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folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird

GUEST,Alan 09 Nov 07 - 10:50 AM
Joe Offer 09 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM
Peace 09 Nov 07 - 02:49 PM
Leadbelly 09 Nov 07 - 03:16 PM
Mick Pearce (MCP) 09 Nov 07 - 03:37 PM
Stewart 09 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM
GUEST,Alan 10 Nov 07 - 12:59 AM
Marilyn 10 Nov 07 - 04:13 AM
Leadbelly 10 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM
Joe Offer 10 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM
autolycus 10 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM
Peace 10 Nov 07 - 04:32 PM
Marilyn 11 Nov 07 - 04:24 AM
Marilyn 11 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM
autolycus 11 Nov 07 - 04:47 AM
Marilyn 11 Nov 07 - 05:13 AM
Leadbelly 12 Nov 07 - 04:10 AM
Marilyn 12 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM
GUEST,leeneia 12 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM
Marilyn 14 Nov 07 - 07:50 AM
Leadbelly 14 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,GUEST: Will Keen 07 Dec 10 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Matt 08 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM
Jack Campin 08 Jan 11 - 01:42 PM
Artful Codger 09 Jan 11 - 01:52 AM
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Subject: Stravinsky's Firebird
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:50 AM

I am searching for the Russian folk song that Stravinsky used in the finale of his ballet, The Firebird. Anyone know a good source for it?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:46 PM

Hi, Alan - I added a bit to your thread title to make it a bit more specific and see if it attracts more attention. I dont' know the answer to your question, but this message of mine will bump the thread up to the top of the Forum Menu again.
It's a question that's intrigued me for quite some time - is there a resource that will help identify folk songs used in classical pieces?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Peace
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:49 PM

Any chance you have the song name? Some writeups on "The Firebird" mention the use of folksongs, but so far I haven't located the title. If we all crap out, maybe an e-mail to one of the symphonic orchestras would result in an answer.?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Leadbelly
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:16 PM

He made a selection out of hundred of russian folk songs. Because we cannot ask him for his special choice it will be very difficult to find the correct answer to this interesting question.

Manfred


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 03:37 PM

You might have a look at this article which suggests a source for some of the folk songs: The Music Of Igor Stravinsky And His Influence On 20th Century Popular Music in the anthologies edited and collected by Balakirev and Rimsky-Korsakov.


Mick


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Stewart
Date: 09 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM

I once (about 50 years ago, yikes!) sang under the direction of Igor Stravinsky in the chorus of his Les Noces. It too combines Russian folk songs, rhythms and instrumentation. But I never thought to ask him about the folk songs.

Cheers, S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: GUEST,Alan
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 12:59 AM

Mick, thanks, but I had already come across the article "The Music Of Igor Stravinsky And His Influence On 20th Century Popular Music" which only identifies it as a melody from the Balakirev Anthology (1873), but it does not provide a title or any of the words. And, yes, Peace, the title is exactly what I'm needing to make it easier to track down the complete melody--I was hoping someone might know it. And, yes, Manfred (Leadbelly) he drew from hundreds of folk melodies, but we do know the melody he chose; it's a matter of matching it with the authentic Russian folk song, with its title, text, and melody--which is what I'm hoping someone still may be able to provide. Thanks to all...and hoepfully someone will still be able to provide the answer.

Alan


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 04:13 AM

Firebird doesn't use as many Russian folk tunes as Petrushka but here are two that I know of.

The 'Round Dance of the Princesses' is based on the song 'The Vain Suitor' for which I have both the dots and the lyrics in English. Should I post them and what about copyright issues?

The finale of the Fire-Bird is based on the song 'The Larch Tree' I have the dots for this and some but not all of the lyrics (in English - don't have original Russian, I'm afraid).

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable about this will post but, if not, perhaps this could be a start for you?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Leadbelly
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM

FOUND THE FOLLOWING MENTION (http://www.berliner-philharmoniker.de)IN GERMAN. They talk about a folk-song about "the pine in front of the gate" (das Volkslied von der Kiefer vor dem Tor).
Sorry for not having the time to translate this source.

"Als sich das Happy End abzeichnet, spielt das Solo-Horn – das Instrument des Prinzen – über flirrenden Streichern das Volkslied von der Kiefer vor dem Tor, zunächst in der Original-Gestalt. Kurz darauf aber, als sich die Handlung ihrem großartigen Ende zuneigt, verwandelt Strawinsky die Vorlage in etwas völlig anderes: Der Rhythmus und die friedliche Grundstimmung des Originals verschwinden; übrig bleiben die einzelnen, gleichmäßigen, in einem Siebener-Takt vom ganzen Orchester geschmetterten Töne des Volkslieds – einen triumphaleren Schluss kann man sich wohl kaum vorstellen."

Manfred


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM

Please post the songs, Marilyn. In general, posting of songs for discussion in a forum like this seems to fall under the "fair use" allowances of copyright law. As far as I know, the US has the longest copyright protection - it covers back to 1923. "Firebird" was written before that (1910, suite in 1919), so it is in the public domain - so it's doubly certain you're free to post the songs here.
By the way, the Wikipedia article on Firebird is very interesting.


-Joe-


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: autolycus
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM

The only thing I've so far turned up is a huge 2-vol set, presumably borrowable thru the public library, called Stravinsky and the Russian Traditions by Richard Tarnskin (Uni.Cal.Press, 1996), more than 1700 pages. Sounds exhaustive from a review.

Alternatively the best Stravinsky study in your nearest library or bookshop, or the library copy of the New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians.


    Ivor


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Peace
Date: 10 Nov 07 - 04:32 PM

Good to see you back, Ivor.


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:24 AM

The Round Dance of the Princesses based on 'The Vain Suitor'


1. Through the garden a young man goes;
   On the breeze floats the perfume of a rose;
   On the breeze floats the perfume of a rose.

2. Past the green vineyards far he roams,
   And the while all his yellow locks he combs;
   And the while all his yellow locks he combs.

3. 'All my locks must be neat and smooth,
   In the latest fashion', declares the silly youth
   In the latest fashion', declares the silly youth

4. 'And my Barbara - I'll train her too;
   She must know all the smartest things to do.
   She must know all the smartest things to do.

5. "I'll take care not to be disgraced;
   She must learn to appreciate my taste.
   She must learn to appreciate my taste.'

6. But the girl sadly shakes her head;
   'With a vain man I'll never wed.
   With a vain man I'll never wed.'


Sorry, I have no idea whose translation this is.
I also have the tune in standard notation but don't know how to post that - can anyone advise, please?
I have some music notation software called Mozart so could 'Mozart' the tune and then post the .mz file. Would that be any use?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:35 AM

The Larch Tree

1. Close to the gate there's a splendid larch tree,
    Ei looly looly splendid larch tree.

2. Doniushka dances and sings in her garden,
    Ei looly looly, sings in her garden.

3. Suddenly she sees a youth in the bushes.
    Ei looly looly, youth in the bushes.

4. 'Dance, little Donishka; soon you'll be mine.'
    Ei looly looly, soon you'll be mine.

5. Frightened she runs in, her eyes wild with terror.
    Ei looly looly, eyes wild with terror.

The tune for this (which I have in standard notation but don't know how to post) is used for the Finale of the ballet. Stravinsky starts it quietly on solo horn. The same tune is repeated many times with more instruments joining in at each repetition.


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: autolycus
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:47 AM

Marilyn - marvellous. Knowing your source would be, too.


(Peace, great to be back and to hear from you.)



    Ivor


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:13 AM

Oops, got so carried away with delight at being able to put in bold and italic type (need to get a life!) I forgot to quote my source.

Both songs are in The Oxford School Music Book Senior Part II (books 2 and 3 - this is from book 3). I used these books in the seventies teaching music in school and the Firebird was a real favourite with the kiddlywinks(!) Happy memories.


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:10 AM

Marilyn, The Larch Tree is the song I mentioned (see above),

Manfred


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:53 AM

Manfred:
The Larch Tree is the song I mentioned (see above)


Yes, of course it is - how stupid of me not to have made the connection.
Excuse alert! - my schoolgirl German isn't up to much.

I know that it's possible to take the abc for a tune and convert it into standard notation with, for example, the concertina.net 'thingummybob' but does anyone know how you can do the reverse i.e. take a tune in standard notation and produce the abc for it? If so, I could post the actual tune for this folk song. I know that I should be able just to look at the tune and write out the abc but I can't!!

Alternatively, if someone is willing to write out the abc from seeing the dots I could scan the music and email it to them if they PM me with their email address.

Marilyn


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM

I don't know the answer to Alan's question (What is the name of the Russian folk song used?)

However, I have found a MIDI of the Round Dance of the Princesses

http://www.kunstderfuge.com/stravinsky.htm

When I saw the Firebird performed, it occurred to me that The Round Dance of the Princesses could be a nice number for my band, which has flutes,recorders, harp, and guitar. I had no idea how to find a MIDI. Now I have it.

Now to use music software to make the piece accessible to my friends...


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Marilyn
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:50 AM

Jack Campin has very kindly taken a scan of the dots for The Larch Tree and converted it to abc. Many thanks Jack.

X:1
T:The Larch Tree
M:3/2
L:1/4
Q:1/2=104 "Moderato"
K:F# Dorian
B2 B2 A2|(GB) F2 E2|(A3G) (FA)|(GE) F4 |
w:Close to the gate* there's a splen-* did* larch* tree
w:Don-iush-ka dan-*ces and sings* in her gar-*den
B4    A2|(GB) F2 E2|(A3G) (FA)|(GE) F4|]
w:Ei loo-ly* loo-ly, sings* in her gar-*den.

To play or display ABC tunes, try concertina.net


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Leadbelly
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

Hi, GUEST, Alan,

Marilyn made it!!!

Any comment?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: GUEST,GUEST: Will Keen
Date: 07 Dec 10 - 03:23 PM

Hello,

Yes, I know where to find it.
Follow this link: http://imslpforums.org/viewtopic.php?p=8594#8594
and go to figure 198. The melody is in the horn part there.

Will


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:12 PM

Hi there,

Despite some rather unhelpful answers (Manfred), although I don't know the name of it, if it was given one, it's No. 79 from R-K's '100 Russian Folk Songs'.

I studied the Firebird as part of my degree and found the collection so can say it with some confidence.

Hope that helps!

Matt


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 01:42 PM

Matt, it looks to me like the question was completely answered. Have you read the whole thread? If so, what's missing?


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Subject: RE: folk song used in Stravinsky's Firebird
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 Jan 11 - 01:52 AM

According to several Russian pages like this one, the "pine before the gates" song is "Не сосна у ворот раскачалася" = "No pine sways at the gate".    Stravinsky later used this tune again, for a canon, "Вариации памяти Олдоса Хаксли" = "Variations in memory of Aldous Huxley" (1964).

The lyrics above for "The Larch Tree" correspond to some I found for "У ворот сосна раскачалась" = "At the gate a pine sways". The title given for these lyrics translates as "The girl and the voivod's* son":

ДЕВУШКА И ВОЕВОДСКИЙ СЫН
   
У ворот сосна раскачалась,
Наша Дунюшка разыгралась,
Наша белая расшутилась.
Воеводский сын на крыльце стоит,
На крыльце стоит — поиграть велит:
«Поиграй, Дунюшка, поиграй, любушка.
Я тебя, Дуня, лучше всех люблю,
Я платок куплю с алыми лентами,
С алыми лентами, с позументами!»
К вечеру Дуня захворала,
Ко белу свету на погост везут.
Воеводский сын на крыльце стоит:
«Прощай, Дунюшка, прощай, любушка!
От меня Дуня на тот свет пошла,
Во сыру землю, во желты пески,
Во желты пески, во дубовы доски!»

My literal translation:

At the gates a pine sways/shakes,
Our Dunyushka played,
Our fair-skinned one amused herself.
The voivod's son stands on the porch,
Stands on the porch, commands her to play:
"Play, Dunyushka, play, my dear,
Dunya, I love you more than all others,
I'll buy a kerchief with scarlet ribbons,
With scarlet ribbons, with braid!"
By evening, Dunya fell ill,
To the white earth, to the churchyard they carried her.
The voivod's son stands on the porch:
"Farewell, Dunyushka, farewell, my dear!
Dunya has gone from me to the earth,
Into the dry ground, into the yellow sands,
Into the yellow sands, into the oaken planks!"

* A voivod was the governor of a province, or the commander of an army. The adjectival form, used here, might extend to other administrating officers.


The Russian title of the round-dance movement is "Хоровод царевен"—this may help in searches for information.


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