Song on a taboo subject?

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Rowan
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:26 PM

the Australian "The Drover's Boy" was written by Ted Egan, who is now Chief Administrator of the Northern Territory.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 10:04 PM

There's the Australian "The Drover's Boy" about the relationship between a drover and his aborigine jin. Not same sex, but very much taboo at the time - heck, even now in some circles.

Not trad, but I am bringing out "Toni with an i" in Feb - a sympathetic look at a transgender case.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,spb-cooperator
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 07:26 PM

Hi Wysiwyg

Re: Songs about cannibalism

The ship in distress (as opposed to the ship in disorder which is about blocked heads)
The Rhyme of the Nancy b (WS Gilbert)
The song with Little Boy Billy - I can't remember what it is called
The is anpther well known one... I'm wracking my brains to remember the title.


Ahoj

Steve

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:31 PM

Any songs about bloody useless Labour governments?

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 04:12 PM

Way back when, Mudcatter "Murray" posted a bit about resources for bawdy ballads HERE when posting about the Ball of Kerrymuir, which Janice mentioned. (I realise it's got tons more verses which have nothing to do with possible lesbian affairs.)

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:38 PM

Maybe not quite what you're looking for, but here's a broadside at the Bodleian A looking-glass for wanton Women - "By the Example and Expiation of Mary Higgs, who was executed on the 18th July, 1637 for commiting the odious sin of Buggery, with her Dog, who was hanged on a Tree the same day, neer the place of Execution; showing her penitent behavious and last speech", Tune of In Summertime.

Life was curious (and hazardous)!

Mick

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: oggie
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:14 PM

The Men They Couldn't Hang released "Come here little boy" some 10 or 15 years ago which dealt with child abuse and related issues. Not trad of course but a powerful song an a taboo subject and almost impossible to sing pretty well anywhere. I tried once and got told in no uncertain terms that it was "not appropriate and made the audience uncomfortable"

Steve

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 02:09 PM

Can't think of any songs directly about same-sex relationships, but there are certainly traditional songs which hint at attraction between members of the same sex or more often than not, via that handiest of plot devices, members of the opposite sex dressed up.

Two examples that spring to mind are the Female Drummer, who's found out by a young girl who falls in love with her (the song doesn't state exactly how she finds out), and The Famous Flower of Serving Men, where the King is "beguiled" by his serving man (who of course is really a woman)

There's also Willie o' Winsbury, whose beauty gets him off the hook when Janet's father admits he'd be his bedfellow too (if he was a woman of course, which he's not)

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 01:51 PM

Not a ballad, but my friend Pete has the opening of "the blues you don't really want to hear the rest of." It goes like this:


Oh, I've got a good woman,
But my man don't want her 'round.


Bob

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 01:39 PM

This subject has certainly been celebrated in Ballad. If the material isn't generally known, it is probably because of either the discretion of, or the censorship of collectors. --check this siteHomosexuality in Eighteenth Century England--which contains a number of broadside ballads, including "Molly Exalted","A Woman's Complaint to Venus", and "The Game at Flats".

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 12:40 PM

But obviously, homosexuality and cannibalism were topics that would not be sung in 'polite' company much, and were not the sort of thing you'd admit to knowing to a collector....and the few mentioned seem to be mostly comic - making fun of the activity.

Besides...who would you sing them TO?

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 12:37 PM

"A Cannibal Maid and Her Hottentot Blade"

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM

Speaking of taboos, where are the songs about cannibalism?

~S~

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Saro
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 12:22 PM

Greg, I was referring to traditional ballads, and British Ballads just to be more specific.
And yes, we discussed Willie Of Winesbury and Our Captain cried All Hands, and the Handsome Cabin Boy. There's nothing that I've come across that is really powerful like, for example, Sheath and Knife.

Dick Greenhaus suggests in another thread that
"I suspect that homosexuality disturbed our forebears more than things like rape, murder and incest did. "   Maybe that is the reason for the omission of this topic from ballds....

Any other ideas...
Saro

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:58 AM

Ah, found this old reference posted by Janice in NJ in one of the other threads. Not what I was thinking of, but still maybe fits the original category:

And in The Ball of Kerrymuir there are these lines:

Oh, the Ball, the Ball of Kerrymuir,
Where your wife and my wife were firkin on the floor.

Presumably they were firkin each other, although they simply could have been separately firkin other parties, male or female. The lesbian possibilities add to the humor.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:48 AM

The Handsome Cabin Boy maybe as in she was bisexual or the captain raped her, yeah. I thought there was one more specifically lesbian.

I cannot remember what all came up in the other threads. Have to go take a look:

Historical gay/lesbian/bisexual songs and, there's some interestng related discussion in Lesbians, Gays and folk music.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM

Except the handsome cabin boy was a GIRL and the captain knew it.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:38 AM

There are a few ballads that sort of hint around the edges of it, if you've a mind to read it that way:

"'Daughter, O daughter - daughter,' cried the king,
'Of guilt you may be free.
For if I were a woman, as I am a man,
My bedfellow he would be.'"

-Thomas of Winesbury


"Down on the ground she fell like one a-dying,
Tearing her arms abroad, sobbing and signing.
There's no believing men; not you're own brother -
So girls, if you must love, love one another."

- "The Captain Cried All Hands"

Dan

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:29 AM

I remember there are other threads on same sex relationships in folksong in general, rather than ballads. I won't post more till it's established whether we are just talking about ballads.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:27 AM

The Handsome Cabin Boy

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:22 AM

Wasn't there one about two women pirates? Not Bonney & Reade . I thought there was one about two women one of whom followed the other to sea?

Subject: Lyr Add: FRIGGIN' IN THE RIGGIN'
From: Rasener
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:16 AM

Friggin in the riggin,
Friggin in the riggin,
Friggin in the riggin,
There's nothing else to do.

Twas back in `69,
We left the Black Ball Line,
The crew did cry as we went by,
For we'd left our mates behind.

Twas back in `63,
When the captain he went to sea,
Born of a whore, was cast ashore,
A son of the beach was he.
A cook whose name was Davey,
Was cashiered from the Navy,
He dipped the bread inside the head,
And served it up as gravy.

The bosun's mate was Andy
A Portsmouth man and randy,
He used to cool his favorite tool
In a glass of the skipper's brandy.

The cabin boy was chipper,
A nasty little nipper.
He lined his ass with broken glass
And circumsised the skipper.

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:15 AM

Interesting question. Using "ballad" in the technical sense, there don't seem to be any that spring to mind. As regards folksongs, there are doubtless loads. But by the nature of the song collecting and publishing proicess, they probably got omitted from "Folksongs to be sung in schools" etc!

Subject: RE: Song on a taboo subject?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 11:12 AM

"Zakhmi Dil", the Pathan War March, sung by British troops on one of the 19th century Afghan wars to these words:

There's a boy across the river
with a bottom like a peach
Alas I can not swim!

(thanx to Lewis Redstock's book for that).

The tune may be the original of "The Quartermaster's Store" - I've no idea what the Pushtu words are. The tune is now a standard in the military pipe repertoire.

Subject: Trad Ballads on taboo subjects?
From: Saro
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 10:45 AM

This is a serious enquiry, resulting from a very good question which was asked at a recent ballad forum at Lewes Arms. There are traditional ballads about all sorts of subjects which at some time in history might have been regarded as "taboo"   Ballads tell of incest, murder of the most gruesome kind, infanticide etc. However, we could not think of any ballads which deal with same sex relationships.

Does anyone know any? If so, what and where are they? If not, I'd be interested in any suggestions as to why there should be this gap...

Looking forward to some interesting discussion.

Saro