and St. Annes Hospital, Sandbanks , Poole.Let that be a lesson to you all !! ( And I am neither dead, teetotal, nor Scottish !! )------

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:39 PM

Like it Bubblyrat :)

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:19 PM

so what Scottish song did you sing. I dunno what I'd do if someone asked me to do an English song. I suspect I might be offended. Not that I don't know English songs.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:26 PM

Henry Martin actually Al
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:27 PM

Don't speak ill of the dead lest you meet in some future clime.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 03:22 AM

Winger,
I agree with your reaction to Brune's stunt; it was mine when I first heard of it. It was when it was put into context for me (by Parker) that I realised the consequences of it.
The production team had decided to devote a section of 'The Travelling People' to Travellers as songmakers making songs about their lives. There wasn't much available to them at the time so they put out an appeal. Brune sent in his tape, the team selected one and gave it to Sheila to learn. It was edited in as a 'genuine Travellers song'. Brune said nothing about it until the final editing had been completed. Had it been left in, it would have been jumped on as phony and would, I believe, have been a major flaw inn extremely important programme; so it was withdrawn and Sheila didn't appear.
I know from personal experience that Travellers were having a rough time in the sixties; Harry Watton, the man who proposed that they should be exterminated, had plenty of supporters.
The Radio Ballad introduced me, and thousands of others to the situation and we got involved. As amusing as the stunt might have been, I'm glad it was found out in time - po-faced if you like.
Incidentally, the attitude to Travellers here in Ireland at the present time has now reached ethnic cleansing proportions - pity MacColl and Parker aren't around any more to do another one!.
Jim Carroll
PS John: WMD = WLD = Wee Little Drummer (not so amusing when you have to explain it) - hope he didn't mind.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 04:37 AM

Mortally offended.........doubt if I'll recover, have taken to my bed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

Padraig o Keefe,ws an educated man,the son of a schoolteacher,he himself became a schoolteacher,after he resigned as a schoolteacher,he taught the fiddle,travelling to peoples houses by foot or cycling.
one of his pupils Jack Connell said that he studied the fiddle playing of Fitzgerald of Lacka and of CorneyDrewfrom near Scarta glen,who in turn got music from Gradda,A travelling teacher from Tipperary.
Padraig apparently learned music theory,and possibly was influenced by 78 recordings of the times.
there is an excellent book by David Lyth,called bowing styles in Irish Fiddle Playing,which has much information on O Keefe available from Comhaltas,
To describe O Keefe as an elderly country gentlemen,is a poor and misleading description,he was an educated man, a schoolmaster by profession,and a man who studied traditional music seriously.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: goatfell
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:46 AM

never knew him, and as you say if those 'friends' knew that he was an alcholic then they would not get him a drink of alchol would they now.
But these people are as you say just hangers on.

Tom

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:06 AM

Did any of you read my post -

'I have treasured memories of Alex Campbell' ?

Jim C - Excess of alcohol ruined my voice.

I speak only for myself, because I am the only person I can speak for, as regards my addiction.

Between all the Woodbines, and all the whiskey, there isn't even the Blues left.

These days, it's a case of live gigs at the Royal and Dearngate, or de Montford Hall (as the case might be).

I stil play guitar, now and again.

Sometimes, I look at my Morris bells, hanging on my Study wall, and I could cry.

If I did, tho, there are those who have posted in this thread who would say

'There's the alkie, feeling sorry for himself'.

I'm out of this. To you all - Blessed Be and be Blessed.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:40 PM

"I'm out of this. To you all - Blessed Be and be Blessed."
Bryn,
I hope this doesn't mean your leaving us - I would hate to lose such an articulate soul-mate, especially as we haven't been in contact for nearly forty years.
Best wishes,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:25 AM

No, Jim, just this thread.

Strange how a throwaway remark can result in virtiolic vituperation,ain't it ?

There aren't many of us left from the Manchester Critics still in contact, and I value beuing in contact with you, and your friendship.

Regards, Bryn

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:53 AM

Bryn,My post re Padraig o keefe,was to give a little more in formation to anyone wHo may be new to Irish music .,didnt mean to cause any offence,I dont understand latin,I can do rhyming slang and backslang though.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:22 AM

Hi Captain -

My last posts were 'dog Latin' - you didn't recognise 'carborundum', as in abrasive ? 'Noli illegitimi carborundum' - don't let the bastards grind you down.

The other is more dog Latin - 'we're always in the shit - only the depth varies'.

About right, I'd say, on reflection.

Sorry for the thread creep, fellow 'Catters.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Bryn,
Mary Humphreys is till around.
Whatever happened to Maria Louden?
Jim

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:53 AM

Maria married my former flat mate, Mark, in 1969 or 70. The last

time I saw Maria (and Mark) was at a Manchester Folk Festival at the

Uni, which must have been in 1972 or 1973. Dave and Toni Arthur and

I did a workshop on Witching, and I was complimented by Paul

Graney. Praise indeed !

I taught Maria's younger sister, Jacinta, for part of her

post graduate professional Legal qualifications (Law Society).

Wonder what, if anything, Winger will make of that ?

I believe Steve Mayne sings occasionally, but I left Manchester many

years ago - not long after you did.

Kind regards, Bryn

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:03 PM

"Wonder what, if anything, Winger will make of that ?"

Do I detect a little paranoia, Mr. Pugh?

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:50 PM

It would take more than your spite and sarcasm to make me paranoid, Winger.

I've been bugged by experts. Someone in short pants don't bother me.

Back to your titty bottle before your mother realises you're out.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:13 PM

"Every fucker is blackguarding me for making the comparison "

" 'Noli illegitimi carborundum' - don't let the bastards grind you down."

"I've been bugged by experts."

You said it, Mr. Pugh.

Infamy! Infamy! They've all got it in for me.

A candidate for martyrdom if ever I saw one. Now, to get back to the original topic ...

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:23 PM

I'll let you have the last word. By the way, shouldn't the 'i' be an 'a', and the 'g' a 'k' ?

I'll not bandy words with one who launches squibs from behind a pseudonym.

Jim C - I'll drop FolkieDave a line aand ask him to pass my private E-Mail address to you.

I'm fed up with time wasters. Life is too short to waste my intellect on the likes of Wanker - sorry - that should have been Winger.

Up yours and twist it.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:26 PM

Winger
Shouldn't that have been 'every fecker....?

Rog

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:18 PM

To Dick Miles: a small point but the Lisa Turner incident with MacColl was NOT at the Singer's Club but at the Ballads and Blues Club before Ewan and Peggy went off to run the Singers Club.

I personally knew Alex for a number of years booked him regularly and must admit kept an eye on him at the bar or nearest pub to ensure that his friends of whom there were many genuine ones didn't keep him away long enough not to be able to continiue the evening ON TIME. At one time he asked me to take on the task of being his manager. I always found him to be good natured sober or with a drink or two inside him. He was a good entertainer and that was why we used him so often and he always filled the club.

I could say more but it seems enough has already been said but I am always amazed at the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around on this site.

Hoot

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:26 PM

Well his manager in latter days Sandy Glennon was not noted for his sobriety either. I was with him in his car when he got stopped and breathalysed on the way back from a wee soiree at Cliff Aungier's flat after an evening at The Dungeon Club in Tower Bridge road. We were taken to the police station, and eventually the police released him, but gave the car keys to me as he wasn't fit to drive. I drove him back to his flat in Beaufort Street Chelsea, where he thanked me, took his car keys back, and left me to find my own way home to Richmond upon Thames. This was at 3AM, I was not a happy bunny I can tell you, but i was younger and fitter then.
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:03 AM

If some motherfu#ker has something to say about other posters, that person should be made to post under his/her regular name. Otherwise, the posts should be trashed. Without recourse, without remorse, without mercy. PERIOD!

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:07 AM

Mother

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Peace
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:30 AM

That ain't even the start of it, Giok.

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 10:59 AM

Just checking to see if I could use the word on it's own :)
G

Subject: RE: Speaking ill of the dead.
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 12:24 PM

'That ain't even the start of it . . . ' Peace (supra).

Quite so, Peace.

I wonder what the response, and reaction, of those who post under a nom de jeu would be, if a High Court Order for Discovery of Documents were to be made ; and simultaneous Application to serve outside the Jurisdiction annexed ?

Those who know me personally will vouch for the fact that I never threaten : I act.