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Anyone watching My Son Jack?

Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM
Linda Kelly 11 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,jorgen 11 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 07 - 05:29 PM
Mr Red 11 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM
Dave the Gnome 11 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM
BB 11 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM
Andy Jackson 11 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM
Linda Kelly 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM
Alan Day 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM
John Routledge 11 Nov 07 - 06:38 PM
GUEST,Louis. 11 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM
GUEST,Phil 11 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM
Liz the Squeak 11 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM
Lanfranc 11 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM
John J 11 Nov 07 - 07:46 PM
GUEST,lisa 12 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM
Catherine Jayne 12 Nov 07 - 05:07 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Nov 07 - 05:17 AM
GUEST,sparticus 12 Nov 07 - 05:32 AM
Liz the Squeak 12 Nov 07 - 05:46 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Nov 07 - 06:12 AM
skipy 12 Nov 07 - 06:13 AM
Liz the Squeak 12 Nov 07 - 06:16 AM
the button 12 Nov 07 - 06:17 AM
The Villan 12 Nov 07 - 07:01 AM
GUEST,Cats 12 Nov 07 - 07:11 AM
fat B****rd 12 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 12 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 12 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Deb 12 Nov 07 - 01:30 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 12 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM
fat B****rd 12 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,sparticus 12 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM
Mrs.Duck 12 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM
skipy 12 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM
vectis 12 Nov 07 - 04:28 PM
Dave the Gnome 12 Nov 07 - 05:01 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM
paula t 12 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM
The Walrus 12 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 07 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 13 Nov 07 - 02:49 AM
The Villan 13 Nov 07 - 03:27 AM
The Walrus 13 Nov 07 - 06:18 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 13 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM
Simon G 13 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM
skipy 13 Nov 07 - 07:10 AM
The Villan 13 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM
The Villan 13 Nov 07 - 07:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Nov 07 - 08:05 AM
Fiolar 13 Nov 07 - 08:13 AM
Dave Masterson 13 Nov 07 - 09:29 AM
GUEST, Sminky 13 Nov 07 - 09:46 AM
GUEST,Edthefolkie 13 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,strad 13 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM
Big Al Whittle 13 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM
Joe Offer 13 Nov 07 - 02:39 PM
Simon G 13 Nov 07 - 03:43 PM
The Villan 13 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Georgina Boyes 13 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 07 - 03:01 AM
The Villan 14 Nov 07 - 03:22 AM
GUEST,Mark Addison 14 Nov 07 - 04:05 AM
Keith A of Hertford 14 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM
GUEST,Kieran 14 Nov 07 - 04:36 AM
The Walrus 14 Nov 07 - 04:44 AM
Big Al Whittle 14 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM
The Villan 14 Nov 07 - 12:41 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM
GUEST,Jane Roberts 14 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM
Desert Dancer 14 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 15 Nov 07 - 03:05 AM
Jack Blandiver 15 Nov 07 - 03:29 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 07 - 03:54 AM
GUEST 15 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 15 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Nov 07 - 02:43 PM
Mysha 15 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM
Desert Dancer 15 Nov 07 - 04:05 PM
Mysha 15 Nov 07 - 05:01 PM
Mysha 15 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM
skipy 15 Nov 07 - 05:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 07 - 07:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 07 - 03:20 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 07 - 03:37 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM
Jack Blandiver 16 Nov 07 - 08:49 AM
Mysha 16 Nov 07 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,Alan Purslow 16 Nov 07 - 11:39 AM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 07 - 11:57 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM
GUEST 16 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM
Mysha 16 Nov 07 - 04:02 PM
The Villan 17 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM
Keith A of Hertford 18 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Nov 07 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Jim Carroll 19 Nov 07 - 03:29 AM
keberoxu 20 Feb 16 - 02:53 PM
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Subject: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:55 PM

Or an I the only one multi-tasking?

UK Channel 3 (ITV) at the moment, the story of Jack Kipling, Rudyards son. Starring Daniel (Harry Potter) Radcliffe. Marvelous up to now.

I know how it will end though...


:(


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM

me Dave, very impressed espeically Daniel Radcliffe-keep hearing Pete Bellamy in my head


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:13 PM

What a fantastic depiction of the horror of the trenches. They don't need blood and gore. Trench foot and young men crying will do it:-(


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,jorgen
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM

yes, very good!!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:29 PM

I never realised Rudyard Kipling had an American wife btw. Small point but I am now wiser that I was before!

D.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

recording as we speak.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:02 PM

Wow. What more can anyone say. I though the BBC did the best dramas but ITV have certainly done the business with this one.

I believe the DVD is now available or you can see some online somewhere around here.

Cheers

D,


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: BB
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

Superb play. Wish they'd known about Anni F's rendition of the Kipling/Bellamy song - it would have been brilliant in there somewhere. I know I'll never be able to listen to it again without remembering this play.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM

Very worth watching - beautifully shot and impeccably cast. As Dave says above, the true horror of war without blood and gore all over the place as in so many modern productions.
And what a talent in David Haig, I had no idea.

Andy


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

excellent and written by David Haig who played Kipling -very nice motif at the end when the two men the king and kipling are both together sharing their grief over the loss of sons.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Alan Day
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:30 PM

I rarely if ever comment on TV programmes apart from Folk ones, but this has to be one of the best acted dramas ever.David Haig was without doubt the star of this programme, not only for writing it, but for his acting.
His portrayal of Rudyard Kipling was without doubt an oscar winning
performance.
If this did not bring a tear to your eye and make you consider the horrors of war and family loss then nothing will.
Al


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: John Routledge
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:38 PM

What a superb programme. Very moving and informative. Can't say more at the moment than agree with all that has already been posted.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Louis.
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:42 PM

One of the most "heartbreaking" drama's i've ever seen, deeply
moving...........David Haig should win a BAFTA for this !!!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:48 PM

Admired the father's agony


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 06:56 PM

It was a truly memorable piece of drama, superbly acted by all.

It captured completely the eagerness and almost obscene willingness of young men to go to the Front, and the equally obscene ignorance of 'modern' warfare and enemy capabilities from the authorities of the time.

I'm actually quite glad that no-one thought of adding a Bellamy rendition of Kipling to this drama. It needed nothing else to illustrate how terrified those boys were.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM

The song I had in my head as I watched the scene in the trenches wasn't the Bellamy/Kipling one, but Jacques Brel's "La Colombe". I could have wished to watch it without commercial breaks (one of the advantages of BBC productions when viewed on their channels) but we switched off the sound during those unwonted interruptions and did our best to ignore them.

I agree with everything said above - that was one of the finest TV dramas that I have seen in years and a fitting tribute on Remembrance Sunday. Young Radcliffe can act.

There were a few liberties taken in the name of dramatic effect, but it worked. It probably won't do the visitor figures at Batemans (the actual Kipling House used in the film) any harm, either.

I hadn't Kipled recently, but I'm going to bed with his complete works!

Alan


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: John J
Date: 11 Nov 07 - 07:46 PM

I couldn't bring myself to watch it - although I expected it to be as good as the reports above.

JJ


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,lisa
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM

can someone tell me how it ended? i fell asleep 15 mins from the end, but i was really enjoying it!
lisa x


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:07 AM

An absolutely fantastic piece of drama.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:17 AM

'can someone tell me how it ended? i fell asleep 15 mins from the end, but i was really enjoying it!
lisa x '

The son was discovered alive. He had had fallen deeply in love with a Steve Knightly lookalike, and they ran away together, and founded a cake empire.

Steve still sings the song Cousin Jack that was handed down through the generations.

Not many people know that.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:32 AM

I did!

An excellent drama.

It was called "My Boy Jack" by the way!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:46 AM

Lisa - a quick resume of the last 15-20 mins or so.

Jacks' parents spent years going through photographs of soldiers looking for him. They used Rudyards' contacts at Whitehall to gather information from various hospitals, believing he had only been injured. They interviewed what must have been every remaining Irish Guard until finally, in 1919 they found one who had seen him fall. The push over the top in 1915 had seen some of the battalion reach the enemy dugout and heavily defended command post. Jack, armed only with his revolver was last seen running towards this active machine gun and was shot in the leg and shoulder. He dropped and his glasses came off. He groped around in the mud and blood for them, crying in agony. The other Irish Guard was below him in the trench, saw him crawling but could not bring himself to go and help Jack out. Jack regained his feet and attempted again to rush the command post but the machine gun hit him in the chest and he fell there. At confirmation of his death, Rudyard finally admitted to his wife Carrie, that he felt guilty of his son's death, as though he had murdered him.

The last scenes were of Rudyard visiting the King, who greeted him with the comment 'I forgot to time you' as had been his habit. They faced each other and Kipling consoled the King on the loss of his youngest son John (see 'The Lost Prince', by Stephen Poliakoff) who had died recently. Kipling recited a poem - 'Have you seen my boy Jack' which he had written in 1915 when his son was originally posted as missing.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:12 AM

I prefer my ending.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:13 AM

Superb! Just superb!
I have it on video & will be happy to loan it to anyone who did not get to see it.
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:16 AM

WLD - I'm sure Rudyard would have preferred that ending too... along with several million other parents.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: the button
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 06:17 AM

I only caught the last 15 minutes, because I am a dirty stop-out. However, on the strength of what's been said here, I think I'll get the DVD.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:01 AM

I saw it and in many respects reminded me of the film Gallipoli.

Gallipoli left me absolutely stunned and it was very chilling, about the stupid waste of mens lives in war. It took me a long time to get over that film.

Blackadder over the top (series 4 Blackadder Goes forth) had the same effect on me. Did anybody see that. Totally unexpected and very chilling.


Whilst I enjoyed the play, it didn't affect me like Gallipoli or Blackadder.


My daughter who loves Harry Potter through and through, thought the play was boring becuase it wasn't like Harry Potter :-)


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Cats
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:11 AM

Very moving. Daniel excellent. It is very strange for me to watch as Kipling proposed to my grandmother and she turned him down. He gave her a set of pink pearls from Harrods, which I now have. What if he had married his Quaker love [look for the poems 'for Emma']? This would never have been written.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:21 AM

Excellent drama,enjoyable as well as moving.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:37 AM

Very good programme (what I saw of it) - I had a few Pete Bellamy moments too. First thing on ITV for an age worth watching IMHO.

I do wonder however if Kipling really treated the King like his old mate George (not calling him Sir, etc)? I would have thought RK was a stickler for protocol and all that.   

I channel hopped a bit last night because there was an outstanding programme about Wilfred Owen over on the BBC, introduced, quite surprisingly, by Jeremy Paxman. Paxo came over very sympathetically - more to him than just skewering politicians on Newsnight.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

I think it worth pointing out that 'Rudyard' nearly rhymes with 'woodyard' and almost exactly with 'study hard' - although not so much with 'stud yard'. Just in case anyone is writing a song about it..

Paxman would have fitted in quite well in the first world war:-

None of you know the capital of Venezuela! Incredible!......Right! picture round....starter for ten, which projectile is sized 303 coming this way in large quantities and reputedly has ones name written on it? You have to buzz!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM

Your starter for 10, Mudcat - which famous British author is the only bloke named after a lake and an almond slice? Come on, no conferring....Sorry, that's it, you lose Alsace and Lorraine.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Deb
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 01:30 PM

Me too, very overwhelming and extremely moving. Deb


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

Would this be the same Rudyard Kipling who encouraged thousands of young men to go off to be slaughtered one of the most obscene wars in history, then changed his mind when his son was killed.
A tragic way to learn a lesson.
Sorry, never understood the Kipling bit.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

Do you like Kipling ??


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:28 PM

Didn't like the books but love the cakes. They are exceedingly good!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

He wrote exceedingly good short stories and poems
I loved the film The Man who would be King and the poem Danny Deever.

But yeh Jim (total agreement!), he was a prat. not an isolated prat - Oscar Wilde was very gung ho for the Boer War. It was obviously a mindset that was around at the time.


I used to go past the statue of Lord Roberts (who featured in the play) every day in Exeter, and not really know anything about him.

It was a bravura performance by David Haigh, but I felt rather the same qualifications about being overwhelmed, as you did Jim.

A bit like Milton on divorce - he was dead against it, til he found himself married to someone he didn't like. People like that DO tend to piss me off. Its that willingness to consign other peoples lives to the shitter, for dumb ideology.

I think that's what really annoys me about the traddies' disdain for Jack Hudson's work. (total disagreement!)


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM

A wonderful piece of drama.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:08 PM

As mentioned above Rudyard is a lake where his parents used
"to meet", his first name is Joseph.
Not a lot of people know that,
M Cane
Pretending to be Skipy


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: vectis
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 04:28 PM

Very moving. Well worth watching.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:01 PM

So he supported the war, then, when someone close to him died, he changed his mind. I don't think that really makes him a prat. I would say he behaved like any sensible person. Or are only people who are anti-war allowed to be affected by tradgedy? Are people not allowed to make mistakes of judgement any more?

At one time I was for or against all sorts of things that I have changed my mind over since. Life changes you. The only real prats are the ones who are so blinkered that they don't allow it to.

And, more to the point, it was still a remarkable piece of drama!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

Well the model for what modern warfare entailed had been there for all to see since the American Civil War, and the Boer War had only been a few short years before.

My Grandfather always insisted that the conditions in the Boer War were a damn sight worse than in the trenches of the first world war, and he served in both.

Like a lot of creative geniuses, RK was a prat. he did a lot of braying about Tommy this and Tommy that, without acquainting himself with even the most basic facts.

RK owed it to all the people who respected and listened to him, not to have misled them. If we can't trust our poets to have a decent humane vision, what good are they? Apart from providing us with adventure stories and catchy rhymes - and I think honours like OM and the Nobel Prize should mean more than that.

As you say - a remarkable piece of drama. But it sort of sticks in my craw, being asked to empathise with him.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: paula t
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:20 PM

I had a headache by the end because I had cried so much. One of the most agonizingly sad elements was the "repression" of men at that time - in that they were not really allowed to show their feelings.One of the most touching scenes was the farewell scene when Rudyard so obviously wanted to hug and kiss his son goodbye- but couldn't , because it "wasn't done".The other was when he briefly lost control then gathered himself and took control of his feelings again.Unbearably sad and beautifully written and acted.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 05:45 PM

I don't think that there is any reason to think that "he supported the war, then, when someone close to him died, he changed his mind." And that wasn't how most families reacted at the time. The words of John McCrae in "Flanders Fields" were an accurate enough expression of the way relatives were expected to react, and did react:

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields


I'm sure Kipling would have felt he had betrayed his son by pulling strings to get him into the army when he wasn't fit for it, rather than pulling strings to keep him out, which was a more typical thing for people in his position to do. But that's a different thing from turning against the war.

And it still goes on - in every war at some point would be peacemakers are seen as "betraying the fallen".


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

...Rudyard so obviously wanted to hug and kiss his son goodbye- but couldn't , because it "wasn't done".

It still isn't, more often than not. In England anyway.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE CHILDREN (Rudyard Kipling)
From: The Walrus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 09:38 PM

I agree that it was a fascinating piece (one or two errors in the kit and sets, but they didn't detract from the power of the piece).
I knew John Kipling had died at Loos and had no known grave (I believe he was found sometime in the '80s, although there is still some doubt expressed over the identification), and I was aware that the Kiplings spent much time tring to locate, first him then his grave, but this play brought home the point.

I think I'll be looking to buy the DVD.

W


I bitterness felt can be seen in some of the Epitaphs RK wrote.


COMMON FORM
If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.


The Children - 1917

THESE were our children who died for our lands: they were dear in our sight.
    We have only the memory left of their home-treasured sayings and laughter.
    The price of our loss shall be paid to our hands, not another's hereafter.
Neither the Alien nor Priest shall decide on it. That is our right.
            But who shall return us the children ?

At the hour the Barbarian chose to disclose his pretences,
    And raged against Man, they engaged, on the breasts that they bared for us,
    The first felon-stroke of the sword he had long-time prepared for us—
Their bodies were all our defense while we wrought our defenses.

They bought us anew with their blood, forbearing to blame us,
Those hours which we had not made good when the judgment o'ercame us.
They believed us and perished for it. Our statecraft, our learning
Delivered them bound to the Pit and alive to the burning
Whither they mirthfully hastened as jostling for honour—
Not since her birth has our Earth seen such worth loosed upon her.

Nor was their agony brief, or once only imposed on them.
    The wounded, the war-spent, the sick received no exemption
    Being cured they returned and endured and achieved our redemption,
Hopeless themselves of relief, till Death, marvelling, closed on them.

That flesh we had nursed from the first in all cleanness was given
To corruption unveiled and assailed by the malice of Heaven—
By the heart-shaking jests of Decay where it lolled on the wires—
To be blanched or gay-painted by fumes—to be cindered by fires—
To be senselessly tossed and retossed in stale mutilation
From crater to crater. For this we shall take expiation.
            But who shall return us our children ?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 12:50 AM

' But who shall return us our children ?'

He should have seen Matthew Brady's pictures of the American Civil War, and had this thought occurring to him beforehand, (as I'm sure it did to many less influential parents).

At least Rupert Brooke paid the price for talking villainous nonsense personally. RK's son picked up his tab. And I think maybe a dignified silence would have been in order - rather than another lot of bloody useless sanctimonious words.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:49 AM

In the late sixties we were asked to record a friend's grandfather, then quite old, who had lied about his age in order so 'serve his king and country' in France.
For two days he talked about the obscenity of WW1, speaking about it as if it were still happening, and often bursting into tears as he told it as it really was. He more-or-less forgot we were there as he relived his experiences.
One of the most moving parts of the week-end was when he spoke about the deserters. These were not cowards who ran away because they were afraid, but young men - often little more than children, whose minds had become so benumbed by the constant barrage of noise that they simply turned and walked away from it.
They were usually found on the roads, making no attempt to evade capture, were systematically picked up by the military police and taken back to base where they were routinely tried by a drumhead court and sentenced to death. They were then imprisoned to await execution.
If the fighting became intense they were taken out of prison and placed in the front line to 'do their bit'.
After the action had died down, (if they survived the fighting) they were returned to prison and eventually shot by firing squad.
Tom described how it felt to be fighting next to somebody one minute, chatting and swapping cigarettes and experiences, and the next, reading a notice saying he had been shot as a deserter.
Surely society at its most barbaric - Land of Hope and Glory or what - can't wait for next year's 'Proms'.
We sat for many hours with Walter Pardon, listening to him talk about the relative merits of Kipling (a fellow Norfolk man) and Hardy (Walter was very much a 'Hardy nut'). It was he who introduced me to the Hardy poem 'The Man I Killed' - now there's a poem that tells it like it was - streets ahead of all the other jingoistic garbage.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE FALLEN OF FULSTOW (Addison/Blanks)
From: The Villan
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:27 AM

Funny you should mention >>Tom described how it felt to be fighting next to somebody one minute, chatting and swapping cigarettes and experiences, and the next, reading a notice saying he had been shot as a deserter.
<< Jim

The link below tells a similar story.

Fulstow

Mark Addison and John Blanks produced a song called

THE FALLEN OF FULSTOW

The village is in Lincolnshire UK


Lyric: Mark Addison Music: John Blanks
Performed by: John Blanks
Copyright © Mark Addison & John Blanks 2006

In the village of Fulstow the village hall stands
To the memory of those who've gone before,
The sons and the daughters, The Fallen of Fulstow
Who died in the Second World War.

But where's Pennell and Taylor, Wattam and Sherriff,
Harrison, West, Green, Marshall and Hyde?
Gave their all in the Great War, the war to end all wars,
You won't find their names inscribed.

Ten young men played in the fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in the fields of green,
And though nine of them died on the field of battle
There's no memorial to be seen.

Charles Kirman, a soldier before 1914,
Recalled to the field, to Mons and The Somme,
Twice wounded in battle, and with honours awarded,
He knew that he could not go on.

So Charlie went AWOL, but he turned himself in
And he told them of the pains in his head.
"My nerves are shot to ribbons, I don't know what I'm doing",
Still the General sentenced him to death.

Then come 1918 the village was told
"You may honour your dead, God rest their souls,
With a stone to your nine sons, The Fallen of Fulstow,
But Kirman's not to be on the roll".

They said, "Ten young men played in our fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in our fields of green,
Only nine of them died on the field of battle
But all ten have the right to be seen".

It's eighty-odd years now, and the General's gone
There's a statue of him somewhere I dare say.
The 11th of November, 2005
Saw Fulstow's first Armistice Day.

"Ten young men played in our fields of Fulstow,
Ten young men played in our fields of green,
All ten of them died as brothers in arms
And ten names are there to be seen".

"All ten of them died as Brothers In Arms,
And ten names are there to be seen".


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Walrus
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:18 AM

"...He should have seen Matthew Brady's pictures of the American Civil War, and had this thought occurring to him beforehand, (as I'm sure it did to many less influential parents)..."

WLD,

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but, at the time, the American Civil War was a minor conflict in what was then a minor power - American influence would not grow until the 20th Century - Of more importance to British civilians would have been the Crimea ; Indian Mutiny; China (1860 2nd Opium War); New Zealand (Moari Wars); Canada (Finian Raids); Abyssinia; the Ashantee Wars; South Africa (Zulu wars) or Afghanistan and Egypt.

To be honest, at the time, I'm not sure how many people, outside of the US would have seen any Matthew Brady photographs or even heard of him.

As for the nature of the Great War, remember that it was going to be a short sharp War, if not 'over by Christmas' it was expected not to last more than a year or so, it was to be a war of movement (just like the Franco-Prussian War) - believe it or not, the 'mutual siege' of trench warfare came as a shock to both sides.

The problem is that, from this distance, it is difficult not to view any decision made then, without hindsight, which must, by its nature distort our view.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM

I actually don't think that Kipling was a a simple jingo and a racist, as he is, or at least was, often painted. But the Blimps who did hold those attitudes misunderstood RK (to an extent, anyway) and he became a sort of tin god to them. By the time he was hobnobbing with Royalty he was well insulated from argument and criticism. And he paid a terrible price - his son's death.   

George Orwell, who was not noticeably right wing, defended Kipling. And of course Pete Bellamy's Kipling work changed a few attitudes - I suppose mine included.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Simon G
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:00 AM

Anyone got the tune to the Mark Addison/John Blanks song The Fallen of Fulstow (two above), or can point me to a CD or contact.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:10 AM

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/03/2005_23_mon.shtml
& click "listen"
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

You can hear it at this link

http://www.angelfire.com/folk/johnblanks/lincs.html

Scroll down to the bottom of the page and click on the link that says "The Fallen Of Fulstow"

If you want approval to perform this song please get in touch with Mark Addison http://www.markaddison.net/

If you then click on the link that says"Instruments/Contact" and scroll down thwe page and you will find Mark's contact info.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 07:49 AM

>>http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/03/2005_23_mon.shtml
& click "listen"<<

Nice one Skipy

Here is the link Mudcat style http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/youandyours/items/03/2005_23_mon.shtml


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:05 AM

Here is the essay by George Orwell that "GUEST,Edthefolkie" pointed us to:
Rudyard Kipling

Quite long, but well worth reading. (Being long can be a virtue when things are well worth reading.)
.......................
It's too easy looking back to ignore the fact that what seems in hindsight insane was in 1914 a virtually universal consensus - a determination and enthusiasm for the War as a totally righteous enterprise. On both sides.

It united people who idolised Kipling's Imperialism, and people who detested it. Militant suffragettes who had been involved in something close to war against the British government backed the war. In Ireland a republican like Tom Barry joined up to fight for "the rights of small nations"(and in the process acquired military skills he later used to fight the British back home in Cork.) Gandhi out in India backed the war effort.

And we don't have to think back very far to see something very similar in the wake of the Two Towers.

It is fair to attack the judgement of people who back wars on the basis that they are mistaken - tempering this with a recognition of how very few people saw it that way at the time. But to support and promote a war in which other people's children are sent to die, and make damn sure it is not our children, that may be human, but it is certainly not something in which to take pride.

George Herbert Walker Bush and George W Bush, or Rudyard Kipling and Jack Kipling. Take your pick...


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 08:13 AM

Interesting that the whole programme was made in Ireland. The special effects of the shelling were brilliant.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave Masterson
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:29 AM

Superb drama - the whole cast were excellent. Daniel Ratcliffe as Jack was perfect casting, personifying the youth that were thrust into the nightmare. Like so many of the young soldiers of the time, take away the moustache and what do you have? Boys. I don't know how they did it. It certainly was a different world.

As I have stated in a previous thread, my great-uncle was a lieutenant in the Worcestershire Regt. and was killed at Paschendaele (Ypres 90 years on). The scenes of trench warfare were very graphic and gave one an idea of what he and his comrades must have gone through.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST, Sminky
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 09:46 AM

Here's the entry for John Kipling's grave on the Commonwealth War Commission's website (top entry).


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Edthefolkie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:15 AM

Thanks "McGrath of Harlow" for finding that link to Orwell's essay.
I first read that in the one of the four Penguin paperbacks of Orwell's letters and shorter works. Still got all of 'em.

Weirdly, shortly after reading it I saw Peter Bellamy for the first time - and he did lots of Kipling songs. So off I went and bought Peter's "Merlin's Isle of Gramarye". Wish Peter was still with us -what an enormous talent. I can imagine him arguing with Orwell "over there in paradise"!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:35 AM

Where is the poet for Iraq & Afghanistan? The loss of life is just as futile and useless now as then.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM

'I'm sorry to disappoint you, but, at the time, the American Civil War was a minor conflict'

'We had twenty Waterloos........'

Shelby Foote


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 02:39 PM

Debra Cowan (Mudcatter DebC) did a nice performance of My Boy Jack at her concert in Lodi (California) Saturday. I first heard the song in a concert by Dave Webber and Anni Fentiman - it's on their Away from it all CD. Musical setting by Peter Bellamy.
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Simon G
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 03:43 PM

A heart thanks to the Villan for posting the words for The Fallen Of Fulstow and the link to the tune and Mark Addison. Great story and good song, not all great stories become good songs.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:53 PM

Simon
You are very welcome.
I was hoping Mark would post on here.
John Blanks is in hospital at the moment, otherwise I am sure he would have posted.
Les Worrall


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Georgina Boyes
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

McGrath is right in saying that in 1914, many of the Suffragettes decided to postpone their struggle for equal rights for the duration of the War. A small number, however, stood out against militarism and withheld their taxes, attended international peace conferences and at considerable personal loss and risk, took every opportunity to bring the War to an end - among them Cecil Sharp's sister, Evelyn. Not many people know that.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:01 AM

I had to laugh earlier. I came across this in another thread...

This week on mudcat, we've had people having a go at Ewan Maccoll, Alex Campbell - and now theres a thread saying nasty stuff about Big Tom, Daniel O'Donnel and his family, and Brendan Shine - all very popular entertainers who have given hours of pleasure to folk....   I can't understand it

Then on this thread I saw...

Like a lot of creative geniuses, RK was a prat.

Weelittledrummer - Do you not find these two statements somewhat contradictory? Or does RK not fall into the category of someone who has given 'hours of pleasure' to pople? ;-)

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:22 AM

What's a Pople? Is that e female Pope LOL :-)


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Mark Addison
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:05 AM

Thanks for the compliments re "Fulstow" Simon, and thanks to Les for posting the lyrics. You certainly don't need our permission to perform the song...we'd be grateful. (Especially if you fill in the PRS form!)
If you can get hold of a book called "All Things Lincolnshire" you will find the story, lyrics and transcription of the song in standard notation, although I believe John actually uses DADGAD tuning.
BTW, get well soon John!


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM

"The loss of life is just as futile and useless now as then. "

The debate about modern wars goes on, but you insult the dead of WW1 by saying that their deaths were futile and useless.
The Kaiser's Germany was a nasty militaristic regime noted for its cruelty to its subject people in its colonies.
Their armies swept through Europe, massacring civillians not in the fog of war but on orders from the top.

Should they have been allowed to occupy the whole of Europe and most of Russia?
Were those young men wrong to stand against them?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Kieran
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:36 AM

A great piece of drama, very moving.
Glad to see they had a good set, costumes and equipment, obviously wasnt cheaply made, this contributed to its rawness in the battle scenes!
By the way if you want a great hard hitting book to read about WW1 and Dublin regiments that fought in the first world war would recommend A Long Long way by Sebastian Barry. What a book!!

Anyway good on yer ITV for making this drama.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Walrus
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:44 AM

"...'I'm sorry to disappoint you, but, at the time, the American Civil War was a minor conflict'

'We had twenty Waterloos........'

Shelby Foote ...



In the 20 odd years of the Taiping Rebellion (1851-64), the casualty list reached 20 - 30 Million as a direct result of Warfare and the resulting famines (At the Third Battle of Nanking in 1864, more than 100,000 were killed in three days*) but how many people know much (if anything) of that war?
Incedentally, it was this conflict which brought Charles ('Chinese') Gordon (Gordon of Khartoum) to the fore.

"...twenty Waterloos..."

Walrus


* By two armies which had firearms (probably not of the latest pattern), but very little artillery.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:42 AM

This is too tedious. The American Civil War was not a minor conflict. This is just the mouthings off of some 'patriot' who thinks that Martin Carthy's farts are more artistically significant than every artist on Folkways Records. He probably voted for Thatcher - its that sort of jingoistic myopia.

Ewan MacColl, Alex Campbell, Big Tom, Daniel O'Donnel and his family, and Brendan Shine - none of these people were instrumental in getting young men into the killing grounds of the the First World War.

Rudyard Kipling was. I think 'prat' is a kindly and considered judgement on someone who did what he did. Mind you some of the arseholes on this site are still handing out white feathers to Ewan.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:41 PM

Here you go, eat your heart out on these. A young lad made these

I'm Ollie and I'm 13. I went to see CBS with Michael Morpurgo on Sunday at Norwich. WOW! I'd admired them from afar before, but never really listened to them. It was a beautiful, moving concert and it really made me think. I have subsequently made two videos about WWI with CBS songs to back them.

Lay Me Low - Coope Boyes & Simpson

Soldier WW1 - Coope, Boyes & Simpson


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM

WLD - I know what RK did was pretty bad but on the other hand he did, to papaphrase, make exeedingly good poetry and often spoke out against the establishment.

I just think it is a little disingeneous of you to plead for the fair treatment of artists and then call one you don't happen to like a prat. But fair enough - It is your viewpoint and I will not argue that Mr K senior did not have failings. I think the drama we are discussing showed more than one.

I happen to dislike at least one of the people on your list but, because I know people can and do take offence, I have recently tried to avoid tilting at other peoples heroes. Maybe if we all did the same there would be fewer disagreements here?

Having said that, there are some peoples heores really worth tilting at! It is simply the marker between the ones who do and do not deserve respect that is the floating point of contention!

Cheers

Dave


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:24 PM

Papaphrase? Something my Dad said?

:D


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jane Roberts
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

A powerful drama, a well written and emotional story. This will stay with me for a very very long time. Well done to all the cast.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:26 PM

Thomas Hardy's The Man I Killed

I wonder if this program will make it over to US TV.

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:05 AM

'The Kaiser's Germany was a nasty militaristic regime noted for its cruelty to its subject people in its colonies.'
Course they were - and didn't the Hun bayonet babies and rape women - the newspapers said so at the time, so it must be true!!
Does anybody seriously believe that one regime was any worse than the other and that the people living under German colonisation fared any worse or better than did those of India or Malaya or Ceylon - give us a break!
And when the carnage was all over-then what?
Many of those brutalised in the trenches changed their uniforms from khaki to black and tan and went off to brutalise the Irish (where they are still spoken of with hatred and fear); or were shipped off to Russia to throw their weight behind the forces attempting to re-instate the Tzar.
And what about those who stayed at home having fought 'the war to end all wars'?
For them there was mass unemployment, hunger and degradation on the dole and on the street corners of Salford and Liverpool and Jarrow and Whitechapel.
And then the roundabout started up all over again and we were into yet another world-wide conflict; this time for 'a world fit for heroes to live in'.
And when that one was over there was Palestine and Greece and Korea and Cyprus and Malaya and Kenya and The Gulf and The Falklands - and Ireland, of course.
Since the end of WW2 our ally, the US, had invaded, bombed over 50 countries and has interfered clandestinely in the internal affairs of countless numbers of others, mostly with British support, if not with our active participation.
Our language has even been altered to cope with the ongoing situation - torture becoming special rendition, and the slaughter of civilians, collateral damage.
Nowadays the weapons used are napalm and Agent Orange and phosphorous rather than mustard gas, but it seems little has really changed fundamentally. The reasons for sending young people to kill and be killed are still very much the interests of the wealthy and powerful and despotic, and it is still the people who stand to gain least who give most.
When will we ever learn - as the lady sang.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:29 AM

I'm actually on with the final chapters of Deathly Hallows right now & having watched 'My Boy Jack' I can't help but see Harry Potter as the mustachioed Daniel-Ratcliffe-as-John Kipling in his WW1 captains uniform...


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:54 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Belgium

These events are well documented historical facts.
Visit Belgium and ask.
It is also undeniable that German armies invaded France and the low countries and her battleships fired their huge shells into English east coast towns.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM

It is also true that a British warship sailed up the Liffey in 1916 and fired shells into the centre of Dublin, that British soldiers burned and looted Cork City and also burned Miltown Malbay, Lahinch and Ennistymon,
as well as murdering innocent non-combatants in all these places.
Ehence the difference
What is your point.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM

Follow the links and read Jim.
Should the people of Europe have just lain down to before the jack boots?
The point is Jim, that the Kaiser's armies came close to reaching Paris and the Channel ports and they had to be stopped.
Why insult the memory of the brave men who stopped them by saying that what they did was worthless?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

WW1 was an imperialist war for world markets and political influence.
The troops who filled the trenches were expendable and were sacrificed for that aim; their officers calculated on a daily basis how many soldiers should be sacrificed for how much ground gained.
British workers had no business slaughtering German workers. By 1919 Germany was involved in a workers revolution almost to the point of victory by the revolutionaries. The Russians showed the best sense and pissed off home.
Let those who start the wars fight them. Flag waving and handing out white feathers is for the Kiplings of this world (that is, as long as it doesn't involve personal sacrifices of course).
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:43 PM

So, Jim, British workers had no business slaughtering German workers? I wholy agree they didn't, but that sentence really sums up where your sympathies lie.

Was it OK for German workers to slaughter British workers then? I would guess from some of your other comments it was. A British warship sailed up the Liffey. Cork city burned. Innocent civilians were slaughtered. Of course those things are bad. But who's battleships bombarded the east coat of England in WW1? What about the cities destroyed in WW2? And as for the slaughter of innocent civilians I think our tutonic neighbours can outdo most people there can't they? Does a figure of 6 million ring any bells?

Of course we were all as bad as each other in some ways. Of course workers shouldn't fight fellow workers. Of course the men of politics, power and greed are to blame. However, when you start to lay it on so thickly about how much worse the British were, your good arguments become lost in meaningless racist rhetoric.

One final question. What has all this got to do with how good the drama was anyway?

Dave.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM

Well, there can be said several things about the causes of the events that became the Great War, and then (how to say this in English) the World Inferno (?), so feel free to invite me to a thread about that topic.

In the mean time, in this thread, I'd like to know a bit more about that Kipling/Bellamy song that was mentioned a few times. Like, is this folk music? Is so, what are the lyrics like?

                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:05 PM

Mysha,

Bellamy set a number of Kipling's poems to music. He and others recorded them. See, for example, this current thread.

Whether it's folk... since it's Bellamy, folkies are attracted...

~ Becky in Tucson


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:01 PM

Hi,

Thank you. I understand this is something like Cornelis Vreeswijk singing Bellman. Bringing together the texts of the poet and the music skills of the artist, the products of such projects can be a joy to listen to. They do tend to lean towards the melancholy, but that may inherent to the combination of music and poetry.

I'll try to keep an eye on the other thread to see if more about it comes up. In the mean time, I must say that the search of the Rudyards for their son, followed by that final report, has the making of a folk song itself.

                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

Erm, I think that sentence might come out better with their name changed to "Kiplings":

I must say that the search of the Kiplings for their son, followed by that final report, has the making of a folk song itself.

                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: skipy
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:58 PM

History repeats!
Nuff said
Skipy


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:01 PM

If we're into cursing Kipling for backing the war, surely that should go along with similarly cursing the Labour Party and the TUC in the UK, and the Social Democrats in Gemany, who forgot all their fine words about international solidarity of the workers, and rallied to the flag.

The truth is, that's what people do in certain types of crisis, then as now. Indeed, there's always a saving minority who fall in line - but we shouldn't be too confident that we'd have been part of that minority, when we are scorning those who went along with the majority.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:41 PM

If we're into cursing Kipling for backing the war, surely that should go along with similarly cursing the Labour Party and the TUC in the UK, and the Social Democrats in Gemany, who forgot all their fine words about international solidarity of the workers, and rallied to the flag.

The truth is, that's what people do in certain types of crisis, then as now. Indeed, there's always a saving minority who refuse to fall in line - but we shouldn't be too confident that we'd have been part of that minority, when we are scorning those who went along with the majority.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:20 AM

"Was it OK for German workers to slaughter British workers then?"
No, of course it wasn't, and to suggest that my arguments against war suggest that I take sides is ingenuous, to say the least.
Those who fight at the front in wars have no say in the matter and therefore, have no reason to be sent off to slaughter and be slaughtered; simple as that.
McGrath: re your comments on The Labour Party, the TUC, The Social Democrats (and you can add the Provisional Government in Russia (Mensheviks) to that list); yes, they all swallowed the jingoism being spouted by the Kiplings of the world and betrayed their principles; they were well rewarded for doing so by becoming part of the establishment.
The same can be said for present day New Labour who threw their support behind the US in the war for oil that is at present being waged.
Sod them all, I say!
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:37 AM

OK Jim, but do you include in your rant those who, when home rule for Ireland failed utterly to get any democratic support, took up arms and started killing Irish and British workers, against an army fighting for national survival and in which hundreds of thousands of Irish workers had volunteered to serve?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM

"Home rule for Ireland" had overwhelming support in Ireland, as it had for generations. And it was a policy on which the Liberal British Government in office since 1905 had actually repeatedly been elected, but had failed to deliver.

But all that's drifting the thread excessively, and belongs in other threads, I suggest.
...........................................

There's an almost irresistable tendency when looking back on historic disasters to make judgenments as if the people involved were acting in the knowledge of what actually transpired later. We see the war hysteria of 1914, and see it through the slaughter of the trenches. Future generations will see the Iraq invasion and see it through the nightmare of what has become of Iraq since sectarian mass murder, repression of women and religious minorities, Abu Ghraidb and Guantanamo.

But the naive people (including the likes of Kipling) who cheered on the troops and talked about a war to bring freedom weren't thinking in those terms. They fantasised about a quick and decisive campaign that they believed would change the world radically for the better. And they were in the vast majority.

The point of looking back is not to dole out blame, or for that matter praise, it is surely to try to examine why they were so catastrophically wrong in their judgement, and why those who were far closer to the truth in their warnings were dismissed and marginalised.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:11 AM

Sinn Fein, the political movement advocating home rule, was unable to attract voters and by 1915, ten years after its founding, was bankrupt and unable to pay its office rent.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:49 AM

A fine point McGrath of Harlow, although I would have thought Kipling wasn't so much naive as he was innocent - at least innocent of hindsight, which is all very well depending on the colour of ones spectacles, rose tinted or otherwise, and what historical perspectives one chooses to subscribe to.

I remember once sharing fags in a Northumbrian cemetary with a WW2 veteran who'd lost his legs & genitals, aged 19, as a result of standing for hours on end in the sea at Dunkirk. I was nineteen myself at the time, and underwent something of an epiphany; humbled to be in the company of a hero, rather than a victim, who wore his medals with the same pride with which and he told his story.

I dare say if I'd been a songwriter I'd have penned a suitable song; something about me with my pig tails and assorted Anarchist & CND badges enjoying the sort of freedom for which he'd laid his life on the line, and survived, albeit somewhat diminished, but more of a man than I'll ever be.

Needless to say whilst the hair remains (in one final follicle-fling!) the badges, and the diverse ideologies that attended them, are long gone...


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:08 AM

Once more on the topic:

If that TV-film didn't have that Kipling / Bellamy song, what kind of music did it have?

                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Alan Purslow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:39 AM

What a difference from the DI in The Thin Blue Line to be Mr Kipling. John Haig was astonishing good in both but his writing and acting in My son Jack was the best british acting I have witnessed for some considerable time. A thoroughly enjoyable and educating play.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:57 AM

"home rule for Ireland failed utterly to get any democratic support" That just wasn't accurate.
...................

The trouble is, because of the attiutude summed up in that line "take up our quarrel with the foe", that initial, naive enthusiasm for what was expected to be a short road to victory got parlayed into support for a protracted bloodbath.

The same process happened in other wars as well - typically in Vietnam and now in Iraq. And somethimg analogous happens in other situations, for example in the history of events that followed the initial Russian Revolution.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:48 PM

Will you accept
"Sinn Fein failed utterly to gain any democratic support for home rule, from 1905 until after the Easter rising" ?

Will you also accept that there was no popular support for that rising at the time, while hundreds of thousands of young Irish men had volunteered to fight for Britain?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

I don't think this is the thread for getting into that Keith. But "home rule for Ireland failed utterly to get any democratic support" was not correct. In most parts of Ireland opponents of home rule had long given up even standing for election, because they had about as much chance of getting returned as the Monster Raving Loony Party.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM

Keith,
I believe there are just causes - I am not sure about just wars.
Any civilised society holds human life to be important enough to make the unlawful taking of it the most serious crime on its legal statutes.
Therefore it is logical to assume that to take another person's life or to sacrifice ones own should be entirely the decision of each individual, and not left to politicians, unelected hierarchies, religious sects or interested group standing to profit from military conquests (or defeats - such is the cynical nature of the society we live in).
I am not a pacifist; I believe there are causes worth fighting and dying for, but I would not wish to impose my beliefs on any other individual. Nor would I wish to encourage them by anything other than open discussion, to take up arms in support of anything I believe.
My father fought in Spain in 1936 (against Franco), was seriously wounded and spent time in a Fascist prison. It was his decision to fight and he didn't volunteer because he was afraid of somebody handing him a white feather, or because he would be imprisoned, or even executed as a traitor if he refused.
If there is anybody out there who would like to put forward a moral justification for World War One, I would be fascinated to hear it.
So endeth today's rant.
....except to point out that it was the institutionalised brutality of the British that lost Ireland to the Empire - in case anybody hadn't noticed.
When the Easter Week Rebellion ended with the defeat of the rebels, as they left the GPO, had to be given military protection from the Dublin mob (mainly women), who demanded to know why they weren't 'supporting our lads in the trenches'.
Within months the situation had been completely reversed by the decision of the British Government to execute the leaders. One of the most potent and lasting images of the event is that of James Connolly, who was so badly wounded that he had to be strapped into a chair in order to be shot by the firing squad.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Mysha
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 04:02 PM

Hi,

Above, I mentioned (more or less):
"I must say that the search of the Kiplings for their son, followed by that final report, has the making of a folk song itself."

So I now created this thread for such a song I wrote. (I hope this is the correct way to connect threads, rather than being considered cross-posting.)
                                                                   Mysha


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: The Villan
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 06:40 AM

Somme 1

Somme 2


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:44 PM

Jim,
Your father was lucky to make it back.
My father's brother planned to go but was prevented by family pressure.
(and I too believe in learning songs before performing them)
You are right of course, that the harsh capital punishment meted out to the Easter rebels finally brought popular support for their cause.

I do believe that there was a moral justification for Britain and France to defend themselves from The Kaiser's armies, as did those who volunteered to fight.
Conscription did not come into force until 1916, and was never used in Ireland. The white feather campaign was not state instigated.
My grandfather was given one on his wedding day, 2nd June 1916 although he must have been in his naval uniform. It may have been the popular impression that the Navy had failed the nation at Jutland.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:38 PM

If it was the "institutionalised brutality" of the British that led to them executing the rebel leaders, what was it that led to the execution of prisoners by both sides in the Irish civil war?


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:42 PM

Leave it, Keith. Just accept that the Irish never did anything wrong and all the worlds' ills are the fault of the 'Bastard Brits' and you won't go far wrong on mudcat.

D.


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:54 PM

Stir, stir, stir...


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:29 AM

Keith,
I didn't believe we were too far apart in our opinions.
The brutality of The Irish (or all) civil wars was no different to that in WWI - the establishment exercising its authority and confirming its position.
In the end, all conflicts boil down to their objectives, and I have always believed that WWI was about markets and world supremacy, and like all such conflicts, those who made the supreme sacrifice were the ones who stood to gain least.
The execution of prisoners appears to be what happens in war - wasn't the glorious victory at Agincourt topped of by the massacre of 160 French prisoners at the command of Henry V. It happened in Spain too.
Dave; the Irish War of Independence was not about Bastard Brits and heroic Paddies, but of the right of the Irish to govern themselves. While this isn't an issue that keeps me awake at night, it remains the case and unless the situation of the North-Eastern counties is finally resolved, people will be dying over it long after we've shuffled off......
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Anyone watching My Son Jack?
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Feb 16 - 02:53 PM

When they were broadcast on US television, I viewed both The Lost Prince and My Son Jack, years ago.
The embarrassing thing is that it was only just now, reading this thread, that I saw the connection. One of the messages on this thread was kind enough to spell out that the King, talking about coming upon the body of his son at the end of My Son Jack, was speaking of The Lost Prince himself. So ignorant am I of English history that this had to be spelled out for me; when watching the actual programs, this went straight in one ear and out the other.   

Both programs were admirable and I recall both of them with gratitude.


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