The Future of Folk Clubs

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:20 PM

The term 'folk club' has a limited life, and so it should. The concept will never die. WHile people want to sing and listen they will continue to do so. In my opinion, that is.

D,

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:21 PM

Oh - and I claim page 2!

:D

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:58 PM

Linda Kelly, I didn't say there was anything wrong with Shirley Bassey just that my Granny really liked her.....I saw Tom Jones and Rolf Harris at Glasto back in the day....along with some good bands as well! (actually both Tom & Rolf were pretty good...but I have my street cred to think about)...and they weren't as good as The Levellers, Steeleye Span, Jah Wobble, The Cure, The Pixies....and many many many more. Actually that's a thought ....I wonder if any of them would come and play KFFC?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:07 PM

I know you didn't Banjiman, and if I thought I could afford the Cure I 'd book them too!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Banjiman
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

The Cure...The future of Folk???

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: melodeonboy
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:26 PM

"A folk club is no more traditional than rock and roll."

Surely that depends on the folk club! I've been to folk clubs where people do little else than produce inferior versions of 60s pop songs, in which case the quotation above might apply. But I've also been to folk clubs where the bulk of the material is traditional. Such clubs provide an environment where we have the chance to both sing/play traditional music and to listen to it. We don't therefore have to "confuse" (as one contributor put it) folk clubs and traditional music. They are clearly not the same thing, but the folk club can have a useful role to play in supporting/furthering traditional music.

Most of us don't have the luxury of strolling into the local pub to find the locals singing in the bar; or a landlord who would encourage us to break into song. Folk clubs (along with other events) can provide us with the hard found space to perform traditional music; they should not be deemed irrelevant to it.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

Isn't the Folk club scene a bit of a closed circuit?

Mostly booking the crowd puller and resting on singers nights to stay afoat. Very few book newcomers. They can't afford it.
Shoot me down if I'm wrong.

I can understand Greg and Treewind. going the way that they do.

Not many Folk clubs here where I live (Sweden). It's a closed shop here too.
So you go for the pub night. Which I stopped doing in the 80's.

I go mostly for Library's, museums or cultural events at the local village society. As Folkiedave says. I support the village hall.

Also gallery cafe's and art societey functions too.
Even done some old people's hoomes.

When I visit Britain (can't get used to calling it UK) I hit the festivals and a few clubs where I know I'll get to sing.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:03 PM

I saw Tom Jones live in Birmingham in 1966 in a nightclub with his band and they were superb. I got a bit fed up of women who couldn't throw their smelly knickers far enough and finished on my head (I was in the front row of tables. That will teach me. LOL
Last year I did something I was very proud about. I booked a stretch Limo that took my Dad who was 90 and my mother who was 89 with carers, from Lincoln to Birmingham NEC to see Shirley Bassey live (front row). They didn't want to go, but when they came back they were raving about the whole event. My Dad went so far as to say that it was the best thing that had happened in his life (My mom wasn't too pleased LOL). Sadly he died 2 months later. Very spooky.

I want to get Billy Conolly to Faldingworth!!!!!! Maybe if I get to 90 Spooky.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

Blimey I got John Conolly on my mind :-)

Billy Connolly

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:24 PM

Fidjit

Isn't the Folk club scene a bit of a closed circuit?

Mostly booking the crowd puller and resting on singers nights to stay afoat. Very few book newcomers. They can't afford it.
Shoot me down if I'm wrong.

Perhaps we work to a different "business model" but staying afloat isn't an issue if every night finances itself. All our guests get paid from the take on the door (or from the day if it's part of our workshop series) regardless of whether they are a local star or national Big Name. We don't use cheap guests to finance the expensive ones. We try to cover the spectrum from the famous to singers nights. Last night we had Too Many Strings; I think they are all over eighteen now. They had a good turnout considering Blowzabella were over the street and The Imagined Village was in Brighton, eight miles away.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:22 AM

I'm not predicting the death of Folk Music; by the time 2100 comes around, The Spice Girls will have probably made the Folk genre (.... God forbid...), but "The folk clubs are precisely where people who care about the real tradition are to be found".
'Folky events' may well have evolved into more participatory singaround/music session type gatherings, but that is the kind of decline I'm concerned with...., and indeed, concerned with rectifying.

Festivals are all very well and good, but Clubs keep the grass-roots engaged.

I have talked about 'providing a service' before.
I order to provide a service to the public (in this instance, a Folk Club), it is always advisable to have a little capital in reserve for the nights when the door money isn't great. Having a little in reserve can enable the organiser/committee to be a bit more adventurous when booking acts; keeping the local afficianados on board, and (perhaps, most importantly), keeping them feeling as if they're part of something living, something dynamic.

This would mean involving the Club with the activities of the local community; making the Club 'visible', and putting on whatever kind of fundraisers you would deem appropriate, to help in the maintainance of the Club.

It's a fair enough comment to say that "...the club belongs to the members", but nepotism can be a very unhealthy by-product, if that term gets over-defined, and that does sound the death-knell of any operation, never mind Folk Clubs.
If the calendar looks healthy the members will be satisfied, anyway, and if the organiser has his/her head screwed on, they'll try and compliment the vicissitudes of their local community; putting something special on, perhaps, on the weekend in the month when most people get paid, for instance, local holidays, etc.

If you as a Folk Club would like to do more, but feel constrained due to the finances, explore the possibilities in your area. Village halls are great venues, because as they're 'theme-free', you can create whatever ambience your heart desires.
To be able to afford 'the bigger names' (sometimes at short notice, as extra dates can come up), a little bit of reserve money to make up any shortfall might make your decision to book the artist a little more firm, thereby grabbing a wee exclusive for your Club...., and your community

"The future of folkclubs is down to hardwork and teamwork"

It certainly is

B.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.

Its okay for 'professional' folk musicians to have another job - preferably something identifiably midlle class - librarian, or teacher, say....doctor (perfect!).

Whereas when you suggest some people as guests to certain organisers and radio djs, you get a very snotty ....oh yes I've heard of them - they do pubs...as though they've sold their souls to the devil.

I'm often abused by various mudcatters of being more working class than thou, but the folk world really is a bastion of middle class creepiness - and the aspect I've just described REALLY does make my flesh crawl.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:25 AM

My ideal folk club takes place in a filthy back room untouched since 1957; too small for guitars, stage, PA or egos, but just about big enough to allow for the cranky individualism essential to the collective experience that is folk singing.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:16 AM

Brendy

'Folky events' may well have evolved into more participatory singaround/music session type gatherings, but that is the kind of decline I'm concerned with....

It takes a pretty perverse definition of folk music to see participation as decline.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:30 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.

Who is this "folk establishment?". How do you know they look down on musicians who play other gigs? I have a folk musician friend who plays loads of ceilidhs, Festivals, Burns nights, blues, country and western and in a rock band occasionally - if asked.

He's never told me anyone has looked down on him.

Speaking as a radio DJ - albeit after two whole weeks and four hours of shows - I don't look down on anyone. I might not play their music - but that is a different thing. Some of the people whose music I am unlikely to play include the huge folk stars.

And the criteria is the music, nothing to do with where they play. So far I have played people who have done the Albert Hall and also people who have sung in the pub just down the road from me.

For what it is worth I stopped going to folk clubs on a regular basis because they were full of people who were singing the teenage diary they wrote twenty years ago and now their marriage had broken up (or stayed as everlasting love) they wanted to trace the roots of that break-up (or whatever) by singing in public about it. Those singing traditional songs were not very good and were totally introspective.

Why on earth would anyone want to spend their evenings listening to a string of people like that? I used to go to folk clubs knowing that there was a good chance I would hear someone who was good.

The chance of that happening nowadays is remote - apart from professionals and wannabe professionals.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:51 AM

well if you stopped going - that's your story. some of us never gave up on the idealism that attracted us to folk music. more fool us, I sometimes think.

Though how exctly you expect to keep in touch with what IS folk music to ordinary people without visiting the haunts of folk music enthusiasts, I can't imagine. I suppose you can read folk journalists, but most of the space in their magazines and the warmth of their adulation, is bought and sold by the recording companies who advertise on their other pages.

And your friend may have had one set of experiences. but don't tell me that I haven't experienced at first hand in my own life, and second hand when I see other younger musicians trudging through the same crap nowadays. they work the pubs to buy decent instruments etc and give themselves the time to raising their game, and in doing that they lose the 'cred' of the folkerati - tossers one and all.

As for the your impatience with young singer songriters - well it is annoying sometimes - but you can frequently help them with advice - as to how to improve their approach. They're young and by and large saveable and worth supporting - after all they aren't out there beating up old ladies, or dealing drugs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:04 AM

Snail:It takes a pretty perverse definition of folk music to see participation as decline.

That wasn't a definition of folk music, but of folk events.

Personally, I see exclusion as a decline. Having a session or a singaround is fine for the participants but rules out most of the audience. If the folk music in an area is restricted to a bunch of buddies singing/playing their old favourites, that's a decline. Even if it isn't quite as dire as that, having a "musos only" time together is just an elite form of a folk club. There's a place for such, in nurturing and bringing along new players, or just having somewhere for the more established ones to play and relax, but unless the rest of the scene is thriving they draw away talent that could support a more open, friendly, club. Which then can, indeed, decline.

But not all clubs are friendly - so I'm told, not having experienced one - and some may well get stuck in a rut, as vividly described above. That isn't a criticism to be thrown as a soggy blanket over all clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:24 AM

Participation = exclusion?

I think I'll go and lie down in a darkened room until it's time to go to the session this evening.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:51 AM

WLD: "What I find really distressing is the folk establishment. The way it looks down on musicians who do other gigs than folk clubs.... when you suggest some people as guests to certain organisers and radio djs, you get a very snotty ....oh yes I've heard of them - they do pubs...as though they've sold their souls to the devil."

Working musicians get gigs wherever they can find them, and I can think of a few successful acts playing major festivals who have served their apprenticeships on the pub circuit (especially 'Irish' pubs) in Britain and Europe. On the other hand pub gigs don't tend to encourage more challenging material, sensitive interpretations, or fine musicianship, so if an act is working *mostly* on the pub circuit then they might not be best suited to, say, Sidmouth festival. But the idea that an organiser or DJ would go checking whether an act had played pubs before deciding whether to promote them is pretty fanciful.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:53 AM

Rare as it is for me to agree with the Wee Little Drummer, I am pleasedf to say I support him totaqlly on the pub question.I must say I have experienced the attitude of looking down on people who play pubs. It does indeed exist in some venue organisers/ committee members. Also, surprisngly, a prejuduce exists in some people's minds against people who play for dancing (therefore, they can't possibly play for listening). Well, it is perfectly true that some pub acts might not be ideal for listening to in a traddy club, or some dance bands may not be verey interesting to listen to. But I would personally turn it right round, and say I might be quite suspicious of a folk "act" who couldn't hold an audience in a pub. Or of a dance band that you couldn't bear listening to.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:09 AM

Re-young snigger snoggers

I was at the folk club in Kingswinford, Brum last singers night. there were these two (in my day they would be called lower 6th formers) got up onstage.

One said, we wrote this under the influence of drugs...

Someone behind me whispered, yeh night nurse or junior aspirin.....

Bu the thing was that the 14 year old kid I was sittingnest to was wide eyed in admiration. he could identify with them - not with all
the old buggers like me.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Santa
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:35 AM

I think there's a genuine difference between a pub audience and a folk club audience, and not all performers who do a fine job in one environment would transfer easily to the other. As a real example, one bloke came along to our club from playing in a pub band. Once he'd learnt that he didn't need to yell at the top of his voice and hammer his guitar, he became a real asset to the club, but the first time was painful. I can readily imagine the other side of the coin, that some of the gentler club singers would have no chance of a hearing in a pub. Childe Ballads, anyone? Not in my locals. Not without amplification, anyway. I dare say Tanglefoot would manage, or John Kirkpatrick, or Greg Stephens, but not everyone's in that category.

To outrightly condemn anyone who couldn't hold an audience in a pub seems to be setting the bar too high.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:02 AM

I can honestly say that one band who can hold their own in a pub, folk club, village hall, you name it, in all circumstances, and they are Wild Willy Barrett's Barn Dance Bad Boys Band & Mary Holland.

I have seen them in a pub and at my village hall and also seen WWB & MH as duet in the village hall.
Can't speak highly enogh about them. They know how to entertain an audience.

Please don't take this a critcism of all other performers, becuase they all bring their own style to each venue. Just using them as an example.

If you don't beleive me, go see them.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:14 AM

GUEST Santa: I very much agree that the ability to hold an audience in a pub might be setting the bar a bit too high for some styles of performer. And it all depends on the pub. Town centre Saturday night pubs nowadays, for example, are hardly the place where I would expecty any folk performer to shine. But consider a quiet pub with a nice fire burning and a few people sitting about enjoying a snug night of beer and songs or fiddle tunes, say. Now, wouldn't it a realistic question to ask: how would such-and-such a person/group go down there? It's not an absolute criterion, a shibboleth that could lead to execution if you fail: but it is a question worth considering. I would imagine the Watersons, the McPeakes or Leadbelly would go down fine in my local, or at a folk club. If they want a booking, I'll recommend them to the landlady.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:21 AM

Hey Big Al, that was the first folk club I ever went to in my very young innocent days. Its called The woodman I think, and is classed as the Black Country I think. Not Birmingham.
Thats where I first saw that long blonde haired bloke called Martyn Whyndham-Read.
I also saw that very special man, Cyril Tawney there for the first time.
What better introduction could I have had.
I don't know if it is a good club now, but it certainly was in those days. I beleive the resident band was the Puritans and still remeber to this day, Doris who was running the bar.

Why is it I can't remember what I did yesterday?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 08:24 AM

Now that I've had a bit of a lie down, can I return to Santa's post of 05:04?

Several of the Lewes Arms Folk Club residents also run sessions of various sorts in the area. Are you saying we shouldn't because a) sessions exclude the audience and b) sessions draw people away from folk clubs? Are you saying we shouldn't encourage people to take part?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:47 AM

Though how exactly you expect to keep in touch with what IS folk music to ordinary people without visiting the haunts of folk music enthusiasts,

An interesting thought which makes two assumptions neither of which are correct. The first assumption is that "....what IS folk music ..." can be found in folk clubs. The second is that folk clubs are the haunts of folk music enthusiasts. I would contend that many of them are not. They are just people who play the guitar and sing to their mates who also sing and play the guitar. Since I do neither I stoipped going.

In fact I go to a couple of two/three sessions a week, minimum of one every week. I went to eight festivals last year where as well as listening to some major artists there I make a point of looking at the lesser-known. The largest was Warwick where I did NOT go to Seth Lakeman and did go to Mike and Ali Vass. The smallest festival Iwent to was the Bradfield Traditional Festival. Sometimes the sessions come to me - most notably outside my tent at 4.00 am at Warwick.

I went to a couple of concerts and a couple of folk clubs where people I wanted to see were booked as guests and were performing. (Spiers and Boden; Frankie Gavin and Tim Edey). I also went to an academic conference on the Folk Revival last year. So I doubt if I am out of touch.

Since I am sure we can agree that the amount of folk music has vastly expanded since the "heyday" of folk clubs in the 60's/70's as the folk club has declined what makes you think folk clubs are the place where ".......where folk music IS"?

Let me turn the question around.

What makes you think that folk clubs are where it is? If people are moving the performances of folk music forward do you think it is happening in folk clubs? More likely in workshops and at festivals and sessions. Take a look at the Demon Barbers website and see his Yorkshire Dance video with break dancers, a human beat box and some clogging. You don't have to like it and it may not go any further but what a great attempt to move folk forward.

Criticise my taste in the various aspects of folk music if you like - all you have to do is listen to the radio show I do......but do not tell me I am out of touch because I rarely go to folk clubs.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM

Forgot to mention I shall be at about twelve/fifteen traditional carol sessions over the next five weeks.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:23 AM

Is the folk singer (and for Richard) the Folk Song singer, Becomming like a bit of a freak side show at the fair. You know what I mean

"ROLL UP!, ROLL UP! Come and see the folksinger. Yes madam, he can play 3 chords"

"ROLL UP1 RO... No madam he doesn't do any Dylan and yes he has a capo".

"ROLL... What? Yes of course he has a concertina Madam".

"£3. Show just starting"

I'll head for the target practice tent. I'm one of the shy's.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

Well, the future is a very big and any of us will probably only have a small place in it. This is one of the things I intend to do:

Wednesday 5 December in the side room at the Beech on Beech Road in Cholrton, Manchester, we plan to hold a singaround.

Many of you will be familiar with this cunning plan because I have been running it around for a while.

The general idea is that we gather in the side room and sing mostly, but not exclusively, traditional folk songs. We will probably play a few tunes as well and people may recite poems. Card tricks have been known but the handling of ferrets is most unwelcome.

I don't think people will stand up and whilst we will be sociable and chat about this and that I trust singers etc. will be heard with something akin to er ... respect.

No charge will be made, I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing. If two singers are present we will probably sing songs in turn until we run out of songs or time. If 6 singers turn up we will all sing one then go round again. I guess we will have a break and people can announce other events such as:

Chorlton Folk Club
Every Thursday at South West Manchester Cricket Club
Ellesmere Road Chorlton.

The Landlord is keen for us to use the room and I trust much beer will be drunk, of which more details later, but Timothy Taylor Landlord is excellent.

If we have a good time and the Landlord is willing we will perhaps meet a month later

How does this look then?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM

In my experienc and I have been gigging in folkclubs for over thirty years,FOLK CLUBS are where you hear Folk music occassionally thereis abit of crossover with country or Jazz,less now than there used to be.
Much depends on whether there are cheap suitable venues available,plus hard working enthusiastic volunteers to run them,who although they are amateurs need to have a professional attitude ,organisation and promotion wise,a difficult task.
Iwould like to thank all the club organisers over the years who have helped do this.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:01 PM

I will probably "Chair" the fist night in that I will ask people if they want to sing.

Typing error surely. Should that be fist fight?

I'll get my coat.

Dave

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:49 PM

Not unknown and that's for sure, perhaps we will get through the firts one?

Cheers

Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:08 PM

I have no idea what gave me the idea that folk clubs might have something to do with folk music.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:15 PM

I have no idea what gave me the idea that folk clubs might have something to do with folk music.

Well if you believe that a group of people playing their guitars to each other and singing self-penned songs constitutes a folk club good luck to you.

It is not all the folk club scene - thank goodness - but it can be a large part of it.

Tell me how do you keep in touch, through ignoring what people say?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:42 PM

I think what you need is a big pile of hoops. Throw them on the ground and when they have finished rolling about some will land near and some will overlap.

Then the overlapping ones can be called things like A tune session and A singaroung, because they are not the same but they are a bit. Then you call another Morris Dancing and that might overlap a bit with another and that could be social dancing. Then that one by itself could be .... er ......... well you have a go.

I have got to go and see Fairport play Dylan in a knock out round at the Lowry. The winner goes through to meet Maddy Prior and her Festival Band in the semis traditionally played on Boxing Day.

I am glad I have been able to be of so much help. And don't forget my singaround at the Beech,

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

well if people are writing songs - its usually because they have some thoughts an feelings they wish to express about their lives.

I do not trust people who exclusively sing   about how sad they are for the victims of the press gang, those slain in the first world war, the sailors on The Victory and the victims of pit explosions and the like.

As the recent Kipling thread proves - most of that type privately think warmongers are rather good eggs. It easy to feel sorry for people you can't do anything about. Its called sentimentality - not compassion. take some interest in the poor sods who are sweating under the yoke of our present circumstances.

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 01:54 PM

This is the kind of dangerous talk associated with "The Living Tradition" faction of the Peoples Front for the Liberation of thingy.

Be careful Drummer they know where you drink and they will put date rape drugs in you pint!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:06 PM

Sorry Villian. I previously acredited my Village halls refference to Folkiedave. Sorry both.

Chas

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:08 PM

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: weelittledrummer - PM
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:27 AM

What I find really distressing is the folk establishment.

I think you really ought to tell us what you mean by the folk establishment. When do they meet? Who is in it? How do people join? what sort of thing do they control?

What sort of mechanism do they use to control folk music?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:22 PM

Hi Kids: The Future of Folk Clubs is in your hands. Uh, make that Spirit. No, not the kind that comes in a pint. Check the thread, Folklore: Canada's First Lady of Folk.
Instant Folk Club!
The receipe? 1/ Rent hall(Faith required, cause you gotta lay out $$$) 2/Advertise(More Faith. $$$) 3/Do show.(Performers should be seasoned Pros). Folk Music has been keepin' on WAAY before 1968 in Montreal when I got there. and here we are in 2007 with a full(large:250)room at $25.Cdn/per cover charge. My, My...The rumours of Folk Music's demise have been greatly exaggerated...Alive n'thrivin' over here...

Don't WAIT for it to happen, stand up and be counted, and MAKE it happen. If you can provide quality entertainment for an audience. The audience will find you...

Support Folk Music...

bob

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

When I first visited folk clubs I'd never heard of any of the performers; I was locked into Buddy Holly, Eddie Cochran, Everley Bros etc.. like many of my age. I was hooked from the start, and still try to spread myself as thinly as possible to support as much of the folk "tradition" as I possibly can, without endangering my marriage. I owe club organisers a great debt, but they are equally dependent on me and the vast majority of mudcatters (and other folk enthusiasts who have not yet learned of this space). They have to be sensitive to their audience in order for their clubs to survive.

Booking "established" artists in order to get bums on seats is fine as far as it goes, but if there's to be a future for folk clubs (personally I think there's no problem in that) then they have to be prepared to take risks, and embrace change. This can fly in the face of the very notion of "tradition" of course, but taking a gamble on doing things differently can be very rewarding. At one of our local clubs, rather than sticking with the renewable/recyclable guest list, a "new" name was thrown into the mix, and the response was overwhelming - club organiser said "I'd never seen him, but isn't he brilliant!"
A recent Jez Lowe booking had bombed - over exposure maybe?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: synbyn
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

Very interesting thread- delighted to hear that the travel req is 5 miles elsewhere! Kind of bears out the point that it's more about participation theses days. A friend who was filmed years ago in the audience of a well-known club from the folk revival commented as much recently. He said that very often there were only a few floor singers whilst the attendances were large. Now, it's not uncommon for performers to make up 2/3 of the audience. I agree with the submission- it's different, but it can't be unhealthy. The folk tradition, surely, consists of passing songs on- and as Bob Copper put it, you don't want to be the one who breaks the chain. Part of this is the folk process of songs being weeded out - if new songs whether or not about teenage angst aren't sufficiently good, the singer'll know soon enough! And we all have to allow that not every song is a raging success. But here's where generosity, rather than hard-hearted commercialism kicks in- we're among friends and that's the essence of a good club. It includes, it supports, it shares. Finding a formula which ensures these is where this thread is usefully heading- good stuff!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:59 PM

Thats alright Chas, acredit Folkiedave by all means, he might just give me a free book the next time I see him :-)
Les

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

"What I find really distressing is the folk establishment....
What sort of mechanism do they use to control folk music? "

Naked power and ruthless exploiitation of the intellectually weak!

"But here's where generosity, rather than hard-hearted commercialism kicks in- we're among friends and that's the essence of a good club. It includes, it supports, it shares. Finding a formula which ensures these is where this thread is usefully heading- good stuff!"

hear! hear!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:12 PM

And then you could try...

Just wanted to share some of the ideas we're kicking aorund in Canada. The concept of the Super-Hoot/Hootenanny. You band together as musicians and sponsor an evening of Folk Music with 10-12 artists doing around 3 songs each. Folk Establishment? What do you do when your employer limits your income to an hourly wage? Fire him! Start your own business!
The momentum of sharing the music and jamming and playing together should stimulate interest. Leave room for young and old alike.

From across the pond...

bob

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

if new songs whether or not about teenage angst aren't sufficiently good, the singer'll know soon enough!

First rule of good management - test all assumptions.

Well WLD we now know what the folk establishment do (aside did they used to be the folk police?), so who are they?

I need to get one to interview on my radio programme.

And Les - I shall have a lot of buy one get on free offers next year!!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

"Well WLD we now know what the folk establishment do (aside did they used to be the folk police?), so who are they?

I need to get one to interview on my radio programme."

No the folk police and folk establishment are separate enterprises

The folk establishment is a shadowy organisation. they will not come forward and be identified as they would have to admit they got folk music into the present parlous state.

The folk police are more upfront and loudly announce their presence in the intervals at concerts, folk festivals, folk clubs... they have certain catch phrases like, I PREFER CARTHY'S VERSION EVERY TIME....! and I'M SORRY!(they're always sorry) ITS NOT WHAT I CALL FOLK MUSIC! and the dead giveaway, I HAVEN'T PRACTISED THIS ONE FOR ABOUT TWO YEARS (just to let you know that if they REALLY tried they would be much better than anyone else on the planet).

Whatever you do, basically ...you're nicked! the folk police have covered the exits...!

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 05:10 PM

Gets to sound more like Harry Potter every minute.

FolkieDave, are you going to Southwell ?

Subject: RE: The Future of Folk Clubs
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 06:57 PM

On another thread I was castigated for daring to suggest that I could live decently enough on the Folk circuit in England, when all around me people were nay-saying me.
I would love to know where the problem lies, then?

Folk Clubs do change, as Folk Music develops in conjunction with other styles. There are performers (and I am one of them) who stick to the traditional songs, if I'm going to sing Irish, English or Scottish trad stuff. All it takes is a bit of presence on stage, and the determination not to go down the 'commercial', 'crowd-pleaser' road

I'm from the Clannad/Planxty/Bothy Band generation, and I was booted out of Comhaltas for playing an Am chord on my way from Em to D during 'Drowsy Maggie' or 'The Kid on the Mountain', or something.
You only realise the 'establishment' is there when you transgress against it. They normally occupy positions as 'decision makers'.
"... well you might be the Lord of them, but you'll never be the Lord of me
You just caught me in your territory."
(©Peter O'Malley)

B.