BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society

Subject: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 10:53 PM

I have started this thread at Bobert's kind suggestion. Over in another thread, I revealed that I cannot escape my book learnin' as an anthropologist even while online and that I often find myself drawn into observing certain emerging patterns of behavior on Mudcat or other online communities. Academic indoctrination overtakes me and I find myself observing, documenting, categorizing and theorizing about online behavior here and elsewhere.


This came up in what was a light-hearted thread about the prospect of killing off a screen persona. Kill-joy that I am, I began to joke about and then relate the details of emergeing patterns of behavior in large internet communities that center around just that thing - the deliberate ruse of the death of a user's persona.

Here is a link to that thread so you can go and read my posts there:

Death of a Forum persona

In that thread I described the patterns that one tends to see online when a female user on a deal site decides to kill off her persona and re-emerge as a grieving family member of the dead persona. I described the motivations for engaging in such and act, the potential rewards and the potential downsides. I also described similar acts of sympathy-gathering that don't involve death but do invloce the tellong of a tale of escalating tragedy and woe.

I further described the roles various community members choose to assume in response to these sympathy-gathering actions, including the role of the Vampire "truthsayer from the darkside" who emerges as a vigilante keeper of the forum laws to punish the Sympathy-gathering behavior.

I described how such behavior tends to manifest here on mudcat and how it differs from large deal websites. I believe this has a lot to do with the large male presence here and the generally older demographic. Deal sites have a huge influx of young women from lower income backgrounds who join the sites to try and save some money. Mudcat on the otherhand draws people with different motivations - a desire to share an interest in an art form.

Rather than re-tread what I said in the other thread, I will leave it to others to bring some of those issues over here for discussion.

In the meantime, I will dedicate this thread to the discussion of observed ONLINE Mudcat behavior patterns and how those ONLINE behaviors may affect OFFLINE life for forum members, forum members' families and perhaps the world in general!

Behavior doesn't happen in a vaccum. It happens because there is something to be gained from behaving that way. The gain can be fore the individual, the community or both. Sometimes the gain that is sought is viewed as harmful or destructive by the community or a user or users who observe it.

Let's talk about patterns of behavior here. Who benefits from them, why we do various things, why we say certain things.

Let's explore how we interact as a community and how our interactions compare and contrast with other observed online communities. I believe Mudcat has avoided some of the nastier patterns I described in the other thread specifically because of our demographic make-up and our motivations for being here.

Here's where we hash out such theories. Bobert can go first. OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:37 PM

Why analyse when you're having fun? Mudcat just is.

Oh, and what do you mean by "deal" sites?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:40 PM

Interesting. This is the only on-line community I participate in. I will occasionally go onto a Dave's Garden forum, or one of the Organic Gardening forums seeking very specific plant or gardening info., but don't ever 'converse' on those sites, or even lurk. Didn't know there were coupon sites, much less that they include forums or message boards. So I have nothing to compare Mudcat to. My observation about the 'Cat is that it is really not much different than a 3-D community in terms of how people interact, alliances, etc.

Aside from demographics and motivation, keep in mind that a very significant minority of people who post with some frequency on the 'Cat also have met each other in 3-D. This seems particularly true of the posters in the geographically smaller UK where so many festivals and events are reachable by a reasonable day's drive, and Mudgathers appear to happen with some frequency. While we are more spread out in the USA and Canada, there are events like the Getaway that some attend year after year, regional music festivals where 'Catters seek each other out. In addition, if we are traveling on vacation, we are likely to give a shout to a Mudcatter we know lives in an area we will be visiting. Mudcatters in different countries both offer, and take advantage of offers, from 'Catters from abroad for room, board, a good visit and a song circle. And so the entire network has a stronger 3-D element to the community. If you come and visit me, and you also have a 3-D connection with another Mudcatter I have not met, tell me neat stories about your last visit with them, then they have a 3-D presence for me that they might not otherwise have.

I'm gonna guess these rather widespread real life encounters also influence our virtual community.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 13 Nov 07 - 11:47 PM

On second thought - what Kat said.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:35 AM

For one thing, you're analyzing something that is not really "behaviour". It is posting in a text box.

It is easy to take cyber-inter-actions entirely too seriously and grant them the weight and power of an order of reality they do not in fact have, much like the watchers in Plato's cave grant substance to the shadow forms on the wall.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:21 AM

I started the thread at Bobert's suggestion. I respectfully disagree with those who say that the way we interact with eachother here isn't behavior. If you watch any online community long enough, patterns emerge just like if you watch on offline society long enough patterns emerge. Those patterns can tell you a lot about the community and its members.

I have a professional academic interest in a few subjects that translate well to online communties, one of which is the difference between the way women communicate amongst themselves, the specific vocabulary, types of turn-taking speech, how much information is acknowledged and addressed by each successive turn-taker (poster), the specific number of unqiue pieces of information raised from post to post, how many posts can go by before a user re-states the information that was raised at the beginning and so on. This is similar to oral discourse analysis and may bore the hell out of all of you but I spent a lot of time at university studying these things - call me an egghead, I don't mind! The Internet is a new medium for discourse exchange.

I found the deal sites fascinating because they seemed to sort themselves out into distinctly female-only forums and co-ed forums where women were the majority.   It was through observing online language use that I noticed the pattern of sympathy-gathering and the online-bullying that grew up around it as societal correction. Once I started documenting these behaviors, comparing them across sites I began communicating with other academics with an interest in online expressions of aggression and bullying. We identified a number of unique behaviours and patterned responses. Male on male bullying certainly exists and can be easily observed in large film and media communities but less so in communities with a more balanced sex ratio.

For example, we do see some male on male bullying here on Mudcat but it doesn't seem to go anywhere or spill over into offline life the way it does on younger-skewed arts communities. This is of course, marvelous, and one of the reasons Mudcat is a pleasant place to be. I agree that there is a significant minority of "catters who have met or have met friends of those they interact with and this creates not just a strong bond and distaste for inter-personal nastiness, but an atmosphere that is pre-emptive against the kinds of agression that goes on so widely on other internet communities.

Like it or not, Online communication and relationships have replaced a large amount of the stranger interactions people would normally have if they could only gather with like-minded individuals outside their homes. Also, many people who would not ordinarily seek communication with others outside the home, find online communication enticing and so enter into social relationships without some of the people skills a more naturally social person would have. These things often lead to conflict in online communties and further lead to the development of social stategeies for handling said conflict. Moderators play a large role in handling this kind of conflict but the general membership's interactions and responses to conflict when it arises define individual communties.

I personally find Mudcat fascinating not so much for the beahvior that I DO see but for a lot of the behaviors I DON'T see.

Yes, we have lots of BS threads for arguing about religion, politics, issues and so on but that's not what I'm talking about when I mention conflict. Debates about those kinds of issues tend to fall into patterns of their own that don't differ much across the baord.

In typing about this, I would suggest that since the very nature of making music with people involves cooperation, give & take and generosity. Perhaps that is the unique social utlook that allows Mudcat to avoid some of the more unpleasant types of Internet interactions observed on so many other communities. I'd like to think that's it anyway!

I only began this thread because I made a long joke in the other thread about how the user in question could just pull one of the well-established Internet Death-Ruse scripts out thin air and use that to crate an entire new persona of his own widow.

Natural over-explainer that I am, I gave some examples of the Sympathy-gathering behaviors, of which, the Death-Ruse is the most famous. if that bores you all - sorry!

Give us a new topic to beat to death and I'll gladly give it a go! I can give you an example if you'd like:

Here on Mudcat, I've noticed that the reaction to frequently asked about songs doesn't coincide with FAQed topic responses on other similar communities. For example, on IMDB, people are rarely greeted with an "Asked before, answered before" response. That surprised me considering that most other film and media sites tend to greet frequently asked about subjects with derision. Gardening sites, Birding sites and other hobby/interest sites tend to greet frequently asked topic questions with patience and information, but only so much as is necessary.

Here on Mudcat, there is a mixed response, usually within the same thread! It isn't even the same people taking an "asked & answered before" approach.   Is this because there are some songs we just love hashing over again and again or are we simply more charitable as a whole? While we do see some older threads that have some huffiness towards students asking very general questions, those are quite rare responses.

I feel Mudcat is pretty unique in that the same basic lyrics or origin questions will be happily detailed in anywhere from 4 to 8 threads before people start simply linking to all the older threads. That's uncommon.

Reply if you wish. if not, I'll be over talking cat nonsense in the active kitty kat threads! Help me convince Bee not to call her new formerly feral kitten Snowball, but a more Cat-appropriate name such as Finnigan, Souser or Sir Fang the Ferocious! Anything but Snowball.....

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:45 AM

Whichever way you cut it, there are still people who take web sites too seriously, and are illogically affected by things that others post. In fact they go a long way toward confusing it with real life, their own in particular. So they behave on line accordingly.
The meeting one another more often thing the we Brits have over the US, isn't always an advantage, as other variables like physical appearance, and poor personal hygiene come into play.
They say that getting married is the best way to spoil a beautiful friendship, well the same can be true of over familiarity with ones cyber friends.
Remember the old joke, 'My wife and I were deliriously happy for 18 years; and then we met each other'

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:22 AM

I find these observations interesting, because there are patterns to communication, and in this case we have a new form of written communication which can be indulged in by geographically seperated people.

I've noticed, not so much on Mudcat, where we tend towards an older crowd, but on other large boards, there can be interactions between older and very young people that aren't really likely in real life. For example, on a very large religious forum I visit, you can see seventeen year old creationists arguing fiercely with fifty year old geologists about the nature of the Grand Canyon.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:54 AM

Grand Canyon? Wow. Like, deep, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:57 AM

Well, of COURSE they're arguing about the Grand Canyon in a religious forum! They SHOULD be arguing about the holey there!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:18 AM

Analyzing IS fun. Posting IS a behavior. I'm all for it, closet anthropologist that I am!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

While I understand the arguments for such a thread, I think some may hesitate to post freely mindful they may be being analysed. I mean no offence, DW, but it reminds me of the time I went to a movie with an anthropologist friend. She talked the whole way through and was unable to just sit and enjoy the movie; too busy analysing.

I also really did wonder what you meant by "deal" sites, as I am not familiar with that term.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:52 AM

Well, okay. Maybe I should reword my remark about behavior. Posting behaviors are communication behaviors, and of course they form patterns. And it is true they denote emotional interactions and even refer to incidents of actual force, socoial pressure, and such.

But the patterns of communication --especially in an abstract cyber-site -- are NOT mapped to the real universe of action, and the dynamics of motion, force, survival, and so on in any reliable way, certainly not in any one-to-one mapping scheme.

So you are talking about a very abstract level of relationship, containing no smells, no sweat, no hunger, and no fulfillment of real physical need, (except for the exchange of admiration which is very deepseated).

In spite of this, it iis true there are very real exchanges going on here, and a lot of feeling gets put into what is said. My remark above was intended simply to emphasize the real-world difference.

There is no specific gravity to a thread.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:11 AM

And another part of this: to engage in erecting an identity, finding the site, and exchanging messages, is a fairly abstract, sophisticated skill set. In order to even begin to acquire that skill set, you need to learn to use a keyboard, probably a mouse, understand pointing, and clicking. You have to (in order to do that) put a complex computing device in place, know enough to hook it up, and understand the rudiments of networking. Then you have to find some time in your real-day concerns to plug it all in, fire it up, log in and find a thread to post to.

Given all these departures from human nature, how can you characterize anything that happens on top of all that as "native" behaviours? It strikes me like trying to analyze the psychology of a bunch of Puccini dramatis personae, or like the gals in the hairdresser shops who have lengthy discussions on the psychology, emotions, and motives of completely fictitious characters in soap operas.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Peace
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

Once the anthropologist has 'entered' the study, the results become circumspect. Good luck with it, however.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: MMario
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:24 AM

Amos, Amos, Amos! Most people on the internet (I won't say here on the 'cat because we *know* we are a cut above average) do NOT setup their own computers, may not know how to login to it, have rudimentary keyboarding skills and most definately do not understand even the rudiments of networking.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:28 AM

"Native" is going to be a problem because no one was born here. "Behaviors" is going to be a problem because the only people available to respond to the questions are the people here now, who maynot have been here long enough to have their own,m indivuidual view of long-term trends, and who, if they were here for a long time, were immersed in the activity and not detached observers, and even if they WERE detached, they cannot and do not speak for the whole."Society" is going to be a problem because its active make-up changes every day.

The longer people have been here, the more I think they are likely to tell you this thread is not interesting, helpful, accurate, or relevant, and the less likely I thgink they will be to participate.

This leaves you with "now," with people who are foolish enough to think they can capture Mudcat, and that studying a community of which they are a part is fun and entertaining.

DW, let me ask you this-- if what I describe above were true of an island community to which you traveled for a study, would you conduct that study while a member of that group, and how?

Finally, and most obviously-- would you limit your population sample to the island's local bar habitues for all of your observations and interviews, or would you hope to be allowed into other venues? Because this is THE BS SECTION, and the whole purpose of this site is THE MUSIC SECTION. Lotsa folks who participate actively in that section never venture down here, quite intentionally.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bert
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM

...generally older demographic... I think yiu need to do a bit more studying Luv. Here you are supposed to say "You're a bunch of old farts" *GRIN*

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:53 AM

I'm failing to understand why some appear to oppose the relatively non-judgemental observation of a type of communication behaviour, a human interaction, yet all here are comfortable observing, dissecting and critiquing folk music and the people who perform it.

Susan, for all intents and purposes Mudcat, including both aspects, music and BS, is an island, and the people who imbibe are as much a part of the community as the tee-totallers up top, and are often the same, as on a real island, and of course there are visitors and leavers, as on a real island. Count me in as one of your 'foolish' people - anthropology can be at least as entertaining and revelatory as music, and I see no reason to go on as if it was a case of hauling the outhouse off its pit.

I think Dave's Wife means this to be entertaining, interesting, not some kind of clinical disapproving dissection of people's quirks and habits.

And Amos, any five year old can manage a computer and an internet connection nowadays, and any ten year old can find, join and participate in an online community (hopefully with parental oversight, but trust me, they can set it up their own little selves).

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:01 AM

I think there is one thing that differentiates Mudcat from other internet sites dedicated to common interests: Many Mudcatters have met others in person, many are firm friends in real life, attend the same clubs or festivals, and several have even married other Mudcatters! This is true not inly in the UK but also in the US and Australia. Events like the Getaways have even bridged the country and continent distances. And every time a Mudcatter visits another country, resident 'Catters are always ready with hospitality, introductions to events or even arranging gigs and house concerts.

Just as meeting someone puts emailing them on a different plane (much less likely to take offence at something one writes, for example), the same applies here. So you need to factor that in.

The other thing you need to consider is that many of the 'Catters come here not only for the common interest in folk music, but as a social circle, for the companionship and camaraderie, even though much of it is of course just "virtual". The BS section plays an important role there. Just like in any specialist café or bar, much of Mudcat talk is general. And that's fine by me and others, though I am sure it dies frustrate those who would rather all talk concentrated on folk or blues or whatever.

Most of all though you have to allow for the fact that the Mudcat accepts no "tall poppies". Though we have many whose expertise or knowledge or talent in a given area is second to none, this is not the forum for self-aggrandisement or overmuch advertising.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:06 AM

Susan, for all intents and purposes Mudcat, including both aspects, music and BS, is an island,

Yes, that's why I posited an island in my post inviting DW to think consider the scientific method as it would relate to the topic she has proposed; one problem with such a study that energes as soon as you try to think of it as a study is that it's a moving island with a constantly-changing population which is an overlapping subset of the site's intended target audience. And also-- just occurring to me now-- what behaviors of the lurkers can be studied? The statistics are not gatherable, but another BIG purpose of Mudcat is to make material available for people who may never post, and whose visits here are assumed to range from idle curiosity about a song they like, to serious music research.

IMO no reasonable study could be conducted under the research parameters available. It has nothing to do with outhouses-- I just think the whole concept is badly flawed in a number of respects serious antrhopologists would not ignore.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:07 AM

Anaylzing is first or second nature to my nature. Consequently, I find threads like this interested even if I don't post to them.

I think that the Mudcat community {or every subset [group]within this community or communities} could benefit from engaging in more meta analysis.

Here's one online definition of meta:
meta

    /me't*/ or /may't*/ or (Commonwealth) /mee't*/ A
   prefix meaning one level of description higher. If X is some
   concept then meta-X is data about, or processes operating on,
   X.

   For example, a metasyntax is syntax for specifying syntax,
   metalanguage is a language used to discuss language,
   meta-data is data about data, and meta-reasoning is
   reasoning about reasoning.

   This is difficult to explain briefly, but much hacker humour
   turns on deliberate confusion between meta-levels.

http://dict.die.net/meta/

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM

I should add that I think every individual and every group could benefit from more analysis about the ways they "live move, and have their being".

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM

I would consider the premise of this thread to be one of the more chilling aspects of induced self-censorship...plus we have some very brilliant people who can and have completely upset any academic apple carts about such data. In that, I could see some fun.:-)

Bee, the difference is the music section is meant to be more scholarly, therefore people may respond in a more serious fashion. Bandwidth used to also be very much of a consideration, so people did get shouted at for wasting it when they forgot/didn't know how to search for subjects already covered. Something some people continue to do.

One other thing which follows some of what Susan said, anyone who truly wants to study this would have to go back to the beginning and really look at the changes which have come about over the years. Some of them are profound and positive, others are profound and a detriment, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:34 AM

Now while I love you all and it may be true that as an oldtimer here I resist analysis and all that......I have to admit the truth of what Wyzzy said up there and say this now.....in the best possible light but with the sarcastic voice of the dimwit Italian-heritage male.

Grabbing my dick in my right hand and facing forward, left arm crooked back and hand pointing towards me,

"Hey.....I gotcher fockin' native analysis shit right here."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:36 AM

Well that stopped it getting too anal Spaw.
G ¦¬]

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:43 AM

Well, 'Spaw, I get your 'point', but frankly the same could be said for lots of the folk music analysis that's indulged in on Mudcat, like so:

"Hey.....I gotcher fockin' folk music analysis shit right here."

And I've certainly seen that very sentiment expressed in some of the 'what is folk and what isn't' threads.

I'm sayin', what's the fockin' difference, except that dave's Wife is an anthropologist and you or George P. are a musician.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: bobad
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:46 AM

That should put Mudcat's intellectual level ranking right into the toilet.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:57 AM

say what?

.....lol.......hard to believe..........

uh....yea....


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

analysing things is rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: MMario
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:00 PM

and if Rt Hon Sir jOhn from Hull says so, then it is so!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:26 PM

That's not all he is, Bee. He and several others have to pay more for their coffee due to their Pee-Aitch-Dees!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 12:34 PM

I think the behaviors Dave'sWife describes are typical of individuals who've had considerable exposure to role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. To them, the Internet is a super-sized gaming place where anonymity allows them to push the role-playing concept to extremes.

I don't believe the typical Mudcatter is prone to those behaviors because most of us have not spent hours and hours actively pretending to be someone else. We don't easily make the shift from real self to persona.

Oh, there have been a few infamous role players around here, but for most of us the face we show on the Mudcat is the same one we wear every day. That doesn't necessarily mean we're more mature than our role-playing younger-generational counterparts, only that we tend to express our immaturity in different ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:01 PM

Kat, I mighta guessed that. ;-D

Bee-Dubya, I don't think Dave's Wife is in any way saying the same exact behaviours are found on Mudcat. She's just interested in a lighthearted examination of broadly defined behaviours that are found on Mudcat.

Also, the behaviours she described as occurring on the 'Deal' forums are not likely a product of role-playing games, because the forums involved catered mostly to women, who are far less likely to have bothered with rpgs, though of course, some do. I did, but that was pre-internet and you were face to face with all the other players.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:08 PM

Oh, my....there is SUCH a wide disparity in how various individuals treat this forum, and thus act and RE-act in it.

Our old friend ex-compatriot Clinton Hammond used to say "none of this is real", and thus freed himself to be as abusive or critical as he wished, while others 'see' every post as a real person they need to come to terms with.
Some post in an abstract, neutral way simply to give & get information, and couldn't care less what kind of person asnwers them, while others "wear their persona on their sleeves" and have large portions of their emotional being invested in the 'relationships' they form here.
   Some regularly keep us informed of their RT life and all its ups & downs, while, with others, we never know much about what their everyday lives are about.
   I think there are probably several Phd theses waiting for psychologists and anthropologists who want to analyze 11 years of this strange CatBox and track its persona thru all the paths......just following the various forms of humor could fill several chapters of a book.

This place IS a community, just as much as the houses and people in your town or neighborhead....except that certain rules and behavior patterns are obviously affected by the medium.
   Humans are perhaps 35,000 years old, with written language for 6000? or so...but we are barely out of the virtual Stone Age in figuring out how to relate to one another in forums like this...and other forms of online communication. When we had to write letters to engage in "flame wars", it affected what was said, and was usually better thought out than 'instant replies' we contend with now.

....for me, this medium allows me to learn more about myself as I write, refine and respond....but I will NOT be sharing whether I had a fight with my wife or am depressed about the illness of a relative. Well...*smile*...maybe in a few PMs. Fun, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:09 PM

Spaw,

Hm, maybe next time I opine so carefully and thoughtfully I'll just grab your dick first, and wave it, and see how that affects/improves my point.

:~)

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:19 PM

give me advance warning....I want pictures!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 01:24 PM

Hmm... Cat abuse?

Anyway, I was commenting the other day that the MOAB alone could provide enough rich vectors to provide several PhD theses (did I spell that right?).


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:27 PM

Sorry, Bee, I should have said a higher price for a cup of coffee at McDonald's, or so he claims.:-)

Bill's right. There are years and years worth of study, not just the humour, but the way the story threads came about and the characters created, etc. It's been fascinating, but, again, not my cup o'tea to analyse it.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 02:37 PM

Coming soon to a theater near you! "Shane Meets Cletus & the Reg Boys and invite .gargoyle & Lady Penelope to Dinner"

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:31 PM

This is interesting enough, to me. (Interesting enough that I just read the whole thread up to here.) I neither condemn nor endorse efforts to figure out what the hell is really going on here. After all, I'm never quite sure myself.

Besides real-life meetings in addition to forum interaction, we also have another avenue for communication, specifically one-to-one, in the form of PMs (personal messages). I know Dave's Wife is aware of this, since she and I recently traded a couple of PMs regarding the area of Ireland where both my family and her husband's (i.e., Dave's, I guess) come from.

Whatever a "deal site" is*, I wonder whether they offer the same PM mechanism that Mudcat does. Certainly, this would be a factor in analyzing interaction, etc. (Of course, PMS are essentially private and their contents would not be available to a researcher ~ except that, as a participant, said researcher would have access to his/her own off-forum messages).

* (I suppose that if I were to read through that entire other thread, I might learn more. Haven't done so, though, not yet anyway.)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 03:46 PM

Catspaw, I gotch your swinging dick native analysis, swingin.      I i don't know what it means either, but I love you all

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:11 PM

Can't we all just get along little doggy?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:25 PM

Little Hawk has a head start

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 04:33 PM

aw geez Bill, that one was really bad.....and quick as well.....LOL....In the best traditions of Mudcat, such as they are, and Art Thieme, whatever he is!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

You still have to use the tripod, Spaw?

Ready, set, aim!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

This thread is a study in itself: it's almost Mudcat in a microcosm... intellectual curiosity; insider resistance to inquiry out of the "norm"; rampant scatalogical rowdiness...

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: gnu
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:37 PM

Tripod? Big doggy?

Doc told me not to lift anything over ten pounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

He has to be careful, gnu, when he takes aim over the bridge, that it does not get all muddy (and that's a mighty ^high bridge!)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:48 PM

(\Delta x)(\Delta p_x) \geq \hbar/2

    (\Delta y)(\Delta p_y) \geq \hbar/2

    (\Delta z)(\Delta p_z) \geq \hbar/2

Ergo, any analysis would be futile. You can do some, but you cannot do all.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 07:51 PM

Yep..... I use the Dorkus Super Roller 5000, the only way to "go." So when I encounter a bridge only 25 feet above the water and a river 18 feet deep, I can let fly and stop the reel so as to keep the tip out of that muddy bottom. AND......The Auto-Retrieve feature makes shaking it a breeze!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM

Hmmm the real problem (I found out this "summer") is a river some 4 foot higher than the bridge!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:25 PM

Can't we all just get a long little doggy?

Daschunds apart, I don't mind any position!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

BTW, Spaw, were you referring to the "Folk singers with longest career" thread?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Tweed
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM

Where's khandu when you need him.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:37 PM

You mean we khantdu without him?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

Armed rebellion and overthrow of the monarchy was the only answer, Tweed.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:50 PM

You guys should differentiate between getting a long, little, doggy, like Little Hawk, and gittin' along, little dogie, as in round up.

I think we should try the experiment of applying RoundUp to Little Hawk's long doggy just to see what expires.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:55 PM

is that Round up ?
Sounds a little painful........

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 08:59 PM

Out here in The REAL West, we have dachshund roundups both Spring and Fall. All the neighbors get together and help each other with the ropin', brandin', inoculatin', and cuttin'. Then them long little doggies are sent along with the little dogies to where ever long little doggies and little dogies are sent along to.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:10 PM

Ahhhhhh, sorry to be late to the party... Did I miss anything???

Nevernmind that, I always miss somethin'... Missin' stuff is like freedom 'cause then you ain't respnsible for keepin' track of it...

Hey, Dave's Wife, ahhhhhh, don't listen to me when I suggest that you do this 'er that... Jus' get you into trouble... I got a PHD on trouble here in Mudville... With the exception of about handfull of folks I have been in trouble with everyone else at least once... That's a lot of folks that I have rubbed wrong, then had to go back and do the "dance of the dieing duck" (D of the DD, for short)... I mean, I've had to do the D of the DD so othen here that Fred Astaire would be proud...

Now as fir studies??? Hmmmmmm??? I weren't much good at studyin' so I purdy much keep away from them... I didn't know I was fonna be called on 'er I would have studied more, if only I knew what I was studin' for.... Excuse the prepositon at the end of the sentence, if it was a sentence 'cause I know that academics ain't much ito ending 'em with preps....

Lastly, what the heck do I know about anthropologym anyway??? Nuthin', that's what... I weren't required back in my college days... Biology was and it sucked... Biology was used to flunk kids out... Weed out the real dummies... I got a D... Barely...

That's my story... Sorry I ain't much help... There's a lot more brainier (is that a word???)folks scratching 'round here in the Catbox than me...

All I did was say that I liked the way you wrote, Dave's Wife, but I also said I didn't have a clue what you were talkin' about... That much still stands...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:15 PM

This thread is a study in itself: it's almost Mudcat in a microcosm... intellectual curiosity; insider resistance to inquiry out of the "norm"; rampant scatalogical rowdiness...
~ Becky in Tucson


I agree with what Becky said. I would also include witty plays on words {for instance, Foolestroupe's post "You mean we khantdu without him?"}.

I like that kind of wit. However, I'm wondering why it is that those who are opposed to an analytical discussion of the ways that Mudcat posters in general interact on the public forum wouldn't just disregard this thread and leave it to those who were/are serious about such a discussion. I'm curious why folks would do this.

Regardless of the reasons why posters decided to railroad this subject, to paraphrase Becky's comment, the way this thread has developed shows how some folks communicate when they don't like what some other folks want to talk about.

I think that's too bad {with "bad" here meaning "not good"}.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:22 PM

Well, I love how a few people feel they must judge WHY anyone posted negatively about the idea of a study, but let's go back to the first post:

Let's talk about patterns of behavior here. Who benefits from them, why we do various things, why we say certain things.

Let's explore how we interact as a community and how our interactions compare and contrast with other observed online communities.

And to this I would respond, "Let's not, for the reasons I've stated-- it just isn't practical."


Now, if other people want to go ahead and construct or participate in a quasi-study, go for it, but I just think it's not feasible.

So, "let's not."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:26 PM

Well, Mizzy, the only reason that I responded is 'cause Dave's Wife kinda put me on the spot in her opening post... I din't even know this thread had anything to do with anything I had said anywhere... I thought it was like, ahhhhhh, National Geographic, 'er the Discover channel so I opened it to see what it was about and there was my name right there in print...

So I figured that I oughtta do the gentlemanly thing and that was post a disclaimer, which I did...

(Don't say stuff like that, Bobert... It's gonna end up in some science journal...)

Why???

See, I told you that I don't have a clue... Plus I don't read science journals...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 09:43 PM

I think, as I said earlier, Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applies here. As in any active system, you can study one aspect of it or another (for instance, position OR velocity of a particle) but not both at the same time. You might approximate, but you will never know simply because the thing studied is always in flux.

And Bobert, I happen to know that you got a "D" in biology when you should have gotten an "A" because you started flinging parts of dissected earthworms at other members of the class and thereby started a "worm fight." The only reason you got a "D" was because they couldn't prove conclusively it was you that started it.

And remember what Winston Churchill said when criticized about ending a sentence with a preposition: "That's the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put."

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:29 PM

Well, one reason is that the threads are chockablock full of people analyzing why they are doing and what they are doing it with. So in a sense the resistance here is against getting into a self-referential loop, known in some circles as "analysis paralysis".

There is a point in self-examination where the abstract polunges into the ridiculous. I am reminded of the old saw:

"There once was a fairy named Broom
Took a Lesbian up to his room;
But they argued all night
About who had the right
To do what, and with which, and to whom."


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:53 PM

Rapaire, we've got a different kinda dogie in Wyomin':

ya ever heard the one about the wild poodle herds of Wyomin'? Saw one m'self, I did, one dark and lonely night out on the highway to ShyAnne. Took me complete by surprise. Remind me ta tell it one o'these days; it's jist one more instanz of Wyomin' being ahead and in the runnin' fer finding new species on this here ole ball wax we call home.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:54 PM

Azizi,

Your "meta" is good as far as it goes. But Will Rogers said it best.

"I never meta phor I didn't like!"

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Art Thieme
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 10:56 PM

Kat,

Nice that we came together!!! Was it good for you???
Art

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 11:03 PM

Mighty Fine...Art!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:05 AM

Well there ya' go......Just like I said, "Art Thieme, whatever he is," and as you can see, there ain't no tellin' what he is......and damn little seein' for that matter.....Not that you'd want to of course.............ya' know?

AND NOW,ZIZ......You said:

"......I'm wondering why it is that those who are opposed to an analytical discussion of the ways that Mudcat posters in general interact on the public forum wouldn't just disregard this thread and leave it to those who were/are serious about such a discussion. I'm curious why folks would do this."
Okay......Why? Because I can. I make fun of, joke about, ridicule, whatever, damn near everything just for the hell of it. I do this in 3D as well. In 3D you can better show the actual tone and intent and for awhile around here you could do the same. At first everyone misunderstood, then we all got to know each other pretty well and knew the nuances. Except for gnu who never knew. That time though was pretty short as the growth made it next to impossible to communicate the real thing. So at times it seems cliquish with insider jokes but again let me ask.....Why does this affect the other discussion? You say I should disregard the thread.....Why not just disregard me? Many happily do!!!(;<))

"Regardless of the reasons why posters decided to railroad this subject, to paraphrase Becky's comment, the way this thread has developed shows how some folks communicate when they don't like what some other folks want to talk about."
Long ago there was an understanding that the Music threads were to be left alone and those of us around then agreed to it. The Bull Shit on the other hand was wide open.......post whatever but don't bitch about it and don't dis The 'Cat which provides the Litter Box. Its BS.....just BS.....period. This is still first a Music Site......the BS is Bull Shit!

"I think that's too bad {with "bad" here meaning "not good"}."
Sorry you feel that way ....... I don't though ....... We disagree....I still like you and hope you like me. But the joint is what it is.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:19 AM

DW,   I suggest you recognize that anthropology utilizes sociology and group psychology, but is not the same as either, and that your invitation for group self analysis, however humorously and well-intended, is entirely inappropriate from an anthropological perspective.    The anthropologist or sociologist may adopt the role of observer, or of participant-observer. They may query individuals in the culture or community they are studying, and observe whatever self-analysis may occur, but they do not overtly invite self-analysis of the nature or with the specificity you have asked. Deliberate and specific self-analysis by the individual or the group is firmly in the realm of psychology. The observation and study of the process of self-analysis by the group is anthropological and/or sociological. The attempt to discern how the function of behaviors of individuals within the group serves to sustain or disrupt the culture are within the realm of anthropology and/or sociology. But you are more than a participant-observer in the context of this particular group, and you have violated a boundary. A participant-observer participates as a means to observe, and does one's best to struggle with the effects of the dual role, ever mindful that the primary function is the academic function of observation, while trying to account for and acknowledge that the role of participant influences observations and outcomes.



There is a lot of skillful resistance occurring in this thread, as Azizi and Bee, in particular, have noticed. I suggest that much of that resistance is normal and expectable response/reaction to DW's unintended boundary violations. My intent is not to be confrontational. But DW, you have strongly implied that you are either participating in academic research, or are providing information and observations to other anthropologists who may use your input in academic research. You have an obligation to tell them that you have communicated with this particular group in a manner that may strongly influence this group's reaction.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:24 AM

Or....what 'spaw said.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:43 AM

A couple of folks reactions have been very interesting, and by that I meant those who have brought in the insider/outsider theory.
Now I know there is a conspiracy theory at large that Mudcat is composed of cliques, but I see this as merely paranoia on the part of those who feel excluded. Not that there is anything to be excluded from really, what they have to realise is that in many cases they are coming into an ongoing conversation that's been in progress for many years.
It is that, conflict between the easy going members and the control freaks, that is worthy of anthropological analysis surely?
Don't forget the conspiracy theorists either ¦¬]

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:05 AM

I've always been interested in studying the processes of studying the processes of studying the processes of studying the processes of studying the processes of studying the processes of studying the processes of ...

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:00 AM

Somebody help that Fool with the broken processor!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:50 AM

Janie, why do you suppose Azizi and I, among others, don't think a boundary is being crossed? Azizi's been here a long time, I've been here for a year. Perhaps you think we are not astute enough or educated enough to understand the basic parameters of anthropological analysis?

Why do you think it is all right to analyze folk musicians (and many 'Catters are folk musicians) and folk music but not to analyze our own group posting behaviours?

Most of us, as self interested amateurs, observe the posting behaviours and interactions of others, and reach our own conclusions, and modify our posting responses as a result. (Examples: I don't post in threads where a particular person posts, because there is a full on clash of beliefs that inevitably would lead to unpleasantness. I look forward to some posters' threads because they are intelligent, amusing, or provocative. Dave's Wife brings a professional's understanding to something we already engage in, more or less automatically, and I am as interested in her thoughts as I am interested in the thoughts of someone who is a professional folk music researcher.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:56 AM

To address, in small part, the idea of resistance to analysis:

By and large, Mudcatters are an educated bunch. I know of several with graduate degrees (some more than one) and several who hold doctorates. Many are polyglottal, all or almost all are well-traveled and well-read.    Those without formal academic qualifications compensate with extensive life experiences. It is difficult to get people of this type to hold still for examination if they don't want to -- they know how to wiggle away, a technique perfected by years of practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: MMario
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:07 AM

and/or have much experience in dissembling

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:15 AM

I've disassembled all sorts of stuff. I've even been able to put some of it back together sometimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:01 AM

Rap, that's true, but it's also true that some of us just prefer not to have Mudcat become like our real lives, because we come here for a break from all that.


Bee, no one has said what you are or are not aware of or capable of. Those of us posting here who are not enthralled by this idea have been here for what I think of as "a long time," and perhaps it seems to you like Azizi has been here "a long time," but to this oldtimer she seems like a recent arrival. Just as I am sure I seem more like a new arrival than an oldtimer, to those who got here before I did.


A certain amount of umbrage seems to have been assigned to those of us not enthralled. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET, but it's up to the individual what you choose to see, and how you choose to take it.


DW, if you thought Bobert told you to jump off a roof-- would you? I suggest the posts of other professional practitioners at Mudcat as a possible model-- who are often thoughtful about not trying to practice their professions here but who offer, instead of specifics, general principles from their professions.


~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

Posit posit posit Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:05 AM

On the other hand perhaps we should confess that the REAL reason we post here in the odd loopy way that we do is because of our mothers (for the boys), our fathers (for the girls) or our carburetors (for Spaw).

Giok is a special case, motivated by a suppressed appetite for haggis.

Janie, now, posts as she does to compensate for peanuts-and-Coke envy instilled by visiting cousins from Georgia at a tender age. Rapaire is acting out his fantasy of having the biggest Dewey Decimal System on the planet. (Dewey? I'll say we do!).

Perhaps this will help clear the air.

On the other hand it is possible that group self-analysis is, in essence, a projection of single-viewpoint narcissism, and unlikely to gain traction for any given individual, other than the projector; and hence, neither profitable in understanding nor entertaining in insight or humor.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:07 AM

"if you thought Bobert told you to jump off a roof-- would you? "

Well, not a FIFTH time!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:09 AM

I don't know, Bee. It would be very surprising if every individual in the group reacted identically.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:10 AM

My Name is John MacKenzie, and I am a haggis addict.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

Takes lots of guts to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:13 AM

A lot more to eat the crap...........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:20 AM

It is easy enough to find out how long some one has been a member. Go to Quick Links, use the drop down menu and scroll down to "Old Adv. Forum Search" then press GO. Put their name in the user box and follow from there.

Considering Mudcat has been around since 1996, I don't consider someone who's been here three years to have been here for a long time; and,just as Susan said, some folks who were here at the beginning, may still think of me as a newcomer.

Janie, well said...yer degree is showing, darlin'.:-)

Spaw, thanks Peachy Philosopher!

DW, have you talked Bee outta Snowball, yet?:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:32 AM

I have re-read the whole thread, and it is a delightful potpurri of thoughts of all kinds -- direct, indirect, metaphorical, humorous, and rowdy.

Thanks to D's W for starting it. A very interesting thread, less for what it says than for what it is. Hmmmm.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

Amos - surely you meant moonpies and an RC pop!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:35 AM

Don't taze me there bro

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:36 AM

Kat, you... you.... newbie!

Nope, jes' don't seem right! :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 10:49 AM

Regarding your fake death story to observe care giver behavior.

Another reason you did it is because its sort of like attending your own funeral.

What would they say (behind my back)
Then you come back and say Ahaa, you said or didn't say X.


sort of an ultimate gotcha behavior don't you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:37 AM

Quote: "Bee, no one has said what you are or are not aware of or capable of. Those of us posting here who are not enthralled by this idea have been here for what I think of as "a long time," and perhaps it seems to you like Azizi has been here "a long time," but to this oldtimer she seems like a recent arrival. Just as I am sure I seem more like a new arrival than an oldtimer, to those who got here before I did.


A certain amount of umbrage seems to have been assigned to those of us not enthralled. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GET, but it's up to the individual what you choose to see, and how you choose to take it.


DW, if you thought Bobert told you to jump off a roof-- would you? I suggest the posts of other professional practitioners at Mudcat as a possible model-- who are often thoughtful about not trying to practice their professions here but who offer, instead of specifics, general principles from their professions." - WYSIWYG

First of all, I'm not really liking this line of 'Old Boys and Girls' versus people who've only been here one or two or three years. In fact, I find it a little offensive. If you can't claim to have understood to some degree the inherent culture of a self-chosen forum after a year of posting, then your powers of observation must be severely limited, IMO.

Frankly, I'm seeing more 'umbrage' being aimed at those of us who think the OP has an interesting proposal, to the point of some even questioning DW's professional ethics, which I think is a really over the top and unfair response.

I have seen some of your 'professional practitioners' here being extremely explicit in their professional pronouncements on specific individual folk musicians and even on specific songs that individuals have written.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 11:47 AM

No one has said it's a "versus" issue, Bee, and I donpt feel it as one myself; I feel it as a gap, perhaps, but not an adversarial situation. You've also replied to a number of points that had been addressed to someone else. Perhaps you're not feeling terribly objective.

BTW, re: the "professionals" part of my post-- what I had in mind were the doctors and lawyers who don't doctor or lawyer here, but have given general info in threads about medical and legal issues, and the social worker/psychotherapist who doesn't treat people here but who has, from time to time, stated general principles. I don;t even know what you're referring to, but I apologize for not staing my point more clearly.

Sheeshe!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:07 PM

Obviously, what needs to be done is to apply the Phenomenological "Eidetic Reduction" to this study....



"Method: Bracket all incidental meaning and ask: what are some of the possible invariate aspects of this experience?"

"The research process involves reflective inquiry into "concealed" meaning while reconciling universality and particularity by holding them in tension. The researcher asks: What makes this experience uniquely different from other related experiences? In the eidetic reduction one needs to see past or through the particularity of lived experience toward the iconic universal, essence or eidos that lies on the other side of the concreteness of lived meaning. The idea of phenomenological essence or eidos does not refer to some immutable universal or generalization about human nature of human life. This would be committing the fallacy of essentialism."


more here!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

IRRITATION

Everything that irritates us about others can
lead us to an understanding of ourselves.

      C.G. Jung (1875-1961) Swiss psychologist

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:20 PM

In oysters irritation can lead to pearls, but it doesn't work that way with human beings.

Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM

You just said that to get the 100th post, Giok. Don't pretend! :D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:27 PM

My name isn't Leadfingers, and I honestly didn't notice as I was responding from the 'Messages since last visit' page.
But; WELL DONE ME, YAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYY !

G.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:46 PM

One of the behaviors I find interesting here is the effort to bully. Why, I've even done it myself. We have a spectrum of efforts, ranging from the blunt testosterone-mad guttersniping of Martin Gibson to the slimy guerilla-style whining of a few like TTCM (if you don't remember that little episode you haven't missed anything) or the vicious sardonics of the Gargoyle at his worst.

Then there's the puffed up emotional opinionating of a certain kind of feminist which is just as manipulative, but couched in flower-print sewing-club lingo. It has a kind of stickiness to it which sucks you in as you read it, by well-chosen phrases, and leaves you somewhere you never expected to go.

There are several variants on the "passive-aggressive bully" flow which blend blame, guilt, regret, social pushbuttons and some custom bits to reduce the recipient to mindless acquiescence to some position or other. There's a whole array of them.

In engaging even in this superficial analysis, though, I feel a little bit like a combat veteran who has been sidelined into instructing recruits in the techniques of combat. It really doesn't mean much until you have been through the live-fire version.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 12:59 PM

Good link, Bill. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 01:09 PM

Method: Bracket all incidental meaning and ask: what are some of the possible invariate aspects of this experience

WIth all due respect, my instinctive reaction is that I would have to be three sheets to the wind, or sixteen feet out of me puir head, to even pose such a question. Confusing meaning with experience, to start with, is like drinking Drano, cognitively. Labels (imposed meaning) and experience (raw perception) are two different neighborhoods altogether.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:04 PM

On second thought, I take that back; I had failed to penetrate the impenetrable far enough (as the bishop said to the actress) to realize that the question might mean "What is the actual experience behind the variable meaning I may have imposed on it?". In which case, it is a very sensible question, but I sure as hell would never have posed it in such an abstruse form.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:23 PM

YOU, my dear sir, erudite as you may be, have never, I assume, trafficked wallowed in the more arcane aspects of Phenomenological illumination of conciousness.

Fie!I say!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 02:31 PM

You guys talkin' English?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM

Nope...that there 'Philosophy' stuff.

(I was educated once, and it's taking forever to get over it!)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:10 PM

I propose that this entire thread be subjected to the linguistic tool called "treeing." Or Turing. Or both.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:20 PM

My tool has often been referred to as a tree and the bark gets a lot of compliments.

I too was victimized by education but most feel I have overcome it all too well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:23 PM

Nope. If you had, Spaw, you would have said "all too good!"

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:29 PM

Its tough to shake kat......uh, the education, not the tool. Actually, shaking both would be a pleasure.......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:34 PM

gives a whole new perspective to "John Henry"

"John Henry said to his shaker,
"Shaker, you'd better pray"

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:42 PM

'Cuz if my thirty-yard wanger jumps that Dorkus Roller,
Tomorrow gonna be yer buryin' day....Lord, lord.
Tomorrow gonna be yer buryin' day....


I once heard tell of a man who went to our Wild Animal Park for an outing through the hinterlands in an open truck. Great fun, you get up close to rhinos, giraffes and such. This one guy, unfortunately, failed to duck when a giraffe looking for snacks lowered its huge head over the truck-bed. The sixty-pound head swingng at the end of that muscualr twenty-yard neck caught the back of his skull and flipped him right out of the truck and gave him a serious concussion.

I imagine this would be something like that...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:48 PM

Amos and Bill...........

APPLAUSE--LMAO!!!

Geeziz......Why the hell would anyone want to analyze this place?   I mean really.....What could possibly be learned?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:54 PM

Actually, I thought this thread was about getting naked, smearing yourself with mud, and jumping around beating a drum and going "falalalalooo".

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 03:55 PM

Spaw demonstrated conclusively that he passes the treeing test. About the Turing test, the jury is still out: could he fool someone into believing he is really a human being? ;>)

I have seen him wax human many times over the years here, so my money's on Spaw.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:10 PM

Further investigation into Bill D's spittly "Fie" remark, I find th eeidetic approach document also states:

"The eidetic reduction differs from concept analysis in that the reduction does not claim to clarify linguistically the boundaries of a phenomenon or how a concept is being used in different contexts. Rather, the reduction attempts to offer iconic images of the phenomenon --intimations of meaningfulness. The eidetic reduction asks: Does this piece of text bring the experience into view? Does this phrase resonate with our prereflective sensibilities? Are these portrayals of lived meaning recognizable? Do they evoke something unique about this human experience?

So the eidetic reduction is not a simplification, fixation, or contraction of the world into a system of fully resolved concepts --rather it is the exact opposite: the eidetic reduction makes the world appear as it precedes every cognitive construction: in its full ambiguity, irreducibility, contingency, mystery, and ultimate indeterminacy...".

And I think I shall retreat to my original response about being three sheets to the wind. I just do not believe there is any excuse for talking like that in public...he sounds like a Prussian alchemist fresh out of Heidelberg.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:33 PM

Heidelburg?? Mensur! Mensur!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:40 PM

Modern academic fencing, the "Mensur," is neither a duel nor a sport. It is a traditional way of training and educating character and personality, thus, in a Mensur bout, there is neither winner nor loser.

The participants, or Paukanten, use specially-developed swords. The so-called Mensurschläger (or simply Schläger; the plural form is identical to the singular form), exist in two versions. The most common weapon is the "Korbschläger" with a basket-type hilt (German Korb or "basket"). In some universities in the eastern part of Germany, the so-called "Glockenschläger" is in use which is equipped with a bell-shaped hilt (German Glocke or "bell"). These universities are Leipzig, Berlin, Greifswald, Dresden, Tharandt (in the Forestry College which is now part of Technische Universität Dresden), Halle on the Saale, Frankfurt/Oder, and Freiberg. In Jena both "Korbschläger" and "Glockenschläger" are used. Studentenverbindungen from some western cities use "Glockenschläger" because their tradition had its origin in one of the eastern universities but moved to Western Germany after WW II.

At the rise of the tradition, duellists wore only their normal clothing (as duels sometimes would arise spontaneously) or light cloth armor on arm, torso, and throat. Fencers are, in recent years, protected by a chain mail shirt, chain mail gauntlets, padding on the throat and right arm, and steel goggles with a nose guard. They fence at arm's length and stand more or less in one place, while attempting to hit the unprotected areas of their opponent's face and head. Flinching or dodging is not allowed; the goal being less to avoid injury than to endure it stoically. A doctor is generally present to attend to injuries and stop the fight if necessary.

(Wikipedia)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM

there will be a pause in the proceedings while I giggle and contemplate the meaning of it all.












*giggle*















Hmmm...it seems there IS little meaning beyond the metaphorical vicissitudes of gratuitous personal applications of linguistic construction....if you catch my drift.

carry on

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:03 PM

the bark gets a lot of compliments

Is the bite.... worse?!?!?!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:12 PM

"Is the bite.... worse?!?!?!"

Well, its not something I would personally relish...and I don't want any damned relish on it either! The bark simply gets compliments on its French Tickler Effect.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:16 PM

Is it like a peanut Spaw?





















































































Salty !

G

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:17 PM

The History channel spent the whole DAY convering cannibalism. Oprah covered compulsive hoarding. I couldn;t decide which self-assessment test to take so I came HERE. But we are having BBQ pork san here for dindin from a huge batch I made for the freezer.... and is that cannibalism, please, or hoarding?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:18 PM

Giok, PS from the self-assessment: Sometimes I feel like a nut. Sometimes I don't.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

Wonder where all the Analysts went????

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:23 PM

Cannibal murderers should get light sentences because they aren't wasteful.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:27 PM

Just a regular anthropophogi.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:29 PM

Ever get the feeling you are inside the fishbowl? O O
                                                             ^

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

Who?

Me?

Paranoid?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:10 PM

Dave's Wife,

My deepest apologies...

Can't take these people out in puiblic and studyin' 'um is a guarenteed trip to the medicine cabinet fir the extra strenght Tynelol...

Please don't hold this against me...

But keep writin' that cool stuff an' I'll keerp readin' it even if I don't have a clue what it's about...

Okay???

Bobert

p.s. BTW, like Bill I was once educated but I have purdy much gotten over it...

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:13 PM

Sometimes I feel I am the fishbowl. Is that so wrong?   ;>)



A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

As in...transparent?

Or as in, covered with algae with snails crawling up and down?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:15 PM

Where are the analysts? I dunno, but maybe I can be a stunt-double? (How anal would I have to be, to be considered a true analyst?)

I am on the brown path now.

*BCG*

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM

I'm my own body double. In fact, I'd like a double. Neat. Thanks.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:19 PM

As in the observer at one with the thing observed, of course! :D Like the Buddhist lama who came across a vendor selling hot dogs on the west side of Central Park, and gave him a five, saying, "Make me one with everything!".

So the vendor made him one with everything. The monk then asked, "Thanks, but where's my change?"

The vendor replied, "All change comes from within."


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:19 PM

I just read this thread- Good grief, Charley Brown!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:28 PM

Psst-- a certain Mudcat-associate had a REALLY great way (I just heard it last night), of handling requests. "Sure, wouldja jot that down on the back of a 20 and pass it on up here."

~Grasshopper have much to learn

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

Perfect example why nothing serious or close to the heart will ever be successfully discussed at Mudcat again. People who are willing to sabotage threads by posting stupid shit in quantity will be too uncomfortable to let the threads continue. They don't have anything to say about the actual subject, but they have to let their egos run free to trample smaller but significant contributions.

Of course, this is probably exactly the sort of predictable behavior Dave's Wife was talking about, so even the inane diversionary stuff is ironically on topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

Susan, that last bit was low and a gross generalisation.

Dave's Wife, this thread is a classic example of the impossibility of herding cats.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM

Amos, I know a Buddhist llama.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:43 PM

Is that a confession, Rapaire?

Jeri: I think you will find there have been a few serious sections to this thread. I straddle the division between being somewhat interested in the patterns DW was asking about, and in the impulse to resist analysis of something that seems to me to be working fine without. But one thing I think would not be well-advised and that would be getting overly serious about behavioral analysis. That would, IMHO, guarantee a failure of analysis.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:23 PM

Amos,

The fishbowl itself is nonobservant. It can allow light to pass through, and it can reflect light.   It does not, however, 'see' anything. The fishbowl also acts as a lens and therefore always distorts, in some manner, what the observer sees, whether the observer is inside of the fishbowl, or outside of the fishbowl. It is very useful to switch places with some frequency. That is our best bet for identifying the distortions inherent in either perspective.

'Course, now we have Rapaire seeing doubles.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:24 PM

Methinks it might stay a wee bit more to the subject if Dave's Wife stayed near and discussed it all some more.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM

I've seen what happens to threads that begin..."All Norwegians are poop-heads...Discuss"

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:39 PM

Janie, there is actually a type of quartz crystal which does reflect a double image when held over something, such as text. Wouldn't it be something to have a fishbowl made of that?!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:42 PM

Generally, of course, you are perfectly right about fishbowls, dear Janie. But when one transcends localized categorical states of beingness, one can become one with and Be the fishbowl, the fish, and the watcher-of-fish all in one swoop of tingly multi-viewpointed-ness.

I am sure Little Hawk will vouch for me on this one. :D

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:45 PM

Methinks (well, supposes) DW is, for the moment, assuming the role of the strict observer.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:46 PM

I'm with you, Bill... D's W is MIA at a time when D's W should making sure everyone is at the very least playin' in the same key...

I mean, is that too much to ask???

(This is Mudville, Bobert???...)

Oh, nevermind... Back to the slobber-knockin'...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 07:53 PM

Bill D said, in part:

This place IS a community, just as much as the houses and people in your town or neighborhead [sic]....

As a matter of fact, I feel I know many of the Mudcatters I "meet" here far better than I know my physical neighbors for three houses in any direction. Yes, I've physically met a few of you, but most of those regulars whom I "know" here are known as personalities through their written communications on a wide variety of subjects, over a pretty long period of time. By way of contrast, I seldom see, let alone talk at any length with, any of the folks down the street.

It must be said, though, that the personality of any given Mudcatter I may "know" here may well be quite different from the personality I would gather if I knew him/her only through physical meeting. And that's for several possible reasons:

a: The 'Catter consciously creates and inhabits a persona at odds with his real-life existence, perhaps for comic purposes (e.g. Bobert? Spaw?);
or
b: The 'Catter's greater or lesser ability in written communication is at variance with his personal, spoken communication, resulting in an impression either better or worse than might be in personal presence;
or
c: With some individuals, given the slowing-down or moderating influence of having to put thoughts (if any) in words, and in typed form, with second thoughts and self-editing opportunities, the 'Catter may appear more moderate, or more dull, or more brilliant that he might in person (maybe this is just more of b above);
or
d: The converse of c might be that the slowing, perhaps effortful nature of putting words on the screen just causes an abandonment or abridgement of thoughts or jests which would pour forth into physical speech spontaneously, thereby skewing or preventing the communication of the 'Catter's "real" personality;
or (and this is the last one I'll attempt to give):
e: The facelessness of the interaction here, and the unlikelihood of any real-world consequences of what one might say here--the virtual anonymity if you will--may allow aspects of the "real" personality to emerge in Mudcat print which would perforce be moderated or even hidden in the face-to-face world (e.g. Clinton Hammond?).

And possibly other examples which don't come to mind at the moment. Think I'll go see if there's beer in the refrigerator.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Janie
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:05 PM

Thoughts without the thinker. Noting. Just noting. I'm inclined to think the only way to learn to do that entails repeatedly jumping in and out of the fishbowl and observing (noting) the experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:13 PM

"Comic purposes", my hairy hillbilly butt, Dave-ster... I'm perfectly serious and so is Spaw-zer... OKay, Sapw-zer might not be... I can't speak fir him... But I'm sure he'll get back to you on this one... Maybe way back... You know, ahhhhh...

...nevermind what "way back" means, Dave... Don't want to worry yer purdy head, 'er nuthin'...

And if you think that my real life ain't, ahhhhhh....

(Go back and reread it, Bobert...)

This sh*t is hurtin' my head... Can't we do easy stuff like talkin' about what a "dick" Cheney is???

Or what makes women tick???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 08:40 PM

Bobert said:

Can't we do easy stuff like talkin' about * * * or what makes women tick???

But we've already got a never-ending "Mother of all.." thread, Bobert!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:19 PM

Dick Cheney has never posted there even once. Mom wouldn't permit it, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:23 PM

Kat, I have NO idea what you mean-- I haven't posted anything but silly nonsense for hours and hours.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM

Dave, that's a pretty fair post back there. But make no mistake, I AM Spaw. Spaw is not an invented persona. I think the only part of "Spaw" that is different comes from the fact that because of the jokes and Cletus tales, I am expected to inject flatulence into everything around here. I tried backing off that but to no avail so I gave up. Also its a bit like Groucho at times too. If I don't insult people on a regular basis, I get PM's asking if I'm okay.

But all of that and including the colorful language is Pat Patterson as well. Not everything is a fart joke, but I make some and I razz damn near everyone when I can make it fun. I have a serious and thoughtful side but so does Spaw. I try to write in the same way I speak. In whatever case though, Pat and Spaw are the same fellow........you know...kind of a jackass to some.....but fuck ';em if they can't take a joke!

Pat Spaw Greaseball ......and once, Julie Nixon

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:31 PM

Danged right, Rap, and that is my exact point...

If I was Dick Cheney'e mom I'd keep him away from here, too... Way to dangerous, unless of course, he comes in here with his shotgun then...

...bet's are off... He have this joint shot up in a few minutes... I mean, half ther folks here would now be in ambumances on their way to Mudville General Hospital for unspecified gunshot wounds...

Too bad that Cheney was going thru his Chickenhawk stage during Vietnam... He would have have had plenty of opportunities to play "bad-ass"...

(But, Bobert, Cheney ain't a bad-ass... He's a chicken...)

...and yer point???

Nevermind, this thread is about some kind anthropological experiement.... Dissin' Dickless Cheney ain't in the antropolgical experiement handbook...

Yeah, you go experiementin' on a bunch of somewhat neurotic folk singers and leave Cheney alone???

Like what is that about???

Really...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 09:32 PM

That's just what I was gonna say, Pat/Spaw is Spaw/Pat, oh, and Peaches!

Susan, when you asked where the analysts were (presumably you were referring to DW) and followed it with:

(How anal would I have to be, to be considered a true analyst?)

I am on the brown path now.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:32 AM

It's just as well that everybody is behaving in this thread, but regarding Uncle daveO's post above...

The Old Chat Forum had a Troll

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:45 AM

Kat, it was Spaw who made the analyst remark, and I joked it back his way.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 08:54 AM

I suspected Hardiman Susan, after that joke he told me before. I seem to remember the instrument in question was called a Guzla?
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 09:06 AM

Lessee, Bobert: I got guns and a "carry" permit; Kendall and Big Mick carry guns...that's those I can think off right off hand...wait, Sorcha's got guns...Dicky "Bird" Cheney wouldn't be wise to start shooting people on MC. We might just shoot back.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:19 AM

He comes around here, I'd dig out the old single-shot twenty-two rifle, straightest-shooting gun I've ever used.

Susan, it was a simple enough question. I just thought you carried it to a particularly personal and low manner. (I don't like scatological references.)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:37 AM

Fun thread.
Reminds me of the good old days at MC.
Span,did they let you out on work release?:)

Russ (Permanent GUEST)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 10:50 AM

Me, I've been unsuccessfully trying to get a 2007 digital camera to interface with a 1996 computer, losing my mouse connection in the process. Dave's Wife oughtta write a paper about this thread as revenge, but I suspect she's too nice a person for that.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 11:14 AM

Ah yes, cultural anthropology, a field of great interest to me. In most primitive societies, there was an important role for the jester, the "holy fool", as both a satirist and a mirror to hold up to the society to reveal its own foibles. This figure in Native-American cultures was often called Coyote in folk tales. Here we call him Catspaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:05 PM

OR sometimes, when he's not around, we invoke the Actress' Creed: any member in a pinch...

Kat, I submit if Spaw had made the same remark it would have been a chuckle, rather than a frown.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM

Interesting point, Amos, and one which goes directly to Dave's Wife's theory on this thread...for Katlaughing, the comment was inappropriate not to the Forum, but to Wisywyg's personna on the Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:44 PM

Indeed, Ernie; it is worth noting, perhaps, that (IMHO) the "attributes" of the "persona" object projected from any one operator into the matrix of Forum "reality" are, in each case, ultimately self-selected by the operator through a complex of subtle choices preceding the submission of each post in each context to which the operator responds. These choices include innumerable refinements of vocabulary, emphasis, degree of entanglement, forcefulness, tone, and emotional expression, just to name a few off the top of my head, which are completely the operator's determination.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: MMario
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM

But isn't that essentially true in any interaction between two people?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

Who knows MM, if I understood what Amos J said, I might agree, but then again, it was Amos that said it!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:09 PM

Since I created all of you, the discussion is all my own anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:26 PM

Is Rapaire powerful enough to create an entity which will absolutely ignore Rapaire? Discuss.

MM: It is, yes; but the addition of so many intermediary steps in a text-based network dialogue tends to obscure this fact and create a sense of disconnection from personal involvement which some people distort to a perceived personal advantage, although no real advantage accrues at all. So it is worth emphasizing, for example, that the precise reason others may perceive me (within the Forum) as a harebrained pedantic nutcase is because of the many times I have chosen to communicate in a harebrained, or pedantic, or nutty fashion. A series of choices, by the way, with which I am completely comfortable here.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

..and so now at this complex point of community discohesion


[if that word don't exist.... it does now !!!!]..



"punkfolkrocker"


realises he is not so alone

in coping with his multiple persona disorder social disfunctions..


and so


until at least the next time his 3D world concious gets us both

into a blurry staggering weekend cidered up crisis of 'being' and 'identity'


"we" will continue to survive just as hoplessly badly spelled and ungrammatical
as ever before

here at "mudcat"..


g'night..

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:37 PM

duly noted

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:39 PM

I now know why his persona is near death!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

.. and we still prefere our folk music as loud as possible

on cheap chinese made electric guitars and fuzz boxes..




ps.. if i do ever again get really bored with "punkfolkrocker"


look out for


"thrashdeathmetalfokrocker"


sometime soon after my fastly encroaching 50th birthday..

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 02:33 PM

Can something encroach at a fast pace?**BG**

Maybe, folks, re' the other thing, but a "chuckle?" No, more like a groan. He knows I hate cleaning up litter!

LeeJ...I had a Siamese once named Heyokah..same kinda character, though fastidious when it came to scat. Taught himself how to pee in the toilet, I kid you not!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:00 PM

In Norse mythology the role of Coyote the Trickster was filled by Loki.

but fuck ';em if they can't take a joke!

Pat Spaw Greaseball ......and once, Julie Nixon

    Come now, isn't that a bit harsh, considering roughness of your bark PatSpawGreaseballJulieCoyoteLoki. ;o)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:07 PM

His PRESENT tense, Neil, is actually Leeki; it his PAST tense which is Loki. The future tense, which is irregular, is damwellLieki.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 03:17 PM

Ukulele Lady
by Richard Whiting & Gus Kahn

I saw the splendor of the moonlight
On Honolulu Bay
There's something tender in the moonlight
On Honolulu Bay

And all the beaches are filled with peaches
Who bring their ukes along
And in the glimmer of the moonlight
They love to sing this song

1:
If you like Ukulele Lady
Ukulele Lady like a'you
If you like to linger where it's shady
Ukulele Lady linger too
If you kiss Ukulele Lady
While you promise ever to be true
And she sees another Ukulele
Lady foolin' 'round with you

2:
Maybe she'll sigh (an awful lot)
Maybe she'll cry (and maybe not)
Maybe she'll find somebody else
By and by
To sing to when it's cool and shady
Where the tricky wicky wacky woo
If you like Ukulele Lady
Ukulele Lady like a'you

She used to sing to me by moonlight
On Honolulu Bay
Fond memories cling to me by moonlight
Although I'm far away

Some day I'm going, where eyes are glowing
And lips are made to kiss
To see somebody in the moonlight
And hear the song I miss

Repeat 1.
Repeat 2.

©Bourne Inc. (ASCAP)

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

HEY 'SPAW!!! and to think, I doubted you!

Must be relatives from the old country.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 07 - 04:56 AM

Visit the Zlatarna Jewellers in the background.
Giok ¦¬]

added the "r" in the name
el jo clone

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 09:36 PM

Good Lord - go away for a bit and come back to over 180 posts! egads!

Katlaughing - one of the better deal sites is Slickdeals.Net - skip on over there if you want to see what a "deal" site is. it is basically a place where thousands of users share information on advertised shopping deals, unadvertised shopping deals, di==online discount codes to use on online shopping sites to further save on already heavily discounted prices at sites such as Amazon, free-shipping codes to help make deals even better values, Free sample offers, Free merchandise offers in exchange for filling out a survey, Free products in exchange for submitting product test reports and so on.

Deal sites tend to be frequented by young parents up to a certain age, college kids thrilled to get stuff for free or cheap, empty-nester women and a minority of geeky men. The geeky men tend to be in it for the thrill of the hunt or because they have young children and need to stretch a buck.

The demographics of deal sites are vastly different from that of the Mudcat and the types of communications differ as a result. A large portion of deal site visitors have very little real-life interactions outside of their immediate families.

Now I am going to sift back through the above and read.

FYI - anthropologists who talk through films shouldn't be allowed in the theatre!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 10:16 PM

>>>>Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Desert Dancer - PM
Date: 14 Nov 07 - 06:36 PM

This thread is a study in itself: it's almost Mudcat in a microcosm... intellectual curiosity; insider resistance to inquiry out of the "norm"; rampant scatalogical rowdiness...

~ Becky in Tucson<<<<

LOL - yup. Exactly. And not a single person disappointed me by acting out of character!

Nobody is suggesting we discuss these behaviors with an eye towards doing anything other than navel-gazing, at least I'm not.   I've been observing online communication long enough to know that observation doesn't seem to have any real effect upon it. The only time I have seen observation or at least the explicit notification of organized observations have an effect is when it is announced in an attempt to deal with offline criminal behavior such as the organized harassment of of one member by another or several others. I have not seen that pattern here.

Katlaughing suggests that a thread inviting analysis of Mudcat behavior might result in self-censorship. it could.   I'd go into more detail but I'm going to self-censor myself! I need to get dinner on the table.

Have a great rest of the evening everyone. When I'm done eating, iu'll come back and see if I was successful in convincing Bee to rename Snowball "Souser"!

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 10:39 PM


FYI - anthropologists who talk through films shouldn't be allowed in the theatre!

I agree!!

And not a single person disappointed me by acting out of character!

That in itself is enough to put caution to anything anyone chooses to post and also shows a prejudice on your part as to outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:55 PM

It seems to me that it is quite a rare skill TO "act out of character" convincingly. What would you have folks do?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:07 PM

But what of those who decided not to post?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:46 PM

Out of character? You WANT me to act out of character?

Druther not, but if it makes someone happy....

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:53 PM

I was SO acting out of character!!! An' I can PROVE it, too!! I WAS!! So there!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:09 PM

You're too much of a character to act out of character, Amos. I, on the other hand, have no character whatsoever.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:49 AM

Low Key: Norse God of cartoonists.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:51 AM

Brother to Bald Ur - Norse god of Hair loss.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 11:59 AM

And first cousin to Thor, the guardian of priapists.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:26 PM

Not to mention nymphomaniacs...

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:26 PM

ANd those who obsessively grab numbers...

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Amos
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:27 PM

Like

200

.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:52 PM

I went looking for the thread on Thread Drift as a result of reading the current thread BS: Rules for Kittens in Mudcattery , which started off as a serious discussion and now is not serious at all, unless you count "humourous" exchanges and put downs as being serious.

While looking for that thread drift thread {which I've not found yet}, I found this one. I don't know whether Jeri would agree, but I think that this comment of her's fits what happened/is happening on that "Rules For Kittens..." thread:

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Jeri - PM
Date: 15 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

Perfect example why nothing serious or close to the heart will ever be successfully discussed at Mudcat again. People who are willing to sabotage threads by posting stupid shit in quantity will be too uncomfortable to let the threads continue. They don't have anything to say about the actual subject, but they have to let their egos run free to trample smaller but significant contributions."...

-snip-

I admit to having a very serious nature, and I know that I'm prone to analyzing and over-analyzing most things. With regard to that Mudkittens thread, I've wondered whether the "stupid shit" {aka "humorous put-downs/exchanges} serve a worthwhile purpose of helping restore the community of posters' equalibrium when difficult subjects are raised and {as a result} discussions either become or threaten to become to emotionally tense. If that is the case, then maybe changing the subject is a good thing.

Or is it? I truly am not sure. Maybe it depends on the subject and how it is changed and whether we ever are mature? comfortable? courageous? enough to discuss sensitive subjects.

Furthermore, I'm wondering what-if anything-should be the role of the thread starter when his or her threads goes off topic in the way that I've described in a general sense and not focusing on that Mudkittens thread or this thread. In response to a poster on that Mudkittens thread who wrote that she felt that the Original Poster might counsider such a high degree of thread drift to be rude, the Original Poster responded that she had no problem with the thread going off-topic.

In addition to the question about the conscious {or unconscious} motives for posters taking a thread off-topic after sensitive, difficult subjects are introduced and briefly discussed, as a secondary question, I wonder what would happen if the Original Poster does request that the comedic exchanges and putdowns cease and the commentors return to more serious discussion.

Does anyone care to respond to these questions?

Btw, because I think I should, I'm going to post a link to this comment on that Mudkitten thread. And, because I'm interested in re-reading it, I'm going to continue looking for that Thread Drift thread. If I find it, I'll post a link to it in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:56 PM

200?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 09:57 PM

Your timing is way off, Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:12 PM

I found the thread on BS: Thread Drift .

It turns out to be a humor {humour} thread and not one that seriously talks about the reasons why threads do {and maybe should} go off-topic. Maybe I was thinking of another Mudcat thread that includes that kind of discussion. I'm not sure.

However, I found this comment from that thread to be interesting [in a thought provoking way-though truth be told, my thoughts are provoked one way or the other by just about any comment]

Subject: RE: BS: Thread Drift
From: autolycus - PM
Date: 13 Mar 06 - 05:24 AM

Thread drift happens amongst creative types like us who know that things are connected - we prefer joined up thinking.

A downside of thread drift is that interesting stuff in the drift cannot be found, cos it's not identifiable from the thread title.

Another downside is that a subject can't be properly discussed by the point being kept to.

Perhaps, Peace, in our 'against thread drift' moments , we can bring subjects back to the point. If there turn out to be determined drifters.............well that's yin/yang life.

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Jan 09 - 10:31 PM

so, Uncle Dave O...was there a beer in the refrigerator?

Subject: RE: BS: Native Behaviors in Mudcat Society
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Jan 09 - 10:40 AM

I remember another thread from years ago that complained about threads being hijacked.

You can image where that went.

Thread drift and off-topic posts just seem to be a fact of life at mudcat.

Russ (Permanent GUEST)