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BS: Fast car worship

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Andy Jackson 18 Nov 07 - 03:14 PM
catspaw49 18 Nov 07 - 03:57 PM
Peace 18 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Nov 07 - 04:14 PM
Peace 18 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM
Dave the Gnome 18 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM
Alice 18 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM
Emma B 18 Nov 07 - 04:47 PM
Peace 18 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM
Alice 18 Nov 07 - 05:07 PM
Emma B 18 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 18 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM
GUEST,Shimrod 18 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM
Jean(eanjay) 18 Nov 07 - 06:00 PM
Emma B 18 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM
catspaw49 18 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM
Jean(eanjay) 18 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM
Richard Bridge 18 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM
Emma B 18 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM
Bobert 18 Nov 07 - 08:16 PM
Richard Bridge 19 Nov 07 - 03:33 AM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 07 - 04:24 AM
George Papavgeris 19 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 04:31 AM
Emma B 19 Nov 07 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Fibula at work 19 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM
Emma B 19 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM
The PA 19 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM
George Papavgeris 19 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM
Grab 19 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 10:51 AM
Jean(eanjay) 19 Nov 07 - 10:53 AM
Jean(eanjay) 19 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM
The PA 19 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,PMB 19 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM
Emma B 19 Nov 07 - 11:52 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM
John MacKenzie 19 Nov 07 - 12:30 PM
Emma B 19 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Nov 07 - 02:44 PM
Dave the Gnome 19 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 19 Nov 07 - 03:29 PM
The PA 20 Nov 07 - 03:23 AM
Fibula Mattock 20 Nov 07 - 04:39 AM
John MacKenzie 20 Nov 07 - 04:48 AM
Fibula Mattock 20 Nov 07 - 05:10 AM
GUEST,PMB 20 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM
GUEST,Fibula at work 20 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM
Grab 20 Nov 07 - 06:48 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 07 - 07:16 AM
GUEST,Jim Martin 20 Nov 07 - 07:38 AM
Emma B 20 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM
jonm 20 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM
number 6 20 Nov 07 - 01:02 PM
Dave the Gnome 20 Nov 07 - 02:15 PM

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Subject: BS: Fast car worship
From: Andy Jackson
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:14 PM

What is the justification for programmes like Top Gear, which pander to the worship of fast cars. This can only encourage so called "joy riding" and the urge to drive faster than safe. Isn't it about time that we got back to the idea of a car being a mode of transport and not a status symbol, come on get a life!
Andy


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 03:57 PM

Is food your passion? How about travel? How about anything?

There are a lot of car worshippers out in the world and they do it for many varied reasons. Nope....Not all of them are ecologically sound but maybe they don't care. On the other hand, some do care and are intereested in alternative fuel cars. Some are simply into overindulgence as you suggest but they overdo it in everything.

Some seem to have gasoline in their veins and you will never understand that type. You're more than entitled to your opinion and you've expressed it well here. Thanks for posting.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:04 PM

If you don't understand, no one will ever be able to explain it to you. In some ways it is much like work that entails certain dangers. Ya do what ya can to lessen the dangers, but in the final analysis the guys and gals who do that kind of work love it. Just because.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:14 PM

I love my fast car,and only use it on high days and holidays. At present it is all warm and cosy in my garage, and will stay there till the spring.
As Peace says, it's something you either love, or don't understand.
It's handy for scaring visiting Greeks too !:)
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM

I will retract what I said about as it relates to this thread. (The statement stands, but not here.) A friend just wrote to tell me that it's not a racing show--like Nascar or the Indie. It's a show that endangers people other than the driver. So, MM, excuse me. Ignorance on my part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM

This can only encourage so called "joy riding"

Like folk music can only encourage murder, incest and robbery?

I'm sure you can find something better to moan about MM. How about Heinz beans causing global warming or 'I'm a celebrity etc.' putting paid to life as we know it?

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:37 PM

It's a show that endangers people other than the driver

It's , but not in the way you think!

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

Hmmmm, how did that happen? Maybe Jeremy Clarkson has ruined my life...

It should say "It's a show about cars. It may endager some people, but not in the way you think!"

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Alice
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:46 PM

My parents and aunt were killed by a guy speeding on his way to work in the morning. 7 MPH in a 35 mph country intersection.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about a UK TV show that glorifies driving faster than the speed limit? Just as bad as drunk drivers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:47 PM

Dave, you are one of the critics of smoking here in that it endangers other people by some peoples selfish actions. Why don't you apply that arguement to people who regularly endanger others by breaking the speed limit on our roads?

Well personally I agree with the Guardian comment by George Monbiot
"They call themselves libertarians; I think they're antisocial bastards"

".......the rise of the antisocial bastards who believe they should be allowed to do what they want, whenever they want, regardless of the consequences. I believe that while there are many reasons for the growth of individualism in the UK, the extreme libertarianism now beginning to take hold here begins on the road. When you drive, society becomes an obstacle. Pedestrians, bicycles, traffic calming, speed limits, the law: all become a nuisance to be wished away. The more you drive, the more bloody-minded and individualistic you become. The car is slowly turning us, like the Americans and the Australians, into a nation that recognises only the freedom to act, and not the freedom from the consequences of other people's actions."


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 04:50 PM

Well, I opened my mouth without all the facts. Sorry to all. I thought it was a racing show. Personally, I deal with too many results of people who 'stunt' or drive dangerously, and I jus' don't like it. My apologies to anyone I have offended. I am now OFF this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:06 PM

Rubbish, we are talking about a TV car show, and all the stunts they do are off road on race tracks and airfields.
Only a kill joy would try to blame all the idiots on the road, on one TV show.
Accidents do happen and will continue to happen, and no amount of molly coddling and tut tutting will change that.
I don't even need to ask if you disapproving people want to see the end of all motor racing, because I know the answer.
The governments statement that speed is the largest factor in road accidents is disproved by their own figures published last week. As was stated earlier tonight, only 4% of the accidents outside built up areas, on country roads etc, are attributable to speeding, what causes the other 96%? Hedgehogs??
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Alice
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:07 PM

That should have been 70 MPH, not 7 in my post... OOOOPs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:11 PM

I have nothing against motor racing as long as it stays on the tracks and not on the roads.

THIS is the attitude I object to.....

"many commuters are now switching to bicycles ... can I offer five handy hints to those setting out on a bike for the first time. 1. Do not cruise through red lights. Because if I'm coming the other way, I will run you down, for fun. 2. Do not pull up at junctions in front of a line of traffic. Because if I'm behind you, I will set off at normal speed and you will be crushed under my wheels ... "

a quote from Jeremy Clarkson, the presenter of Top Gear, after the London bombings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:42 PM

BBC News carries Top Gear on TV cable in Canada. The show on caravanning is hilarious. You will never go caravanning after seeing it. Watch it all on your computer. The idiots on the show shouldn't be trusted with model T Fords, let alone Lamborghinis, Aston Martins- or caravans or- anything with wheels, but that is part of the fun. Don't miss it. Go to this website and search around:

Top Gear

Aston versus Train for a ridiculous contest! Good line- "In France, If the police come alongside, it means you should go faster."

Miskin Man has no sense of humo(u)r.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:48 PM

Most of the show is played for laughs, and that includes the jokey remarks made by Jeremy Clarkson quoted above. If you had seen the mischievous grin on Clarkson's face when he said it, you'd never have taken it seriously for one minute.
Only po faced eedjits like George Mombiot would take it seriously, and I bet he wasn't watching it either.
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Jeremy Clarkson likes to upset people - it's what he does. Some of the people he upsets are nice, genuine people with a valid point of view ... others are pompous, sanctimonious gits who deserve to be upset. I am, of course, totally convinced that no contributors to this thread fall into the latter category ...


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:00 PM

what causes the other 96%? Hedgehogs??

My "other half" has played hell with me in the past for swerving for hedgehogs and rabbits.

I don't go fast enough now to have to need to swerve for anything - I have a 2 seater Smart car and I would much rather have that than any sports car. Mind you - he complains if I drive too slowly as well, says that that is also dangerous.

I enjoy a speed where I feel relaxed and at least my car is so small that it is easy for others to overtake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM

Here is a recent article by George Mombiot.
Fast and Loose

He trounces the anti-speed camera campaign with genuine statistics as opposed to headline grapping distortions.

Now anyone is free to call him a "po faced eedjit" but there does seem a tendency by some people to resort to "name calling" in the absence of any actual well reasoned arguement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:17 PM

"I enjoy a speed where I feel relaxed and at least my car is so small that it is easy for others to overtake!"

That's a joke right? If not you're truly kidding yourself. One of the most common problems in driving comes from the lack of depth perception that is not at all unusual in the population. Very few have really excellent depth perception and a smaller than normal car presents a different optical print than what many drivers are accustomed to seeing. A small car going slowly can be very easily thought to be not at all where it actually is!

Also, going substantially slower has its own problems as well. Combine it all and you're not nearly as safe as you may think!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM

My husband says that as well!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

Why is it that the vegetarian motorists always want the meat eaters to consider them, but are never prepared to consider any other point of view?

When the joy has been taken out of everything, when we walk rather than run in case we might bump into anyone, when all cars do 30 mph and no more (and it takes for ever to get anywhere), when the "naughty boys corner" for those who want to hunt the unapproved harmony rather than sing the solo line from "Rise up singing" has been banned, when no-one smokes, drinks, swears, or lusts after the gender of their preference....

Why then we may not live to be 100, but it will bloody well seem like it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Oh pleaseeee! I don't drive at a steady 30mph except in built-up areas and I get as frustrated with drivers who drive very slowly as well. I'm a life long omnivore and a smoker nearly as long!

I may admit to one or other two legal "vices" also but I DO manage to drive without drinking or speeding (it ain't that difficult guys), and I even manage to restrain myself from inflicting GBH on the folks who transparently deserve it :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 08:16 PM

Hey, I love fast cars... Wish I still owned one but I don't but...

...back in '64 my dad was workin' for Ford Motor Co. and I had me an AC Cobra with Ford Motor Co.'s backing to drag race it in Mid Atlantic drag strips for promotional purposes... Oh, twist my arm... Please, hust twist me arm... This arrangement lasted about 3 months and this car and I were inseperable... I drove it to high school and then on the weekends to various drag strips where I would go up against the loacl Corvette here and dust him... It's best times was 11.9 seconds in the 1/4 mile at 112 mph.... Now that was fun... I loved the speed...

I reckon that I have slowed down a tad over the years and while I'd love to take one more pass in that AC Cobra it ain't gonna happen...

BTW, I lost my liecnse in the Cobra for strret racing and went from driving it to high school to the "leather express"... This is why I am a bluesman... LOL...

But really, I'd love to take it down a quarter mile drag strip just one more time...

Speed is cool...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:33 AM

Hell, Bobert, get over to Turbobricks (www.turbobricks.com): there are guys there beating that in 7 series Volvo estates. Have you seen the "drift" Volvo on Youtube? Apparently there are Swedes getting over 1000 bhp out of the redblock engine (dunno for how long though).


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:24 AM

Why don't you apply that arguement to people who regularly endanger others by breaking the speed limit on our roads?


What makes you think I don't EmmaB? We are talking about a TV program for heavens sake! I have no issue with a TV program that shows smoking, speeding or murdering innocent baby badgers. Doesn't mean I agree with any of the said activities.

It's TV - it isn't real life, just like mudcat isn't. Trust me.

D.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:25 AM

Oh, I thought this was a thread about drive-in churches.

And my trousers were brown to begin with, Giok!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 04:31 AM

Facts!! Well here are some inconvenient ones to chew on.

Based on it's first survey of the causes of accidents (in 2005), the Department of Transport (DfT) has revealed that exceeding the speed limit is a factor in only 2% of injury crashes involving drivers over the age of 25. For younger drivers, aged 17-25, it is 6%, and for the youngest, aged 17-19, it is 8%.
Travelling too fast for the conditions, rather than exceeding the legal speed limit, is a factor in five, 11 and 14% of crashes respectively.
These are the government's own figures supplied by the DfT to a parliamentary,transport sub-committee.
In September 2006 the DfT revealed that only 5% of accidents involve a vehicle exceeding the speed limit.
Mr 'Reasonable' Mombiot in an article in the Guardian (where else?) last Tuesday, wrote that all critics of official policies, including road safety experts, and serving police officers, are nothing more than "swaggering petrolheads".
Yes he sounds like a balanced and reasonable person doesn't he?
However like smoking, I don't suppose that knowing the facts will change some people's minds.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:03 AM

"Excessive speed as a contributory factor to personal injury road accidents"

Transport statistics Road Safety Department for Transport


This report analyses contributory factor data compiled between 1999 and 2002.

For each accident one precipitating and up to four contributory factors are recorded by the police.

In 2002, excessive speed was a contributory factor to 12% of slight, 19% of serious and 30% of fatal accidents for which contributory factor data was available

Excessive speed is one of 54 possible contributory factors.
It was identified as contributing to 12% of all accidents and 28% of fatal accidents between 1999 and 2002 where contributory factors were recorded.
In the case of fatal accidents, excessive speed was the most frequently recorded factor.

Among car accidents excessive speed was most frequently cited in accidents precipitated by young drivers.

The proportion of accidents on rural roads associated with excessive speed was twice that of accidents on urban roads. Excessive speed also contributed to a slightly higher proportion of accidents on minor than on major roads.

The report points out that excessive speed can be interpreted as both exceeding the speed limit or driving at excessive speed for the conditions / location.
Furthermore excessive speed is not easy to determine after the event and may be implied by other contributory factors such as , following too close, aggressive driving, and careless reckless and thoughtless behaviour while in a hurry.

The percentage of accidents in which excessive speed is explicitly cited as being a contributory might therefore underestimate its importance.

Giok you failed to quote the rest of the most recent report!!

Covering most accidents that took place in 2005, the report said that exceeding the speed limit was a contributory factor in only 5% of accidents, and going too fast for the conditions was a contributory factor in 10% of accidents.

However, speed was a factor in 26% of all fatal accidents. Also, eight times more male than female drivers or riders involved in road accidents were reported as exceeding the speed limit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,Fibula at work
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:32 AM

I love cars so it's a pity that my 'new' car (a 1980 Citroen Dyane) is currently sitting in a field in Norn Ireland awaiting restoration, with "not scrap" painted on the back in Massey Ferguson red.

Top Gear is hilarious and interesting and is the best thing on TV on a Sunday night. It has never made me speed - possibly because my car doesn't actually go, but also because I drive like a granny (though I've been drag racing twice, but both times in tiny engine cars).

I am getting a ratchet set for Christmas, and a 13mm spanner. Wooo! And I'm driving to Mongolia - and back - again next year in a pimped up Renault Clio. And I'm ging to go as fast as I can on the autobahn (probably 65mph).

Four wheels good, two legs bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

nice anti-speeding campaign from the Aussies :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:12 AM

I quoted the facts regarding speed which was the point in dispute. What you quoted in you effort to accelerate the progress of you terminal smugness, is complementary to what I posted, and not contradictory.
It is your regular habit to try to discredit me, and many of my posts. So far all you have succeeded in doing is alienating other people.
As far as driving is concerned, at least I don't drive my car into water that is too deep for it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: The PA
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM

We've always watched Top Gear and never for one moment thought that we were supposed to take anything Clarkson says seriously. Its just ligh-hearted entertainment, I dont think they're responsible for the way in which everyone drives. There are loads bad drivers out there who dont watch TG because they cant stand Clarkson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:12 AM

I watched TG last night - it was one of the better ones, I thought. The motorhome race in particular had me and Nessie in stitches. It meant that this morning I had to concentrate extra hard to ignore the subliminal messages and avoid running down schoolkids or budging cyclists into the fields for a laugh, but it was worth it. I didn't cross any red lights or go over the speed limit either. Zero points, I'm afraid... Clearly the TG's messages are just not getting through to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:14 AM

Incidentally George, the motor home Richard Hammond destroyed, was one that I used to own some 14 years. It was quite sad to watch.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Grab
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:40 AM

Isn't it about time that we got back to the idea of a car being a mode of transport and not a status symbol

I particularly enjoyed the words "back to" in that sentence. A challenge then: find me ONE TIME in history where quality of transportation owned - be it horse, carriage or car - was NOT a status symbol. (Hint: No such time exists.) Sorry Andy, but this phrase betrays a longing for some mythical "Golden Age" which any cursory examination history shows simply never existed.

As far as I can see, most really serious accidents seem to feature trucks. Not only are they on the road for more hours, but when a truck driver screws up, things go wrong in a VERY big way. Also trucks are a major cause of congestion on roads, partly because of their sheer numbers, but also because of the limiters which cause them to overtake each other at half a mile an hour, thereby blocking the road for other faster traffic and causing tailbacks.

Emma, I have to say JC's comments on cyclists are (a) obviously tongue-in-cheek, and (b) too close to wish-fulfillment. Cyclists who stop at a red light, who have adequate lights and who look behind them before turning are in a massive minority. I don't mind cyclists nipping up the inside if it's safe, but there's all too many who try squeezing up the inside of slow-moving traffic, or up the inside of stationary traffic just as the lights turn green - if they get mashed against a lamp-post, it's emphatically not the car-driver's fault. Yes, there are also plenty of car drivers who aren't considerate towards cyclists, but they're vastly outnumbered by cyclists who simply don't display concern for their own safety.

FWIW, the latest Top Gear had Jeremy Clarkson in absolute raptures over a tiny 8bhp bubblecar from the 1960s. Those one-dimensional petrol-heads, eh? It also featured a drag-race between a Bugatti Veyron and a Eurofighter Typhoon. Lovely visuals and very petrol-head, but let's face it, not exactly something you're going to replicate yourself down the M1, is it?

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:51 AM

And they did it on a runway not on the road. I really would like to know on what basis Peace's correspondent based the remark about TG being "a show that endangers people other than the driver". I can see no way they can justify such a remark.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 10:53 AM

I want to swap my Smart car!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:05 AM

A sports version as well! Wow!

I could still have a sports car.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: The PA
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM

Richard Bridge - whats a vegetarian motorist, how do we tell them from meat eating motorists and what have they got to do with anything?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:24 AM

A vegetarian motorist is one who doesn't like roast meat, especially when the meat is human and it's roasted by burning petrol.

I personally find it irksome to obey certain laws, like the one that says I have to pay for what I get from shops. Maybe everybody should be allowed to choose which laws they want to obey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 11:52 AM

"It is your regular habit to try to discredit me, and many of my posts. So far all you have succeeded in doing is alienating other people."

No it isn't Giok! I have never made any personal attack on you (although you have made a few on me) but I will continue to point out inacuracies in anyone's statements and omissions of salient points deliberatly or carelessly!


"As far as driving is concerned, at least I don't drive my car into water that is too deep for it!"

Yes I WAS overwhelmed when a river broke through a bridge in the floods earlier this year. It was a very frightening experience that still gives me the odd nightmare, maybe one day I will be able to treat it with glib humour too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM

Just in case I might be accused of selective quotes, here is the source of my quote. As can be seen, it was not edited or amended in any factual manner by me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:30 PM

Chapter and verse


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

thanks for the link Giok. It is an article by Peter Hall of the "Safe Speed" organization which certainly helps to understand why certain relevant data was omitted.

such as....... from the same report.....

3.4 Over three quarters of fatal accidents involving drivers under 20 were judged to be speed related. For the 20-24 year age group it was about two thirds, dropping to below half by the age of 30 years. These accidents show high levels of speeding, alcohol involvement and recklessness. 68% of occupant fatalities in the 16-20 year age group were with drivers who were slightly older (mean age 21 years), who were speeding or who were being deliberately reckless and racing (36%).

see Paul Smith and "Safe Speed"


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 02:44 PM

A mechanic working at the local GM talked be into buying his big block Olds Cutlass. It was a year old and looked like fun. On a drag strip it would go from 0 to 60 mph in about 5 seconds. But on the road any irregularities made the suspension give up and chatter the car off the road. It had a big 4-bbl, tromp on the pedal and one could literally watch the gas gage go down. At normal speeds it wasn't bad because only two throats opened on the carburator. Also a poor car for Alberta with its salted roads in winter- the floor of the trunk rusted through and I lost some tools. Those who got that big block but upgraded the suspension had a pretty good car, but mine was a dog.

A lucky hit on the stock market (at the time was there anyone in Alberta who didn't gamble on questionable stocks?) and I ordered a 1972 BMW CS 3.0 from the local dealer. Now that was a great car- not for drag, but excellent for the highway and it tracked well on mountain roads.
A trip to Georgia took me through Montana which had no speed limits on highways at the time, and I was able to wheel along at a smooth 125 mph. An ideal car for the prairies where everything is far apart. Not bad in crowded highway situations either, we left central Georgia in the morning and we ate dinner in Montreal that evening.
A couple of years later I was in Kiel, Germany, and rented a BMW with the same mechanics, but a sedan. It hadn't been strangled like those for the North American market, and when I touched the pedal to leave the lot, I spun the wheels. Of course I had to drive a stretch of autobahn, but that not pleasant- going along at 100, a car would come up rapidly from behind and blink its lights, meaning move over or get rammed.

The car kept its value; in 1995 I sold it to my son for 150% of original cost and he was able to include it on his investment portfolio. Still near perfect- never run on salted roads in winter.

Now I drive an old suv, hauling stuff and dogs back and forth when I visit the kids.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:25 PM

All the stuff about speed and safety is perfectly valid but...

IT'S STILL AN F-IN' TV PROGRAM!

Why are we talking as if Messers Clarkson, Hammond and May make one iota of difference to road safety? Another big hint coming here (Love that one, Grab) - THEY DON'T!

The premise of this thread, started by Miskin Man, who has remained remarkably quiet since, is that the show somehow encourages people to drive too quickly. Well, it may affect some comeplete tossers in back to front baseball caps with all the resolve of a geneticaly modified sprout, but normal people are beyond such things.

I don't know how many different ways I can say it.

Yoda syle? TV show, it is. Makes difference to how we drive, none.

Any better?

BTW - Vegetarian drivers are the ones in Ciroen 2CV's and Fiat Cinquecentos. Run into a rabbit and the car comes off worse...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 Nov 07 - 03:29 PM

Any day I expect to see one of those Smart? cars squashed like a pancake between two compacts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: The PA
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 03:23 AM

Dave Polshaw - Vegetarian Motorists also drive smellie great Range Rovers and dont really give a toss about running over rabbits - I dont approve of factory farming but rabbits are vermin. Please dont generalise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:39 AM

Ha! I resent that about the 2CVs! I'm a recovering vegetarian and I used to drive a Seicento. We're pimping our 2CV and Dyane desert raid style and intend driving round the world in them in 2009 (slight problem getting from Russia to Alaska, but we're working on that). Once those heaps of tin have their new superstrength galvanised chassis there'll be no stopping us, even when hit by monster rabbits.

(Little need for SUVs, I think - tiny cars handle well offroad but admittedly can't tow much... though a diesel Panda 4x4 would have a go!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 04:48 AM

Dear Tombola Shattock, a Fiat unfit Panda of any description would become a pile of rust, long before completion of such a lunatic hazardous undertaking!
Adieu
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 05:10 AM

Ahhhh Mr MacKenzie! With my very own eyes I have seen them drive through rivers and over big mountains. They aren't as good as Nissan Micras though... if you could get a 4WD Micra I'd 'ave it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:14 AM

The original (legendary) specification for the 2CV was that it had to be able to carry a farmer, a pig and a basket of eggs to market across a ploughed field in the Pyrenees. The Chelsea Tractor carries on this tradition- it is designed to carry a swine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,Fibula at work
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:19 AM

boom boom!

Yeah, apparently it is impossible to roll a 2CV when driving forwards. I like that in a car.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Grab
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 06:48 AM

Emma, per your post and PM, I'm not saying that inappropriate speed *isn't* a problem. If you're driving too fast for the conditions, you're not safe.

But the conditions might be a twisty country road in the rain where 20mph is right on the limit, or it might be a completely empty three-lane motorway at 4am where there's little reason to have a speed limit at all. And the conditions also depend on the car you're driving - a sports car at 100mph has plenty of scope for manoevring and braking, whereas an SUV at 100mph isn't going to do anything but carry on at that speed. So you drive based on whatever is the limiting factor for your situation. 30mph in towns is fine, because that's about the limit for decent situational awareness.

The real problem is always either inadequate skill, inadequate attention or errors of judgement. Inappropriate speed for the conditions is a by-product of one or more of those. Other by-products are swerving without warning, failure to steer correctly into a corner, and loss of control during excessive braking. After that, the results will depend on what you're driving and what anyone you run into is driving (if they are). But the best plan is not to get into the situation in the first place, instead of relying on mitigating features of your vehicle!

Yes, cyclists and pedestrians are much more vulnerable when drivers get it wrong, and I'm not excusing the actions of dangerous drivers in any way. When you're on the road, it's your responsibility to drive safely for the conditions.

My point was that this doesn't give cyclists carte blanche to blame all accidents on the driver. For a similar example, consider a recent UK anti-speeding TV spot, showing a teenage girl running out into traffic from between two parked cars. The message is supposed to be "don't drive fast, because it's the driver's fault". The message to me was "no sympathy - it's entirely the girl's fault, and the driver wouldn't have had a chance at any speed". It's unreasonable and unjust to expect the entire world to wrap itself in cotton wool just so that people can behave irresponsibly. My experience is that the majority of car drivers *do* take due care around cyclists, whereas the majority of cyclists *don't* take due care of their own safety.

Clearly, Clarkson was exaggerating this for effect. Yes, this won't be funny for cyclists and pedestrians who've been involved in accidents with cars. But for a driver like myself who knows that most trips through town, at some point they'll have to brake sharply to avoid a cyclist who's turned without warning or who's appeared out of the night wearing dark clothes with no lights and no reflectors on their bike, it's voicing their deep frustration. My wife is a fairly keen cyclist and she shares my frustration, because she knows that these self-indulgent idiots are giving cyclists generally a bad name. If the idiots were in the minority then fine, but sadly the idiots are in the majority when it comes to cycling, because there's absolutely no barrier to buying a bike and heading out on the road without knowing what you're doing.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:16 AM

Graham, I taught my kids that there are two speed limits for every stretch of road- the legal one, and the sensible one. The rule is very simple- drive at or below the lower of these. Yes, there are many occasions when it might seem sensible to go faster than the limit, that is designed for worst- case situations (or sometimes by an incompetent traffic engiineer, or to satisfy a corrupt local politician)- but are you such a brilliant driver that you can be sure that NOW is safe? Isn't it just the arrogance that seems to overtake everybody when they get in a car that says, look, I know better than that sign?

From April to October, one motorcyclist a week on average manages to do himself a serious mischief on the roads around here, purely through driving in a manner which is exciting and nonconformist, but mnot necessarily good Darwinian practice. I don't really mind, they are entitled to be authors of their own fate. But sometimes they (and other motorists) take someone else with them- memnorably one who smashed into a crocodile of learning- disabled kids as they were being shepherded across the road.

If any other form of transport killed ten people a day, and seriously injured a hundred, it would be stopped until the problems were sorted out. Remember when the railways were speed limited for six months after just four people died in an accident?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 07:38 AM

That wasn't through speeding drivers, it was safety irregularities with track/signalling maintenance!


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:11 PM

I suppose like a politician I should have "declared an interest"

Just over a year ago the partner of a friend, an experienced cyclist and active member of a cycling organization as well as no mean guitarist, was knocked over by a young man "joy" riding in a fast car in city streets.
I don't know whether the car was simply too powerful for him to control at that kind of speed or whether he genuinely believed that it was "fun" to mow down a lone cyclist on his way to work.

Although in a coma for some time our friend eventually regained consciouness but sustained such severe brain damage that he has to spend the rest of his life in a nursing home.

Of course I realize that no single TV programme is responsible for the attitudes of boy racers or pistonheads but I do feel that the deliberately jokey style of the programme and Clarkeson's attitude and statements, that are readily quoted in some media without any indication as to their intended seriousness or not, just offer comfortable smug validity to the "I can do what I want on the roads" school of driving.


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: jonm
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 12:13 PM

I've had sparks from the running boards of a 2CV while cornering. Yes, they cannot be rolled. By the way, that was on a circuit.

I have always felt there is more thrill and skill in driving a slow car quickly and safely than in driving a very fast car above normal speeds. To get some sort of challenge to your driving ability in terms of planning your cornering and braking, judging distances and keeping momentum through a series of bends, you could be doing 50mph in an old 2CV or 150mph in a new Porsche. In the former case, there are admittedly times when you have to back off due to the inadequacies of drum brakes and narrow tyres. In the latter, there are few roads which offer suitable sight lines to know the road remains unobstructed for a safe stopping distance at that kind of speed, even with exotic brakes. It's when the unexpected happens around the next bend that accidents occur.

Basically, all road accidents result from excessive vehicle speed in relation to the driver's competence and physical condition and the prevailing road and surrounding conditions. However, many of them would still occur at lower speeds, due to the factors mentioned. There are some drivers who are an accident waiting to happen at any speed.

What about the removal of all speed limits? People would then have to make informed decisions about their own driving and competence and the conditions around them. Currently, there is an attitude that if the limit on a motorway is 70mph, then it is ALWAYS safe to travel at 80mph. The reality is that sometimes it might be safe to travel at 180mph and sometimes 35mph would be unsafe. A small minority will never get the hang of it, but if we could get them to take each other out without killing any of the rest of us.....

The Dutch have adopted a similar approach to urban signage, removing the lot and letting driver/cyclist/pedestrian courtesy and forethought govern rights of way at junctions. After some teething difficulties, but no injury accidents, the urban networks in question are now flowing more freely and journey times have gone down in comparison with the old-style forest of signs, white paint and traffic lights.

Do we as a driving nation have the skills to apply them to a situation like that, though?


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: number 6
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 01:02 PM

Vegetarian drivers here in Canada can't afford Range Rovers.


They drive Subarus.


biLL


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Subject: RE: BS: Fast car worship
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Nov 07 - 02:15 PM

PA - How's the sense of humour bypass doing?


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