Davey Graham: what a waste

Subject: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:31 PM

Tonight two friends and I saw Davey Graham in Worcester. I don't want to name the venue because what I want to say has nothing to do with the excellent venue, but entirely the responsibility of the performer.

Now I know there are other threads at the moment about paying singers and musicians their due respect and appreciating the effort they put in, even if they aren't, in the opinion of the listener, very good. I wholeheartedly agree with all of that. It's a different matter, I think, when the artist shows a complete lack of respect for themself or their audience, as is the case here.

Davey Graham arrived on stage at about 9.30pm after two support acts. As he stood by his case to get his guitar out, I thought I saw him totter. At first I dismissed this, as he's hardly a youth any more and one can get less steady on one's legs in 'senior' years. Then he sat down to play and he was slurring his words. The first piece was awful: lots of fluffed notes and his timing was all over the place. By the end of the first piece he was dribbling, and this continued. In the next few pieces his timing got progressively worse, and increasingly notes were not just fluffed but plain wrong. I was sat in the front row, only about 15 feet from DG, and by the third piece I could smell the alcohol. More and more I noticed how leaden his eyes looked, his eyelids opening and closing in slow motion. His speech became not just slurred, but incomprehensible. I found myself looking into my lap and shaking my head in disbelief. Nothing I can write here can convey just how bad it was.

After about 20 minutes the three of us walked out and went upstairs to the bar, unable to take any more. We were not the only ones to leave early. It was embarrassing and maddening to think we had paid £17.50 for this. I can go onto the streets of any major city any night of the week and see people drunk and incapable. And I wouldn't even have to pay for the privilege. But I don't count that as entertainment.

But it got worse. 10 minutes later, after only half an hour of Davey Graham dribbling, talking incomprehensively and playing appallingly, a steady flow of people came into the bar. We thought they had all walked out en mass, but no: Davey Graham had finished his performance and left the stage. We were soon in conversation with a steadily growing crowd of angry and bewildered people who could not believe they had witnessed a drunk and incapable man on stage, performing for little more than *half* the time of the main supporting artist (John Smith, who was great, by the way). A crowd of us went to the MC to complain, knowing it would make no difference, but also knowing we would feel better if we said our piece. So we did.

I will still play and enjoy Davey Graham's old albums. I still appreciate all he has done for guitar playing. But I am afraid I have now lost all respect for the man as he is now. It is obvious he has no respect for himself or his audience. What a waste.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: BanjoRay
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:36 PM

How about feeling a little sorry for the guy?
Ray

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 07:42 PM

Why would I feel sorry for him? His state is entirely self-inflicted. Either he, his management or his friends should have the good sense to prevent/talk him out of going on a stage. But mostly, he should have the good sense to say no. He is personally responsible for what he puts into his body and professionally responsible for putting on a good performance. On both counts he scores zero.

I am reminded of Amy Winehouse's father: don't buy my daughter's CDs or go to her gigs, as you are just feeding her drug habit. I wonder how drunk I have helped Davey Graham get?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tom of Bedlam
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:19 PM

I saw Davey Graham play just under a year ago and had a very similar experience. I found it rather difficult to watch.

However, I would perhaps qualify the statement that his condition was 'self-inflicted'; I think some of the blame for his state, on stage at least, can be laid with his current management, the individuals involved (I won't name names) certainly don't seem to help matters and the most commonly expressed feelings I have heard across when the topic of Davey comes up are of concern. It all appears to border rather closely on exploitation, both of the fans and of Davey himself.

A very sad state of affairs.

Tom

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 08:24 PM

Davey's not the first great performer in the folk world who's been cursed with drinking problems, and he won't be the last. Matt McGinn wrote a great song about it :

I've been sailing through troubled waters
That knew no calm.
The wind was wailing o'er those waters
And my sorrow knew no balm.
Troubled waters, troubled waters, troubled waters in my soul.

I've been drinking troubled waters
To ease my mind
But in those waters, troubled waters
No solace could I find
Troubled waters, troubled waters, troubled waters in my soul.

Srorm clouds gather o'er those waters
No haven had I
I wandered o'er those waters
No love had I
Troubled waters, troubled waters, troubled waters in my soul.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:23 PM

It's a shame that it's such a great waste & it is a pity & entirely self-inflicted too. I'd be rather pissed if I had paid that much to see a drunk perform poorly. His handlers may be party to blame for poor managment but he's the one giving them the OK to exploit. I'm sure that word will pass & venues will no longer book him but his people shouldn't be premoting him while he's in this stae. It's only more humiliting to himself when he wakes up & he stirs from his s/blunder. Had they told him to get fixed first they might have helped & at least he would have the face, if he did succeed in getting dried up, to make a decent comeback. Everyone loves a winner freshly back fom the grave but no ones loves to watch loser when they're on the slide going under.

Barry

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 07 - 11:31 PM

I have in thepast year or so been to watch two gigs of relevance here. One was of an electric band that I used to love to pieces, and the other of a seminal acoustic guitarist.

Both were a huge disappointment. The notes were there in order, the words were there in order: but the fire, the passion of performance was gone. IMHO they were just going through the motions to collect their pay cheque. I feel in a way that that is a greater betrayal of the artist's patrimony than getting legless.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:00 AM

Are you sure that's what happened? Even when he was good, this guy was weird. Like everyone else, I saw the tv documentary and I could see he'd taken his eye off the ball a bit.

I saw him a few times in the 1960's. There was always something a bit disquieting about his style. It was never quite what you were expecting off the records - more improvised, less structured. At some points he just seemed to ignore the original theme and go 'free form' - as we called it in those days, or he'd say 'this is in 15/17 rhthym' and who the hell was counting?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:23 AM

I remember back in the 70's he turned up at the Coach House, Farningham with Diz Disley, and was so stoned he could hardly put two notes together. It wasn't improvisation, it was just plain awful. Not much seems to have changed.

Sad indeed, but at the end of the day we're all big boys and girls and must take responsibility for our actions.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:59 AM

Thanks for posts, folks. It's sad to know I am just the next mug to have the experience of an incapable DG. I knew he had a reputation for being unreliable (not turning up for gigs or even a whole tour) and for being stoned. I just thought that, since he was touring again and had a new album out, he had probably straightened himself out. I was wrong.

At the beginning of the gig I looked at the half empty venue and wondered why a legend like Davey Graham hadn't filled it. One minute after DG appeared on stage I stopped wondering: obviously many others already knew what I had to find out out for myself.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:16 AM

It is awfy easy tae condem these men. My dad had his own band for years and the ammount of drink folk sent up was ridiculous. My dad was a strong man and refused drink when it was sent but his two brothers had a weekness for the stuff if it was sent their mouth opened. week men need strong friends.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:50 AM

Ian the cookieless

"entirely self inflicted...."
I completely heartless statement, if and when a serious situation develops for you, particularly if it is in the area of mental health, I hope you have people round you who are nothing like your statement makes you sound.

As to the general point about Davey; I think it is inadvisable for him to be touring from lots of points of view. Lets just send him some money anyway.
A lovely and hugely talented man who has been unfortunate to have encountered multiple addictions.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 04:56 AM

Unfortunately, the life of a 'gigging' musician tends to encourage this end result.

The following is MY experience only & when I say musicians I am talking about pro's & semi-pro's in folk, country, blues & rock. Lots of work in working mens clubs in the North of England.

All my musician friends/acquaintances are either divorced, separated and/or big drinkers. (I can actually think of no exception to this but hope there is one).

When you turn up for a gig you need to be there before the audience so you arrive early to set gear up, sound check etc.
The landlord/host offers you a drink.
When set up the audience start to trickle in & some fan will insist on buying you a drink.
In the break, old & new fans will offer drinks as will the host.
Members of the opposite sex will become 'friendly'. If you have been on the road for a while this can be very tempting.
When the gig is over you have the gear to clear away. Often the landlord/host will offer a drink whilst you do so.

For a solo performer it is a lonely life & the temptations are great.
Amazes me that there are lots who don't become alcoholics.

Still annoys me when a 'professional' act cannot deliver the goods though.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:30 AM

I know what you mean Little Hawk, but I shouldn't have thought Davy fitted into this pattern. Since he was very young, he's had recording contracts, listening audiences, enormous goodwill from the folkscene, and reverence from the guitar playing community - such as it is. I can't think of one major guitar magazine that hasn't done a feature on him.

I'm sorry if he's hit problems in his life. I think of him as a young man striding down Greek Street, looking very fit and looking decidedly exotic in a huge straw sombrero. He was always a remote sort of character, but you'd never have guessed at it ending like this. I hope he will figure out some of the answers to his problems and it doesn't end like this.

Subject: Lyr Add: FIRST YOU LOSE THE RHYMING (H Andrews)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:56 AM

FIRST YOU LOSE THE RHYMING. [Harvey Andrews]


First you lose the rhyming
then you lose the timing
Then you lose the money
then you lose the friends
And you try for one more song
But the words don't come and the chords are wrong
Whisky bottle won't last long before it ends

I met him in a bar room in Chicago
I was writing what became of names we knew
About the ones who'd let their shooting star go out of sight
The one-hit wonder boys who never grew
And I asked him, Sir, what happened then to you
He said;
Chorus

He told me, It's an old and tired story
You'll need a way to make it sound brand-new
So tell 'em that I had my share of glory once all right
But I had somebody strong to see me through
And she told me all the things I shouldn't do
she said;
Chorus

But I did all a young man does with money
With all those young girls coming on so strong
And that's how come I lost my little honey to the road
'Cause she went off and wrote it in a song
And now you see her up there on the T.V.
She's a superstar and everybody knows
She sings a broken heart just like it should be sung each night
And I never miss a second of her shows
And I know the way the chorus always goes

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Hamish
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:08 AM

I had a similar experience in Brighton in February. Here's what I posted to the uk.music.folk newsgroup:

"How very, very sad. Went to see Davey Graham last night in Brighton. But he's really not up to the job, I'm afraid. There were spells during the performance where you could see and even hear some of the spark that was once there, but by and large it was an uncomfortable evening for the audience who were shocked and embarrassed but also, incredibly, very warm and supportive throughout. "

and:

"If he came to pretty much any club I've ever been to unannounced and unrecognised, they wouldn't mind too much if he came back or not. By no means the worst floor spot I've ever seen; but on any given night he'd be there or there about."

and here's what his agent replied:

"The morning of the Brighton concert was the height of the snow in Oxfordshire. I had to have the car towed for three miles to get to a passable main road. Davy had a streaming head cold which had affected his hearing slightly. We were trying a new small bodied Martin OM-31 that wasn't quite set up to our high standards.
The seating arrangement seemed to be a bit weird. Looking sideways. We are going to just do small theatres in the sense of tiered seating
from now on.
Davy played well. Not like a boxer, more like an older bull-fighter.
Attempting dazzling moves.
He is currently staying in Gloucestershire getting things together for the album, and appreciates everyone's support. The gig the week after in Exeter was much better. Its a long road. Each performance is
unique. There is some more work needed to fix some problems. Its
personal to Davy and I don't want to have to spell that out too much.
We are doing more gigs now and just one so-so performance gets a
dissproprtionate ammount of attention. It is only a hall, and a
gathering, and an idea really. Its nice when the audience mixes and
talks to one another. London doesn't suit him and never has, but I can only do what I can do.
Mark Pavey"

Draw whatever conclusions you like.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Black Hawk on works PC
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:21 AM

Sorry WLD but its Black Hawk not Little Hawk - different fella!

I was generalising about (solo) artists & trying not to pick on one case!
With the 3 similar threads in progress this seemed the most appropriate!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:28 AM

Daveys problems are mostly self inflicted, he deliberately addicted himself to heroin because his blues guitarist idols were addicts.

Don't know about the booze but I've not a lot of sympathy.

eric

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:34 AM

And you don't think that indicates that things were already unraveling then eric, you big old softie?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 06:36 AM

Very sad. Seen it before. What's bad about all this is that he is still getting on stage and taking money under false pretences. One can only think that his management are squeezing the last drop out of a reputation established long ago. Anyone who really respected the man should tell him to hang up the guitar and not take it down again until he can offer a fair night for a fair wage.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Grab
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:00 AM

FWIW, comparison to Bert Jansch. BJ was wiped out for a long time, but kicked the booze (because it was a choice between that or dying!) and started working again. I'm too young to have seen him the first time around, but in his second (sober) incarnation he's a damn good performer. Shame that DG hasn't got his shit together - maybe he needs the same ultimatum of "quit or die" to wake him up. :-(

Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:09 AM

Trust me, that ultimatum often does not work with alcoholics and addicts - thats the nature of the illnees/condition sadly.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:43 AM

Some people manage to perform well when drunk - I've never seen Cathal McConnell performing sober, but when on stage he always manages to sing and play well and with his inimitable patter.

If you can't pull that one off, you either shouldn't be drinking or shouldn't be performing.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:44 AM

Just to respond to a few points, since I initiated the thread.

mattkeen, I don't think my (and others in this thread) saying that Davey's condition is "entirely self inflicted" is, as you put, it, a "completely heartless statement", but a statement of the obvious. Whoever strapped him down and forced alcohol into his mouth? If he is an addict, it is his choice to remain one or do something about it. As you rightly say, an ultimatum "often does not work with alcoholics and addicts - thats the nature of the illnees/condition sadly." In other words, it's his choice, his behaviour is in his hands alone, and the only way out is to make different choices. No amount of sympathy stops an addict from being an addict. Nor does any sort of help from any source - not until the addict decides to stop and accepts he is in trouble, then the help can be accepted.

It sounds as if his management is in the business of making excuses for him and brushing his appalling performance under the carpet. I think it's obvious why, and it's a scandal.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:47 AM

I've been to about 8 of DG's gigs over the past couple of years. His performances have ranged from poor to embarrassing to downright farcical. I have not seen him in the state described above, though it does not surprise me. On the occasions I saw him at least, one couldn't blame the booze. One very well known artist and contemporary of Davey told me straight: 'his brains are fried'.

I am not sure to what extent he is in charge of his own affairs. As has been hinted above, there are 'other interests' at work. A certain individual, already mentioned above so I won't repeat the name, was advised not to take him on the road as 'it would kill him'.

I sincerely hope that the quest to cash in on the name of one who was arguably the most influential British guitarist of our age, does not cause Davey any more harm than has already taken place. As for his reputation - I fear it is probably beyond repair now. And that's a great shame.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:11 AM

As someone who's worked with street homeless people with addictions, I reckon some of the 'self inflicted' comments ARE a bit hard hearted, to say the least. No, no-one 'straps you down' but it's never that simple. I've seen a lot of people over the years who are basically self-medicating against a hostile world...

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:14 AM

I also think this is an almost entirely pointless and negative thread about kicking some poor sod when he's down - with a few honourable exceptions - and I'm not going to do any more to keep it alive.

Cheers

Nigel

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:15 AM

But Nigel, when they are stoned, dribbling and incapable, would you want to pay £17.50 to see them on a stage?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

My wife thought about buying me a ticket for his concert as a surprise present, but elected to ask me I if still loved his music. I'm glad she asked - yes I love his music, but knew of his problems and said thanks, but no thanks to seeing him now. There are a number of other performers still trading well on past reputation, and none of them would I pay good money to see.

Anyone who loved Tony Capstick and saw him often enough would have witnessed some embarrassing evenings; it's very very sad to see someone you admire so much keep pushing the self-destruct button.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:20 AM

I posted the above message in between Nigel's two messages (probably obvious). Of course this thread is negative: it's about a negative experience, it's about someone once great who should not be on a stage, for his own good as much as anything else. But it is not pointless. My intention was to tell the story to prevent others from having the experience we had. I want the man to be remembered for what he was, not what he is. That's most likely if he stops performing now, or if people choose not to go.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:23 AM

Davey Graham is due to play in Gateshead next Monday. I've already bought a ticket, and despite the discouraging reports on this thread, I still intend to go, hoping that he manages (as he has done before) to rediscover his technique, and his zest for playing. If he succeeds, it will be an evening to treasure. And even if he fails, I won't consider the time (or the ticket price) wasted.

Maybe this tour is a big mistake. Perhaps Davey's friends should have persuaded him to stay at home until he pulled himself together, or simply advised him to give up performing in public entirely. But so long as the tour is still going ahead, I believe Davey deserves a show of solidarity from all of us who admire his past work, and who still hope he might produce something comparable with it in future.

Everyone who loves the music of the steel-strung acoustic guitar owes this man an enormous debt.   He virtually re-invented the instrument, revealing potentialities in it that were unsuspected until he came along.   Outside a relatively small circle of knowledgeable admirers, he has never received sufficient recognition for this achievement. And today, even if the ravages of time and self-neglect have brought him to the state described by some contributors to this thread, we still owe him.

If Davey's management is reasonably honest, then the fraction of my ticket money that eventually reaches him should be enough to buy him a meal. Even if the concert is a total washout, I won't regret doing that for him – and there's still a chance that he will get it right on the night.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:24 AM

This thread is not going to help Davey Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:26 AM

Any half civilised country would have awarded him a pension for composing one of the most influential pieces of guitar music in the history of the world.

A far more significant contribution to the culture of this country than the present Poet Laureate has come up with.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:41 AM

Captain Birdseye: "This thread is not going to help Davey Graham."

I have no relationship with the man, so have no way of helping him directly, but as I posted above: "I want the man to be remembered for what he was, not what he is. That's most likely if he stops performing now, or if people choose not to go."

In my own tiny way, I am trying to help Davey Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: mattkeen
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 08:43 AM

What makes somebody an addict/alcoholic is precisely the fact that they do NOT have the ability to choose about taking the bloody stuff.

You obviously don't understand that.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Santa
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:08 AM

mattkeen: obviously understanding differs on this point. Addicts can and do have the choice of taking steps that would reduce or cure their addiction. Perhaps it does take falling to an extreme condition, or the help of true friends: thankfully I wouldn't know. I suspect it varies with the individual, but I do know that many have taken those steps, and have been cured or at least alleviated their condition. Yes, the man deserves some sympathy - although how much self-afflicted harm deserves sympathy is open to some discussion - but if his brain really is "fried" he shouldn't be placed into the position of taking money under false pretences. If it isn't "fried", then he should be encouraged to detox.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:13 AM

He was never my favourite performer - but he does not deserve the sniffy opprobrium being handed out my some here.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:29 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davey_Graham

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Friend of Bill
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:34 AM

I'm an alcoholic - but I've been sober for 14 years. One thing the alcoholic needs is for folks to be honest with him. It's the one disease that convinces you that you don't have it. Don't rescue the man. Until he hits bottom he won't be willing to get the help he needs. Trust me - I've been a Davey Graham type - but I was able to make it back. He can too. Assuming that alcohol is the real problem. If he has the capacity to be honest with himself he can turn his life around.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:40 AM

As he was here:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cFB6xj1xHnM

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 09:45 AM

p.s. read the YouTube comments

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:01 AM

Apart from Angie, what has he done? His albums during the 60s and 70s were shit, even the hopelessly over-rated "Folk, Blues and Beyond," which contains the much vaunted version of Better Git It In Your Soul, but which, to my ears at least, is very pedestrian. Compare it to Bert Jansch and John Renbourne's beautiful rendition of Goodbye Pork Pie Hat: Two artists with a substantial body of work behind them. The least said about his voice, the better. (After saying that, I did enjoy "The Complete Guitarist", released in 1979, which showed that he was a very good guitarist, even if he broke no new ground - and he didn't sing (hooray) on it.)

As for being a drunk and a junkie, I do feel sorry for the man, who, from what I can gather in articles and interviews, seems like a decent sort. Even if it is self-inflicted, drunks and junkies are rarely in control, and if he lacks the character to take back control, again, not his fault.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Grimmy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:05 AM

Being drunk on stage a couple of times doesn't make you an alcoholic, as seems to be the assumption here.

I have talked to him both before, after and even during several of his gigs (we're talking the past two years here) and, though not the easiest man to communicate with, he was certainly not worse the wear for drink on those occasions.

Alcohol is not the problem.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tom of Bedlam
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:12 AM

Penguin Egg, that may be your honest opinion, but there are ways to say things, and that wasn't put very well.

As to your question, what has he done? Davey Graham created the style of guitar that Bert Jansch and John Renbourn used; just ask them. Without him there wouldn't have been the version of Goodbye Porkpie Hat you enthuse over, because it owes its in technique and theoretical approach entirely to that first seen on 1959's 'The Guitar Player', an album that pretty much invents the idea of the guitar instrumental in a non American blues or classical setting, even if it does have a rather overenthusiatic drummer. Folk-blues guitar and jazz were mutually exclusive in this country before Graham, as were Folk-Blues guitar and trad.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Friend of Bill
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 10:13 AM

"Alcohol is not the problem."

The only person who really knows is Davey Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 11:14 AM

"Apart from Angie, what has he done?"

Even if that were all he'd done. It would be enough. Most of us expend a lifetime's efforts without achieving s fraction of that. It doesn't come free. Its accomplished by creative effort, divergent thinking, and makinng a sensual relationship with the instrument that is born from hours of practice.

If it were easy - every bugger would be doing it. And as the Radio 2 federation of crackpots try to unload yet another totally unmemorable pile of shite on us as the next new thing - take a good listen to it. that's the sound of people who don't even know how to start making that kind of creative effort. And the sound of djs and programme producers who have never understood that.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 11:37 AM

'Angie' probably had more effect on the world of guitar playing than any other piece of music. The ripples from Davey Graham's creative spash of genius are still spreading outwards.

He was playing 'world music' before the term had even been invented.

Oh yeah, and he invented a new guitar tuning too.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 11:54 AM

Surely Bluesleeves was Davey Graham too.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:04 PM

It is currently fashionable to knock Davy (NB this is how he currently spells his name) Graham and it's been cropping up periodically on one forum or another over the past couple of years.

I have been loath to contribute to this latest assassination attempt because, as has been remarked more than once, such a thread is not helping.

I have, however, known Mr Graham (not well but intermittently) for around 40 years. I knew him best when, back in the 60s and living close to C# House where I worked, he underwent and survived a spell of heroine addiction.

The whole point of addiction is that it is not self-inflicted. Other than falling in love with which it has remarkable similarities, it is the one human activity that is not an act of will. It happens and the person so afflicted has no control over it, nor does s/he even admit that there might be a problem. Unless and until they do, there is no hope of resolution and it is pointless to be prescriptive about what they 'should' do. All friends can do is suggest 'maybe you might . . . ' and be supportive wherever possible.

I know not whether Davy is back on the H or just the booze. I have seen him perform twice fairly recently and he was fine in the musical sense, with comprehensive and fairly comprehensible preambles and good (though not brilliant) execution. OK, he was odd but that's part of the charm. His illness is more frightening but is absolutely not a signal for opprobrium and abuse from erstwhile 'fans'.

Think on. You might be there yourself some day.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:09 PM

Good heavens!

I agree.

But I do like the idea of "heroine addiction" - is it a bit like Modesty Blaize?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM

Oops, well, I think he did a bit of both. Who knows, really?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:18 PM

Diane Easby, well said.
Davy Graham was the first person to popularise Dadgad,and has been an extremely influential guitarist.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:20 PM

Thanks, Santa. You said exactly what I wanted to say, only you probably said it better than I would be able to.

The testimony on the BBC page and youtube testifies that DG has a real problem. It's a real shame, as after the gig we were approached in the street by a young couple (probably early 20s), far too young to know of Davey's old greatness first hand, who asked, 'Weren't you just at the Davey Graham gig?' They then asked us if he's always that bad. I told them, with a mixture of sadness and some anger at paying money for a very short length of old rope, how ground-breaking, breath-taking and influential he has been. Alas, in his present state he is only doing damage. How awful that this was their first - and no doubt last - personal experience of Davey Graham. He needs help. Whether he'd take it if offered is a different question as, by reputation, he's been a junkie since the 60s, so maybe he can't remember anything else. But that's just speculation, of course, so I'll stop there.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Friend of Bill
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:23 PM

It's often said that we only seek help when we get "sick and tired of being sick and tired"

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:27 PM

A few posts above appeared while I was typing mine above. So just to say, Diane, that in no way was my original post intended as an "assassination attempt". If you read my original post I hope you would see this. I had no idea that it "is currently fashionable to knock Davy": I was simply sharing an appalling experience of an incapable performer who should not have been on the stage. You may interpret that as assassination: I am just telling the truth as I, my friends, and those I spoke to afterwards saw it. Everyone was either shocked, angry, bewildered or all three. I am not saying that for effect: that is how it was.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 12:30 PM

"This thread is not going to help Davey Graham"

no one or nothing is going to help Davey Graham except Davey Graham

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:39 PM

The whole point of addiction is that it is not self-inflicted.

Really? heroin addiction is.
Just say no to the first fix.
I did.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 01:46 PM

Pharisees

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:03 PM

To my mind there are two quite separate issues here, but they are being treated as one.

A professional "artist" demands money from the public: they in return have a right to see the artist's skills displayed professionally and competently. An artist who can not do that should not be appearing.

There are many reasons why an artist may no longer be competent at the required level: alcoholism or addiction are not the only reasons. They are not the reason why other giants of the 60s such as Muhammad Ali, Bobby Charlton, Jackie Stewart or Nic Jones no longer "perform". There comes a time when it's best to say "enough", whatever the cause, allowing your public to remember you in your prime.

BTW - I've never seen Davy Graham perform, and therefore have no useful opinion on his competence: if he's still good enough then by all means carry on.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 03:58 PM

To a certain degree, great artists are allowed to get away with behaviour that wouldn't be tolerated in lesser mortals. It is said that Davy started taking drugs because his jazz heroes had gone down that road - always with very bad results, as it happens. Yardbird, Coltrane, Miles, and Chet have all given vert poor performances because of drugs. I would have hated to have recommended to a friend that they go and see Davy, and then have him, Davy, deliver a dreadful performance. I love Davy and a places he has taken me musically. He was/is indeed a complete guitarist in a way that Bert never was, but he needs help. Lots of it.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 26 Oct 07 - 05:22 PM

If the word Pharisee was directed at my last post, then let me answer.
I have lost two great friends and great talents to alcohol. Most of us drink, most of us include alcohol in moderation in our social life, society offers places for that very purpose, but none of us knows if we will become that small number that become alcoholics. I don't hold them in any way to blame. Society says it's okay to take a drink, and most of us do with impunity. Like all the friends of my two friends I tried to help, but in vain.
However, any person who takes the first fix knows what's at stake. Society knows and says don't do it. No one is ignorant of what heroin does to all who take it.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:39 AM

Junkies & alcoholics are different from each other. The drunk has it harder because alcohol is easier to get, more additive (smoking is found to be more addictive than both), mentally & physcially harder to kick than most drugs (methadone being an exception), it's socially more acceptable, it's far easier to be a functioning alcoholic than it is for a junkie & then the legal issues surrounding both favor the drinker. The conditions aren't all that different though both are dependant phyically, mentally & spiritually, it's become their best friend & eventually their only friend. It's gonna be hard to give it up, it's the only thing that gives them comfort, escape, a reason for living, a sense of excitment, a cure from boredrom, the one thing that makes them feel worthy & exceptable & wards off the loneliness & it will stick by them till death do they part.

Almost all alcoholics & junkies can't get a handle on their sicknesses by themselves (there are the few exceptions), they cannot help themselves,,,,yet. It's hard for them to even admit it & see it. That's their 1st step to recovery, to see that they 1st have a problem. Most can't see that they've a real problem, they lie to themselves & tell themselves it's not yet that bad & they can handle it & even then most aren't even willing to or don't have the disire to be saved & even if they did they don't know how to be saved once they're ready. There's none (that I can think of) that I've ever known (& I've known more than just a few hundred) that didn't have to hit absolute rock botton (once they're really addicted) before they are willing or even capable of saying to themselves I need some kind of help & yes, I want help & that's the easiest part for them & it's only the begining, just getting to there is so hard & many can't even get that far. Rock botton isn't just poor health or I'm broke. Rock bottom is when there's no one left in your world that's there for you, what ever you once had is gone. Your money is usually 1st then your spouse & kids & house, your car then your job after that, then it starts to get personnal, you lose your friends then your family then goes your health (well it's already been in serious decline), you have no place to eat (even if you had something to eat), sleep or shit, you are lucky if you end up in jail. Then you lose your humanity, respect has been long gone but if you can trade any body parts or functions you'll sell those in a second. Still this isn't close enough to bottom for many, eventually death is the stopper for a lot. Once the bottom is hit then it's time for the help but the afflicted don't have the resources nor the tools or the knowledge to rise above their conditions & even if they do it's mighty hard for them to pass the temptation to go back. AA has them toughening it out day by day & they need that support system for God knows how long, that should be changed to residential treatment centers but then you've got all the reasons, some good & some bad against that.
Many have to fall & fail a lot before they're able to really find their legs to keep walking (each time they fail it's so much worst for themboth getting back on drugs & getting off again). I've only met a few (actually only 2) who've made it with out some kind of residental rehabilition therapy or treatment & still function without the day to day need for constant support like AA. Here in the US there's very long waiting lists or you need an awful lot of money, at least for drug rehabilition AA is different. The time when a junkie says please help me can quickly fade with weakness if the waits to long & junkies if they have the money it's gonna feed their habit before it gets spent on getting them help.
When they are ready for help they 1st find out that the drug or drink is their best & only friend & that the old habits die hard as do the old haunts & habitats. They then have to find a new way to rebuild a new life & style completely alien to their old one otherwise they'll trap themselves & set themselves up to fail by placing themselves in positions that they're years away from handling properly (remember they've never handled anyting properly before & have to learn). They need to find a new career or profession that they can coup with, new hobbies that will focus on helping them with being bored & give them a sense of excitment, in these they'll hopefully find friends which helps with the extreme loneliness that those that go it alone feel. One doesn't learn how to do these things & so much more on their own, that's why only a handful make it. Out of the hundreds that I've know I can count on 1 hand how many have made it (aside from the 2 I mentioned above). The odds are way less than 1 in 100, probably closer to 1 in 1000, that's why it looks like such a hopeless situation to those trying to recover, they begin to relize what the odds are
.
Yes it's self inflicted & they alone have to chose to do it, but it's a pity that there's not much it the way of preventive education, funds, funds & more funds, true accessable recovery centers that are affordable, with decent staff instead of ex's running the programs & the willingness to see them as criminals instead of victums of a sickness & in part of a society. For some (maybe even more like for many) it starts as a way to just self medicate, that's what's really a crying shame.

Anyway, Davey has it tough & if I knew him I'd feel awful for him but I wouldn't give him a dollar that would contribute to him continuing his self abuse. His manger ought to be shot.

Barry

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:15 AM

Well said Barry,

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:47 AM

I may be missing something but I am not sure I understand the point of this thread. There certainly seems to be some needless spitefulness from some posters.

Davey (Davy) Graham was probably one of the most influential guitarists on the scene and many current performers owe him a great debt for his innovative approach.

If he is going through some personal difficulties, one should support and encourage him, and show some compassion, rather than knocking him (he might well read this thread... how would some of the comments that have been made feel to some of the negative posters if it were them).

Perhaps I am being too simple and, if so, it would not be the first time.

RS

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:51 AM

Both posts from above.

redsnapper: "I may be missing something but I am not sure I understand the point of this thread."

Ian cookieless: "My intention was to tell the story to prevent others from having the experience we had. I want the man to be remembered for what he was, not what he is. That's most likely if he stops performing now, or if people choose not to go."

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:57 AM

Wouldn't it have been better then if you had told your friends and acquaintances rather than broadcasting it on a worldwide forum where others with a less charitable nature have since waded in with their negative pennyworth?

Just a thought.

RS

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:21 AM

I have no control over other people's nature, charitable or otherwise. Everything we do has consequences that can never be predicted. We have to do what we do and hope for the best or do nothing. If someone - especially a legend like DG - is regularly (normally, it now seems) incapable and excruciating on stage, I want people to know so that they don't waste their money and remain with, hopefully, good memories of him.

And what if he reads this? An artist must, somewhere in their consciousness, have in mind that they want their audience to think well of them and enjoy the night. He needs to know the truth. Everyone I spoke to in the audience that night - and it did create a coming together afterwards, a kind of stunned cameraderie, as we all thought it was so awful - thought exactly the same as me and my two friends. They thought the same as every almost person, as far I can tell, who has posted on the web about a performance of his in the last few years. We don't do him any favours by allowing this to continue.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM

redsnapper, if there is someone on this thread who has, as you suggest, been nasty towards DG for the hell of it, I would have made a comment that it was unwarranted. But I have not seen that anywhere on this thread.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Mad Catter
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:34 AM

What are discussion forums FOR if not to discuss? This one is not particularly nasty, there have been some very good posts (Diane and Barry to name two but they aren't the only ones). The man has talent. The man is now not playing as well as he once did. People pay good money to go to his gigs and end up disappointed and (arguably) ripped off. WHAT is the big taboo in starting this thread?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:16 AM

There are a lot of nasty bigoted gits posting on his thread.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:01 AM

"If he is going through some personal difficulties, one should support and encourage him, and show some compassion, rather than knocking him (he might well read this thread... how would some of the comments that have been made feel to some of the negative posters if it were them)."


..seems to me..

if Davey Graham has any genuine true caring friends on his management team..

they should at least encourage him to read this thread

[and any similar on other forums]


as a meaningful part of any process to confront his demons...




ps.. thanks all for reminding me to move "FOLK ROUTES, NEW ROUTES"

closer to the top of my CD purchasing 'wish list'..xmas soon !!!..

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:20 AM

I was just emailed by a mate from Worcester who went to the show. It was along the lines of, 'Is this the bloke you've been banging on about for years? He was off his face and incapable of coherent performance. We left!'.
I'm very saddened to receive this and also very angry about what appears to me an attempt to trade on Davys name by the people surrounding him. His trials and troubles are well documented and its patently obvious that he should not be placed in this situation. Anyone purporting to have his interests at heart should at least be 'minding' him in the fullest sense of the word if it is his will to perform again. He IS capable of quality performance still. I have so far discovered that the booking agency (An excellent outfit with a good reputation, by the way, and known to me personally) who put this tour together sent someone to see him a while back at a gig in the Union Chapel which was very good and they based their decision to book the tour on that show.
Aside from this, I must once again reiterate that Davys 'Folk Blues and beyond' album remains for me one of the most important records ever made. I heard it when I was 14 years old and it has shaped my musical life ever since. It is available currently on fledg'ling records and anyone who wishes Davy well and wants to help him should buy it from them as he gets the royalties denied him by most of the other re releases of his albums.
I sincerely hope that Davys current 'managers' come to their senses and realise that they have to start taking big responsibilty if they continue with any of this (What I consider to be) exploitation.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:43 AM

Mr Beer, any chance you could reveal which DG re-issue labels we shouldn't buy? or is this just a rash generalisation.

Think very carefully as I wouldn't like my hard earned cash to not benefit the artist.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:56 AM

Where did Mr Beer say that?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 01:16 PM

this was what Phil said, regarding past Davy Graham records vis a vie royalties.

"It('Folk Blues and beyond') is available currently on fledg'ling records and anyone who wishes Davy well and wants to help him should buy it from them as he gets the royalties denied him by most of the other re releases of his albums"

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Rebecca Fox
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 02:37 PM

I was also at the aforementioned performance the other night. Whilst there WERE occasional flashes of what made (makes?) Davy such a great, innovative guitarist, these were few and far between. He was obviously aware of how badly it was going, and he had clearly completely given up by the time he announced, "and now for my next mistake..."

Of course, this was just one gig. By all accounts Davy's mental state varies considerably, and he may very well still be capable of putting in some notable performances. However, if his 'manager' was aware of how bad a state Davy was in that night, he quite simply should not have been allowed to go out and attempt to perform. It was not fair on Davy and it was certainly not fair on the audience. I suspect most were, like me, willing it to get better for Davy's sake as much for ours - because it was so so sad to witness.

I'm sorry if that seems negative or nasty to some people, but perhaps you had to have been there.

Peace,

Rebecca

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:57 PM

I have to put in 2 cents, based some handholding of alcoholics.

One cent is for Grimmy, who says "Being drunk on stage a couple of times doesn't make you an alcoholic". Well, yeah it does, if you no longer have enough judgment to stay off the stage when you're so pissed you're jeopardizing your reputation, then alcohol has some control over you and that is my definition of an alcoholic.

The other cent is for the 'self-inflicted' pool. I agree these folks should have decided to put it down very early on, yet very early on they didn't know they were going to be an addict. The problem is, in an alcoholic, the alcohol takes over the brain at some point and starts making all the decisions.

A person addicted to alcohol to the point it's causing problems has long since passed the point where they are total control of their choices, they have no objective judgment left, all they know is they think they are fine and they want another drink.

That's why most people can't just put it down using willpower, they have to be plopped into detox or rehab or some place where alcohol is no longer running the show, for some time until they learn to take control again.

Anyway, I saw a fine musician this year who I thought was dry for life, who is apparently back on it, showed up very dodgy put pulled himself together to play a good concert at half-speed. It breaks your heart.   

It's like watching the Elvis meltdown again, just so pathetic, yet you couldn't have got past that army of sycophants to tell him that if your life depended on it.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 08:44 PM

Well said Phil. A thoroughly professional summation of a sad situation.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 04:26 AM

Ditto for Patty Clink - well spoken. The positive (or at least constructive) messages here outnumber the negative ones, which are more self-righteous than nasty, and mostly show a lack of understanding rather than ill-will. The responses to these are some of the best posts in this thread.

Surely artists want (or need) to know how people Out There are reacting to their work. After all, they ARE taking a fee for services rendered. If the service is below par, it's fair to comment on it.

If Davy does read this it could actually be beneficial to him; and if it causes hurt feelings, it might also be a wake-up call.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 AM

My Brother Jim lives in Australia, and he at this moment is going through a rehab to dry out, he has been drinking alchohol for many years now and now he's faced up to it, I'm glad that he's realized that he can't go on like this.

So I feel sorry for Davy Graham, and also for the people that surrounds him.

Tom
ps
i'm a teetotller

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,steg
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:33 PM

I attended the Davy Graham gig at the Stables, Wavendon, on Tuesday 23rd Oct. John Smith, the support act, was fine, the intermission followed and at around 9.20ish, later than billed, an unknown figure appeared on stage and gave a less than dazzling rendition of some folky/bluesy material-fine for a folk-club floorspot.
DG then took the stage, began to ramble on incoherently and then started to play, very badly.
I left the auditorium,(as did other audience members) after a couple of numbers, unable to stand the embarrassment of watching this guitar icon struggle his way through his set. Whatever his problem is, drink, drugs or illness, he has no right to trade on his former glory in this way. His fingering and timing were well off, and his slurred and obscure ramblings may have made perfect sense to him.
I have admired his playing since I was a teenager but would advise anyone thinking of attending his performances to invest in an early album rather than waste their cash funding Davy's habit, whatever it may be. A sorry sight and one I would not wish to repeat.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: oggie
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:32 PM

Couple of points that also relate to another thread that's on the go.

Not performing is great in theory, if you are financially secure, have a pension etc. If not, how do you keep living? I know I will be working into my seventies.

A promotor has made a profit from each of these gigs, none of them said "sorry, you're not fit to perform" and gave the money back and took the hit.

Anyone here had the balls to say to a "legend", "sorry but you were s**t and pissed and a rip-off?"

Steve

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:52 PM

When you are prepared to take him in and feed him, to provide the analgesics as he withdraws, to make his bed, to make sure he gets to the doctor's to get his scrip and other prescriptions, to make sure he gets to the pharmacist to get the medicines, to support him so he does not need to expose his angst to the remuda-fish that the public are, and to pay his bills - then you can tell him that he would be wiser not to gig.

A performer is not public property.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Mad Catter
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:53 PM

Nope. But how long is either said promoter or said performer going to stay in business if the act is crap? They'll end up losing money anyway - AND the artist's good name along with it.

People may not have the balls to tell a legend they're shit, but they'll say it with their feet.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mad Catter again
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:54 PM

My "nope" was intended for the question in the post above Richard's

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Ian Burdon
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:56 PM

I saw Davy at Edinburgh Folk Club two years ago. As far as I could tell he was not drunk and, again at least as far as I could tell, wasn't drinking. The first half of the show really wasn't very good - he was playing Italian and Spanish tunes with a plectrum on a Fylde guitar with a soundhole pickup and not playing especially accurately (by his standards at least). The result was an overamplified mess (nothing to do with the soundman by the way)   The second half was much better: he played fingerstyle and was cracking jokes from the stage. Towards the end when went back to the plectrum and the quality dipped again.

I spoke to him during one of his breaks when he was happy to sign some old vinyl for me. Again there was no trace of alcohol as far as I could tell, although no attention was being paid to the smoking ban then in force in Scotland - and neither was it tobacco smoke.

From the posts above it would appear that something has happened in the past two years which is a shame.

I was surprised by the tone of some of the posts above. Whatever the rights and wrongs of his continuing to perform if his personal circumstances have robbed him of his skills, his contribution to the development of the guitar in British folk music - both in terms of the capabilities of the instrument and the movement away from four-square picking as an accompaniment - is surely unchallenged. Neither Bert Jansch nor John Renbourn mentioned above would, I think, demur from according him his due status - indeed as I recall one of the things which the young Renbourn set out to do was to learn by heart all of DGs arrangements on The Guitar Player. It is undoubtedly true that the "eclectic" nature of his explorations means that some of the material he recorded on his later albums in the sixties has not stood the test of time, but he is hardly alone in that.

Cheers

Ian

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:59 PM

Not performing is great in theory, if you are financially secure, have a pension etc. If not, how do you keep living?

I imagine that you would have to claim incapacity benefit or income support.

I've known people with drug/alcohol problems who were in other lines of work who have had to do that. Some, that I know, have been sacked because of unreliability as a result of these kind of problems.

I must say that I am very sympathetic to people with these problems but I wouldn't be able to watch somebody make a fool of themselves, it would upset me too much; I'd just leave and not worry about what it had cost me - but I wouldn't do it twice.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:51 AM

that's right kick a man when he's down,

not one of you have the courage to say that you feel sorry for this man, but that's your views.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 05:55 AM

Well some of you have said that you feel sorry for him but not all.

but that's the way you feel.

I just feel sorry for the guy, I have never seen him live, at lest i would stay for the whole concert good or bad.

I mean no one forced you to go did they

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:14 AM

I mean no one forced you to go did they.

Whilst no one forced anybody to go, equally nobody can force anybody to stay. I think everybody has to look after themselves as well as be concerned for other people. If watching something was causing me any distress then I wouldn't watch. I often turn off films and documentaries, even the news, if it is something that is upsetting me.

Arran, I've read this whole thread and I think that quite a few people have shown empathy and sympathy.

However, it's like any job really and sometimes we're just not up to it and sometimes we need help.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:11 AM

Ian Burdon - I was at the same Edinburgh gig and I agree with your observations: drink played no part in affecting his performance (he did have a half in the bar prior to the concert).

And drink played no part in the other 7 concerts of his I have seen since 1995, most of which were poor by anybody's standards.

And yet the consensus on these pages appears to be "Davy Graham is an alcoholic". Great! A misdiagnosis is just what the poor guy needs right now.

Hands up - all those who've been to a DG concert in the past 2 years: how many of you can honestly say that he was drunk and incapable?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:39 AM

Guest, Sminky - you are absolutely right.

I, for one, haven't been to see Davy Graham for years. The last time I saw him he was brilliant.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:54 AM

This thread is an absolute disgrace.
Davy has been the most influential/innovative guitarist in folk terms of the 20 century,how dare anyone tell him,what he needs, are you all doctors,have you diagnosed him.no,
perhaps what he needs is to perform?,I dont know, I am no more qualified than any of the rest of you.
Perhaps old age is reponsible,it may be a contributory factor,none of us know,can you not give the poor fellow a break.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:13 AM

I know I'm not a doctor, as I say I just feel sorry for him, and as you say these people that kick him when he's down think that they are doctors, just leave the man alone please.

but that is up to you

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: John Routledge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:21 AM

Yes Arran and Captain leave the man alone.

I can't say the same about his "agents" however.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:00 AM

I hope I've made my pov clear above.

But it does cast a sidelight on "Does Folk need professionals", doesn't it?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:32 AM

Punters have a right to know if they are likely to have an embarrassing or unpleasant night for their £17.50. If they then choose to take a chance that the artist might have a good night, or they simply want to go along to be supportive, that's their choice. But it's an informed one.

Venues also have a right to know if an artist is regularly turning up to gigs incapable of delivering a performance. It happens from time to time that a band turns up and is pissed, of course - we had one at our festval last year. Nothing was said at the time, but I won't re-book them and if other promoters were to ask me about the band, I'd feel duty-bound to reveal that information.

In any other profession, if you turn up pissed for work you'd get sent home, and possibly sacked. Musicians get away with it because the alternative for the venue is to cancel a gig at short notice, thereby pissing off a large number of people.

I'm not trying to be unsympathetic to Davy Graham, because it seems clear he's being exploited. But so are the audiences and the venues who have booked him.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:32 AM

If I had been the organiser I would have been repaying admission fees and witholding certain outgoings

Was that at the Huntingdon Hall!? I'ld be surprised if it were but then its the prime venue and maybe it does have a sepaparate bar!


Ask fer a refund and if it was a Chris Jaeger promotion let him know how deeply dissappointed you were, I know of some organisers who would have stopped the show early or not let him appear

It should be in the contract, and they do have em

its an image that has changed with the years

I stick to Tea and coffee

As an organiser I booked one artiste and was warned about his drinking

I was lucky , he could hold it, but he was lucky , he had a 'dry' mate

Now Cyril Tawney he was in a league of his own.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:38 AM

Gatehead tonight, Salford tomorrow and High ! Wycombe on Wednesday

Yes it was at Huntingdon you saw him

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:58 AM

I just feel sorry for the man, but i don't feel sorry for these people that walk out on him and then turn on him and his agents these people are just two faced that's all, they would stab you in the back some of them.

As I said I have NEVER seen Davy Graham live, but I would love to go and then make up my own mind about the guy, as I said my brother who is out in Australia is going through rehab to dry out, and I hear that he's down well, but that doesn't mean that Davy graham is like that, as I say I don't what it was like when you saw him, but as i said just leave the man alone, as we all have our problems don't we and we just don't som people to know about them.

however that's up to you.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 11:06 AM

You pays yer money in expectation of some kinda satisfaction.

If you are not satisfied you have grounds to air your opinions

That is not the same as 'turning on and walking out', thats what you do to someone you know very well.


There is a website/home page promoting the tour upon which one can make submissions

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Rebecca Fox
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 11:41 AM

Breezy said "ask fer a refund and if it was a Chris Jaeger promotion let him know how deeply dissappointed you were, I know of some organisers who would have stopped the show early or not let him appear."

I'd just like to make it clear that this was NOT in any way a "Chris Jaeger promotion". However, if you were at the concert please do write or send an e-mail to Worcester Live (see website for contacts).

Thanks

Rebecca

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:14 PM

To all those people being romantically sentimental about this thread I would say that a paid for gig is a contract between artist and audience which both have a responsibility to fulfill. The audience pays and turns up and the artist is contaracted to appear "as known". It seems Davey is mostly incapable of fulfilling his side of the bargain, whether it be by drink or long term drug abuse, or general ill health. Yes, we can all feel sorry for him and hope he gets well, but that has nothing to do with people paying money to be let down. Davey, it seems, is not being told that he cannot do the job anymore and it is important that bookers know this to avoid more embarrasment.
The person who should be dealing with this is the person who is selling him in to venues with a promise based on a reputation that is now being publicly destroyed by word of mouth and by threads like this.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:15 PM

Thanks for that Rebecca, so who runs these shows these days?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:44 PM

Chris still runs the Hall, but this was an outside promoter. I can't really comment further in that regard - but as mentioned before, feedback will be passed on.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Rebecca Fox
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 12:45 PM

That was me, but I forgot to put my name!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 02:09 PM

Breezy ,this thread is about Davy Graham,why do you mention another artist?Completely unecessary and irrelevant.
I have seen the person you,mention many times, performed at festivals with him,followed him at festivals, and he always did a good spot.I also booked him at Bury Stedmunds folk ,and he gave an excellent night, and was not pissed on any of these occasions.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:17 PM

Actually, Wordy, No it isn't. There is a contract between the promoter and teh artist, one between teh venue and teh promoter, and wiht luch many between the venue and the punters. Subject to the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act, only the actual parties to each contract can enforce it.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 07:14 PM

The contract I'm referring to is the unwritten one that should be sacred if you're a performer. Once you take the money, you're theirs and you'd better give of your best. If you're not up to it, you shouldn't take the money. Been my creed through a lifetime of performance. And if I ever get audience reviews like Davey has had here I hope to hell those who love me will see I retire. And then look after me and nurture me back yo health if at all possible.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: TommysDaddy
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:58 PM

Well, I've never seen Davy Graham, but I would not have been encouraged to start playing the guitar if it was not for him, so I hold him in high esteem . .
however, based on this thread, I won't be going to see him in the near future.
I started playing the guitar by learning Davy's Angi note-by-note from a Bert Jansch recording. I worshipped Bert Jansch & John Renbourn's guitar playing in the 70's and saw them both more than once in their heyday - they were brilliant. I then saw Bert again in the early eighties and he was absolutely awful - drunk on stage - I was so sorry for him personally and also disappointed that he had performed like that to a paying audience. I'm so very pleased to hear from "Grab" that Bert is now reformed and on form again. If he comes my way, I'll make the effort to see him.

In a somewhat similar fasion, I heard the classical guitarist Segovia when he was 86 and again when he was 87 - in both cases, he was mind-blowingly brilliant. But then I heard him a few years later at a concert in the Barbican Hall when he was around 93 and he was, let's say 'awful'. Still a lot better than me but playing loads of duff notes. I thought he would have been better advised to have stopped performing a few years earlier. Still, I'm sure that many people went to the concert just to say they had seen him and were content with what they heard, never mind the standard.

It may be the same for some performers in the folk, blues & rock sphere. I went to see Lonnie Donnegan just before he died and he was brilliant. But I've recently heard reports of other 'greats' who obviously have not fared so well.

Over the years, I've heard lot's of folk performers who have not been completely up to scratch on a specific occasion, even though I have known their capabilities on a 'good day'. Sometimes this has been due to a little drink or tiredness or age.

Preferably, I think a true professional should strive to give a spotless performance, but to expect perfection is probably unrealistic.

If we go to see old performers for nostalgic reasons, we should just expect to experience them as they are now, warts and all. Their contribution may well have been great at their peak, but just like an Olympic athlete, we can't expect them to still be contributing at that level forever. Also, for those who don't rate his 'seminal' albums, we could say the same about many things; many things seem insignificant in retrospect because we don't understand the world mind-set of the time they were created. How revolutionary was the idea of the wheel, the earth being round or electricity to a world that had not yet experienced these things ? To many, when first heard, Davy's playing seemed just as revolutionary.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 10:32 PM

It sounds like he is certainly not in a completely rational state. Substance abuse in the extreme makes that impossible. So it is probably a stretch to think that he will make rational decisions, now.

It is really unfortunate that he doesn't have close ones confronting him with his abuse and steering him into getting help. Maybe those close are just trying to milk the income, or perhaps they are at wits ends with not knowing how to take care of the problem.

It is just a sad, terribly sad, and impossible situation. I would bet that most of us would know, close at hand, friends or family members in similar situations, though perhaps not as public.

Astro

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 03:31 AM

By the by, I was saying to a friend of mine the other day that If you see a favourite actor in a play or movie and they stink, you say " God, he/she was bad in that movie" but you'll go and see the next movie he/she is in. With muso's it seems to be that one bad performance kills it for good.
"I wouldn't waste my money, saw him and he was crap." sort of thing.

Just an observation


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:18 AM

Pedant alert: "A contract is an agreement to which the law gives force". I teach my students that every year.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 08:34 AM

Bugsy: I think "bad performances" in films is very much a matter of opinion. From my viewpoint, certain, much respected, actors nearly always give hammy "over-the-top" performances; however, the whole world would have to agree that Davy can be just downright dreadful at times.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 08:37 AM

Just for the record ...

Davy Graham's concert at The Sage Gateshead last night wasn't quite a sell-out, but it attracted a substantial audience. The applause at the end of his set, and the buzz around the CD sales desk afterwards, suggest that most listeners didn't feel let down. Davy himself gave no signs of being ill, or intoxicated. His speech was clear and coherent, and what he had to say was relevant and witty. As for his playing … well, I've heard him play better, but last night he was still worth hearing.

The audacious - and apparently effortless - fluency of his early records seems beyond his reach at present. But we can scarcely expect a sixty-something veteran to recapture the virtuosity and assurance he had in his twenties – particularly while he's still recovering from decades of self-neglect. The TV documentary "Blame it on my youth" and the more recent radio programme "Whatever Happened to Davy Graham?" reveal that Davy went through a long and distressing period during which he hardly ever touched a guitar. There is a very painful moment in "Blame it on my youth" when he tries to play something on a borrowed instrument, showing just how much technique he has lost. Davy has come a long way from there. He still has some way to go before becoming "The Compleat Guitarist" once again, but he's clearly working at it.

Last night, there were moments when I felt he was actually trying too hard. Sometimes he seemed to hesitate, as if trying to make quite sure of hitting the correct note. At other times, he seemed to snatch at the next chord, as if afraid it might escape him. And neither of the instruments he played did him many favours. The classical guitar he started out with had a fairly undistinguished tone. The steel-string he moved on to seemed better at first – but as Davy rushed from one altered tuning to another, its sound gradually deteriorated. I'd have gladly lost one number from the set, if he'd used the time gained thereby to tune the box more accurately for the remainder of them. But maybe the guitar, rather than the player, was at fault. These things do happen.

Anyhow, Davy is on the road again. I hope that this tour has been a positive experience for him, and that his recovery continues after it has finished. If so, his next tour could be really exciting.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 08:58 AM

I am glad to hear it,thankyou Mike.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:39 AM

Another 'Davy Graham sober at gig' sensation.

The impression I got at his recent gigs was that he was 'shooting for the moon' - and falling short. I felt he should perhaps have played simpler pieces and nailed them. Still, Davy will be Davy, though I wish he'd ditch that classical - it's a pig.

I'm heartened by your words, Mike, many thanks.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:44 AM

Mike of Northumbria, I am really, really glad to hear that, after the large number of negative reports of gigs, including my own awful experience that started this thread. It seems, then, there is hope yet for him. Let's hope in future that something like The Sage experience becomes the norm rather than, as it appears now from reports, the exception.

Whether I will chance another £17.50 on a ticket to see him in future remains a moot point, though. Once bitten ...

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 09:45 AM

A famous Scottish band (which will remain nameless) found that they were being rejected when on tour in the States because promoters were fed up with their drunkenness. They straightened up and flew right.

Sometimes economic pressure will motivate a drunk to stop drinking when no amount of pleading from friends and family has helped.

I hope this was the case here.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 10:30 AM

Lets have a whip round and give him his £17.50 back - if it will put an end to this.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:20 PM

Thank you Dick, for your personal input, I will now also mention Alex Campbell, he appeared to do O K but then he wasn't a musician.


The discussion is primarily about drunkem performers hoose perphornancies are less than add d adequate in front of a live , baying ordimence, and the example iused was and is and will be forever more world without drinks D G and the dissapointment his performance generated dissapoint hic

so! p o capnburdshyete

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:04 PM

no Breezy,this thread is about Davy Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Wesley S
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:12 PM

"in front of a live , baying ordimence"

Now THAT's a tough crowd.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:17 PM

I was just trying to think of the last time, when I took someone out for a night of folk music and they said, Thankyou Al, that was a wonderful experience......

I remember the personal reviews my guests handed out:-

Ralph McTell - Christ! that was bloody boring!
Peter Bellamy - What WAS all that about?
Martin Carthy - If he's that good, why does he keep fiddling with his guitar?
Ewan MacCoLL and Peggy Seeger - those two buggers keep on about the working man, they've never done a hands turn their life!
Martin Wyndham Reid - have you noticed, his voice keeps making these 'glooop' noises?
Bert Jansch - he looks really pissed off to be here. I'm not sure he's awake.

My mother (died in 1981) once sat through a lady folksinger's act (wild horses will not get to me divulge the name of that dear lady). I asked Mum if she liked it. She thought for a moment and said - did you see the shape of that woman's tits under her cheesecloth shirt. They're conical in shape, they are - I couldn't take my eyes off them! Not all night!

What I mean is even if Davy had played brilliantly - well its no guarantee that everyone will enjoy themselves, in my experience.

At least you've seen Davy Graham. Cross that one out in the I-Spy book.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Winger
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 01:18 PM

"I will now also mention Alex Campbell, he appeared to do O K but then he wasn't a musician."


?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:05 PM

Breezy,a musician is someone who communicates through their music,both Alex Campbell,and Cyril Tawney managed to do this.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Betsy
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 02:11 PM

Well said Dick !!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:34 AM

Captain Birdseye, "this thread is about Davy Graham." Yes, but as breezy rights observes, the principle of the thread is being incapable on stage, and that can apply to anyone. So with respect, weelittledrummer, it is not about whether the performer matches the taste of an audience member, it is about sobriety and professionalism.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:33 AM

why make statements like Cyril Tawney was in a league of his own.
It implies he was unprofessional,yet he had a career Of over forty years.I reckon I saw Cyril on dozens of occasions ,and in my experience,he performed well.
no one can have such a lengthy career and be unprofessional.
comments like Breezys and his comment[ po captain birdshyte],illustate why people get disillusioned with mudcat,and the unecessary bitching and nastiness,that neednt happen.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Robin Isherwood
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 06:37 AM

My son and I saw Davey Graham last night in Salford. During the last couple of years, we've seen both John Renbourn (who was excellent) and Bert Jansch (who was okay): each of them mentioned their indebtedness to Davey Graham. So when the chance came, we booked to see the Legend.
   No one who plays an instrument themselves could have been untouched by the sadness of the occasion. The human spirit and musical sensitivity can only bear so much. Fortunately, from our seats in the gods, we could walk out unnoticed.
   Like many others, I recognised the need to earn a crust - & like many others', my disappointment was directed towards the promoters. I still think it could have been a brilliant evening if Davey had been accompanied by a skilful and sensitive band. We all go to waste eventually, but there's no need to have it exposed like that. Shame on the promoters.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:30 AM

Well said, Robin. It's a sad sight. And his 'manager' has a lot to answer for.

In your opinion, was he drunk? The reason I ask is that several people on this thread have jumped to the conclusion that drink is the reason for his disappointing performances. I have encountered no evidence to substantiate this but obviously 'eye-witness' accounts may shed light on the matter.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: oggie
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:42 AM

I am of an age to have watched the "Parkinson" one hour special with David Niven during which Niven was having great difficulty speaking. The press (and many viewers)immediately jumped to the conclusion he was drunk etc etc. The truth was he was sufering from Motor Neurone Disease which eventually killed him.

I am not saying this is the case with DG but conclusions based on partial facts and hearsay can be misleading.

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 08:01 AM

The sad thing is, this the most people have written about him for years.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 05:35 PM

Sober now

Cyril was able to hold it while the rest of us slipped under!! One of the truly greats and I was so honoured that he should have played to an enthralled capacity audience when his encore lasted 45 minutes which ended with an intimate gathering   in the bar till 3.00 a.m .

Dear cpn birdshyte,

I would care to differentiate between 'musician ' and 'performer' as not all of the formers can be classified as the latters

And to entertain is yet another aspect to consider.

So Salford went belly up , thats 2 - 1 since Worcester

Now how went High Wycombe? will it be a draw?

Any other gigs up for review

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:41 PM

Breezy,tis an ill wind that blows no good.
and a balmy[not barmy]Breezy that buffers the barnacles,
Breezy, your hot air is enough to sail a balloon, and enables you to reach such heights of intellectual finesse,that continues to astound me.
you make DR Johnson look like a veritable intellectual pygmy,Stout Fellow, Breezy.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:38 AM

I have never seen Davy Graham live, so any comment here must be indirect.

I still rate 'Folk, Blues and Beyond', and 'Folk Roots, New Routes' (both on CD so the 'snap, crackle and pop' of vinyl ain't there) as two of the finest collections ever made, by any artiste ; and that is said by a folkie who is otherwise a hardline 'traddie'. Indeed, I have introduced the grandbrats to these, and one, a talented guitarist, was well impressed.

Some of you may be aware that I am a recovering alcoholic. I am not qualified to say whether anybody else - anybody - mark it - is, or is not, alcoholic. The only person I know to be alcoholic, is I.

It follows from this that if - repeat if - DG IS alcoholic, he is the only person with any right to say so ; or not, as he chooses.

What I do know is that the word 'should' makes no sense to alcoholics or addicts. Indeed, there is an aphorism -

'Don't "should" at me !'.

If it is substance abuse which is causing Davy Graham problems, he has my sympathy. If this is the case, then DG is the only person who is able to help DG, as has been shared previously in this thread.

In which case, those who are, in my opinion, exploiting the man need gelded with a blunt knife.

Addictive illness, regardless of the cause, is something I would not wish on my worst enemy, assuming I had one.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:48 AM

I abhor threads of this nature (no offense to you, Ian) because they tend to bring out the worst in people when what they want is the best from the performer. It would be a good thing, IMO, if letters were sent to both the performer and his management stating that you wish him to go get treatment. If the intent is to slag the man, well, that's been tended to. If it is to do something positive, maybe the letters would be a good step in that direction. Ya wanna help get back that brilliant performer y'all seem to have seen before or you wanna bitch about it? If it's the latter, many have done that and I hope your spleens feel better. However, there is still a man with a problem, and perhaps one he needs help with. There are enough people around to speak bad of him. His community shouldn't be the repository of remarks that would only hurt him more. IMO.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

When you perform in public you set yourself up for reviews - positive or negative. I don't know about you, but when I order something from Amazon.com, for example, I always look at the consumer reviews, good and bad, for the product in question, and they do influence my decision. In this thread we've had some people who saw Davey when he was not giving a good performance, and some who said that while his performance was not as brilliant as it had been years ago, he did an acceptable job. Personally if I were considering spending a good bit of money (17 pounds is a lot in my book) I'd appreciate knowing what I might expect. I don't think Ian's original intention was negative or an attempt to damage the man's reputation - it was a review of a performance he had attended.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM

Nor do I think Ian's original intention was negative.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:41 AM

What Peace said at 10.48. Anyone praying for Davy ?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 12:26 PM

Maryrrf and Peace, I do appreciate your comments. I won't go over what my original intentions were again as I have said so a few times above, but just to say it isn't pleasant to have one's motives questioned on a public forum - though of course I know this is inevitable - and your comments are reassuring. Thank you. The last thing I would want is to be an excuse for others to take cheap shots at Davy, but I honestly haven't seen that anywhere on this thread. Perhaps I interpret the posts in question differently to those taking exception? And I don't want to start a debate about which posts they are: let's just leave that be, please.

One thing the gig and my posting of this thread did do was make me go back and listen to some old recordings and re-appreciate the reasons I bought tickets in the first place. As a guitarist myself I am in his debt for the doors he opened for other guitarists. On reflection, I think (and I hope) that whatever people's experiences of Davy as he performs now, his legacy will remain untarnished: nothing he does now, however disappointing, can change the huge positive impact he has had on acoustic guitarists.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

.....for whatever it matters..

reading all this has convinced me to buy at least 2 of the most respected 'classic' Davey Graham CDs asap...

..but i doubt i'd ever risk a similar amount of hard earned £££$$$

going to see him play live.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Ian, you are a class act.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Hamish
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 02:43 PM

I've watched this thread with a mixture of interest and dread. Bit I stand by my earlier post: "How very, very sad". (Mine was the one about his Brighton gig back in February). I didn't suspect at the time - nor do I since - that there was any drink problem at the time of the performance. And I was sat right at the front, with a few feet of him.

--
Hamish

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Don Robertson
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

I went to High Wycombe last night to see a folk legend and came home very disappointed indeed. It was embarrasing to behold. Bummed notes, timing all over the place and the overwhelming impression he'd been hitting the bottle rather too hard beforehand. As other reviewers have commented, his performance only lasted about half an hour and in that short period I counted 7 people leaving. It may have been more, but I couldn't see behind me.

I had high expectations on arrival - I hadn't found this website and seen the reviews already posted - and couldn't believe what I saw and heard. I have great admiration for Davey, listen to his CDs and appreciate the immense contribution he's made to folk guitar over the years; I can only hope he'll put this episode behind him and go back on tour and play at a level he's properly capable of.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 04:41 PM

Ive just found this thread & its took me an hour to read every post.

I went to the Lowry gig this last Tuesday evening.

I have held DG in very high esteem for many years since i first heard 'Folk Blues, I was elated when i found out he was touring. Fortunatly the evening before the gig i trawled the net for reviews on his tour, so was a bit prepared for what i may encounter. (I think the review was in The Independent) I found at times i felt embaressed for DG on stage, He tried to do too much, too fast, Lapses of concentration, bum notes & erratic timing. The sparkle IS still there but being masked by something. I dont think Pavey is doing him many favours.

After the excellent JOHN SMITH had finished & we went outside for a fag, DG was walking down the stairs into the emerging crowd with Pavey nearly holding him up as he came down.

I cant put DG's problems down to age as ive watched Daevid Allen of GONG (of similar age) jump around like a teenager & play impeccably. The DG problems are only things he can sort himself, Pavey in my view is milking his name.

Im speaking here being a gigging musician for 20 years+ myself and have lost very close friends (and very talented musicians) to drink & drugs.

-TB303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

and Roland Bass lines....

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM

I'm sure the man knows! I am just as certain that he isn't happy about his overly obvious decline.   

Mark Twain said, "There never was a life lived on the planet that wasn't a failure in the eyes of the one who lived it."

Tangentially, I carry a card in my wallet given to me by the National Multiple Sclerosis Society here in the USA. It says, in effect:

TO ALL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS!!
THIS GUY IS NOT DRUNK!
He has MS. So, if he walks weird, or falls down when he tries to stand up or perambulate, do not DEMEAN, waterboard or arrest, him.
He has an actual disease. His really bizarre behavior, as antisocial and repugnant as it is, is not exhibited because of a character fault in his basic overall makeup!!!

I know that, for at least an entire decade before I was diagnosed, I was exhibiting unique symptoms both on stage and off. I had to sit down to play. The steamboats I played music on used to drop me off on an island in the middle of the Mississippi River where I'd wait in those truly lovely surroundings for their other boat, on which I would do another show on that same day. ------- After having more and more trouble with the shore rocks and negotiating the landing stages and actually falling into the river a few times, the two boats had to meet in the middle of the Mississippi and tie up together so I could step fairly easily from one boat to the other.---Also, I lost the ability to feel the strings on my instruments...

All my fans were great to me. I was a lucky guy to have such support. But if there had been threads like this rambling on about my slow decline, I possibly would've gone the Peter Bellamy route less travelled. ('Nuf said.)

Davey Graham did wonderful work earlier. So did Alex Campbell, Charlie Parker, Chet Baker, Mike Bloomfield, Paul Butterfield, Janis Joplin, Billie Holiday, and so many more. For God's sake, be thankful that you heard them when all were at their zenith. The title of one of my CDs says it all for me:
"The Older I Get, The Better I Was"

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:35 PM

Lol.

I swing both ways weelittledrummer. Folk/Blues/Drums/Guitar AND Techno/Acid/Vinyl/Turntables :-)

......and yes, ive seen bad casualties from a 303 bassline too.

-TB303/Fylde Guitars

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:46 PM

Art, Your idea he could have MS is a very plausible one, In fact a very good friend of mine who is quite a well known abstract painter has just been diagnosed with MS at 41 years old. He has nearly lost his sight & appears to be drunk at times even though he is not.

I dont know what to think in DG's case, If he is suffering MS it would have been documented. I tend to think he's hammering the booze & god knows what else.

-TB303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Art Thieme
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 02:25 AM

I didn't mean to infer that Davey might have MS; only that alcoholism is an actual disease too.

But I DO have MS! And to finally know why I had to secretly wear adult diapers for 10 years, 20 years now, while being misdiagnosed all that time (to the tune of 4 spinal surgeries for the same damn symptoms), well, I must tell you, it was positively LIBERATING to finally KNOW what the hell was wrong with me. The symptom of blindness could reverse itself. MS is a strange x^z%&*#@%/"$$ disease---with an accent on the $$ signs to highlight the fear of losing income/gigs if you quit playing. That anxiety is enough to make one drink to excess--and to think about looking for ways out.---I hope sincerely the neuro-blindness does reverse. It often can do that.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,John
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

For anyonewho hasn't seen the tour, there's a clip at youtube:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYBKuAo7aI

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: cptsnapper
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM

I wonder if we, both as artists & audience, create a hurdle for performers by associating genius with complexity so that sometimes people feel that by playing in an apparently simple manner we display a lack of worthwhile talent & thus putting pressure on people to keep pushing at the boundaries at every possible moment. I'm not sure who it was - it might have been Al Cooper - but I remember an instance of someone having been dismissive of Pop Staples' guitar style but who later on said that they hadn't realised how hard it can be to play simply. There are people who have amazing technique but who leave me cold but others who by doing less involve me. But it depends on the player & the material chosen. And of course it's all subjective!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Charley O'Neill
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 06:53 AM

I saw Davey at the Mossley Festival in the summer, then on tour in Leeds and then at the Lowry. I listen to his old albums all the time and would be a fool to suggest that is performance now can in any favourable way be compared to those classic recordings. However, the man seems in my humble opinion to have to some degree steadily improved over these gigs. Has nobody considered that getting out and playing may be providing meaningfull activity for the guy and thus actually may be a positive experience for him ? Maybe I am naive (though this is not generally a quality attributed to me), but I have read Mark Pavey's words on the website and did not get the impression that he was in any way , the villain of the peace. Was he not initially a fan, then a friend of Davey who is simply trying to help his mate rediscover what he did best and consequently live his life in a more fullfilling manner ? Should Pavey not perhaps be applauded, as opposed to derided ? Could his actions be nothing more or less than alturistic ?

Has anyone heard 'Broken Biscuits' , Davey's new album produced by Pavey ? It is no 'Folk Blues & Beyond', but I don't find it too bad at all ! It is a grower, yep , a little clumsy and wonderfully eclectic as ever Davey was. Give these men a chance!!!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:08 AM

Maybe I am naive

You are either naive or Mark Pavey.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:01 AM

I agree with Charley O Neill.
I thought the video clip of Davys playing, while not brilliant ,was of a good standard.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:53 AM

Cap'n - the video was taken on the first gig of his tour. I suggest you read the comments on the same youtube page, plus those above. Still think he has 'steadily improved over these gigs'?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

I haven't read this whole thread. Has anyone mentioned that Davy Graham, a man who has pretty much spent his whole life playing music, may still be gigging because he needs the money to live on?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 11:30 AM

Sminky.I have read those comments.
I always make up my mind on what my own ears and eyes tell me,the playing on that clip was of a good standard.
One of those comments is typically stupid,calling him an alcoholic ,because he drank his pint of beer in four gulps.
BSubject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer - PM
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

I haven't read this whole thread. Has anyone mentioned that Davy Graham, a man who has pretty much spent his whole life playing music, may still be gigging because he needs the money to live on .
Balladeer,makes a good point.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:17 PM

The standard of playing on that clip is NOT of a good standard - and I can well understand people complaining at paying £17 at a high profile venue to witness it. This is not what fans of Davey Graham expect to see. If you expect people to turn up in significant numbers and pay that kind of money, you are duty bound to ensure you give a professional performance.

I've seen excellent guitar players give similar performances, but they were playing in the local folk club for no money, and by the end of the evening it's no surprise they are under-performing after a few pints. I accept Davey may need the cash, but this is taking money under false pretences. It's very sad, but it's sad too that folks are sometimes travelling many miles to see him, only to return home feeling angry and badly let down.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 12:31 PM

Cap'n - it would be a rash man indeed who concluded that all was well with DG on the basis of that clip.

As for him needing the money - if that is indeed the reason he's still playing - I don't begrudge the man anything (I have contributed a three-figure sum myself over the past two years), but I wonder for how much longer people will be prepared to pay to watch him.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:35 PM

Art - yours are among the very few decent posts on here.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,W
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM

We were back at venue you are referring to this evening. The management apologised profusely for the fiasco and made it clear that a refund is available to all. In fact, they specifically encouraged anyone who has not yet requested a refund to do so. Get in touch with them and complain that the gig was c**p and say you want a refund.

W

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,chazz
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:22 PM

Richard can you define what you mean by decent? I'd say there are more than a very few. Theres some junk but a lot of people are just telling it like it happened to them or making a relevant comment. What's wrong with that?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:24 PM

Well, guest Chazz, take humanity 101. Good choice of name. A man is not a commodity.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,chazz
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

Can you just answer the question please

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

I have never heard Davey Graham.

That said, I think we all have things we'd like to forget, things we'd like never to have done, things that have shamed us. If the man you went to see wasn't the man you saw, then maybe this song will help you.

There But For Fortune by Phil Ochs


Show me a prison, show me a jail,                        
Show me a prisoner whose face has gone pale               
And I'll show you a young man with so many reasons why
And there but for fortune, may go you or I

Show me the alley, show me the train,
Show me a hobo who sleeps out in the rain,
And I'll show you a young man with so many reasons why
There but for fortune, may go you or go I -- you and I.

Show me the whiskey stains on the floor,
Show me the dunken man as he stumbles out the door,
And I'll show you a young man with so many reasons why
There but for fortune, may go you or go I -- you and I.

Show me the country where bombs had to fall,
Show me the ruins of buildings once so tall,
And I'll show you a young land with so many reasons why
There but for fortune, go you or go I -- you and I.
You and I,
There but for fortune, go you or go I -- you and I.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 08:53 PM

Good post Peace. Jacqui and I used to sing that.

Chazz, I did. If you didn't realise it the point is made.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,chazz
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:11 PM

No you didn't. You simply mouthed something so obvious that it's become a cliche. You seem to think that no one else has the right to state any viewpoint. Anyway bye. Have fun getting in the last word. Out of here

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:59 PM

Good

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: breezy
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 04:19 AM

So thats it then, sorted

maybe see ya round Dick


Final score 1 - 3


Check out songs by Chris Flegg catters

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 04:52 AM

I've pondered over this one for quite a while now.
I have no idea who Davey Graham is so having him introduced to me as having been drunk on stage, leaves a little less room for sympathy on my part.
By the sounds of it, the man has made some kind of living from his music and now has an alcohol addiction to deal with.
Fair enough. He's been rewarded for doing well and is old enough to take his lumps when he deserves it.
I can only compare him to my favourite folk singer whom most of you would now consider to be the best in the business.
I've bought his records for decades, sang his interpretations of songs since I was a lad and seen him in concert only once.
He's an alcoholic. Still performs and I believe, is fairly sober for most shows.
Now if I got the chance to see him again and he showed up drunk and incapable, I'd be really ticked. I'd probably have difficulty listening to any of his stuff ever again and would probably start a thread about it right here on Mudcat.
Not quite as bad as "---- ---- What a waste" but enough to evoke some kind of response from you and probably in the hopes that one of you would find just the right thing to say that I may enjoy his music once again.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:00 AM

He's human after all is said and done.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,van
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:06 AM

Think of the man - not the price of a ticket.

(I used to see him in Cousins for 50p.)

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:25 AM

Davy Graham should be honoured for what he has introduced us to:Open tunings on the guitar,
His input, has single handedly changed guitar accompaniment in the folk revival.DickMiles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:29 AM

I can overlook the drinking but open tunings....?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:33 AM

LOL

The link is to a YOUTUBE thing of Davey.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFB6xj1xHnM

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:43 AM

beautiful video...that we should all waste our lives in such a fashion.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:52 AM

Is that Collins/Graham collaboration, "Folk Roots New Routes" available anywhere?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM

Exploring that link came across this version of Anji.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PwIy-NvhCU

Does anyone know the work of these Japanese guys? I'd certainly like to hear more?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 07:03 AM

And that Yamaha guitar he's playing - I love it! Want one!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 11:32 AM

That CD is readily available on AMazon.. I just ordered one.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

I saw DG in Plymouth in 1964, a large affable chap, not much of a singer - sung like that bloke in Wagon Train - alright on the guitar though. I reckon it's all to do with that tune on his, Angie. Why on earth was it so influential? Probably because it was put out on a sort of private record label, and showed us all the way forward.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM

People talking about how bad he was at a concert isn't any less career-killing than pity.

I will say that everybody's assuming it's alcohol making him a bit clumsy on the frets. It may be, but it may be something else. Even if he's drinking before gigs, it may be still be something else.

It's funny. I watch/listen to the Youtubosity of the current tour, and I notice the missed notes, hesitancy and the lapses in timing. If I paid to see THE Davy Graham and he was drunk, I'd be mad. If I knew he had MS or some other disease he couldn't do anything about, I could choose to see him and I think I'd be able to overlook the mistakes because I can hear what he's trying to play.

The anger from people who feel let down is because they think he's intentionally doing this to himself and his audience. They think they've been fooled. At the very least, it sounds like his people have adopted a 'he has problems, but the punters won't notice' attitude. The punters have noticed, and the punters are obviously not happy.

I don't doubt the new album is brilliant.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:25 PM

Why has Davy been so influential? (asks Steve); well, of course, we have to talk about this in an historical context. When Davy emerged on the UK folk scene there was distinct no English/Celtic guitar style; everything was American! Back then, even Martin Carthy played in an obvious American way. Davy changed all that! Davy was there first. He show others the way. Anji is his most famous piece but it in way a "on off", and, indeed, is very American in concept. Davy real legacy is his exploration of various folk roots; first, arab/middle-eastern which helped him create a way to approach English/celtic music. His influence on fellow musicians - not only guitarists - was immense. He is indeed one of the greats.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:33 PM

Here! here!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

I may well be wrong, I am no expert and I have no inside information, but I feel that if you look at even the limited amount of interview material I have seen, there are the marks of some kind of cognitive dissonance. It may be the result of bad acid, or a different drug, or it may be some kind of sociopathy, but the reactions to stimulus look odd. This may not be recent. Even old materials speak of his social difference.

I don't think that the root of this is simply motor. I don't think it is simply a current chemical impairment. I am put in mind of some of the young actors my late wife used to work with - the ones who were card carrying schizophrenics. You could almost see the dialogue between their different selves, which interrupted their conversation with you. But I don't really have any evidence.

Remember Peter Green was never the same after one bad trip.

I am however less charitable about the objectors. This man is not thier possession. Whatever problem he may have, he is worth, his irreducible worth as a human being is more, greater, on a different plane to the £17.50 per ticket. All they lose is the price of an evening's drinks. Where do they get off damning a soul, and sneering, for that?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 04:14 PM

Angie gave young British pickers something to aspire to. I watched them practice it, ace it, play it for each other. On this side of the Atlantic, the lads were mastering Wildwood Flower, Freight Train, and San Francisco Bay Blues. Davy Graham was an innovator, a role model, a strong and unusual finger-sylist in a sea of plectrums - or so it seemed to me, a young visitor from Canada. And in those heady revival days, people who had been masters af the art many years earlier were tracked down in their waiter jobs and their cabbie jobs and their pullman-porter jobs, and helped back on to the stage, where they were revered for what they had been and adored for the echoes of that, however faint. Imho, Davy Graham is a legendary figure and should be respected for what he was, and treated kindly now even if he is only able to produce echoes of what he once did. Of course, the internet has changed how we look at things, given us the power of the blog, and that's generally a very good thing, but I do sometimes miss the days when gossip was usually only whispered in dark corners of secret back rooms. I think maybe the spread of malice was more limited then.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 04:15 PM

"I think maybe the spread of malice was more limited then."

Well, it was slower, anyway.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM

Dick Miles,say what you like about DG but he certainly was not the first one to use open tunings on the guitar. He may have been the one to introduce YOU to open tunings but they have been around a while.

Now I suggest you all give the guy a rest.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,punkfokrocker
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:59 AM

we all got to accept when its our time to retire eventually..

legends and neverbeens alike..


we all gotta go gracefully..



.. or not..

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 05:49 AM

I couldn't read beyond the first ten posts or so, it was so sad to see the blaming going on. Yeah yeah yeah - it's a persons choice to drink or drug up to the point where they become physically dependent upon a substance - then it's a matter of life and death for them. If they abstain - they may die. Alcohol is the worst to come down from - more dangerous even than heroin according to the drug treatment nurses I am friends with.

Look folks - Alcoholism is a progressive disease and often fatal. If anyone who goes to these shows and sees these displays truly cares, why not make an effort to get the man into treatment? I know, I know - it's never that sinmple but conisder this:

My father has been sober for 30 years and he's been known to walk up to strangers who he's observed in the state described by the OP and quietly convince them to accompany him right then and there to an AA meeting or a hospital. I realize its not that simple, but sometimes a total stranger can have more influence over someone than family, friends or business colleagues. He even walked up to a guy he had arrested once who had only been out of prsion a few weeks and who was already back to dribnking himself into oblivion. Much to my mother's horror, he brought the man home to clean him up a bit and then proceded to accompany him to meeting after meeting for weeks.

The wonderful musisican John Fahey suffered from progressive alcoholism and he's not around now as a result. There are dozens of others we could name. All people seemed to be concerned with is how the musicians alcoholism impacts their enjoyment of a show or how it "ruins" their fond memories. In all the threads such as these where we see complaining about drunken performers there seem to be two postions with the first being it's an offense against the consumer and all the artist's fault with the other being, "Oh well, these things do happen and there's naught to be done about it."

I don't know Davey Graham's situation at all so this is more of a general comment about alcoholic musicians. If you genuinely love the man or woman's music and don't want to be reading their Obit, it's OK for you to go up to them and give it a try. Ask them if they need help. Ask if they want to go on that way. if they say "Yes I need help", and they just might say that, ya never know -- take them to a meeting and sit with them until someone at the AA meeting takes responsibility for them.

Maybe that's overly optimistic of me but I've seen it work. I myself have walked up to two performers who were clearly gin-soaked for a long time and asked if they'd like me to take them to a treatment facility or an AA meeting. One said yes and has been sober for 10 years now.

AA doesn't cure people and it doesn't work magic but sometimes all it does take is a willingness to invest a few hours of your time in facilitating somebody's first steps into a progam.

That said - I'm sure this situation is special - they all are.

I'm sure this man has refused treatment before - they all do.

I'm sure there are hundreds of reasons why an audience member shouldn't do this. Even so, it wouldn't stop me - it hasn't in the past. Ask my long suffering husband who has to deal with the fall-out of such impulse moves on my part.   

As wikipedians say - Be Bold! You might just save a beloved performers life.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:39 AM

Speaking as someone with a food addiction, I can honestly say that in my belief it's the person with the addiction who has to take responsibility for their actions. Feeling sorry for someone is all very well, but noone else (however well-meaning their intentions) can sort an alcoholic's life out for them. (That's not to say that having a strong support network won't help btw). It's all too easy these days to blame external influences for your emotional problems ("oh, my boss was horrible to me today, I had to eat a whole packet of biscuits when I got home" etc). I don't believe the outside world is any more cruel today than it ever has been. Or that human nature has changed a whole lot.
I agree that if you're not fit to perform (interact with an audience) then you probably shouldn't be on stage. Anyone who has paid to see a performer has the right to expect a PERFORMANCE by definition.
I have no idea who Davy Graham is and I've never heard his music or seen him live, so I promise I'm not having a dig at him lol...

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 07:45 AM

Food addiction is a problem. You can give up alcohol - absolutely if you so wish and can achieve it - you can give up tobacco (subject as aforesaid) - but you can't do that with food. You always have to have some.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mark Pavey
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

Someone; or a group of people from Worcester is trying to cause trouble here. We did 13 dates in total, some were better shows than others admittedly, but all shows were of a standard I felt comfortable with.

For £17.50 over 13 evenings across the country we offered John Smith (who supported John Martyn on his last tour), my best efforts and 45 minutes of Davy Graham playing whatever he felt like on that night. That was it; a reasonable offering. People came.

Having travelled with Davy all that day before Worcester I know for 100% that the only thing Davy had to drink that day was one glass of Chianti with a large meal in Pizza Express an hour and a half before his appearance. The person who claimed to smell alcohol is talking a load of rubbish. During Davy's second piece, which I believe was Capricho Arabe, 5 audience members stood up from the front row and rudely left the building. This upset Davy considerably, and for some reason he mis-timed the length of his set. Having timed his performance as I always do, he left the stage after playing for 38 minutes. Given that this evening was poorly attended and we were heading north for the main part of the tour, I didn't give Davy a hard time about it.

Both Davy and I am tired of middle aged, miserable, middle classed, ravaged types attending our concerts expecting the worse and who are incapable of enjoying what is still relevant, proficient and and moving work. Our audiences at present are split between the cheerful majority and the appalled minority. I would very much like it if those people who have been causing trouble find some other artist to watch. Having been shackled to an indifferent folk label/tag for so long, Davy is finally breaking free of that hangover. It is natural that in order to gain some new fans, he is losing some old ones.

It is not 1966, Davy is not 28, he has made great efforts over the past three years, from being in pretty poor shape into pretty good shape. I know because I made the effort three years ago to help him get something back that he had lost. We are both works in progress, both of us being far from perfect specimens.

6,500 miles later, I am pretty tired and pretty pleased about what we did, I drove all that way in a 1.4 Seat Leon and managed a decent set most nights. We met some great people on the road, but some people just don't get it. Not my problem. Not Davy's problem.

BTW we don't have a deal with Fledgling so no royalties are paid.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

One of the two friends who saw DG with me at Worcester has just phoned me and told me to see Mark Pavey's contribution above. It was described to me as "shocking". It have just read it and I agree.

"Someone; or a group of people from Worcester is trying to cause trouble here." No one is trying to cause trouble. Unless you count telling the truth as trouble-making. Truth is something you obviously have difficulty with, judging from the rest of your post. Your professional and financial involvement is, I think, making you see what you want to see. I wish I could have seen what I wanted to see that night.

"Davy's second piece, which I believe was Capricho Arabe, 5 audience members stood up from the front row and rudely left the building." That is a plain, straightforward lie. I know this because I sat on the front row. No one on the front row left their seats ahead of us. We left after about 20 minutes, as my first post said. And there were three of us, not five. And we did not leave the building. You should know this, Mark, as *after* the gig (we went to the bar for about 10 minutes) you gave us free CDs in the foyer, "to ease your pain", as you put it.

"Both Davy and I am tired of middle aged, miserable, middle classed, ravaged types attending our concerts" - I don't even know what that means, except the implication that you are hearing a lot of complaints but are dismissing the people rather than hearing what they are saying - "expecting the worse" - the three of us went expecting a great evening - "and who are incapable of enjoying what is still relevant, proficient and and moving work" uh? Have you actually read what people are saying? Are you listening? Have you not noticed, as I have but only since that evening, how many people are leaving disappointed and saying so all over the internet? Do you not remember the crowd of 10-12 people complaining to the MC? Did you not hear the conversation with the ushers, who were as shocked as the audience at what they saw and heard? Have you not considered why the venue are inviting people to have refunds?

I truly hope Davy Graham does make a full recovery from whatever is ailing him. I hope that at some point soon I will be hearing that he is in full control and is once again a performer worth seeing. That will only happen if he is surrounded with honesty and integrity.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM

a) To those who have stepped in without reading the entire thread, go back and read it. It's not all negative. Not by any means.
b) Mark: Thank you for offering your point of view. I have no idea who you are but am inclined to take you at your word.
c)"he left the stage after playing for 38 minutes. Given that this evening was poorly attended and we were heading north for the main part of the tour, I didn't give Davy a hard time about it." You should have. I'd have kicked his arse.
d)"6,500 miles later, I am pretty tired and pretty pleased about what we did," ...6,500 miles? Who in the name of heaven planned that tour? Couldn't have been in the U.K. You'd have to use all the miles we've got and then switch over to kilometers.
e) The very best of luck with your career. I mean that!
Sincerely
Jim

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM

Mark Pavey ,has a right to reply,and I think he has made some good points,particuarly that this is not 1966 and Davy Graham is not 28,but nearly 70. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

With you there Dick

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 12:53 PM

200? Sheesh, you don't look a day over 123.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,An Avid Fan of Music
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM

I am confused by the exact nature of this particular 'forum' and what it's creator intended to achieve. Does it's creator mean Davy Graham; what a waste of money, or what a waste of talent? If it is the latter then I am sure that I am one among many who stands very bewildered. I am not going to list Davy's achievements, as I am sure you will have found them in vast quantity across this forum, but I will go as far to say that those of you who have given contributions with such high levels of cynicism should be ashamed and disgusted with their selves.
People have offered their own analyses of Davy and in some cases thoroughly dissected the complexion of addictions, however I don't believe doing either will help anybody truly understand him. If anything, this debate has made me realise that people thrive on putting people other people down by asserting themselves above others. I am sure nobody on this forum will ever achieve in a lifetime as much as Davy did in even a 10-year period. If people want to continue picking apart Davy just because it massages their ego then go ahead, but I applaud those who continue to celebrate Davy's work and his contribution to music.
By no measure is he a waste.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:41 PM

Dick: "Mark Pavey ,has a right to reply and I think he has made some good points, particularly that this is not 1966 and Davy Graham is not 28 but nearly 70. Dick Miles"
Hope you didn't think I disagree with that. Thought I'd been fairly clear.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 03:58 PM

Avid fan

I suspect what the original poster wanted to do was warn anybody else off from wasting £17.50. There are still some households where such a sum is damned hard come by.

It was a fair and honourable intention. I have felt within the last few weeks the desire to warn off punters from another folk great's current tour for quite dufferent reasons. However I went on his website to see effusive congratulations on this latest debacle, from all the usual gang of crawl arses.

Davy must learn from this to get his retaliation in first!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

Hi it si a bloody shame when anybody falls victim to Drugs of any kind.
I have never seen the DG play live and only heard a couple of his albums.
I am not old enough to have heard him in his prime.
He is getting on a bit now and as with many old stagers he maybe should be taking it easy and enjoying the fruits of his past contributions,
If he is enjoyig himself that is great.
If he is desperate for the cash that is sad.
IS it the amount that is asked to go see him that is causing most distress?
I understand there were a couple of support acts and the chance to a see an aging and past his best legend on offer for under twenty quid.
I reckon if he comes to a handy venue around here I would spalsh out on a ticket and just go along with the experience.
As I did last yeat with Bert jansch.
If you were disapointed by this incarnation of one of your hero's I understand, but the major part of the mans legend to those of us who dont know him personaly is HE inovated,he travelled and brought a new sound to the guitar. Then he shot up and dropped out of sight.
Now he is 70 what did you expect.
If you are being honest I think what you got was what you paid for.
Its just that your expectations were somewhat higher than reality could possibly be.
LEts hope he gets straight or enjoys the rest of his life.
Heres a tip
DOnt go see him again.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 04 Nov 07 - 11:02 PM

Though I disagree with much of what has been said here, I am thrilled to be able to take part in a conversation that draws in folk performers and fans on both sides of the Atlantic. Every once in a while, I still marvel at how the internet has revolutionized the dissemination of ideas. Maybe more than the printing press even. Thank you, Mudcat!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 03:45 AM

Having read through this thread in it's entirety, I am appalled at the lack of sensitivity and common humanity contained in the comments from a minority of posters. Criticism is valid but to pull a man to pieces and engage in wild conjecture on a public forum is inexcusable. Davey Graham should be applauded for going out on the road at seventy and who the hell is anyone to deny him the right to have what could be a final fling? He's paid his dues!
And Davey, if you're reading this, thank you for what you've given us and as for the begrudgers, fuck 'em!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 04:11 AM

I agree as I have said leave the guy alone

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:02 AM

I've read all this thread, and others on a similar theme elsewhere, and also seen Davy Graham on his previous tour. Nobody who knows anything about folk music would begrudge him money, whether he's desperate for it or just making a lving is neither here nor there. Speculation about his condition and what caused it is also irrelevant and unhelpful.

That said, going to a gig is a commercial transaction. Your pays your money and you gets your show. Whether there were two support acts or none is irrelevant too, you're paying for Davy Graham. Now, the show I saw was dreadful, embarrassing and painful to be at, and it seems clear that quite a few others have been too. That is a rip-off, pure and simple. If Davy Graham can't perform on any given night then the gig should be cancelled and people refunded.

Talk about it not being 1966, or getting new fans and losing old ones is just a smokescreen. Nobody expects the yound Davy or nothing to have changed, but Mark Pavey, who is the mastermind behind all this, ought to take a long hard look at himself. He's taking money from people for sub-standard shows and putting Davy Graham on stage when he clearly shouldn't be there. That, in my book, is shameless exploitation of both Davy and his audience.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:42 AM

I thought anonymous postings were not allowed on mudcat.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM

I'm "getting on a bit" and an "old stager" too - and, just like Davey, been self employed for a number of years. If I or anyone else on Mudcat employed a roofer, plumber or electrician we'd expect a decent job done in our home. If the roofer or plumber left us with rain running through our ceiling, or the sparky left us with a live to neutral we'd be pretty ticked off and quick to ask for our money back.

It's a contract - you pay your money and you expect the artisan to deliver the other half - or you are entitled to bitch...........

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 07:13 AM

so did I Captain Birdseye

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:10 AM

Performing on a stage is not really comparable to fixing a hole in someone's roof.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM

Davey Graham is a self-employed musician, charging for his services and earning good money for his privilege. He has customers, and a duty to those customers in that he offers them his services in return for their cash. If he fails to deliver the goods as "fit for the purpose" then he fails to fulfill his contract. Customers have a right to complain - and if someone goes on their roof to fix a leak and he is ill prepared, no surprises then that the rain continues to come through. If you can't see the analogy, you obviously won't take the point anyway.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM

A barrack-room lawyer is a dangerous thing.

I don't imagine any of these carping critics could walk a mile in Davy Graham's shoes, much less have done.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

Lowden, of course you're right from a certain perspective. It's just that there are so many things you're leaving out when you make the case so narrowly. I don't think anyone pays a plumber based on his "oeuvre".

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:10 AM

The case I make isn't a narrow one; you can widen it to any example where cash changes hands. This is not simply a case of an artist having a bad day. Davey's fans are entitled to expect value for money, just as you would expect value for money from any number of goods or service providers. You would not accept a poor job from someone on the basis of him being 70 years old, or was brilliant at his job when he was 28. You would not accept a poor job from someone on the basis that he happened to be drunk when he did a job for you, or hadn't prepared the groundwork necessary to carry out the job effectively. You would complain, and rightly so, and may take steps to get your money refunded.

There's evidence that these performances are well below an acceptable standard on an on-going basis - so good money will continue to be paid by unsuspecting fans until the wheels fall off the bandwagon. He should retire, or make serious effort to get his act together.

I have bought, and continue to buy his music - and will do as long as the product is up to standard; after that, I'll spend my CD budget cash elsewhere.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:18 AM

"You would not accept a poor job from someone on the basis of him being 70 years old, or was brilliant at his job when he was 28."
Indeed I would if he was an artist I loved who was playing for me, but not if he was fixing my roof. :-)

Subject: Tried loading Cool Edit Pro into Vista ? Help!
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 10:31 AM

I take your point; it's a matter of personal choice. I love Bob Dylan, buy his CD's but choose not to see his live performances anymore. No matter how much you loved an artist, how bad would the performance have to be before you felt you had been let down? Surely you'd expect some quality in return for your money?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,John Robinson
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:28 AM

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread but ....

"earning good money for his privilege"

That is one MIGHTY big assumption.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM

This thread is going away overboard.
I think, Ian started, quite innocently, by relating, what he considers to be, a bad experience to us.
I can't know what his intentions were but the "What a waste" title is over the top and we're stuck with it. An unfortunate choice of words and one I'm sure, he regrets. It is certainly out of character for Ian.
We've gone from Alcohol to M.S. and finally "Washed Out", all on the basis of one complaint.
I'd say we're well into character assassination by now.
Let's hope it does not have an adverse effect on future attendances.
To those who are his fans, I'd say "Thank you for your contributions".
To the rest... Your points are well made but should probably be debated in a thread which doesn't bear the name of any artist.
Imagine dropping in on Mudcat and seeing what people have written about YOU!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:03 PM

Exactly the point I made very many posts ago Jim Lad, and was pulled up for it. My feelings exactly.

RS

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

Hope I never fu#k up a chord on stage.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Tim Leaning
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

I wish I had been and done enough to be worth a thread on here.
Even if it were just to attack me for no longer being what the audience expected to see at the age of 70.
Maybe if there is a still a mudcat and they still do obits?
Hmmmmmm
I have a cunning plan.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:41 PM

In my opinion this thread should be closed.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

I second the motion Dick

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:10 PM

No one here hates Davy Graham or wants to pull him down. I've seen no joy expressed about his condition or his performances.

But for the folks who are unhappy with this thread - what do you suggest? Ignore the situation? Hope it goes away? If we don't talk about it - it never happened?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

I'd suggest folks who are so concerned speak with Mr Graham about it either in person or via internet.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Internet as in e-mail.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 01:39 PM

There is no situation.- Just conjecture.
One party was unhappy. - Fair Enough.
Mark Davey responded. - It's between them.

The motion has been seconded. All in favour say "Aye".

Aye!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:02 PM

You paid to see Davey Graham play, and you got to see Davey Graham play. No one promised anything else.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM

Lowden, I agree with you entirely.

"No matter how much you loved an artist, how bad would the performance have to be before you felt you had been let down?"

This state of balance you refer to is intensely personal and individual. Each of us draws the line in a slightly different place, hence the wide divergence of views axpressed here.

This thread will peter out all on its own. They usually stop dead right after I've made what I thought was a particularly dazzling and thought-provoking contribution. But seriously, I do think if the debate is to continue, it should have a different name.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

"You paid to see Davey Graham play, and you got to see Davey Graham play. No one promised anything else"

I'll go along with that, Although it cost me the price of 2 tickets & a tenner petrol I was glad i went to see him. Just wish i'd spoke to him as he passed me on the stairs.

One of the moments where you say "shall i, Should i.....?"

I never did & wish i had now cos i doubt i'll ever see him again.

As an artist myself ive always seen criticism as constructive, Whether davey reads this is another matter BUT, Mark pavey has an no doubt will let him know.

I must say though, I thought John Smith was excellent. The Winter tune (where he taps on the guitar for rhythm) was inspirational.

Good lad.

-TB303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ian cookieless
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM

I think there is one problem with the written and the spoken word, but especially the written: what a person says may be misinterpreted by others. This is the case, especially with writing, I think, as there is no tone of voice and no body language as a context in which to judge the meaning. And, in conversation, it is easy, in the flow of conversation, to discount something someone said as badly expressed or mis-spoken, if it doesn't match the rest of the flow of meanings. In writing, and especially on Mudcat, I find, people can easily pick you up on a few words, interpreted other than they were meant.

By my title, "Davey Graham: what a waste", I intended to convey the idea that I went to see a unique and profoundly talented and influential man; but what I saw was a man incapable of real performance who made the audience feel sad, embarrassed and uncomfortable. That, I think, is a waste. It is no comment at all on his hugely successful past career or his undoubted legacy: it is simply meant to convey the sadness and anger I felt that night that someone - either he or his manager - saw fit to put him, in that state, on a stage for all to see. No one can enjoy that. For the sake of the man himself (as I have said above), no one wants to see that.

This is going to be my last post on this thread as I think it has more than served its purpose. I never imagined it would get this reaction or this many posts. People will have to make their own minds up where they stand. They should do so having actually seen him play as he now plays. There are enough testaments on this thread to give an indication of what that might be like. I find it hard to understand why some accuse others of paying money to go to a gig to NOT enjoy themselves. To me, that is just a bizarre accusation. And I notice that those who defend this tragic situation of Davy being on a stage and unable to play well have singularly failed to address this very fact.

Maybe, having spent a lot of time trying to get Davy to perform again, Mark Pavey is blinded by his love for the man and his music (if that is his motive). But that is no reason to ignore the facts and then tell lies on this thread. Unable to face reality, he is making up his own.

It was me who said I thought Davy was drunk. Let me explain. I saw him behaving as if he was drunk (as described in my original post) and began to smell alcohol. Now it is perfectly possible, I suppose, that I smelt alcohol from another source close to me and, because DG was behaving in a drunken fashion, associated the two. My two friends, sat next to me at the gig, also thought he was drunk, as did the ushers and other audience members I spoke to. If he was not (and maybe only he knows that), then it raises a fundamental question: if someone is on stage and, for whatever reason, gives the impression of being too inebriated to play, should he be on that stage?

Wesley S, I thank you for your measured and wise post: "No one here hates Davy Graham or wants to pull him down. I've seen no joy expressed about his condition or his performances. But for the folks who are unhappy with this thread - what do you suggest? Ignore the situation? Hope it goes away? If we don't talk about it - it never happened?"

Thank you, good night, and peace to all - especially to Davy Graham.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

"You paid to see Davey Graham play, and you got to see Davey Graham play. No one promised anything else."

...in other words, if he'd come on stage and played the bagpipes for 30 minutes before leaving, you'd have no cause for complaint folks.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 03:16 PM

"...in other words, if he'd come on stage and played the bagpipes for 30 minutes before leaving, you'd have no cause for complaint folks."

LOL.

Im just glad i was in the same room as him, Like ive said before his playing wasnt what i was expecting, But, Im just glad i saw him. Bit like when i saw James Brown twice then he died. I can say ive seen James Brown.

-TB303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM

I like the bagpipes. And have noticed a similarity between bagpipes and open tuned guitar that we don't need to get into here--

At any rate, I am lost on your point Lowden--the custom of trade is simply that you are only entitled to a refund if the performer is does not appear. You are entitled to your opinions, of course, but they aren't worth anything at the box office. Back in Philly, someone who carries on as you have is escorted from the premises, often with a few "Tony Soprano" flourishes.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 05 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

Yep - we all know how things are done in the states!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 12:00 AM

I don't really think you do--for example, it is regarded as being rude indeed to carry on about what a waste we think some venerable and important individual is because we didn't get 17 pounds worth of entertainment on a given evening--oh, wait, you weren't even there that night, were you, Lowden?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 03:59 AM

But those days are past, and the time come at last
For the weakness of age to make way for the young.

Matt Armour

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: balladeer
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 04:40 AM

Do not go gentle into that good night,
       Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
       Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

       Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
       Because their words had forked no lightning they
       Do not go gentle into that good night.

       Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
       Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
       Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

       Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
       And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
       Do not go gentle into that good night.

       Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
       Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay,
       Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

       And you, my father, there on the sad height,
       Curse, bless me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
       Do not go gentle into that good night.
       Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: oggie
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:08 AM

Thank you Balladeer. Enough said I feel.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 05:54 AM

In a way I suppose its regrettable any of this is being said.

I think, the worry that most of us have on hearing this is that DG has just been misunderstood. He was never 'like his records', as they say. At least not like those first two or three records that everybody knows.

Pleasing the public has never really been part of the agenda. When England was folk blues mad, Davy could have cleaned up financially - but it didn't interest him. Moreover he couldn't be bothered to articulate to his audience why he was so enamoured of say Lennie Tristano's work - or Morroccan music.

On reflection, I think I agree with the guy who said - you got Davy Graham, you've got nothing to complain about. Sometimes folk music isn't all about being a great communicator.

My first paid gig was support act to Nic Jones, many years ago. I remember the other floorsingers were bitching wildly and bitterly to me and the organiser because Nic hadn't stayed in the room and watched their efforts - he'd sat in the bar downstairs and just come up when he had to sing.

Some people just are, they can't be themselves and conform to our expectations.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:04 AM

I don't remeber his records or tapes because i was only a wee boy durning the 1960's I was born in 1965. So I can't Judge the man because I have never heard him live or on Record or Tape

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 06:44 AM

Do yourself a favour Arran, go out and buy a copy of "Folk Blues and Beyond"

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,deebemc
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 10:52 AM

I was privileged to see Davey and Holly Glynn in 1972. His playing was patchy but Holly kept the show rolling, When he did play, as he did in places at his Oxford gig in 2005(especially his duet with Bert Jansch), it was simply great.
I like to think of half a loaf better than none, glass half full etc. Nobody wants to do him down but he has been, at best an inconsistent performer over past 40years. As for his recording output, I really would love to have had my CD which I paid up front for but I console myself with helping it reach fruition!!!
Long life , Davey!!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Peace
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

I don't know if y'all are aware, but Pete Seeger is beginning to show signs of age, and it's reflected in his singing/playing somewhat. Whether the nomination for the Nobel comes through or not, I would still give him a standing ovation after any set he did because he deserves my respect for the work of his lifetime. He made much of what musicians do today possible because he helped lead the way in music in a time that music needed leading. His "We Shall Overcome" album recorded live at Carnegie Hall is as close to a great album as great albums get. And what's Pete got to do with Davey? Nothing I guess. Nothing at all. No, nothing . . . .

Some people posting here have made it clear that they remain sitting when their elders enter the room. That says it all to me.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,The Ballad of the Bold Researcher
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:44 AM

"But for the folks who are unhappy with this thread - what do you suggest? Ignore the situation? Hope it goes away? If we don't talk about it - it never happened?"


What I suggest is, stop flogging it to death, the same point has be made over and over ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

GUEST,deebemc - I was at that Oxford gig too - it was pretty good (especially with it being entirely acoustic). It's amazing to think that he and Bert had never shared the stage until they appeared together at Edinburgh in 2005 (I was at that one too!).

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 12:17 PM

I take it it must be a record that you can't get anymore

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Rain Dog
Date: 06 Nov 07 - 12:31 PM

Folk Blues and Beyond is available on CD

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:57 AM

As is 'Folk Roots, New Routes'.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM

Maybe this thread has gone on too long already. Correspondents with something relevant to say have probably said it by now, and those merely seeking a platform on which to display their wit or wisdom have had enough opportunities. Nevertheless, since we still seem to be a long way from consensus, here are a few more thoughts.

In almost every musical category – classical, jazz, rock, folk, blues, country, world, you name it – there is a special niche for "Living Legends".   A great many people are willing pay good money to hear these performers, despite knowing full well that they are no longer able to deliver performances as good as those which established their reputations.   

Some folks dismiss this as the triumph of nostalgia over good taste. Others applaud it as an act of homage to performers whose stature is undiminished despite their declining abilities. But like it or not, it remains a fact of life in the music business. Consequently, concert-goers who demand perfect performances every time should avoid spending their hard-earned cash on going to hear Living Legends – or at the least, they should do some research on the Legend's current form before buying a ticket.   

DG is undoubtedly a Living Legend – don't take my word for it, just ask Martin Carthy, John Renbourn, Stefan Grossman, or many other professionals who earn a living playing the acoustic steel-strung guitar.   When I saw him at Gateshead last week his playing was certainly not flawless, but I still found it worth hearing. I hope that his recovery continues, and would certainly pay to hear him again in future.   

Wassail!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:29 AM

As a guitarist, hearing and seeing Graham play would be more than mere entertainment. He solved problems that every guitarist who approaches folk music must confront, and those solutions are there each time he plays, for those that have the ears to hear and the eyes to see.

So every time Davey Graham plays, people learn from him--and they'll use it tomorrow, next year, and probably, even in a hundred years. He's really that important as a musician. So it's too bad you walked out, Ian, because you probably missed something important.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM

I live in Scotland, so there is very few shops that sell his stuff here.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM

Arran :

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Folk-Blues-Beyond-Davy-Graham/dp/B0009J4SLO/ref=sr_1_1/026-1019152-3851613?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1194455106&sr=1-1

-TB303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ben
Date: 07 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM

Has anyone received their prepaid 'Broken Biscuits' yet? Or had any word since pressing confirm on the Paypal screen?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 07:57 AM

No I have not received my prepaid copy of 'Broken Biscuits' yet? Or had any word since pressing confirm on the Paypal screen

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mark Pavey
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:01 AM

All the btoken biscuits are being posted tomorrow...

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Mars
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 08:04 AM

Thanks Mark

All my best to Davy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Ben
Date: 08 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

I can't wait to hear it. I went to see Davey in Howarth about a year ago. He wasn't as good I expected but I was still very excited by the whole experience. I spoke to him and he was polite and gracious. He hadn't had a drink. He did, later, drink a pint quite rapidly (so what) in a mid-set break, but that was all I saw him drink. I pre-ordered the then unnamed Broken Biscuits that night when I got home.

I did feel let down by Mark's absolute lack of contact (ie not even a confirmation), and the fact that the forum was removed. I felt he was being rather slippery, and missed out on seeing Davey in Leeds as I was wondering if I had been ripped off. Many others were angry with Mark's conduct. I hope to receive it very soon. There is now a track available to listen to on the official page by the way.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Den
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 07:44 PM

I have been a fan of Davy (now Davey) Graham since the 1960's and bought many of his albums as they were released.

He has always included Jazz material eg Cry Me a River way back in the late 1950's Ken Russel Monitor film. This was impressive and an amateur, but heartfelt tribute to the Barney Kessell original with Julie London vocal. But hell, we didn't have much UK competition against these real jazz players and Davy was very brave to attempt it.

I had never seen him perform live until the recent Salford Lowry concert and I was really looking forward to it. Unfortunately, I felt it was a complete and utter farce and the man should now be left alone to seek oblivion in "night time man drinking in the bars" and spare us all the effort, ticket price and inconvenience of playing at being an appreciative audience.

Better a museum piece than a travelling insult to his past.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Den - a well chosen name for yourself. Your inconvenience - the pathos of a master creator in (if he is in) decline - in the grand scheme of the universe, which is the more important? Out of your own mouth you confirm you are the lowest of the low.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 07:38 PM

For what it's worth, i think it's about time to finish this thread.

It doesn't seem to be serving any useful purpose anymore.

Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 08:05 PM

yes, we could tie a knot in it.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 01:39 AM

It might be better to start a Broken Biscuits CD thread.


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Grr
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM

Well, whoever heard of musicians over-indulging? How shocking.
Maybe he's got problems you lot are unaware of - maybe he needs the support of his fans - he's earned it by now, surely? The man's given his life to music; give him the respect he deserves & leave the poor sod alone.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Zeke
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM

"Not performing is great in theory, if you are financially secure, have a pension etc. If not, how do you keep living?"

I should hope my doctor (or even my car mechanic or plumber) wouldn't try to justify an inadequate job with this line.
I have driven two and a half hours and paid well to see a musician whose name you would all know and whose records I love put on an obviously drunken, terrible show. He forgot words and played sloppily, spending more time telling boring, garbled stories than singing and calling for a glass of tequila every three songs.

I felt as though he had stolen my money and my time. The owner of the venu apoligized to us on our way out, but she did not offer to refund our money.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:03 PM

NOT PERFORMING from disability was my only option.

I had to figure out a way to get by without the music. Did that by being so poor that I qualified for "help" with health-care for my wife who cannot get Medicare because she was never able to work enough to qualify for that "perk" ! Because my income is too high, I must "spend down" every month (and stay poor) before she can get needed treatments monthly. Still the bureaucracy is unbelievable---the hoops to jump through truly disconcerting.

Mudcat has been a lifeline of some sort to the music, even though I know some here see my wearing my cardio-pump on my sleeve too often to be a negative trait. As a result, I'm here less. That has come to feel good after all is said and done.

Art

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Effsee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM

Guest Zeke 12:13 PM, are you talking about Davey Graham, or some other artiste?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Zeke
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM

I was talking about another artist, however, I feel it was on topic.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:21 PM

Sad story.

It is easy to say it's self inflicted, but it is seldom that simple. It's easy to blame temptation, but the Rolling Stones, Motörhead and many many others have made more money, and probably faced (and given into) more temptation, and they still put on a good show every time. It is easy to blame exploitation, but you let yourself become vulnerable to exploitation. It's easy to blame the drink, but all the drink does is sit there in a bottle until someone decides to drink it.

I've had dealings with alcoholics, and you cannot cure them by meaning well, and if you try to help them, they try to drag you into their world. Whether or not it is a "disease" or "condition" is semantics as far as I'm concerned. It is an unpleasant and destructive phenomenon, whatever you choose to call it.

I've been to gigs where the performer has been too drunk to put on a show. It is simply unacceptable.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Jeremy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:39 PM

"Broken Biscuits has landed! All pre-order cds went in the post 9 November 2007."

Anyone got theirs yet?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,John K
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Broken Biscuits has landed! All pre-order cds went in the post 9 November 2007.

I pre-ordered too. No sign...

To be honest though, I'm almost glad. If "Kiba Jaya Jaya Gorachandra" which is now the soundtrack of the disfunctional (non of the links work) website is anything to go by, and presumably one of the better tracks was chosen as an 'advert', well..

Enough. I'll shut up

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,ripped off, bristol
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:39 AM

I saw the Bristol farce.
The man obviously has a drink problem and needs help. His management team / agent - hangers on are the ones ripping us off.
I pay good, hard earned money to watch these bands and can't get out very often (due to my own health issues - not self inflicted.
The responsability here for stealing money from me belongs to Davey Graham, the venue (they know his history - I didn't), the promotors, and his team. If the had advertised this as 'one drunk and walk off' - how many would have gone.

He may have problems - so do I. I shouldn't have to pay for this farce of a performance and not get my money back.

This thread is excellent because it makes it a little more difficult for him and his entourage to get away with it again.

Davey - the mrage is over - good riddance to bad rubbish.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: redsnapper
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:52 AM

Good heavens!

I thought this thread had served its time and had long been released on parole.

Sad to see this needless debate continuing on Mudcat. Those who are dissatisfied should work through direct channels not air grievances here.

RS

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:57 AM

You beat me to it, RS. There are two basic positions on this issue. Both have some merit and both have been repeated and bounced back & forth endlessly in a volley that a Wimbledon champion would envy. Nothing more can be said that hasn't already been said a dozen times. They're even talking about us over at fRoots. It's time to give this thread and its subject A REST.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:25 AM

I owe Davy a debt of gratitude, he was truly an inspiration. I really hope things turn out well for him.

I have very different feelings towards his 'minder' which I won't repeat here.

All the best, Davy - and thanks.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

Come on guys.... Knock it on the head.


Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:40 PM

I know that there is as much good as there is bad in this thread but the title must be extremely distressing to Mr. Graham.
Can we please either change the title or kill the thread?
Please!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Dave4Guild
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:46 PM

For me, to be in a a room with Davy,just for an evening,just to watch him play, just to be there, when he makes mistakes,is a privilege, even for £17.50, and if perhaps his performance isn't quite what you would expect, for reasons I won't go into,well so be it
Amy Winehouse for £22.50,What do I say?

With respect to the man who made me love guitars and folk music!!

Dave

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Joey A
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 08:46 AM

Well said Dave. I went to see the Davy, Smith, Pavey concert. The last one in the tour. I couldn't have loved it more. Did i go there expecting to see the Davy Graham that i listen to on the 60's albumns??? No! I expected to see how he has developed now and what he is playing.
If you haters on here think about the fact he is playing for you after so many years of being on the road etc you would be as happy as i was being in the same room. The minute he played a blues song with his reminicant licks of wierd tunings and great blues progressions my face lit up and i was in my element. Yes, he made some mistakes, and yes he may have been drinking. But he was by no means a shambles. I loved his set, and you idiots who have the balls to criticize him obviously have no brains to match and no appreciation for a great musician, Would you expect your grandad to be able to run a 100m sprint as fast as when he was 20?
   Long live Davy Graham!
             JOEY A

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM

O! Elves! With that tribute to a great inspirer ringing out, can this thread please be locked?

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:49 PM

PLEASE!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:52 PM

I second (or third or fourth or fifth) the motion...

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 12:59 PM

yes, I have asked for this disgraceful thread to be closed before.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: van lingle
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 02:02 PM

As long as people have something to say on the subject why close it. As a long-time fan of Mr. Graham I was happy to see Joey A's post.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM

So you won't mind if I start a "van lingle" thread?
Using your proper name, of course.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Captain Colin.
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:27 PM

Whatever one's views it is disappointing to see mudcatters- especially those who have had their say- advocating suppression of free speech. Credit to the moderators for taking no notice.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: peregrina
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

I fifth the motion; if the thread cannot be closed, then it would be better to have a neutral title at least.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Bugsy
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:05 PM

"Whatever one's views it is disappointing to see mudcatters- especially those who have had their say- advocating suppression of free speech. Credit to the moderators for taking no notice."

I am in no way advocating suppression of free speach. In fact, those that know me will affirm that I am a strong supporter of same. I just think that the discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere except round in circles.


Cheers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,ripped off
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:35 AM

The conclusion,

Excellent in the studio - a massive gamble live!

nuff said

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:34 AM

But isnt suggesting someone is an alcoholic, a personal attack.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: van lingle
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:49 AM

I agree that this thread would benefit from a name change but only if Ian the cookieless, it's originator, would consent. Just my 2 cents.

Jim, my proper name is Dave "not the news correspondent" Mattingly.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:02 AM

I think most posters just want this thread to reach 300

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:25 PM

Dave: The original poster did convey his regrets at both the title and the direction that this thread has taken. He has since left the thread.
I wouldn't really start such a thread in your name but did try to draw their fire by starting a similar thread using my own handle.
As Dick says; It's a personal attack and for that reason alone, I would be delighted to see it gone.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Brokenbiscuit
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:17 AM

I dont think a "waste" but possibly still lost?
My main concern has been his disregard for his fans - it might be a problem with management.One example of this is the way preordered CDs have been managed - some people are still waiting with no communication or explanation - I ordered mine in July last years and Im still waiting!.The closure of the original website indicated that there might be a problem - especially because there was some degree of disquiet about the delays posted there. The new website didnt have a forum. Then months of no information and no way of contacting the management through the new web site.
My experience of the gig in Bristol was mediocre - I wouldnt have gone if Id known how poor it was going to be.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:34 AM

well you pays your money you takes your choice

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: goatfell
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:35 AM

As I have said many times before leave the guy alone, and let bygones be bygones.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,John Robinson
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 10:41 AM

The new issue of Acoustic magazine includes a Davy Graham interview. Maybe a chance for the man himself to give his point of view?

link here

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,TB303
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

Just like to say, Last Saturday i went to another gig (The first since Davy @ The Lowry)

Went to see The Hives @ M/cr Apollo. What a band!!! Great live act. Been meaning to see them for years & finally got there. Highly recommended.

-303

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Carol-Ann Ballard
Date: 28 Sep 15 - 07:20 AM

Davey Graham was not on the internet. He was not the Davy Graham selling snippets from Nick Drake's robe on ebay; and he was not aware of this Thread till 1 June 2008 when he received his tour account - with the most cutting extracts from this thread attached. Those extracts were attached to explain why his total earnings for a 13 date tour were no more than £500 and most likely -£1,333. Take a further loss of management's 20% and a further loss from the CDs given away to disgruntled gig-goers at this concert and you will get a clearer picture. It was blatantly obvious that DG gave concerts in which he was paying for the privilege to be humiliated. The financial liability for the tour rested entirely on DG and was not shared with Management.
Your comments here on Mudcat were as good as an intervention - they actually helped Davey to understand what was going on (he requested a complete print out of the Thread and read them all). It was a sobering experience that supported his decision to cancel the 2008 tour dates. It was solely Davey's decision.
During his lifetime Davey seemed to have so little copyright control and now nobody dare speak up for fear of being silenced or sued. We are not all in the position of having a family member in the legal profession to protect us - or have access to unlimited funds for promoting ourselves. My voice will no doubt be deleted but as Davy's legacy is celebrated by the beautiful and the mighty please give a thought to the man behind the guitar: Should we walk out on him - then clap for another copycat guitarist who can't even play the bum notes gracefully?
Rise in Glory Davey x

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,David E.
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 12:31 AM

Well that was interesting. Why, I wonder, does this come to light now? Intrigued.......

David E.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 03:45 AM

Davey was an innovator and a fine musician.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:05 AM

When I was a young and budding guitarist in the 1960s I fell under the spell of Davey Graham's guitar playing. I lived, ate and drank it. I practised the pieces on each album as they all came out, one after another. My favourite, in spite of the brilliance of "Folk, Blues and Beyond", was his Pye Golden Guinea album, "The Guitar Player" which - to me and many like me - was a seminal album of guitar music.

All that, as I say, was when I was in my early 20s and had just got to grips with the guitar. I then started to hitch-hike down to London, just to see DG at the Cousins - mainly all-nighters - and got the chance to talk to him and play with him on several occasions. He was a charming, courteous and fascinating man, and infinitely patient with a pestering young guitarist!

Fast forward to 1968 and the Cousins. A packed audience was staggered to see Davey, goggle-eyed and slurring, stagger on to a high stool - and fall off it on to the piano (which was at the back of the stage in those days). We all sadly left and got our money back. I remember seeing John Renbourn at the door, peering in with a grim smile on his face at the proceedings. It was heartbreaking.

I never saw him live again - just to keep the memory of his early stuff preserved. And, of course, as I got older and wiser and less tunnel-visioned, other musical influences kicked in. I grew up and, though I rarely play his albums now, his spirit and vision live on.

With the benefit of 50 years hindsight, I would say that, in the end, it's better to ignore his self-inflicted (yes, self-inflicted) drug problems and sad latter years - and remember a man who was absolutely unique in his day and the creator of a style of playing that influenced a generation of aspiring guitarists.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 05:43 AM

Perhaps that it would be a good idea to see if we could get a "Blue Plaque " or even a "Green Plaque " that we have in Leicestershire to commemorate his birth place in Hinckley

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Carol-Ann Ballard
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 07:48 AM

Davey was born in Bosworth Hall - a stately home - then a refuge for his mother cause of the London bombings. He told me his granny had a scandalous encounter with the then Prince of England. He is down in the county records as being a 'bastard'. He was destined to be a King.

During Davey's last year he was taking control and shining. We travelled to Marrakech, Spain and Paris. He said he was holding the key to everything that ever pained him. He was becoming free - some folks really hated that…that is what is really sad.

In the hour leading to Davey's death someone involved in the Davey Celebration and the Stephen Gammond film called Davey a bastard. Something much more serious happened. It was not self-inflicted.

I spoke out but the folk singers went on singing - like a communal white wash.
They wilfully didn't ask questions, didn't want to know the context of their Celebrations or Film. Blanked me. Kept telling me it was the legacy that was important. Was his life worth less than the legacy? Celebrated both.

Davey was not a victim. He died a lion.

Join Care Not Killing.
Boycott Stephen Gammond's film. Make your own!
Get that plague on the Bosworth Hotel!

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:23 AM

Hello Carol-Ann, is that a "Yes " or rather not . Some of the local Guitarists think that it would be a fitting tribute to an amazing man

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,Carol-Ann Ballard
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

Definitely let's get the Davey Graham Blue Plaque on Bosworth Hall.
It would be a fitting tribute.

Subject: RE: Davey Graham: what a waste
From: GUEST,OldNicKilby
Date: 29 Sep 15 - 10:09 AM

Blue one will be difficult as he has not been dead for 25 years, but there is a "Green " plaque scheme here , that is a possibility, if we can get enough people to recommend it