Slotted heads - why?

Subject: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:42 PM

I have just finished changing the strings on my Mugen (Daion) 12- string (and polishing the brass and gold bits, and polishing the body, and cleaning the frets, and oiling the fingerboard, and finally putting it back into tune, or as close as a 12-string gets) and it has taken me nearly 2 hours (which is why I use Elixirs, so I don't ahve to do it so often).   It would be about half that if it had a normal peghead with the machine head shafts sticking forward. The 6 string equivalent does have the madhine head shfts sticking forward.

So why do guitar makers make slotted head guitars - 6 string, or 12 string (or mandolin or banjo makers)?

It's intrinsically weaker, exposing the guitar to easier breakage, and increasing the tendency for bending of the headstock when you tune 1 string (tune 1 - tune 'em all - we've all been there with 12 strings).

Would it be lighter, and would that be of any use?

What other reason could there be?

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 06:45 PM

It increases the angle of the string once it comes over the nut. If that angle is too shallow the string length can be compromised by vibrations travelling past the nut.
At least that's my theory
Giok ¦¬]

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:00 PM

Which is why most machine heads are angled back, and ones that aren't use string trees.

On most guitars the break angle is way lower over the saddle than the nut, and not many makers or fettlers slot the bridge.

Also, if the nut angle is enough to avoid string rattle at the nut, then vibrations will not be traveling past, and if they did you would hear them as a little high pitched "ting".

Have we a luthier in the house?

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:22 PM

I suspect it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" among luthiers who've been building them that way for years.

I've never found it takes significantly longer to fit a new string to a guitar with a slotted head.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:32 PM

Steel-string slot-heads appeal to two types of guitarists:

(1) Those who think "retro" is cool. All guitars were slot-heads until less than a hundred years ago and new slot-heads have that "old" vibe.

(2) GAS sufferers looking for something different to add to their guitar collections. Most players with only one or two steel-string guitars probably don't own a slot-head. The vast majority of slot-head owners probably own several guitars, with only one or two slot-heads in the collection for variety.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: redsnapper
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:11 PM

I prefer the aesthetic and never had a particular problem with stringing up slotted heads, 12-strings and mandolins included.

As a once full-time instrument repairer I don't see that the slotted design confers any weakness as the headstock is thicker. Generally speaking you get a more favourable angle too from post to nut.

Slotted heads are a bit more time-consuming and expensive to make. For some guitars, e.g. nylon strung, you can't really have anything else because of the size of the string roller and I expect that design has carried over from classical guitar to steel-strung.

RS

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 10:31 PM

Hey Snappy.....How ya' doin'?

Outside of the fact that slotheads are almost invariably 12 fret necks (almost I said), I think there is more in simply the tradition of it and the look which many like. I do remember reading some long winded explanation maybe 6 or 7 years ago having to do with scale length and tone plus someother stuff but to be truthful, I don't really remember much of it because as I was reading my mind said, "Sounds like bullshit doesn't it?"........and I had to agree with such a great mind(:<))

Myself, I have always liked the look and of the slotted head and the feel of 12 fret necks yet I've never owned one......dunno' why not. There is no inherent weakness in them or anything like that.....Guess I'm one of Bee-Dub' retro guys. 'Course if I was a real retro guy I'd own one!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Oct 07 - 11:52 PM

I'll take a stab at this one.
Guitar builders are as much artists as they are craftsmen (women). Those whom I have met/hired seem to run a constant battle between
practicality and artistic expression in their instruments.
This being said, the challenge of anchoring six strings, in a straight line, on either side of a block of wood without it breaking, leaves little or no room for artistic expression.
I'm sure they'd make them like Angel's wings if they could but 12 strings tugging on them for a lifetime is a heck of a lot of work for a wee stick.
Or not!
Jim

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Kiwi Guest
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 01:06 AM

I play around building instruments for myself and family.
I have a gut feeling that slotted heads have less give and are therefore a more positive anchor for the string to work against because it is double shear rather than single shear. In other words the machine head is anchored both ends of it's capstan and is therefore positively anchored and cannot flex.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 03:16 AM

Now if that doesn't reinforce what I just said then I... I.... em... well you know what I'm saying.



Gut feeling, eh!

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 03:30 AM

I've had lots of trouble with nuts on guitars... but maybe that's a different thread!

LTS

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:10 AM

Damn! I thought this was going to be a thread about why some people have slots in their heads. I have no slot but I do have a reasonably attractive shallow groove.

Nigel

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 06:26 AM

Kiwi Guest has the right idea about why slotted heads are/were used.

With the slotted head, both ends of the pin can be into the wood. It's not always done that way, but it can be and if the pin isn't supported in the wood at both ends, the slot "ain't bein' done right" - i.e. it's not being used to best advantage.

If the pin is properly held at both ends, the string pulls it one way, but the pin exerts a straight "contact pressure" against the wood at each end.

With an upright pin, the pin is held at one end, and the string pulls at some distance from where it's supported, producing a torque that works like sticking an ice pick into the wood and prying sideways. If you stick the pick in deep enough, it may hold; but the support at both ends of the pin in a slot is a "simpler" way of getting a "strong enough" and stable support for the pin.

With a "modern geared machine" the little screws that hold the machine to the wood can - usually - hold an upright pin against the twisting moment applied to the pin by the string. Fairly large "anchor plates" are common, and bushings may be added to some advantage. With simpler machines, the slotted head gives more support - and more even support - to the pin.

If there's a problem getting the strings through the pins on a slotted head, a good pair of small needle-nose pliers, or better yet a 4" to 6" hemostat from your doc's junkbox will be of some help.

If the close spacing of the knobs is the bigger problem, a "winder" of appropriate size may help. In a pinch, a "gator grip®" socket from your wrench set can be used if you're not terribly fussy about minor scratches on the buttons.

John

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 07:42 AM

Most modern machine heads have a helical nut and washer on the top surface that clamps the headstock between the said nut and washer and the machine-head body producing a secure mounting, and I always take one turn at the top of the spindle and then run the strings down towards the headstock so you get a nice neat wind of the string and the minimum torque on the machine head mounting.

If the machine heads on slotheads had waisted posts so that the strings wound neatly it would help, but usually they have not so the strings tend to wind towards one side of the slot or another, finishing up cutting into the wood, wearing it, and jamming, if you are not careful.

So, consensus so far is that it offers no significant acoustic advantage, am I right? ( unless Giok is right).

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 08:35 AM

If the string pressures in the nut and saddle are appropriate, the "dead end" at the pins should have little to do with the acoustics. The choice about how to secure and tension the strings is made based on the strength/weight/complexity of the attachment - and on what the luthier thinks "looks pretty."

If there's a problem with the strings "winding into the wood" one could always put a washer or bushing on the pins to protect the wood. If the pins (in a slot head) are truly square with the nut, there shouldn't be a strong tendency for the string to wind off to one end, but of course it may require a bit of care in stringing to assure that they always wind where wanted. The hole in the pin could, of course, be moved to one end or the other of the pin to help compensate for some endwise misalignment of the individual pin with the nut location for the individual string (to give more space for the string to wind onto one or the other end of the pin), but so far as I know that's seldom done deliberately.

The few slot head instruments I've noticed with "string gouges" in the wood generally belonged to people who made a habit of winding far more string onto the pin than needed, sometimes having a literal "rat's nest" clump and usually with long ends waving bravely in the breeze; but I haven't made any real survey to see if that's a consistent thing that a luthier working with many instruments would find. Opinions vary as to how many turns it takes to secure the string, and of course an individual instrument may have a "slick pin" or two that needs an extra wrap(?).

John

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 08:50 AM

Richard, to answer your last question........No, there is no significant tone difference and regardless of why they were originally used, their use today is more aesthetic than anything else. The exception of course would be classicals where the strings require a larger diameter peg.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: van lingle
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:35 AM

There's an archived discussion at the 13th Fret forum called "slotted vs pegheads" that's pretty interesting but not very conclusive.
To me that old 12 fret Martin-type body doesn't look quite right with a solid headstock on smaller bodies but those little Goodalls and Grevens are not exactly wallflowers.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 05:58 PM

D-12-35S(1969), D18S(2)(1964,1969),D35S(1976),D28S(1968),Jan Burda D35SW(1980)

D18(2)(1957,1967),D35(1971),D28(1976),D21(1967)

Have bought and sold alot of different Martin's in my search for the 'sound'. The slot-heads in view of the way the string wound to the tuning peg seemed to stay in tune better than the standard ones. This may be attributed to the fact that the slot-heads were all 12 frets to the body and the necks were wider and slightly thicker. Overall, the slotheads were a much more solid design, but didn't catch on as readily w/players because of the difficulty in reaching that last c-scale @ frets 12-14

The best of the lot above w/o question was the Jan Burda D35SW. It was made in 1980 out of red cedar w/black walnut sides and a 3 piece back ala Martin D35S. Scalloped bracing w/a mahogany neck and ebony fingerboard. The trim was maple and it had a rosewood pickguard. It was loud, great on mic and recorded like buttah.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 07:01 PM

Well, I agree that I know some slotted head 6s that sound excellent - Les Elvin's Martin, Mike Nicholson's Collings, and a Washburn that sat in a shop for a while near me - all short scales.

I think the 12 fret design enables lighter bracing (less leverage), and therefore a more flexible top. It also puts the bridge further back in the lower bout. So more and bigger sound might result.

I still don't see why a slotted-head should sound any better - but the stats seem to be on their side, unless it is the scale length that does it.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 08:08 PM

My first guitar, a Regal I bought for $9.95 in 1952, had an unslotted headstock, as did the Martin 00-18 that I bought in 1953. I traded the 00-18 in on a Martin 00-28-G (nylon-string classic) in 1955 when I started taking classic guitar lessons, and I've had several Spanish-made guitars since then, all with slotted headstocks. I don't think you can get a claasic any other way unless you custom order it. To me, changing strings is always a chore, no matter what kind of headstock a guitar has.

I own two travel guitars (Go-guitars, made by Sam Radding in San Diego), one nylon-string and the other steel-string. The nylon-string Go has a slotted headstock. I ordered it that way because it's what I'm used to, and I like the fact that the tuning keys are all pointed the same way, not three-and-three pointing in opposite directions. For small travel guitars, these instruments verge on the outrageous. I've used them for a number of performances in sizable venues, and their sound is practically indistinguishable from that of full-sized guitars!

Anyway, Sam makes these travel guitars to order, and he charged me an extra $50.00 for the slotted headstock because he said they take more time and care to make.

I think Kiwi Guest has the right of it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:06 PM

I've given the question some thought, and I've come down on the side of the slot-heads. As has been pointed out, the string barrel is a better 'engineering' solution, being supported at both ends and with less point tension on the bearing surfaces, which may support Guest Jeff's impression that slot-heads stay in tune better.

As for strength, I've never heard of one that breaks or distorts under string tension, but it could happen with a 12string, I suppose.
Heads get broken when the instrument is knocked over backwards and lands 'head-first.' Then it doesn't matter what type of head it is, it is broken!
I'd rather repair a solid than a slot, though.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 28 Oct 07 - 09:10 PM

I haven't had time to read the posts above.

If slotted heads are anything like pierced eyebrows and studded tongues, our youth are in serious trouble.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Geoff the Duck
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 06:24 AM

Back to the original question, Why slotted headstocks?
I expect that history has a lot to do with it.
Lutes, cittens, viols and violins were all made using tapered friction pegs in a boxed headstock. The box shape gives strength to the head, as it has three solid sides. As mentioned elsewhere, it also supports and grips both ends of the tuning peg.
I expect that a slotted head came about as a cost cutting technique as, instead of carving out a hollow shape, you just need to drill a hole at each end, then saw through to join the two together. Much quicker and less skill needed.
Of course, drilling a hole through a flat piece of wood and puttting a friction peg through vertically needs fewer tools and can be done on a more basic level as shown in forerunners of the banjo, but still gave a tuneable string.
Most basic technique is simply to tie the string to the neck (tea chest bass) and tune it by a second loop tied around the neck to shorten the string - essentially capoing a single string instrument, which appears to be what is done on some African instruments (guessing from looking at pictures on the web).
Quack.
GtD.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: mattkeen
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 08:57 AM

Regarding the 12 fret body join... I have always understood that the primary sound reason for it as opposed to a 14 fret join, is that the bridge and nut are then equi-distant from the join- is that your understanding?

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 09:11 AM

It's only going to be an antinode of the fundamental, and then only when the string is open, so I would not have thought the fact that the open octave is at the neck/body join would make a lot of difference. I suspect that the possibly more open sound of the 12-fretters is down to two things, mostly. First the neck has less leverage so the construction of the guitar can be lighter all round (it would be interesting to compare some of the new breed of "braceless" tops that use a bridge doctor to prevent bellying, and indeed some of the Tacoma construction guitars, and even the rare ones with no soundhole that are being experimented with: I believe that for a while there was a chap making guitars with carved bodies like cellos and no bracing, and they were very loud, but as a result of the time and material intensive construction they cost aboutthe same as a good-ish cello - ie about £12,000 each!) and so vibrate more, and second it puts the pull of the bridge pretty well in the middle of the lower bout leaving room for the bracing not to be too tight on the bridge, so again permitting more vibration.

If you look at the X-braged Hagstrom J-45s carefully with a mirror, you can see that the bracing is very close indeed to the inner bridge plate, and I think that probably follows from the bridge location which in turn flows from the 15 fret neck. Most of them have a lovely sound, but they are not the same type of sound as the better 12-fretters.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Oct 07 - 04:38 PM

So's that the winding shaft can be supported at both ends making it a beam instead of a cantilever and therefore much stronger.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: open mike
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:04 PM

I am fortunate to have a Martin D 35 S -- 6 string and equivalent 12
string. I believe the "S" stands for Slot. The 3 piece back and shorter, wider finger board suit me fine (except for when playing Barr chords..)

I have seen a few others who play these...Tom Paley, the late Isaac Guillory, Johnny Cash and Elvis , too, (but i have not seen them play).

Oh, by the way, if you have a really bad case of GAS , Johnny /Cash's
D 35 S is for sale for a cool $150,000 http://www.gruhn.com/features/cashD-35S/AA6768.html

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:20 PM

When I change strings, I anchor the string at the bridge, then pull the string tight around the post and wrap it three times around the post, then through the hole in the post and then tune it. This takes very little time and I can often replace a broken string before the rest of the band is finished the tune. Unfortunately, my wife has a 1921 O-18 and this method cannot be used on a slot-head guitar. Fortunately, she finger-picks and has never broken a string on stage.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 12:29 PM

Guest Jim-
As a matter of fact it can. The wrapping takes a bit more care, but no appreciable extra time.

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 09:33 AM

Geoff, I'm not an expert so please don't hold me to every fact but the way I see it the historical evidence seems to point in the opposite direction although the cost factor seems to be a significant one. Early guitars evolved from the vihuela and so didn't use the head 'box' as used on lutes etc. These vihuelas and the later Baroque guitars were certainly no buskers' boxes (check out the Stradivarius guitar!) and Torres' early guitars featured the solid headstock with friction pegs - pretty much the same as the modern flamenco.
It seems that the modern classical as developed by Torres started to make use of the slotted headstock as tuner technology developed to produce the worm gear design in realistic quantities/prices. As soon as tuner design developed further to produce the single right angled units (and multiple units on plates) as used on steel strings, headstock design was changed to suit (as you say - it's far easier/cheaper to make the solids). This all appears to have taken place around the 1920's as Martin converted from mainly gut to steel string models - the now familiar 14 fret Orchestra Model then made use of this new technology - initially OM models used banjo tuners on a solid head.
So it seems that makers may have wanted to find an easier way of making the headstock but had to wait until engineering came up with the technology to facilitate this.
So current slotted steel strings? I don't know but I suspect that form follows fashion and damn, those 12 fretters do look cute!
Oh - and if you check out some of the cutting edge designs you can now have a single slot 'box' design remeniscent of cellos etc with side mounted tuners (..and they're EXPENSIVE!!).

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:04 PM

As others have said, it's part history, part physics, part aesthetics, and part hype. Twelve-string guitars with solid headstocks do put the 3rd and 4th courses pretty far "out" from the nut, so the "break" across the nut can be a problem, but 6-stringers don't so much.

Like people have noted, many "retro" styles have slotted heads and 12-fret necks, which not only give you the slotted head string-angle advantage, but typically put the bridge farther back from the soundhole in the body, which has an acoustic effect.

I've heard it said that the mass of a solid headstock with geared tuners produces a different sound that the lesser mass of a slotted stock with (usually) lighter tuners, so, combined with the effect of the bridge placement, a 12-fret, slotted-head guitar will sound different from a 14-fret, solid-head one, and some folks like that difference.

Among 12-string guitars, I used to pretty much hate the Martin 12s, with their slotted heads and 12-fret necks, preferring the Guilds, which had solid heads and 14-fret necks. When Martin finally produced a solid-head 14-fret 12-string model, it was nearly as good as a Guild, so the design was indeed the deciding point for sound (to me). Of course, this was back "in the day" when nearly the only choices for 12-string players was a Martin or a Guild (unless you hadn't the money, in which case you got a Harmony/Stella or a "real" Harmony -- a 12-fret Harmony Sovereign Jumbo, basically).

So there are sound reasons to prefer either kind, and many, many makers (now) to cater to those preferences.

Bob

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: mattkeen
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 04:18 PM

Richard
Not saying that I am right about the equi-distant thing with 12 fretters, but to my ears they do sound different to 14 fretters. What do you think makes the 12 fretter more open sounding?

PS . I have one of each made by Brook Guitrs in Devon

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Oct 07 - 07:09 PM

I think it's the lighter body bracing and the different location of the bridge, in the middle of the lower bout and not so close to the soundhole

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: mattkeen
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:06 AM

Thanks Richard

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GLoux
Date: 01 Nov 07 - 11:44 AM

I would add to Richard's comment that the upper bout is also bigger, making the soundbox a bit larger than a 14 fret (at least in the case of my 12 fret OOO).

-Greg

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: GUEST,Me to you
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:09 AM

Oy

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: Greg B
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:46 AM

It seems to me that one real down-side to slotted heads is
that when it comes time to replace the tuning machines it's
going to be a lot easier to get just what you want and install
it on a solid headstock. With slotted heads, things are going to
have to line up with the original holes, and the machines are
usually tied together in a 'rack.'

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: redsnapper
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:03 AM

Hi Greg,

On most slotted headstocks (but not all) with sets of tuners, the spacing is fortunately at a standard width. Occasionally the hole size might need a little adjustment.

RS

Subject: RE: Slotted heads - why?
From: mattkeen
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM

Hopefully the ridiculously expensive but very lovely set of Waverleys on my Brook Guitar will not need replaeing very often