Crumhorns and early instruments

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Mo the caller
Date: 24 May 11 - 06:43 AM

If the Early Music players who live in Cheshire are still reading this thread they would be welcome at a music and dance session in Chester.
Last time we played for 9 dances, including 2 Playford and one C18.
We will gradually introduce new tunes and dances, the balance between old and modern will depend on the preferences of the callers, dancers and musicians.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 23 May 11 - 12:05 PM

If anybody wants a cornett there is one UK EBay right now:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rare-Cornettino-Ebony-Resin-Christopher-Monk-/170644883556?pt=UK_MusicalInstr_Brass_RL&hash=item27bb3a4864

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 11:12 PM

I agree, it was really beautiful. I am now off on an early music romp on youtube. What fun!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 10:37 PM

Thanks for the link, Jack. That was beautiful.

The audience was so attentive and respectful that I thought they were in an empty theatre until I heard the applause.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Oct 10 - 08:40 PM

Here is an Armenian duduk group doing the sort of thing I had in mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M590Lcrozo8

Here's the score of something vaguely related to what they're playing:

http://www.duduk.com/sheetmusic/Aravot%20Luso.pdf

(I have never heard crumhorns used that way, but if you can pull it off the effect will be amazing).

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 03:24 PM

Hello, Year 11 music students.

Since it is so far upthread, I am going to quote myself:

"In Austin TX there is an early music course called the Texas Toot. Part of the Toot is the Great Krumhorn Konklave, which is held in a beer garden. There, recorder players are handed crumhorns, told they are fingered either like a C or an F recorder, and left to have at it. Instantly they are playing pieces by Bach, Purcell, etc."

So, you see, a student doesn't have to be a clarinet player to handle a crumhorn. Any student who has had recorder or even flutaphone can pick up a crumhorn and play it. (Of course it matters whether it is an F or C instrument.)

I suspect it will be hard to get your kids to take crumhorns seriously. Why don't you start with your class clowns, give them some light-hearted pieces (rounds, funny songs, Playford dances) and let them grow into the idea? In time I think they will be ready for some Purcell or Praetorius.

A continuo of some kind might help make it all more musical.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

You probably want to look at Susato's "Danserye" for crumhorn-quartet music.

Something utterly different: you might look at music for Armenian duduk groups. There is a lot of solo duduk sheet music available free on-line, but not the trio and quartet arrangements, as far as as I know. Mostly there isn't much to the arrangements - added drones and pedals, even simpler than Susato - and you should be able to work it out for yourselves. The range and scale of the duduk and crumhorn are similar, but the tone is utterly different, so some pieces will work and some very definitely won't. Duduk music tends to the sombre and melancholy end of the emotional spectrum, totally unlike what early music groups usually do with crumhorns, so if you do it right it could be effective simply because it'll confound expectations.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,Year 11 music students
Date: 29 Sep 10 - 05:55 AM

Hello, our school has just found 4 crumhorns. A soprano, alto, tenor and bass. We are currentlytrying to incoperate them into our early music consort which usually complies of a recorder, a violin and a vocalist but our vocalist is also a clarinet player and can play the crumhorns... have you any ideas for pieces we could do?

Also we just thought we'd let you know that the early music is still alive within the younger generation haha.

Thank You this thread was very useful as most other sites with finger references were blocked at school.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: LadyJean
Date: 19 May 10 - 10:51 PM

back in the eighties, I had a friend who played a crumhorn made from pvc piping. I'll never forget the look on my mom's face, when she saw the thing, made from the same stuff that the plumber used to fix the lawn sprinklers that morning. Then she heard it. It sounded interesting.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Weasel
Date: 19 May 10 - 03:18 AM

Interesting to see crumhorn players from the manchester area on here - I used to run an early music group back in the 70's. I still have my instruments stashed away in a box somewhere.

They come out from time to time, but I can't play them like I used to - for a while my head would still do the divisions but my fingers wouldn't; now the head has trouble doing them too.

I can still knock a tune out of my my crumhorns, cornemuse, cornett, sackbutt and the usual pack of recorders, but both my viol and harp are in a sorry state.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Ptarmigan
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 01:08 AM

Hey, the Crumhorn & Shawm are played every week at our Ballad Session.

You've never lived till you've heard them accompany The Black Velvet Band & The Wild Rover! :-)

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:31 PM

Happy Birthday to you!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 02:18 PM

Yipeee! This thread's now reached 60!

Nothing else to report; sorry!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 04:48 AM

Would that be the Gabrieli Consort's Praetorius Mass for Christmas Morning, 1620? 1994, Deutsche Grammophon. Awesome stuff, not least for the near definitive In Dulci Jubilo...

You can get it for £7 at Amazon - & hear samples : Praetorius Mass

Any amount of shawms, rackets, dulcians, crumhorns, cornetts, sackbuts, regals etc. in there, but the main instrument has to be Roskilde Cathedral itself.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM

I learned about the instrument niches from a CD called 'Messe in 1600.' [Messe is German for Mass]. It is a recreation of a Lutheran Christmas service as it would have been done in 1600.

I can't find it now, or I would tell you the producer.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:06 AM

"Then I found out that they are an ancient feature, intended for loud instruments such as yours to play in on feast days."

Hmmm, and they stopped playing these instruments inside, when?

Tradition is when you are doing something, the reason for which is lost in the mists of time.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,John Kelly
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:59 PM

Mike: I'll give you a ring in the next couple of days. Meanwhile, if you're emailing bob back, say helloand Happy Christmas to them for me. Cheers. J.K.
Leeneia: interesting comment about those nuches. I haven't heard of that before. Churches are great places for early wind instruments. Cathedrals are even better! J.K.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:02 PM

This has been a very interestng thread and has topped the 50 mark; nothing that unusual on Mudcat but for crumhorns?

Yes John; I know Steve very well. We were both involved with Chorlton Green Women's Morris some years ago and even went to Hungary together in 1991. Steve just lives down the road in Didsbury. Othger Mudcatters will not be intersted in personal chatting so perhaps you can ring me on 01618810936 as I cannot leave you a personal message.
I have four crumhorns (SATB), a soprano shawm, a soprano rauschpfeife, bombarde, chinese shawm, Indian bean (plus a host of other exotic woodwinds)and a variety of rennaissance wide bore and baroque recorders from sopranino to bass.
I have longed wanted a bass curtal but they are pricy to buy second hand let alone new.

Look forward to hearing from you. Just had an e-mail from Bob Cross in NZ today incidentally.

Mike.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:30 PM

John, you have an amazing collection of instruments! I hope you find somebody to jam with. Early music can be so interesting.

I have just ambled onto a tune called "Jesu meine Zuversicht" which is in 8/8 time and has a most interesting rhythmic pattern. When Advent is over, I believe I'll lay it on my fellow Lutherans.

You said 'it would be good for all us noisy buggers to get together!'

Until recently I sang in a Catholic church [built in 1922] that has two niches on each side of the choir loft. We all thought they were just for decoration. Then I found out that they are an ancient feature, intended for loud instruments such as yours to play in on feast days.

I always wanted to recreate one of those events, but it never happened.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,John Kelly
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM

Mike, yes, I'm certainly interested in getting into playing the early stuff again, even if it's only for the hell of it. Incidentally, do you know Steve Mansfield? He plays flutes, recorders, rauschpfeife (or schreierpfeife, as we are told it should be called) etc. with 'Trebuchet'. I'm not sure where he lives, but it's somewhere over Stockport way, I think. I was thinking it would be good for all us noisy buggers to get together! Pity I haven't got the bass shawm any more. It wasn't mine, but belonged to David Griffith, who played the top lines in Chester Waytes, so it's in Orkney, standing in the corner, waiting......I have got an alto shawm, and a soprano rauschpfeife, and a bass curtal on long term loan, plus the alto and tenor crumhorns and one or two other things.
Don't have any contact details for you; perhaps it's time I actually joined Mudcat! J.K.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:58 PM

1972 sounds right; I was being too lazy to go downstairs to look at my vinyl copy. Very nice album ENGLAND and more polished than FANTASIA LINDUM but I much prefer the latter.
John Kelly, I can't PM you as you are logged in as a guest only. If you still want to play shawms and crumhorns and you don't live too far away then contact me for a bash.
Mike Billington.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:42 PM

For the record, England was 1972 - as was the YouTube footage. Nice to hear it featured on Corry, which is about as English as it gets. Good luck finding England on CD though; it's actually easier (& nicer???) to pick up vinyl originals on Ebay - three on there just now...

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:26 PM

Going back a bit (I don't have daily access to the computer): Mike, It sounds like the later stages of Chester Waytes. Andy was with us for quite a while, and it was through him bumping into Bob and Ann somewhere that they joined us. We played as a 7-piece band, mainly playing Elizabethan/Jacobean town band and consort music. But after a couple of years, David, who played the top lines, got a job in Orkney (he now runs the EMS website), and I went off to do a college course in London. I had been playing the bass lines, so although the group carried on playing together in a more limited way, with me joining them when I was at home, it wasn't the same. Eric got involved at that time, and by the time I finished the course, I found that they had sort of resettled themselves, and I didn't seem to be required. I've not been involved regularly in early music since, although the odd engagement has cropped up, and two or three of us have managed to get together. I miss it. Playing Shawms and sackbuts is almost as much fun as you can have without getting locked up (I don't think they can lock you up for it, can they?).
Les/Mike, I'm on at Chorlton on 14th Feb. J.K.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:05 PM

I keep checking such things fairly regularly but that one slipped in quite nicely! Just the thing for the season... The track is from their 4th album 'England' - always a firm favourite with Bondel heads, though not currently available on CD with any sort convenience. Shame it's a mime though; I await the promised live Italian footage with baited breath.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:59 PM

Hi Deidre
The track's from the last album with John Gladwin before the split in 1974. The album is called ENGLAND and has been re-released on CD. Available, unless they've no stock, from HTD music/Talking Elephant.

Mike.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:43 PM

The YouTube footage is brill - They all had far less hair when I last saw them six or so years ago!. And that's a track I've not heard before.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:36 PM

Jack - ABC PM'd.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

Wow that's great Sedayne. I put Blondel into YouTube a while ago and all I got was Swifts and Swains and some rural stills. This clip of Cantus Firmus was lovely so thanks for that. indeed I remember this coming out as a single back in 1974ish and was amazed to hear it one evening whilst watching Coronation Street. It was coming out of Elsie' Tanner's radio or somthing. In fact I'm on Coronation Street in a week or two; just a walk on but I once had a short speaking part on Hollyoaks. Ah, how are the mighty fallen!
I may be being a bit dim Jack but what do you mean by an ABC of SOY? Do you mean the notes? If so it is played on an alto crumhorn and the first note is an f natural which is all seven fingers down; ie the lowest note on the instrument.

Mike Billington.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM

Thanks for the link, Sedayne. A beautiful setting and an interesting song.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:27 AM

Okay Blondel fans... a special treat:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=H0pddQEVTzc

They've been promising some YouTube footage for a while now, hopefully this is the start of it!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:09 AM

MikeRebec:

If you've not already found it, www.myspace.com/amazingblondel

First item on player? - yep, Siege of Yaddlethorpe!.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:56 AM

I'll work on it Jack and PM you. It may not be today as I'm out this evening but I'll do it asap.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Campin
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM

Got an ABC for the Siege of Yaddlethorpe?

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM

Thanks for that Deidre and I did indeed look up these references. Typically a mention of a beck in Bottesford but no reference to Yaddlethorpe although I do notice that it has an Asda!
Good to see anther Fantasia Lindum fan; I didn't think there were many of us. Also high on my list are Midnight Mushrumps by Gryphon, Complete Dancing Master by Kirkpatrick and Hutchings (all using crumhorns coincidentaly) and the crumhornless Rennaissance of the Celtic Harp by Alan Stivell.
Deidre, Seige of Yaddlethorpe must sound so feeble on recorder; push the boat out, get a crumhorn (alto for this particular piece by the way) and do SOY justice!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:40 PM

MikeRebec:

Try

http://www.benzo.org.uk/scunthorpe.htm

From a quick Google search (Siege of Yaddlethorpe just brought up Amazing Blondel references!).

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:30 PM

MikeRebec: Bottesford and Yaddlethorpe are in close proximity on the outskirts of Scunthrope and the whole area is interlaced with becks!.
I'll see what I can discover and I also put Fantasia Lindum high up on my Desert Island Discs list.

Deirdre

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:26 PM

'). I bought a Moeck but a friend (now it's too late) tells me that possibly that wasn't a wise choice and I should have bought a Moulder.'

========
Pay no attention. Moeck makes many fine instruments. Your friend's naysaying is just another element of the strong trend in today's society of disouraging people from making their own music.

I'm just back from a recorder workshop with Frances Blaker and Letitia Berlin. Frances says that 95% on intonation is attention. In other words, it's not the instrument, it's the player that makes the music beautiful.

It's clear that you are aware of that already, tuttifrutti - just letting the world in general know.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 01:17 PM

As an Amazing Blondel appreciator (Fantasium Lindum is still my favourite LP of all time!) I do know that Yaddlethorpe does indeed exist, as do there many towns ending in 'thorpe but as to whether there was ever a seige I am not so sure. Busy Bee, please do tell me if you ever find out about this "seige".
Indeed, the final track on the album England entitled Lament to the Earl of Bottesford Beck also alludes to a real place; that of Bottesford and I am only assuming that there is a beck that runs through said village/town.
I have not seen the plastic crumhorns for some time but I can recommend Moeck, Eric Moulder (possibly a waiting list) and the Korber's the latter of which can only be found second hand and they do crop up from time to time (in the region of £250 or so for a soprano or alto). Get in touch with the Early Music Shop in Bradford for their newsletter to see if any are available.
Of course the range is more limited than a recorder as Wilfried says; it was intended as a consort instrument back in the rennaissance to be played as part of a soprano/alto/tenor/bass group.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:09 PM

Nice that people are still playing crumhorns. The closest I came was the EMS Glastonbury Pipe, which was in my keeping circa 1983-92 and now resides in the instrumentarium of Misericordia (though without the stash of charas gold-seal I used to keep in the resonator). Listening to a live Amazing Blondel CD (Corner of a Foreign Field...) that turned up recently I'm sorely tempted to seek one out.

I wonder, do they still make those plastic / ABS ones??

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:20 AM

tuttliflutti - congratulations to your acquisition; I always considered it a fine instrument, although its range is more limited than that of a recorder. I played it, alternating with cornamuse and zink (the citizen's surrogate for the trumpet which was reserved for the noblemen), and I had a lot of fun with my friends in band of historical music. It sounds best with a set of contemporary instruments like the ones I mentioned above and a set of recorders. A lot of renaissance songs were the hits of the day and are now still preserved as folksongs (naturally changed a bit alll over the centuries).

Blow and enjoy
Wilfried

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: BusyBee Paul
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

I'm still pondering on the Siege of Yaddlethorpe (Amazing Blondel). Now I live near Scunthorpe I realise that there is actually a Yaddlethorpe but why anyone wanted to lay siege to it I can't imagine!.

Deirdre
(Who plays "Siege of Yaddlethorpe" on her recorder because she 'doesn't have / has never tried to play' a crumhorn).

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:14 PM

I used Crumhorns on a recording,the song was my own song, The Battle Of Bosworth Field recorded on Cheating The Tide,Stephen Cassidy played BassCrumhorn,and Jenny Critchley played Tenor Crumhorn,Martin Carthy played Guitar.Dick Miles Concertina.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Does Mike know that John has played Chorlton Folk Club twice and could easily be booked again? Does John know that Mike lives a mere cock stride from said club? Perhaps some good music might come of this.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:43 PM

Ah thanks John. Although I have been in regular touch with Bob for some years now I didn't realise that he and Ann were in a band called Chester Waytes. was this the band with Andy and Eric? I did actually know about this but didn't know the band name. You live and learn. I shall e-mail him now and castigate him strongly! If he hasn't been castigated already!
Yes, I am aware of the underblowing dropping the pitch and it works beautifully on my bass and, to some extent, on my tenor(doesn't really work on the soprano and alto)but it's not a technique I use much. Pressure is, of course, all important on windcap instruments but when you get to know your instrument well it gets easier.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:21 PM

Yes Mike, Bob and Ann were playing as Cheshire Waits when they joined us in Chester Waytes, which was a seven-piece outfit. I never actually saw them performing as Cheshire Waits, but I think they did a mixture of folk and early music, and used a mixture of traditional and early instruments.
Speaking of fingerings, do you know you can extend the range downwards on the crumhorn by under-blowing? It's a technique that was used in the early days, apparently. I suspect that it may only work on lower - pitched instruments. It works on my tenor, but not on my alto. It probably depends on the instrument, and on the reed, but it's worth the experiment. If you play the normal range down to C (on the tenor), then repeat the fingerings for E, D and C, while reducing the breath pressure, you should get B, A and G. It takes a bit of practice to get the right pressure, and, as I say, it might not work, but give it a go! John Kelly.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:53 AM

There goes my budget...more CDs to buy judging from the above postings...I love early music!

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: tutti flutti
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:33 AM

MikeRebec:

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I find recorder fingering works (mostly). I bought a Moeck but a friend (now it's too late) tells me that possibly that wasn't a wise choice and I should have bought a Moulder. I'm happy with it, the tone is good and it plays in tune providing I get the pressure right - and therein lies the secret, methinks! Compared with the flute it takes much less breath but one heck of a lot of pressure.

It's a lovely instrument to play - great fun - and my dog, who is used to me playing lots of 'blowy' things and usually ignores everything, is very puzzled by it. He sits looking at me with his head on one side and seems very interested in the strange buzzing noises.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: Blowzabella
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 09:01 AM

Scorps (New Scorpion Band) use all sorts of early instruments in their arrangements, too. Some of them are listed here: Whistles, wooden flutes, ney, oboe, cor anglais, piccolo, bansuri, bassoon, curtals, shawms, recorders, serpent, dulcian, Uilleann (Union) pipes, Scots and Northumbrian smallpipes, lowland, highland, old English pipes, mandolin, lauoto, English guitar (18thC), guitars (19thC), banjo, lute, dulcimer, violin, viola, cello, rebecs, renaissance/medieval/baroque violins, hurdy-gurdy, cornet, tenor horn, French horn, trombone, euphonium, tubas, harmonium, concertinas, melodeons, harmonica, bodhran, frame drums, darabuka, bass drum, field drums, bells, cymbals, tambourine, Jug, Jaw Harp.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: MikeRebec
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:33 AM

Hi John

Shame we never met up properly. Bob and Ann played together as the Cheshire Waits (not Chester) and made a nice sound. Rebec did in fact reform a few years ago but never got off the ground as Bob moved on again, this time to New Zealand. Interesting you mention the Indian harmonium as Bill, the percussionist with Madcap, and I play in a duo and we use the harmonium to great effect. We are called Daphne and we use guitars, recorders, Bulgarian and Spanish bagpipes, crumhorns, dumbek and many more exotic instruments. There's a wealth of sounds out there to be explored.

Subject: RE: Crumhorns and early instruments
From: GUEST,John Kelly
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:12 PM

I played crumhorns, shawms, racket and recorders in early music groups for years in the '70's and '80'S. I was also playing in a folk group (The Wakes) during the '70's which used all sorts of instruments, and we naturally explored the possibilities of using crumhorn. It worked well with concertina or Indian harmonium. It's an instrument that works best with other crumhorns, or racket, or regal (an early reed organ), but can work with mixed groups, and does seem to work well with free reeds.
Interesting to see Mike from Rebec is still around. Rebec were doing the rounds at the same time as The Wakes, and we used to see Rebec's name on club guest lists - usually the month before or the month after us, but we never met up. I did see the group finally, at an early music day in Chester, in abot 1981, I think. The other Rebecs, Bob and Anne, later played with The Chester Waytes, of which I was a member. We had a full 'loud band' - shawms/sackbut, as well as recorder and crumhorn consorts. Aye - them were t'days. J.K.