BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:49 PM

Rhubarb-Strawberry. And a pot of strong tea.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

Yam (Dioscorea; species sativa or 'cultivated yam' from the Philippines, D. batatas or 'Chinese yam'). The word probably is not African; it originated with the Spanish igname or Portuguese inname, applied to the tuber found by them in the East Indies. The name is probably Asian in origin, but ultimate origin unknown. In print in 1557, and into English in 1588, in Hickok, in "Frederick's Voyage to the East Indies." "...like our turnops but sweete and very good to eate." Hakluyt (1588) in his Voyage, spoke of bread made with it and preferred it to the bread they had; called inany, Italian ignamy. In 1598 they were mentioned from Guinea by Parker, "as big as a man's leg." In 1600, Pory also mentioned them from Africa, and said in the West Indies they were called batate (potato). White and purple types were being discussed by 1699. (Yams and sweet potatoes aleady being confused??)
In 1657, they were being planted in Barbados, Ligon spelt it "yeams." The type cultivated in the West Indies was originally from the East Indies, but the American type called 'Louisiana' and most common probably is a selection from west Africa.
There seems to be room for argument on some of the history of the tuber.
Some authors argue for African origin of the word; I won't swear by either theory, but lean towards the Asian origin, since early usage (OED) leans that way. Webster's mentions the Fulani word, nyami, to eat.
The tubers are found from Australia through the southern Asian region to Africa. Small American members of the genus were used in medicines.

The sweet potato is unrelated to the yam, Ipomoea batatas, a tropical vinelike plant, same family as the morning glory. Rather widespread.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

a pie poem...attributed to various, including Ben Franklin, but more likely anon.


I LOATHE, abhor, detest, despise,
Abominate dried-apple pies.
I like good bread, I like good meat,
Or anything that's fit to eat;
But of all poor grub beneath the skies,
The poorest is dried apple pies.
Give me the toothache, or sore eyes,
But don't give me dried apple pies.
The farmer takes his gnarliest fruit,
'Tis wormy, bitter, and hard, to boot;
He leaves the hulls to make us cough,
And don't take half the peeling off.
Then on a dirty cord 'tis strung
And in a garret window hung,
And there it serves as roost for flies,
Until it's made up into pies.
Tread on my corns, or tell me lies,
But don't pass me dried-apple pies.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

ñame- yam. Should have posted the old Spanish word earlier.

When we find a good plump yam, we microwave the greased tuber on high for about 5 minutes per pound, stopping to turn it over at the halfway point. If not cooked enough, add a couple of minutes more time. It is much better to add time incrementally rather than ruining it by cooking too long.
Remove the skin and mix in butter. Yum!
It seems a sacrilege to make pie with good yams when butter is sufficient for a princely dish. Serve with a slice of smoke-cured ham and biscuits or corn bread- hard to beat!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM

Bill, isn't that sposed to be HORSE-apple pies?

Hardi's fave is persimmon pudding which is sort of a cake, sort of a pie.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:17 AM

Here's another children's rhyme that includes mention of various types of pies:

blueberry raspberry huckelberry pie who will be your lucy guy is it a b c d e f g h ect..(when they get to z start over and when they stop whatever letter they stop on you name a guy)
-Shayla;May 14, 2005 http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM

Speaking of American pie, you would have to pull a masterful stroke indeed to surpass or even equal the pie Maeve produced for the party at Sinsulls while I was visiting, I understand it was made from apples grown in Marys garden but it had everything I like in apple pie. It had a delightful pastry top the fruit was firm,not soggy, and tart, not too sweet with a wonderful subtle flaour of an apple variety I didnt recognise all in all a Masterpiece, for which I thank her.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Neil D
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

The probable originator of pieing as a political act was Aron Kay [4], a Yippie, who pied singer and anti-gay-rights activist Anita Bryant in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1977 (audio footage of the incident is included in the Chumbawamba song Just Desserts, a homage to the concept of pieing).[4] Kay subsequently pied, among many others, William F. Buckley, G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt, William Shatner, and Andy Warhol. Kay retired in 1992 after pieing right-wing activist Randall Terry. His exploits live on though. He appears in cartoon form in a 2003 animated music video, "Death penalty for pot" by Benedict Arnold and The Traitors, where he and Dana Beal pie George W. Bush and former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (at 2 minutes and 33 seconds into the video).[5]...

Azizi,
    I thought I posted this from work yesterday but it didn't take so this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different.
    If memory serves I believe that Aron Kay began his career as a serial pie thrower locally (for me)when he pied the president of Kent State University. It was during the gymnasium controversy in 1977. The university wanted to build a new gym that would partially obscure the site of the events of May 4, 1970. Some people saw this as an attempt to obscure hsitory or even cover up a crime scene since there were still active cases involving the Ohio National Guard and the state government. This sparked a whole series of protests in itself, including a tent city and a brief occupation of the Administration Building. (Two of my friends, students at the time, were recruited as "Official Observers" on the premise that with so many conflicting eye-witness accounts of May 4, 1970, objective observers could somehow keep an accurate accounting in the case of violence happening again in 1977. They even had official jackets with OBSERVER printed on the back.)
    In any case it was during a press conference by President Glenn Olds that he was pied by Aron Kay. There were Yippies I met on Youngstown's North Side at that time who knew Mr. Kay quite well and were utterly geeked when he began to receive national media attention for his pie throwing escapades.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:02 PM

this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different

Neil D, that was a good one.

"Repost" is a new word. Actually, I'm not sure it's officially recognized as a word, though I know it means posting something again {writing something to a website again}.

Thanks also Neil, for that additional info on "pieing" {which is another new word, or at least is one that expands the original definition of "pies"}.

**


Speaking of which, thanks, Dave for the info you posted about pieing. I'm glad that "most in-the-face pies are nothing but crust (if that) and whipped cream." I mean people are starving over seas {and in the USA too}. So I'd hate to think that real pies were being wasted by being thrown in people's faces.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Jeri said:

I think the separation between apple-pie eaters in the US who like cheese and those who don't may be geographic, with the cheddar fans being in the north east, but I don't know.

I'm originally from Minnesota, if that makes any difference.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

Repost appeared in 1733, applied to a second strike by an adversary in fencing ("English Fencing Master).
Any word which can take the meaning of a repeat action when re- is added is 'legal' in English, and need not be regarded as a new word.
"....freely employed in English as a prefix to verbs." (OED)

The pie-in-the face appeared in a 1909 movie, Ben Turpin's "Flip." Fatty Arbuckle and Mabel Normand used the gag in silent films; Mabel Normand is credited with throwing the first pie on-screen in 1913.

Movie- historians, please tell us- what kind of pie?
Buster Keaton perfected the art, using cream pies. See Keaton Pies

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:41 PM

Are American pies always sweet? For me, on the other side of the Atlantic, the great pies are savoury - steak, kidney and oyster/anchovy; chicken, bacon and mushroom; fish pie - or the great 'coffin pies' with cold-crust pastry, like veal, pork and veal and ham.
Sorry, drooling already!

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

Oh my no! We also have meat pies, quiche (cheese pie) and other savoury pies. Are aspics in a crust considered pie?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

Captain Ginger, the non-fruit or non-vegetable pies I've ever eaten are chicken pies and beef pies {waaay back when I ate beef}. These pies were never home made but were the small pot pies that are sold in the supermarket frozen food sections.

Actually, I {and I bet many other "UnitedStaters"} categorized real pies as dessert only. Store bought chicken pot pies and beef pot pies consist of vegetables, a gravey like sauce, and very little poultry or meat. I never really thought of this quick meal as real pies. Instead, they were "potpies"-the two words running together to refer to something completely different than apple pies, or lemon merangue pies, or other sweet pastry desserts.

However, I suppose with age should come wisdom, or at least knowledge. And I now know that pies don't have to be sweet.

**

This website on the history of pies may be of interest to folks reading this thread: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html

In addition to having hyperlinks to entries such as Shepherd's pie,
Shoofly pie, Sweet potato pie, Pot pie; Pumpkin pie; Quiche; Boston cream pie; Cape Breton pork pies; Chess pie; Key lime pie, and more,
this page provides excerpts on the history of pies from a number of scholarly sources.

Here are two examples:

"Patissiere...Prehistoric man made sweet foods based on maple or birch syrup, wild honey, fruits, and seeds. It is thought that the idea of cooking a cereal paste on a stone in the sun to make pancakes began as far back in time as the Neolithic age...In the Middle Ages in France, the work of bakers overlapped with that of the pastrycooks; bakers made gingerbread and meat, cheese, and vegetable pies...However, it was the Crusaders who gave a decisive impetus to patisseries, by discovering sugar cane and puff pastry in the East. This lead to pastrycooks, bakers, and restauranteurs all claiming the same products as their own specialties, and various disputes arose when one trade encroached upon the other...Another order, in 1440, gave the sole rights for meat, fish, and cheese pies to patisseries, this being the first time that the word appeared. Their rights and duties were also defined, and certain rules were established...In the 16th century, patissier products were still quite different from the ones we know today. Choux pastry is said to have been invented in 1540 by Popelini, Catherine de' Medici's chef, but the pastrycook's art only truly began to develop in the 17th century and greatest innovator at the beginning of the 19th century was indubitably [Antonin] Careme...There were about a hundred pastrycooks in Paris at the end of the 18th century. In 1986 the count for the whole of France was over 40,000 baker-pastrycooks and 12,5000 pastrycooks."
---Larousse Gastronomique, Jenifer Harvey Lang, editor [Crown:New York] 1988 (p. 777-8)

"The bakers of France made cakes too until one day in 1440 when a specialist corporation, the corporation of pastrycooks, deprived them of the right to do so. The pastrycooks had begun by making pies--meat pies, fish pies...Romans had known how to make a kind flaky pastry sheet by sheet, like modern filo pastry, but the new method of adding butter, folding and rolling meant that the pastry would rise and form sheets as it did so. Louis XI's favourite marzipan turnovers were made with flaky pastry...From the sixteenth century onwards convents made biscuits and fritters to be sold in the aid of good works...Missionary nuns took their talents as pastrycooks to the French colonies..."
---History of Food, Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat [Barnes & Noble Books:New York] 1992 (p. 242-244) "

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

I used to make a broccoli/beef pie quite often. It was very blah/bland and I never figured out how to fix it up. Might try again one of these days.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

TOURTIÈRE (Pork Pie)
(French-Canadian classic)

Quebec Tourtière Pastry
4 cups sifted flour
1 tsp salt
1 cup lard
4 tablespoons hard butter
2 eggs, beaten
6 tablespoons cold water
Sift flour and salt into a bowl; cut in lard until mixture resembles fine oatmeal, then cut in hard butter coarsely and stir in eggs and water mixed together. Chill dough for 30 minutes before rolling out.
Makes two 9-inch tourtières.
Note: Rich and flaky. Before baking, place a cupped square of foil on rack below rack holding the pies to catch fat drips.

Filling
1/4 lb salt pork, diced (or streaky bacon)
1 onion, chopped
1/2 clove garlic, crushed (2-3 cloves of
the bland stuff from the grocery)
3 lbs shoulder pork, minced
2 teaspoons salt (old recipe, before diet Nazis)
2 teaspoons chopped celery leaves
2 teaspoons chopped parsley
1/8 teaspoon each, mace and chevril
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
Pinch cayenne
1 bay leaf
1 1/2 - 2 cups bouillon or meat stock

Sauté salt pork until crisply browned. Add onion and stir-fry until onion is transparent, then add remaining ingredients. Simmer, stirring occasionally, until thickened, about 35-40 minutes. If you plan to serve the tourtière hot, crumble one or two slices day-old French bread into it to absorb juice and keep the meat from spreading when you cut the pie.
Roll out pastry to line 2 9-inch pie pans. Add the meat mixture. Dampen the rims and roll out the top crusts. Seal the edges and bake at 425 F for 15 minutes. Reduce heat to 350 F and continue baking for about 30 minutes.
Note: Frozen unbaked tourtière turns out crisp and piping hot if baked at 400 F for 25 minutes, then at 350 F for 40 minutes.

There are many variations depending upon the cook. You may choose to leave salt out of the mixture if the bouillon or stock is salty.

A wonderful dish on a cold day. This recipe from the Canadian "The Chatelaine Cookbook," 1965 edition.

The following simplified Quebec Tourtière recipe from Madame Jehane Benoit, "Encyclopedia of Canadian Cuisine," 1963, is for one pie.

1 pound minced pork
1 small onion, chopped
1 clove garlic, minced
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon savory
1/4 teaspoon celery pepper
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1/2 cup water
1/4 to 1/2 cup bread crumbs

Place all ingredients in saucepan except bread crumbs. Bring to a boil and cook 20 minutes, uncovered, over medium heat.
Add a few spoonfuls bread crumbs, let stand 10 minutes. If the fat is sufficiently absorbed by the bread crumbs, do not add more. If not, continue in the same manner.
Cool and pour into pastry-lined pie pan. Cover with pastry. Bake in a 500 F oven until top is well-browned. Serve hot.
Optional
For gravy, heat a can of undiluted cream of mushroom soup (or your own gravy favorite).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

We make chicken pot pie from left-over roast chicken and chopped fresh vegetables.
The deli of the grocery in our neighborhood makes excellent chicken pot pies, with chopped chicken, broccoli, carrots, green beans, etc. We pick up one when we don't want to cook. Their salads are also very good.

The Tourtière reminded me of the French-Canadian Christmas Paté de Noel- layers of turkey, chicken, pork, veal (cut from knuckles), mushrooms, in a savory jelly and enclosed in rich glazed pastry. The pork layer is minced with brandy and broth. It is a major project for the family.
Traditionally served at the first feast of Reveillon, following Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:20 PM

I was a bit surprised to see lemon meringue pies claimed as American ...there's a beautiful old English recipe for them too, as well as "Queen Charlotte's Tart" which uses oranges and lemons for the filling.   I love a good rhubarb pie myself, although I tend to make rhubarb or gooseberry into a crumble instead - and the best ever crumbles are blackberry and apple, in my opinion at least.

Mincemeat was mentioned earlier - back in history they would have included real meat, but today the closest we come to that normally is to put some suet into the mixture of dried fruits and peel (and brandy). Definitely a feature of Christmas food. I make small mince pies and use lemon juice in the pastry.

As to meat pies - oh, the choices we have! Steak and kidney, chicken and ham (or chicken and mushroom, but no one eats mushrooms in this house but me), steak and ale, lamb, veal and ham, raised pork pies ....*drool*

Don't have the lyrics to hand, but there was a great eulogy to American pies in the film "Michael", sung by Andie McDowell.

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: mg
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

I had that Tourtière once in Maine..delicious.. I was just thinking of poor Envangaline today...if you haven't read the poem since they made you in high school, read it again..it is very sad.

Anyway, read up on the health benefits of lard vs. Crisco. I am not up on Crisco but it at least used to be made of transfats..don't know how it would not be now but maybe they changed it. Anyway, lard would be much much healthier for most people rather than transfats..

Whether it is healthier than not eating lard at all would depend on one's ancestry...many groups co-evolved eating pig fat and I can't imagine how it would hurt them..Polish people, mid-Europeans etc. If it is not in your genetic heritage, then anyone's guess. We did not evolve to eat transfats and they are about the worst things possible for us as they are said to muck up the cell membranes..seriously bad..so go back to lard if that is your preference..otherwise, butter, olive oil, coconut oil (many health benefits and great for baking some things..)...anything but transfats and spread the word however you can...mg

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:50 PM

Crisco has no trans fats nor cholesterol. It's got a load of saturated fats though. (I bought some to grease my bird-feeder pole last summer and still have most of it left.)

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

Steak and Kidley Pie is tops, IMO. The other tops, imo, is Tourtiere. My aunt makes the very best tourtiere in the world. Bar none, no kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

I suppose I might be able to eat a kiddley pie IF I could get past the smell of kiddleys boiling down.....ugh.

Now, steak and ale pie...bring it ON! Leave out the mushrooms tho.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

I love steak and kidney pie with a passion!

But, more's the pity, it's been several years since I had any. "Why?", I hear someone ask.

It's hard, hard, hard to find lamb kidneys these days. The way meats are distributed--precut at the plant, and sent out to stores where there usually are meat merchandisers or meat-counter help but not real butchers--means that the kidneys are separated from the carcasses rather than sent to the stores. I suspect that the kidneys are diverted to the petfood industry.

My wife has started frequenting farmers markets these days, where it's sometimes possible to find a small, independent, family meat producer supplying and manning a booth, and just sometimes they may have lamb kidneys, but they are often snapped up by the early-morning shoppers at the farmers market.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 08:18 PM

The recent proliferation of fake English pubs across Canada (and some states) has also stopped the appearance of the kidneys in our butcher shops. The pubs have their orders in with the distributors, so they tell me, leaving none for the retail market. In my city, a couple of the pubs have properly prepared steak and kidney pie, but most make a mess of it.
A number of what used to be lower price meats are used in signature dishes in better restaurants. Oxtails, the shanks for Osso bucco, etc. are hard to find and must be ordered well in advance from the butcher.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:14 PM

My very favoritist pie in the whole world is banana cream. I never turn up my nose at proper apple, blueberry, cherry, strawberry-rhubarb, or 5-fruit pie I discovered a couple of years ago in Canada.
I have countless good memories of pies, and just one not so good. A few years ago, word went out in advance of a company picnic that there would be a relay team pie-eating race; blueberry pie, with each contestant to eat one fourth of a pie, no hands. I tried to go easy on the rest of the picnic food to allow for the pie. So we all lined up, and they started sitting out one half a pie for each person. I got mine down, and our team won, but it was a while befor I wanted blueberry pie again.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:32 AM

Grin....I still have a real butcher, and they will save and sell me what ever I want. Grocery store/butcher also owns the packing house. I want lamb kidneys, just ask now and they will save them come spring.

I want brains, they will save them. (No, I don't actually WANT brains) but you get my drift here.

This place processes everything but chickens themselves, and they own associated ranches which also raise it all. Yea, I know I'm lucky. No additives, antibiotics, chances of mad cow disease are VERY slim.

Regarding their chickens, they sell both Tyson and Smart Chicken. Tyson is now advertising 'organic/no additive' chicken....I'm not sure I believe that.

Only problem is, really, that if I want veal or real calf liver I have to promise to buy the entire calf, lamb or whatever. Not truly an insurmountable problem though.

This place also does all the processing for the County Fair 4-H animals that are sold at public auction every August.

Small towns, gotta love 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

Buy 2 premade shortcrust pastry shells.

Buy 2 cans of sweetened condensed milk - one each in 'caramel' and 'chocolate' flavours.

Put half the chocolate in each shell, then top with half each of the caramel.

You can add cherries, coconut, etc.

This is a great time saver, as previously you had to boil the can of condensed milk for 4 hours (without it boiling dry, exploding, and redecorating the kitchen!) to make the caramel flavour. The chocolate had to be made the hard way by mixing...

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

WHITE TRASH LEMON PIE

Especially for Foolestroupe

1 large can condensed milk (Pet or eq.)
1 cup sugar
1 can Eagle Brand condensed milk (thick and sweet)
3/4 cup Real Lemon lemon juice or eq. (bottled)

Chill the Pet milk thoroughly, then whip. Add sweet condensed milk and sugar. Add lemon juice. Mix.
Pour into Sue Ella Lightfoot's Graham cracker crust and chill. Makes two 9-inch pies.

Sue Ella's GRAHAM CRACKER CRUST

Mash up Graham crackers with a fork. Mix with oleomargerine until all stuck together. Press into pie pan. Fill with mixture.

(Ef yer feelin' ritzy, use Oreo's fer the crust (lick off the fillin' fust)).

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and many reprints, "White Trash Cooking," Jargon Society, p. 107 (filling), p. 110 (crust).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM

SWEET POTATO PONE

4 cups raw yams
2 cups molasses or dark corn syrup
1 cup brown sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 cup warm milk

Mix ingredients; pour into greased baking dish. Bake in moderate oven until nice crust forms on top (about 45 minutes). Serve hot with unsweetened cream, plain or whipped.

Consider this a pie without crust.
Sweet Pone was a great white trash favorite.

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and reprints, "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

PLAIN OL' POTATO PONE
(can be modified and put in pie shell if desired)

1 cup milk
3 medium-size sweet potatoes
1 cup molasses
2 teaspoons cinammon
3 eggs
1/4 stick oleomargerine

Bake sweet potatoes (yams) or use leftovers. Take off skins and mash them up. To the potatoes, add all other ingredients. Mix well and put in an iron skillet and bake at 350 F for 25-30 minutes.
Now this is a real pone. "Dig in and make yourself at home- if you ain't, you oughta be."
A favorite of Betty Sue Swilley.
Recipe from "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

Harper Lee, author of "To Kill a Mocking Bird," called this book a sociological document of beauty. "... with two generations of prosperity white trash looks like gentry- we've long needed something other than the ballot box to remind us of their presence. "White Trash Cooking" is a beautiful testament to a stubborn people of proud and poignant heritage" (written in 1886).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:08 PM

Actually Q,

I've graduated - I used to use the 'scotch finger bikkies and butter' crust, but now I'm too lazy... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM

bikkies- bikinis?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

Biscuits - see http://www.arnotts.com.au/products/ScotchFinger.aspx

recipie

http://www.arnotts.com.au/yourrecipes/SweetLemonSlice.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

Here's a question for ya:

That Food Timeline: pie & pastry website whose link I provided in my
25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM post includes pizza in its list of pies/pastries.

So is pizza the same thing as a cheese pie?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:18 PM

Btw, Foolestroupe, here's your blue clickies:

http://www.arnotts.com.au/products/ScotchFinger.aspx

and

http://www.arnotts.com.au/yourrecipes/SweetLemonSlice.aspx

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 10:01 PM

A cheese pie, a great, delicately flavored dessert, should not be confused with a savory cheese quiche or pie. A pizza may lack cheese altogether, like the basic Italian pizza.
See "The Joy of Cooking," Rombauer and Becker for Cheese Pie. The following is from there; NOT tried by us. I am posting as an example only.
We do like the simpler applesauce-cheese one (below).

CHEESE PIE
The baking dish and crust lining should be prepared a day in advance.
Filling-
1. Dissolve 1 cup sugar in 1/4 cup cream
2. Add
2 pounds smooth cottage cheese (abt. 2 pints)
4 beaten eggs (or 4 beaten yolks, see 3. optional)
3 tablespoons flour
1 teaspoon pure vanilla
(or- 2 1/2 tablespoons lemon juice
and 1 teaspoon grated lemon rind.
Or- other flavorings)
3. Optional- Whip until stiff 4 egg whites and 1/4 teaspoon salt.
Fold into cheese mixture.

Prepare a crumb crust. Make enough for a topping (about 1/2 cupful needed). Or prepare a galette crust.
BASIC CRUMB CRUST
1 1/2 cups Graham cracker crumbs, ground fine
1/4 cup fine (confectioners') sugar (amount according to taste)
6 tablespoons melted butter
Cinnamon (optional)
Chill thoroughly. It can be prepared well in advance of use.

Line a deep baking dish, pressing the crust on the bottom and sides. Use an oven-proof baking dish 9 inches wide and 2 1/2 inches deep.
Chill thoroughly and let set, preferably for a day, before filling.

4. Fill prepared shell with the cheese mixture and sprinkle on the topping. Bake at 350 F for about 1 hour.

There are variations. The crust prepared with butter is richer.
-------------------------------------------
We have made only a simple cheese pie, with applesauce. A goody!

APPLESAUCE CHEESE PIE

Combine and beat together-
Applesauce, No. 2 can
Condensed milk, 1 can (15 oz)
Rind and juice of 1 lemon
3 egg yolks
Beat until stiff and fold in:
3 egg whites
1/8 teaspoon salt
Put into chilled crumb crust, in deep 9-inch oven proof dish. Cover with crumbs.
Bake at 375 F for about 50 minutes.

Crumb lining-
2 cups Graham cracker crumbs
3/4 cup melted butter
1 1/2 teaspoons cinammon
Line a 9-inch, deep baking dish, reserving enough for a top (about 1 cup). Chill thoroughly before use.

My wife's expertise required for these pies, I make a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:30 AM

Azizi the pie mistress notes much further up the thread:" The word yam comes from African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat,"
and
" They are also marketed by their Spanish names, boniato and ñame..."
For our non Spanish speaking friends the tilde over the n in ñame results in a word that sounds like "NYAHMAE" ...essentiaslly the same as the second African example; NYAMI
It's like language mixes together like pie fillings or somethin'.
Regarding the supposed jewel of Carribean pies, Key Lime, I have tried mightily to like it, but it always tastes like floor cleaner in a graham cracker crust to me. I've even tried several samples in Key West which were declared wonderful and perfect by their proponents.
My reaction: PTOOOEY!
Give me freash peach pie any day.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:06 AM

Fresh, even

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

Skivee, make the key lime in a normal lard pie shell, preparing it like a fresh lemon meringue pie. I agree that the usual cracker crust version is pretty bad. Seasonally we get key limes in the groceries here in Canada, the best from Central America. The 'key lime' is Asian, and was grown in North Africa and Spain before making its way to the Caribbean region.

Following a comment about lemon meringue pies in England- they are in 19th c. English and American cookbooks; whether the first was English or American, dunno.

As I posted previously, the name ñame and similar was first applied to sweet potatoes by 16th c. Spanish and Portuguese in the East Indies. The word origin is unknown, but the supposed African origin may be based on coincidence of words from different languages. It is also possible that the name was carried from SE Asia to west Africa by traders. Comparison has been made with the Fulani word 'to eat' but this seems to be coincidence.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM

I'm not sure, but I think a question about mincemeat was left hanging.

While it consists mostly of dried/spiced fruit, "mincemeat" does ineed contain meat, just a bit of animal flesh in the form of suet. Not a vegetarian dish, by any means, even if you eschew lard in the crust. (Of course, since you're eating meat anyway, you might as well go all out when baking a mince pie, and make your crust with lard for maximum flakiness.)

Mince pie was my late father's favorite (especially with a scoop of vanilla ice cream). He was undoubtedly introduced to this delicacy by his parents, who both grew up in Ireland and then lived in Liverpool for a couple of years, after getting married and before emigrating to America. In my lifetime, my Mom made mince pies, but only at Thanksgiving and Chrismas, and she never made the mincemeat from scratch. We bought the canned prepared stuff, which is getting harder and harder to find these days.

I've bought a can of mincemeat on occasion when I saw it at the supermarket during the pre-holiday period, and either persuaded my wife to make a crust or just done it myself. (Hers is better, but mine is usually passable.) It's been a while, though ~ we probably haven't eaten mincemeat, or even seen it on a groceryt shelf, since before Katrina (Aug '05).

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

We always made mince and pumpkin pies at Christmas time. Ours were like PoppaGator's, with suet. We make a hard sauce with brandy for a topping, and, when someone sends us a 'plum pudding,' the same topping for it. We get a pretty good 'store' mincemeat here in Canada, in a glass jar, forget the brand.
My wife likes to make small 'tarts' filled with mincemeat. The small shells that are sold packaged are pretty good for the purpose, but mostly are made with vegetable oil rather than lard.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:43 PM

Q ~ thanks for mentioning "hard sauce." It's been years!

I remember the glass jars of mincemeat, but I've seen cans more recently, and neither for a couple of years. The one mincemeat brand name that comes to mind to "Nonesuch."

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM

Sorry for repeating your yam info, Q. I guess my eyes were swimming after reading so much pie lore.
Thanks for the suggestion of the lard crust, but my distaste for the Key Lime will not be affected by whatever unsuspecting crust it's thrown at. This is an evil mistake to foist on otherwise content pie eaters. It has the subtlety of Paris Hilton ("That pie is HOT!") without the money.
No right thinking person would ever eat a Key Lime pie. It's the work of Satan. Small children should be warned about Key Lime pie at the same time they learn about not touching the stove and eschewing candy from strangers, especially clowns. Dick Cheney eats Key Lime pie for breakfast.
Scientists recently discovered that Key Limes are the source of HIV.
Key Limes are what Lovecraft modeled Cthulu after.
Did I mention that I don't like them?...better, now...pills starting to work.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

I'm getting to this thread late - but Key Lime Pie is one of God's gifts to man. I've been known to make them with an Oreo cookie crust. It's the best thing you can enjoy that involves keeping your clothes on.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Key Lime Pie is, as I see it, just a nice variation of Lemon Merangue [sp?] Pie. Certainly nothing to get so terribly worked up about.

Many folks prefer the relatively rare Key Lime to the ubiquitous Lemon, others are glad to stick with the familiar and order the Lemon. But there just ain't that very great a difference!

Skivee, do you hate lemon pie that much, or almost as much? If not, why not ~ can you really discern that great a difference?

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

Skivee and Wesley will duel. Watch for announcement of time and place.

My 'hate' is rhubarb-raspberry pie, which is often seen in stores here. Rhubarb by itself is fine, but together? Ugh!

How about strawberry pie, topped with sweetened whipped cream? Even better than Banana Cream pie.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:41 PM

As a matter of fact I enjoy lemon merangue (sp? for me too, but it looks about right) quite a bit. I also enjoy limeade. I had a bottle of limeade on the table next to me as I type this. I don't have a problem with any member of the citrus clan...just this evil use that those limes have been put to.
I don't care for mincemeat or rhubarb either but I do allow that those enjoy them are not the handmaidens of underworld imps.
Perhaps I was bullied and abused by Key Limes pies as a small child but repressed the memory.
For the record, I am prepared to meet Wesley any time or place to beat this wrong-headed unholy alleagence out of him. I consider it my duty as a Christian...like an intervention. Don't thank me. I don't do it for personal glory.



There's a possibility that 2 versions of this response may show up. If so, the nastier version should be used as the prefered edit.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:20 PM

Skivee, thanks for that information about the Spanish pronunciation of the word for yam.

I find the wording of Q's statements about the etymology of the word "yam" to be interesting. Q says that "The word origin is unknown, but the supposed African origin may be based on coincidence of words from different languages. It is also possible that the name was carried from SE Asia to west Africa by traders. Comparison has been made with the Fulani word 'to eat' but this seems to be coincidence".

In the case of unknowns, one theory might just as likely be true as another theory. Things "may be" or "seem to be" one way to one person and a different way to another person for reasons known and unknown. Be that as it may or may not be, I prefer to say that the word "yam" is likely to have originally come from the West African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat.

It seems as though Q is likely to say that these words did not originally come from an African source, and that the existence of Africans words that are similar to the word "yam" and that have a similar meaning as "yam", or at least refer to eating is just coincidences.

To each his or her own.

****

Just because others may be interested in this somewhat off topic subject, and not as a means of proving or disproving something that probably can't be proven one way or another {the etymology of the word "yam"}, here's some information about the role of yams in West African traditional cultures:

"In addition to being popular foods, cocoyams and yams have always carried social and cultural significance. In Nigeria, the cocoyam festival, Alube, is celebrated annually in May. Yams are intertwined in the social, cultural, and religious life of the farming communities where they are the major crop. In remote areas of West Africa, yams were an important status symbol, conferring prestige on families who consumed large quantities. Many customs dictate that yams should be used to wean babies, and special yam dishes are prepared for birth rituals and the naming ceremony for children. In some societies, yams are also important foods for funerals as ceremonial offerings to the gods and to the spirits of the departed, in others as food during the funeral feasts.

Throughout West Africa, the yam is revered by many traditional societies including the Ibo of eastern and midwestern Nigeria. Although many of their customs have been lost or modified due to European influence, it is believed that the Ibo are more devoted to yam cultivation than any other yam producers. Their religious devotion to the food has prevented its displacement by other crops.

The New Yam Festival is, in many West African regions, the most important celebration of the year. The annual festivals are associated with planting but more particularly with the yam harvest. Some of the groups that celebrate the festival include the Ashanti of Ghana, the Ibo and Yako of eastern Nigeria, the Yoruba of western Nigeria, the peoples of the eastern Ivory Coast, the Ewe of Togo, the people of Benin, the Tiv of the Benue region of northern Nigeria, and the Kalabari of the eastern Niger Delta."

http://www.answers.com/topic/western-africa

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:22 PM

Correction:

It seems as though Q is likely to say that these words did not originally come from an African source, and that the existence of Africans words that are similar to the word "yam" and that have a similar meaning as "yam", or at least refer to eating are just coincidences.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

Or the coincidence of words for yams and eating that arose in different parts of the world are a simple reflection of the joyous vocal expression of children, since yams taste sweet and good, who while eating them said some variation of "nom nom nom!yum yum yum! nam nam nam!", thereby giving their parents a useful name for the vegetable.

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:47 PM

100