Mary Neal letters and archives

Subject: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:18 AM

Available on Radio4 Listen again,Great Aunt Mary,s tune.
Bearing in mind,Mary Neals express wishes that they should not go to the library at Cecil Sharp House.
Any suggestions as to a more appropriate venue,Perhaps one associated with the suffragette movement.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Tradsinger
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

I got the impression from the programme that the Neal family were willing to forget the spat between Mary and C# a century ago and were actually considering C# House as a repository for the letters. I am concerned that if they go elsewhere, however worthy the organisation, that they will be lost to view for the folk fraternity. Most of those questioned (Malcolm Taylor, Shirley Collins, Mike Heaney etc) all stated that the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library in C# House would be the best place. Interesting.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:47 AM

But there is the argument that if they go somewhere else,you may be introducing non folkies to the music.For example people interested in her social work and womens emancipation,may become introduced to the music.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: treewind
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:28 AM

If people interested in her social work and women's emancipation have to go to C# house to see the documents, they'll get exposed to folk music there too.

Mary Neals' problem was with Cecil Sharp's personal "museum-keeper" agenda; the aims and activities of the EFDSS now are far more compatible with Neal's own aims that they were in her time.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:52 AM

Treewind ,very clever,but I am not convinced.
the likelihood of exposure to greater numbers of non folk enthusiasts,is more in a busy museum,than in a relatively quiet[apart from folkies]C~# House,where you have a ten minute walk from the tube station,and not very good parking facilities.
If Cecil Sharp House was moved,to a place with good parking and good public transport connections,there might be a stronger argument.,but it is still against her wishes.
another alternative might be that CecilSharp house, were allowed to have computerised copies,so that the folk fraternity could view it there.
Mary Neals work was about the social emancipation of women through folk dance,not just the promotion of folkdance,these were notCecil Sharps aims.
Mary Neal expressly forbade ,that her letters ETC,should go there,who are we to say that had she died yesterday,she would have expressed her wishes differently,should not her original wishes be respected.
finally Cecil Sharp house is not the only folk museum in the country .Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 07:04 AM

Listen to the programme again, Dick. It does not expressly state that Mary Neal didn't want the papers to go to Cecil Sharp House. It says that Lucy was given the papers with that proviso. As she was not actually given the papers by Mary Neal, there is no reason to suppose that these were the wishes of Mary herself. Indeed, Mary Neal had resolved her differences with Sharp later in life, as was discussed in the programme.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: RTim
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 08:38 AM

As someone with no axe to grind - it seems to me that this thread is just another stick with which Dick Miles can try to beat the EFDSS!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 09:44 AM

NO.
please explain how I am beating the EFDSS.I am attempting to stimulate discussion,the more people who contribute to this thread,voicing their opinion that C Sharp House is the right place,the more likely it is to happen.
I think the EFDSS are now doing more good, than they have for a long time.

Ruth Archer has given a good argument.
But:
Mary Neals work was not just about the promotion of folk dance,so[imo] it is not entirely appropriate that they[the letters etc] go to C Sharp House.
I have pointed out a couple of disadvantages location wise to C SHARP HOUSE[thats hardly beating the EFDSS],There are also a number of advantages,I am sure Ruth can explain these.
Mary Neal believed in using folk dance as a way of improving the lot of disadvantaged women,CecilSharp did not: it would seem logical that her letters and archives go to an appropriate venue.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: RTim
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM

Dick - the Neal Family are already saying it is going to happen - and The VWL is the BEST place for the info., as it fits with all the others bits & pieces they have.

Let's not relive the outdated arguements of those early years and support the EFDSS and the Library and allow them to continue doing the great job they already do!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:38 PM

One important thing to remember is that, while Mary Neal occupies a very significant position in the history of the folk revival, her profile in the women's sufferage movement, and in the history of poor relief, is very minor. If her papers went to a library devoted to wider social history (with or without a feminist context), one could argue they'd be more or less lost amongst the archives devoted to others with far higher profiles. At VWML, however, Mary (and her archive) would be held in suitably high esteem - her picture, even now, has pride of place in the foyer of Cecil Sharp House.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: GUEST,The Ballad of The Bold Researcher
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:45 PM

"If people interested in her social work and women's emancipation have to go to C# house to see the documents, they'll get exposed to folk music there too."

Only if they want to be exposed to the music.

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:00 PM

Here is the link to the Mary Neal archives online, thanks to a lot of people, not least EFDSS: Mary Neal - An Undertold Story.... I came across this yesterday, thanks to another American dance caller's web site.

"This site creates a new public space to celebrate Mary Neal's story and those of the Espérance girls.

"It does not provide a definitive biographical survey of Mary Neal's life, nor a complete history of the folk revival. It represents a loose collection of texts, images, narratives and observations through which you are invited to rummage. It is unfinished and hopes to provide a trigger for future research.

"You can explore the site chronologically from 1860, through keywords or characters who crop up in Mary's story: eg Emmeline Pethick Lawrence, Florrie Warren, Edward Carpenter, Rolf Gardiner, Cecil Sharp. "

I spent just a little time with it and found tidbits for contributing to info in two other Mudcat threads, on morris dancing in the U.S., and sea chanty recordings.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:06 PM

It also includes letters of reconciliation between Sharp and Neal just prior to Sharp's death.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 08:44 PM

I do have to say that the design of the website is "a loose collection". The page represents a chunk of time, but the objects on the page are not in any chronological (or other logical) order. And, if you click on one of the graphic links, when you return to the page of links, things are in a different order. Kind of a pain to actually use, if you're looking for anything in particular.

The indexing is imperfect, as well. A search on "America" does not bring up this key page, but as they say, it's a work in progresss, and if someone's paying attention, the ability to comment directly on the site will bring improvements.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 10:19 PM

Regarding the original post to this thread and the related discussion, since it's not possible to hear that Radio 4 program now, it's useful to read Lucy Neal's article in the Guardian of Feb. 7, 2009. I've posted the full text in this other Mudcat thread on "Mary Neal Day", where the link had originally been posted.

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 17 Jan 12 - 11:09 PM

Some other resources online about Mary Neal:

So who was Mary Neal anyway?, by Janet Dowling, for the Morris Federation Newsletter, 2000

Mary Neal & Women's Morris, by John Maher, at www.mainlymorrisdancing.org.uk (this has some interesting OCR errors)

Morris Dancing And America Prior to 1913, by Rhett Krause, M.D., at American Morris Newsletter, Vol 25, No 4, December, 2005, reprinted from Country Dance and Song (journal of CDSS), v. 21, 1991, and v. 22, 1992). See especially the section entitled, "How the Morris Came to America".

Esperance Morris Book (this allows you to view a section at a time, but there are nasty OCR problems. It's also available as a single pdf from the Mary Neal Project site and New York Public Library, and as a Google eBook)

Esperance Morris Book, volume 2 (not otherwise available online)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 18 Jan 12 - 01:38 AM

The text of the BBC Radio 4 program, "Great Aunt Mary's Tune", by Lucy Neal, is available to read as a pdf, here. (Download from that page, not a direct pdf link.)

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 19 Jan 12 - 09:40 AM

refresh?

Subject: RE: Mary Neal letters and archives
From: Rain Dog
Date: 01 Aug 14 - 09:44 AM

Hi Becky

Just in case you did not see my posts on the other thread "Radio 4 - early days of Folk Dance", the programme was repeated this week and is available to listen to on the BBC site for another 6 days


Great Aunt Mary's Tune