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why are people so nasty to singers?

Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 07 - 02:03 AM
Rowan 23 Oct 07 - 02:39 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM
Dave Hanson 23 Oct 07 - 02:48 AM
Liz the Squeak 23 Oct 07 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,Tunesmith 23 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 23 Oct 07 - 03:41 AM
The Villan 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM
Richard Bridge 23 Oct 07 - 05:09 AM
The Villan 23 Oct 07 - 05:14 AM
Mr Happy 23 Oct 07 - 05:27 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM
lady penelope 23 Oct 07 - 06:02 AM
Mr Happy 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM
s&r 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM
s&r 23 Oct 07 - 06:23 AM
Mr Happy 23 Oct 07 - 06:24 AM
TheSnail 23 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM
Mr Happy 23 Oct 07 - 06:26 AM
GUEST,Darowyn 23 Oct 07 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC 23 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM
Uncle_DaveO 23 Oct 07 - 07:28 AM
Backwoodsman 23 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM
Tim Leaning 23 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 07 - 08:53 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM
topical tom 23 Oct 07 - 09:41 AM
GUEST 23 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 07 - 10:41 AM
Santa 23 Oct 07 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Mad Jock 23 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM
Peace 23 Oct 07 - 11:05 AM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 23 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM
Captain Ginger 23 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM
Peace 23 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM
Ernest 23 Oct 07 - 02:29 PM
Waddon Pete 23 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM
Liz the Squeak 23 Oct 07 - 02:43 PM
Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive) 23 Oct 07 - 02:44 PM
Tootler 23 Oct 07 - 03:00 PM
Herga Kitty 23 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM
Liz the Squeak 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 PM
Captain Ginger 23 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM
Big Al Whittle 23 Oct 07 - 05:00 PM
Jack Campin 23 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM
Richard Bridge 23 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM
Bert 23 Oct 07 - 09:55 PM
Big Al Whittle 24 Oct 07 - 03:36 AM
GUEST,Shimrod 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 AM
Mr Happy 24 Oct 07 - 04:36 AM
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Subject: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:03 AM

I had a mate who was an ambulance man, and he gave he gave it up eventually - he was such a good club entertainer. But while he was an ambulance man he worked that stretch of the M1 near Luton and consequently saw the results of traffic accidents every single working day.

I never knew a guy who so less full of bullshit.

One day we were chatting, and he put this strange idea to me. Why are people so nasty to people who can't do the job of entertaining very well? If they are crap, and people have a bad night - so what, nobody's dead. It really hardly matters at all.

Whereas, he said, he'd seen ambulance men who were so bad at their jobs that people had died as a result of them doing the wrong thing. Afterwards invariably the relatives came up and thanked the ambulance team for their efforts.

This week on mudcat, we've had people having a go at Ewan Maccoll, Alex Campbell - and now theres a thread saying nasty stuff about Big Tom, Daniel O'Donnel and his family, and Brendan Shine - all very popular entertainers who have given hours of pleasure to folk.

I can't understand it.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Rowan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:39 AM

Similar to the phenomenon known in Oz as the "tall poppy syndrome", and the subject of a Japanese proverb that intimates that the nail with its head above the board is the one to be whacked with a hammer.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:45 AM

WLD
Are you confusing 'being nasty' with discussing singers performances.
If somebody writes a book they will expect it to be scrurinised and discussed.
If a singer gets up in front of an audience they are putting themselves up for public scrutiny and if they are not up for that, maybe they should stay home and sing in the bath.
As far as I can see, folk singing is the only pastime where the participants appear to place themselves above criticism, and that cannot be good, either for the singer, who otherwise might be led to the idea that they are the greatest performer since Galicurci, nor for the audience member who has to sit there like a nodding dog and take anything that is given to them, no matter how bad.
Hopefully, criticism should be positive, but, as with singing, the vast majority of us are amateurs trying to do our best.
In my thirty odd years experience I can only recall two 'critics' I would have described as 'vicious' and they were both 'career critics', trying to make up for their own lack of talent by slagging off others - a rare breed, thanks be to jasus.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:48 AM

No one ever built a monument to a critic.

eric


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:59 AM

I've missed those nasty threads this weekend, I was off putting my head above the parapet and having far too much fun...



When I've slagged off a performer or someone, it's usually because they've done something that hurt or offended a person who didn't deserve it. I've heard some terrible drunken performances in my time, some by people who didn't have the excuse of being alcoholic but were just having a bad day. It happens.
It's been said by others here on this forum that maybe those being nasty about others are suffering from the Green-Eyed Monster. It's a theory... but it seems to me that more people have heard of those who are being slagged off, than have heard of the people doing the slagging.


LTS


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

I think a lot of people have a vision of how they think things should be musically; and if anything clashes with that vision, then criticism arise.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:41 AM

Whhat's said here is nothing compared to the mauling some popular entertainers get in the mainstream press... and I don't entirely buy the idea that if you've put yourself in the public domain it's open season.

If I were a reviewer and I went to review a gig and it was rubbish, it would be dishonest not to reflect that, even if I suspected the performer was just having what people are euphemistically calling a bad night. There'd be no need, other than pointless grandstanding, to be vicious or nasty about it, though. If I were there as a punter I'd probably walk out, because life's too short. If it was a really, really bad night I might even ask for my money back.

If I were an obiturist I'd want to give a fair and balanced overview of someone's life and acheivements: I wouldn't want to use the airbrush on them but I wouldn't want to turn a report into a massacre (unless they were a far right politician, for example!)

If I were a conributor to an online forum I wouldn't want to bang on about what I percieved to be the negative aspects of someone's performances and lifestyle - particularly if their positive contributions massively outshone these factors. And even more particularly if they were too dead to answer back.

The plus side of all this is that I now have to go out and find some Alex Campbell music to listen to (the joys of being a Johnny-come-lately). So can anyone be a darlin' and give me a couple of pointers as to where's a good place to begin?

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 AM

Don't we need to differentiate between a sing-around environment versus a concert environment.
If you go to a sing-around, you takes what you get. However if you pay to see a concert, you normally have an expectation that the performer(s) is/are capable of entertaining the audience in one way or another.
In all the concerts I have been to or put on, I cannot remember anybody performing badly. Ok maybe they could have performed better, but hey, we all have good and bad days.
What really bugs me, is when people say that a performer(s) is crap just because they don't like their style. I have seen many performers, some I have liked and some I totally disliked because I didn't like their style of music. That doesn't make them crap. I just don't bother to go and see them again. If somebody asks me what I think about a performer(s) who I don't like, I will readily admit to not liking, but then explain their style of music, so that the person can make their own mind up if they fancy seeing them.
Why oh why do people say that somebody is crap, when clearly they are not.
However, if a performer has the habit of going on stage drunk or on drugs or constantly cancel bookings or letting organisers down, then we are talking about a totally different thing.
I would be very very upset, if I turned up to a concert only to find that the artist(s) are badly under the influence. They shouldn't even be on stage. They have a responsibility to their audience. If that is a regular occurrence, organisers should not book them, after all the organiser has a responsibility to their audience as well.

What is disgusting is people publicly pulling other performers apart. That is just not acceptable. Especially as most of these people have a grudge or jealousy or don't like their style. Tell the performer (if they are still alive of course), don't try to ruin their career, just because you don't like them.

How many people haven't gone to a gig, because somebody had told them not to to go because they are crap, when indeed they were not their style.

I'll get me coat


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:09 AM

Well, Villan - if you ascribe it to the type of music then you get in to a "What is Folk" debate - as you and I have done!

By the way, how are you liking ADSL 24 so far? I have not yet taken the leap!


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: The Villan
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:14 AM

Oh no don't start that one again Richard LOL.

As far as I am concerned ADSL24 is great and glad I moved.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:27 AM

I don't feel that constructive criticism's a totally bad thing.

In many sinarounds/informal do's, the audience seem obliged to applaud at the end of a performance, irregardless of the quality.

Therefore, most performers have no way of judging wether their efforts were good or not.

I [& others] have been known to offer positive, helpful comments to others, if I/we felt their wasn't as good as it might've been.

Merely saying something like 'That was crap!' does nothing useful for anyone & just creates resentment & bad feelings.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM

"In many sinarounds/informal do's, the audience seem obliged to applaud at the end of a performance, irregardless of the quality.
Therefore, most performers have no way of judging wether their efforts were good or not."

In singarounds and informal do's, I believe that applause is given for the effort made by the performer, not as an indicator of some kind of critical judgment of that performance. It's the only reward available to the (unpaid) performer.

S:0)

BTW and FWIW, 'irregardless' is a double-negative, and doesn't mean the same as 'regardless'. I fact it's the opposite - it means 'regardful' or 'having regard for'. I think you meant 'irrespective'.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: lady penelope
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:02 AM

Subjectivity is a huge part of the question. Whether people percieve things to be 'good' or 'bad', be it the performance or the music itself, can't be anything other than subjective.

For example. I wouldn't go to a Kate Rusby gig if you paid me. I can't stand her voice and I dislike a lot of the material she does. Now, that does [b]not[/b] make her a bad singer. From a strictly technical point of view she is patently a good singer. I just don't like her voice. And just because I tend to dislike what material she chooses to perform, does not make it 'crap' music. In fact with some of the tradtional stuff I've been impressed with the arrangements she's performed them in. Kate Rusby is a good performer and musician. She's just not to my taste.

But an awful lot of people [b]do[/b] equate whether they personally enjoy something with whether it's 'good' or not.

On the other hand, I think it has to be taken into account, that professional performers do large numbers of gigs over the course of a career. Any one gig can only be a snapshot of that performer. A performance of any standard - no matter how good or bad, in that time and in that place. [u]But it's also a snapshot of the person watching them.[/u]

I've seen bands that I know I like and have come away feeling almost cheated at how uninspiring or unentertaining that band has been at that performance. But how much was it them having an off day and much much was it [b]me[/b] having a bad day?

How many acts have I seen that were pretty dire, but I've no desire to rubbish them in the least? Happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they might improve, that they were having a bad day. Because [b]I[/b] was in a good mood.

There's an interaction between audience and performer, that gives live music that buzz we all look for. Otherwise why would we bother? But it's not an exact science (thank goodness) and both performer and audience has to take their chances. Which is part of the frission that we want. If this is not what you want, why would you bother going to live performaces?

A certain level of objectivity is necessary when discussing performances and music. Realising that, although you may not have enjoyed what the person was performing or how they were doing it, does not automatically make that performance/performer 'bad'.

If a professional performer has performed poorly, an objective look at past performance (and the meer fact that they appear to earning a living must count for something...) would be the obvious comparison to make, before making a critisism.

Just declaring that someone is 'crap' because they didn't perform to your expectations (whatever they were) is not critisism. There's no reasoned observation and comparison to put a case as to why you thought the performance poor. It's just slagging someone off because you were dissapointed. Which is, frankly, childish.

And as for singarounds and open mike nights, getting performances that vary from appalling to rough around the edges to brilliant is part of the charm, you take the rough with the smooth. If you can't, don't go!


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM

Backwoodsman,

All my comments above are of course subjective, in the sense that they're my own opinion.

My main point here is that any performer, myself included, can benefit from feedback, in order that they may improve their delivery of their piece, rather than just empty clapping.

I've received some from you just now.

Also ' irregardless ' is one of my favourite 'non- words' - but all know what I mean 8-)


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:19 AM

Did you use the wrong brackets Lady P?

Stu


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: s&r
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:23 AM

This uses 'less than'/'greater than'

Subjectivity is a huge part of the question. Whether people percieve things to be 'good' or 'bad', be it the performance or the music itself, can't be anything other than subjective.

For example. I wouldn't go to a Kate Rusby gig if you paid me. I can't stand her voice and I dislike a lot of the material she does. Now, that does not make her a bad singer. From a strictly technical point of view she is patently a good singer. I just don't like her voice. And just because I tend to dislike what material she chooses to perform, does not make it 'crap' music. In fact with some of the tradtional stuff I've been impressed with the arrangements she's performed them in. Kate Rusby is a good performer and musician. She's just not to my taste.

But an awful lot of people do equate whether they personally enjoy something with whether it's 'good' or not.

On the other hand, I think it has to be taken into account, that professional performers do large numbers of gigs over the course of a career. Any one gig can only be a snapshot of that performer. A performance of any standard - no matter how good or bad, in that time and in that place. But it's also a snapshot of the person watching them.

I've seen bands that I know I like and have come away feeling almost cheated at how uninspiring or unentertaining that band has been at that performance. But how much was it them having an off day and much much was it me having a bad day?

How many acts have I seen that were pretty dire, but I've no desire to rubbish them in the least? Happy to give them the benefit of the doubt, that they might improve, that they were having a bad day. Because I was in a good mood.

There's an interaction between audience and performer, that gives live music that buzz we all look for. Otherwise why would we bother? But it's not an exact science (thank goodness) and both performer and audience has to take their chances. Which is part of the frission that we want. If this is not what you want, why would you bother going to live performaces?

A certain level of objectivity is necessary when discussing performances and music. Realising that, although you may not have enjoyed what the person was performing or how they were doing it, does not automatically make that performance/performer 'bad'.

If a professional performer has performed poorly, an objective look at past performance (and the meer fact that they appear to earning a living must count for something...) would be the obvious comparison to make, before making a critisism.

Just declaring that someone is 'crap' because they didn't perform to your expectations (whatever they were) is not critisism. There's no reasoned observation and comparison to put a case as to why you thought the performance poor. It's just slagging someone off because you were dissapointed. Which is, frankly, childish.

And as for singarounds and open mike nights, getting performances that vary from appalling to rough around the edges to brilliant is part of the charm, you take the rough with the smooth. If you can't, don't go!

Stu


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:24 AM

'I!'


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: TheSnail
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:25 AM

This question from the man who said -

I think 'traditional' music is a load of bullshit. An insult to my intellect. Nobody handed this pile of rubbish down to me.

Not just a singer but an entire genre.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:26 AM

Tee-hee!


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:16 AM

There seem to be a whole series of reasons.
Lizzie said "jealousy", and she is right, but part of it seems to be a feeling that the artists in question are sucessful, but don't deserve to be. Perhaps because their music is simple and easily accessible to the general public, the critic feels that this is a result of a lack of talent or seriousness. The way in which "popular" performers like Daniel O Donnell or Kenny G are reviled typify this motivation.
As the Villan says, far too many people are unable to make the disinction between "I don't like it" and "It's bad music".
There is great music I don't like (Mahler or Nine Inch Nails for example) and rubbish that I love (Jonathan Richman or Old Rock and Roll Ballads).
Then there is the underlying idea that only a good person can make good music. If you follow this line of reasoning, you despise the music of people whose lifestyle or opinions you disapprove of.
The truth is, you can make excellent music with people you can barely bear to speak to, and people whose views you despise can blow you away with their music.
Cheers
Dave


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

The truth is, you can make excellent music with people you can barely bear to speak to, and people whose views you despise can blow you away with their music.

... and I've made some rubbish music with some of the nicest people I know!


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 07:28 AM

Somewhere I read the great comment that critics bear the same relationship to artists as astronomers to the stars:

They can tell people what the stars are doing, but they have no business and no power to tell the stars what to do.


Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

Mr. Happy - aaaagghh! You got me! :-)

Sorry for my misunderstanding! :-)


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:40 AM

To be honest mate I think it is because people are cruel or think their opinions are more imprtant than the feelings of anyone else.
They may dress it up in some way to appear to be being reasonable but that is my opinion.
I am with Villan on the "Just because I dont like it doesnt mean its crap" thing
I think if you go,even pay to go see someone who is not up to your own high standard on the day,you should applaud and be kind.

It suprises me how many people who dont ever perform think you are in desperate need of their opinion.
Most of those that do(perform) know if they played ok or sang flat and want to be told thank you mate I enjoyed that.
Some of us are our own worst critics and dont need anyone to tell us.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 08:53 AM

well Mr Mollusc

I never said I didn't like anybody. Or even that I didn't like traditional music. Its just not the way to go for me, and apparently not for all that many other people.

My father in law and mother in law went to to see the late great Peter Bellamy perform, and couldn't make head nor tail of his drift. they didn't say anyting though, they didn't express themselves.

I think on reflection - its bad manners that offend me.

But your allowed to think your own thoughts, and express them - in a generalised sort of way.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:19 AM

It takes a lot of guts to get up in front of a bunch of strangers and sing; especially unaccompanied.
Encouragement can do wonders, constructive criticism should be accepted for what it is. Downright nastiness can destroy people's confidence.
My usual response is 'come up here and show me how it should be done then' if I get a real tosser.
I'm usually met with embarrassed shuffling...


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:41 AM

As far as music critics go, for the most part I ignore their comments. I am well able to judge whether I like a performance or not.I admit that constructive criticism, rendered in a non-offensive manner, does have merits, though.
    That said, I have attended quite a number of folk festivals and it has been my experience that folk audiences are courteous and appreciative.Their harshest criticism is manifested by polite applause.I don't feel that they are "mean" to singers.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:35 AM

There's nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:41 AM

I tend to agree. folk audiences are usually courteous. Certainly compared to the working mens clubs and pubs where I gigged for many years.

However, I don't think Alex and Ewan and Big Tom really need postive criticism at this point in the game - even when proffered by the knowledgeable people on mudcat.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Santa
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 10:54 AM

When Cromwell had his portrait painted, he wanted it "warts and all". Posterity does not benefit from bowdlerised versions of history. If a singer (no particular on in mind) was drunk at times, or excessively foul-mouthed, or ignored his audience, then that's part of the performer as well has his generosity, fine voice, and musical skills.

The dead don't need positive or negative criticism: but the living deserve the full story.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Mad Jock
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:00 AM

Whats the difference between HIV and a critic?













Sometimes HIV is positive!


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:05 AM

'"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."'

Theodore Roosevelt


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:36 AM

Jesus, Peace, folk clubs must be scary places where you live!

Nigel


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

Roosevelt clearly never sat through some of the toe-curlingly awful singarounds that I've endured. Singarounds featuring performers for whom the kindest recognition would not be a polite round of applause but a canvas jacket with very long sleeves...


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Peace
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 11:48 AM

Nigel, it's a real SOB to do a set dressed like this. We got tought critics here


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Ernest
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:29 PM

Peace,
we are talking folk here, not heavy metal ;0)

Ernest


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Waddon Pete
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:34 PM

But I'll bet the reverb. and acoustics through the helmet are amazing!

As I think I have opined elsewhere....those who can, sing. Those who can't, carp! Except, of course for those lovely people in my last audience! They were courtly and appreciative!

Best wishes,

Peter


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:43 PM

Darowyn - please don't call me Lizzie - apart from the fact that when I was called that 25 years ago, I spelled it with a 'y'; I am not and have never been the other 'Lizzie' who is banned and some folks have been getting us mixed up.

LTS


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 02:44 PM

I can't sing but I'm buggered if I'm going to swim around a pond all day...

Cheers

Nigel


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Tootler
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:00 PM

Roosevelt clearly never sat through some of the toe-curlingly awful singarounds that I've endured. Singarounds featuring performers for whom the kindest recognition would not be a polite round of applause but a canvas jacket with very long sleeves...

A fine example of the kind of negative comment that is being discussed, mostly politely, in this thread.

Capt. Ginger.

What have you done to help those "toe curlingly awful" performers to improve?


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:12 PM

LTS - don't blame Darowyn. The "jealousy" post was actually Lizzie C's, but it seems to have been deleted....

Kitty


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 03:52 PM

Ah, that explains a lot, although confusing because I mentioned the Green Eyed Monster in my posting. Sorry Darowyn.

Frankly, I'm getting sick of being mistaken for Lizzie C... it's happening a little too often. Just remember, even though they perform a lot in my ancestral village of Abbotsbury, I am not that fond of Show of Hands! I like them; I've never seen them do a bad or drunken show, they're obviously kind to children, animals and the mentally unstable, but I can't remember the last time I felt the urge to deify them.


LTS


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 04:34 PM

What have you done to help those "toe curlingly awful" performers to improve?
At various times I have suggested; learning a song rather than reading it from a sheet of paper, practising it, trying to find a song more suited to the singers' voice, singing something other than a 42-verse dirge in a time-limited and raucous pub session and even taking up mime or macrame rather than singing.
The fact is, there are some people who like to sing but who are absolutely bloody awful. It's the price we pay for the 'inclusivity' of fok, I suppose. For myself, that's when I take myself off to the bar, go and have a prolonged pee or find an old mate to natter with. I'm afraid I don't do the warmy, huggy "everyone's equal in song" schtick. I get precious few opportunities to enjoy a decent singaround, and get pissed off by the care-in-the-community noodlers and mumblers with absolutely no talent who have clearly never been subject even to constructive criticism.
Yes, we all start somewhere - I started in the bathroom and the garden shd and worked my way up to singers' nights at my local folk club and it was a long time before I felt able to sing in a public session - but some folk seem to take the piss out of the courtesy of the average folk gathering.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 05:00 PM

Isn't this the nature of the beast, Captain Ginger. I suppose I used to get offended many years ago - when I had worked really hard at what I did, but was cold shouldered as though I had 'sold out' whilst someone reading a traddy piece from an exercise book (and getting that wrong) would be treated to rapturous applause.

Some people feel that that is what 'the tradition' and the purpose of a folk club is. And just by singing the old songs in any fashion they can manage, they are doing something valuable. And who are we to say they're wrong?

like I say - its not the way, the truth, and the light for me - or by the sound of it, for you. But I think we're outnumbered on mudcat. And you have to respect a majority decision - even if you can't agree with it.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:13 PM

Eric the Red (and the person he's quoting - Sibelius?) is wrong - they *did* put up a statue to a critic:

http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/3/3_pss_members_wilson_stereo_cards_-_602_wilsons_statue_edinburgh.htm

It's still there.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 06:18 PM

Captain Ginger - why not form a club with the Countess? There you can get together and tell everyone who wants to sing that they are not "Good enough for Folk"?

Good luck keeping members.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Bert
Date: 23 Oct 07 - 09:55 PM

I have noticed that really good singers and musicians never put down others and are always supportive.

I went to workshop one time where Tom Paxton was critiquing our songs. It was pretty typical as sessions go with efforts ranging from brilliant to bloody awful. Out Tom didn't have a bad word to say to anyone. Every comment was very positive and kind.


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 03:36 AM

yeh Tom didn't have to sit through them every week though....


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:30 AM

I sometimes think (not very often - but I do sometimes) why are people so NICE to some singers? Elton John or David Bowie, for example?


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Subject: RE: why are people so nasty to singers?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Oct 07 - 04:36 AM

Elton John or David Bowie, for example?

Which sinarounds do they frequent?


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