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BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.

Azizi 23 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM
Azizi 23 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM
Jeri 23 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM
Azizi 23 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM
Azizi 23 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM
Azizi 23 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM
peregrina 23 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM
Jeri 23 Nov 07 - 04:54 PM
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catspaw49 23 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM
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catspaw49 23 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM
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Subject: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:18 PM

Hat tip to thread.cfm?threadid=106505&messages=20 "American pie has a lot to answer for."

After all, traditions are a terrible thing to waste-including Mudcat's tradition of coming up with thread titles that are play on words of another thread title.

So, this thread is all about pies-American and otherwise.

Got any questions & answers about pies? Got any great recipes for pies? Post them to this here thread.

But no pie tossing allowed. That seems like such a terrible waste of good eatin-especially when people are starving overseas.

I'll share some pie questions my next post to this thread. You're welcome to dish out the answers and come back for more questions & answers besides those ones.

Thanks, in advance for posting to this thread!

:o}


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:24 PM

Okay, let's start with the obvious-what's your favorite pie and what's your least favorite pie?

And what's the difference between American pies and any other kind?

And how that tradition of throwing pies in folks faces come about anyway? And what's so funny about throwing pies at people?


Anybody got any great pie recipes they'd like to share?

Do you have any good memories of pie baking or pie eating? How 'bout sharing them too.

Also, {since there's no rule that song lyrics can't be part of BS threads} what songs/poems do you know about pies?

Bring 'em on!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM

Azizi, in your effort to create yet another copycat thread, you've excluded a good part of the world. It might be better to ask "What pies ARE American?"


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:30 PM

My favorite pie is apple {warm with French vanilla ice cream}. But I also like lemon merangue pie {without the merangue}. And I like sweet potato pie.

I've been faked out a couple of times thinking that pumpkin pie is sweet potato pie. They may look alike but they sure don't taste alike.

I'd take sweet potato pie over pumpkin pie any day.

{Well, actually, I shouldn't take either every day since that would lead to considerable weight gain. But you know what I mean}


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:35 PM

Jeri, sometimes copycatting can be fun.

You suggested that I ask "What pies ARE American?"

In my initial post I did write that "So, this thread is all about pies-American and otherwise."

Also, the question in my second post "And what's the difference between American pies and any other kind?" is another way of asking the same question you asked.

Great minds and all that...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

Well, on second read those questions aren't actually the same, but they each demonstrate a desire to include and not exclude non-Americans from the conversation.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: peregrina
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM

sweet potato pie...sounds good...never tried it...how about a recipe please!
(Canned pumpkin is hard to come by where I live. Yup, I prefer using canned or jars...but sweet potatoes can usually be found).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:54 PM

Copycat threads can be fun. Hardly ever funny - to me, but possibly not many other people.

Apple pie didn't originate in the colonies as people brought recipes from their homelands. See Pie: A little slice of history (about 1/3 of the way down the page)

To find pies that are more American than something-else-ian, maybe look for pie innards no one used before us. Probably pumpkin, possibly rhubarb. What had the first person to think of THAT been smoking?
Sweet potatoes" Yams were in Africa and probably other places, but I doubt anyone had previously stuck them in a pastry shell. I could be wrong. Key lime pie, but that's because Key limes live here.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:49 PM

Here's a recipe for sweet potato pie:

PREP TIME 30 Min
COOK TIME 1 Hr 50 Min
READY IN 2 Hrs 20 Min
SERVINGS & SCALING
Original recipe yield: 1 - 9 inch pie
US METRIC
      
About scaling and conversions

INGREDIENTS
1 (1 pound) sweet potato
1/2 cup butter, softened
1 cup white sugar
1/2 cup milk
2 eggs
1/2 teaspoon ground nutmeg
1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon
1 teaspoon vanilla extract
1 (9 inch) unbaked pie crust

DIRECTIONS
Boil sweet potato whole in skin for 40 to 50 minutes, or until done. Run cold water over the sweet potato, and remove the skin.
Break apart sweet potato in a bowl. Add butter, and mix well with mixer. Stir in sugar, milk, eggs, nutmeg, cinnamon and vanilla. Beat on medium speed until mixture is smooth. Pour filling into an unbaked pie crust.
Bake at 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) for 55 to 60 minutes, or until knife inserted in center comes out clean. Pie will puff up like a souffle, and then will sink down as it cools.


http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/Sweet-Potato-Pie-I/Detail.aspx

This page also includes some reviews from folks who used this recipe.


-snip-

I use a recipe for pumpkin pie that I got out of a Betty Crocker cook book and substitute a large can of sweet potatoes {or yams} instead of a can of pumpkin. If you use the canned sweet potatos, empty out the water in the can first before putting the sweet potatos in the mixer.

Fwiw, I use margarine instead of butter. And I don't add vanilla, but I do add clove flavoring with the cinnamon and allspice.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

Fwiw, I think that African Americans who I've met :o} are much more familiar with sweet potato pies than pumpkin pies. I definitely prefer sweetpotato pies to pumpkin pies-but maybe it's the flavoring and not the vegetable-or are pumpkin/sweetpotatos fruit?

Also, when I went to school near Newark, New Jersey in the mid 1960s I learned about another kind of pie-bean pies.

Here's a Wikipedia article about bean pies-

"A bean pie is a sweet custard pie whose filling consists of mashed beans, usually navy beans, sugar, butter, milk, and spices. Bean pies are commonly associated with soul food cuisine. Additionally, they are associated with the Nation of Islam movement: its messenger, Elijah Muhammad, encouraged their consumption in lieu of richer foods associated with African American cuisine, and the followers of the religion commonly sell bean pies as part of their fund-raising efforts."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean_pie


Here's a bean pie recipe:

2 cups Navy Beans (cooked)
4 Eggs
1 14 oz. can evaporated milk

1 stick butter
1 teaspoon nutmeg
1 teaspoon cinnamon

2 T. Flour
2 cups Sugar
2 T. Vanilla


Cook beans until soft. Preheat oven. to 350 degrees.

In electric blender, blend beans, butter, milk, eggs, nutmeg and flour about 2 minutes on medium speed. Pour mixture into a large mixing bowl. Add sugar and vanilla. Mix well. Pour into pie shells. Bake about one hour. until golden brown. Makes 2 or 3 Bean Pies.

Tip: 5 minutes after removing pies from oven, cover with plastic wrap that clings.

http://www.muhammadspeaks.com/Pie.html

**

I've never baked a bean pie. But I like them. They remind me much more of sweet potato pies than pumpkin pie. But all three of these pies look the same to me.

{which is a bit of a joke, if you get my drift}


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

Ziz....No objection to a pie thread but I hate the damn copycat things. Perhaps you missed this the other day, but it got a bit contentious(;<))


Subject: RE: BS: Do you sing from mammary?
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:23 PM

Do we have to have some dumbass copycat cutesy thread on every fuckin' thread around here? Yeah.....I know I should get over it and all that shit but for the love of Christ..............It was funny once or twice....Maybe even 3 dozen times, but as we get into the thousands of times, enough is probably Fuckin' A enough.

Rant over

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Do you sing from mammary?
From: Morticia - PM
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

Uncle Pat, I love you...oh, and fucking ditto.


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Subject: RE: BS: Do you sing from mammary?
From: WYSIWYG - PM
Date: 18 Nov 07 - 07:05 PM

That's odd, I think I'm channeling Morty.

Ya know, skipy, this kind of cuteness could also have been put in the existing "Memory" thread as a mere comment instead of making a new thread, or it could have been a post in the Misread Threads thread, or any number of other approaches. Be a leader-- stop the madness!

~S~


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As to pies? I'll repost my favorite later and the best pumpkin/squash/sweet tater type recipe I know....Dead simple and always a hit.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM

Spaw, no, I didn't have the pleasure [?] of reading that "Do you sing from mammary?" thread. Yes, I recognized the play on words on the Do you sing from memory thread. But it didn't faze me one way or another that someone had posted a play on words-aka copycat [title]- thread.

Obviously, I don't have a problem with this type of thread. Sometimes the titles are more witty than others. And sometimes they're not witty at all. Sometimes the content of the thread is interesting to me, and sometimes it's not.

Such is life.

As for me and this thread, I just felt like being light hearted, and sharing information at the same time.

I certainly don't feel like being contentious.

And btw, Spaw, I look forward to you reposting your "best pumpkin/squash/sweet tater type recipe".


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM

FIRST ya gotta get the pastry right! Here is a No Fail Short Crust
(honest, no fail)In US measurments, makes enough for 4 10" one crust pies, or a little more.

1 3/4 cups solid fat, ie Crisco
4 cups UN sifted flour
2 tsp salt
1 Tbsp sugar (optional, leave it out for savory pie)
Cut the fat into the flour,salt, sugar mix.

Mix well in separate bowl:
1 Lg or med egg
1 Tbsp white or cider vinegar
1/2 cup cool water.
Mix well and add to the flour mixture. Mix with hands gently until a ball forms, just a tad bit more of flour might be necessary. Divide into fourths.

This dough freezes very well. Wrap in cling film or put in a plastic baggie and squeeze most of the air out.

Pie stuff later!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

By far my favorite pie is an old standard not generally made often in this day and age of watching the calories and sugar


BUTTERMILK PIE (makes 2 pies)

Make up two of your favorite recipe deep dish pie shells (I'd suggest Sorcha's above which seem to follow a close formula to what KLaren does) or buy a couple of premade....your choice. Brown them a bit before adding the filling.
FILLING:
Ingredients:
5 Cups Granulated Sugar
6 Tablespoons Flour
10 Tablespoons Butter
6 Eggs
3 Cups Buttermilk
2 teaspoons Vanilla
2 teaspoons vinegar


Combine the sugar and flour. Melt the butter in a separate bowl then mix in the eggs,buttermilk,vanilla,and vinegar. Mix well!!! Add in the sugar/flour and continue mixing.....good mixing is important.

Pour the filling mixture into the pie shells and bake at 350 for 45-60 minutes (clean toothpick check). Let cool and EAT!!!


Have a supply of antacid handy and some rope to tie up your kids is helpful too.

Enjoy (and so will your dentist)

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

I'm more a pie eater than a pie baker...but that's ok, 'cause I've become an expert by specializing.

I like many, many types of pie...but am not much on pumkin, rhubarb. Sorry...that's just how it is. Yesterday, we had pumpkin, apple and **PECAN**. I ate the apple happily, but went for the pecan to finish. Now a well-made pecan pie will simple cause my pleasure cells to overload..YUM.

But as a kid, my favorite was cherry, and I'd probably still choose a good cherry pie with vanilla ice cream for dessert on my 'last meal'. ('good' means NOT overly sweet and plastic).

I also LOVE good fruit pies...peach is good...but so is fresh blackberry. Still, if I had to choose ONE pie...(not as a 'last meal'), the one I want is fresh, homemade....GOOSEBERRY!. It is a very mild, delicate flavor and gooseberries are not easy to find these days...but it is wonderful!

Recently, the best homemade pies I've had were at parties where a friend made a cranberry-walnut pie. She says it is dead simple, and I am going to GET that recipe!

About 30 minutes from us is an Amish/Dutch market which operates 3 days a week, and when I'm near it and it's open, I will often treat myself to one of the best coconut creme pies I have had. They make others quite well, but, they do coconut creme about as well as any I've had.

Then again, if none of those others are available, Key Lime or Lemon pie is always delicious....always assuming that they are 'right' and not commercial junk!

So...I am easy to please, as long as there are choices other than Pumpkin and Rhubarb..etc. You may have my share.

Pardon me....I have this piece of left-over pecan to finish.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:06 PM

Oh...and BTW..many years ago, I had 'mock-apple' pie, made with soda crackers. I was surprised how good it was!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:11 PM

Ziz.......I use the same simple recipe for the filling of any kind of squash type pie, that means pumpkin or sweet potato too.


Simply Great "Gourd" Pies

Never use canned fillings. I cook and drain 2 cups per pie of whatever......In order, our preferences are Acorn Squash, Sweet Potato, Butternut Squash, Pumpkin. If you find any "Sweet Dumpling" squash, USE THEM!!!!!

In any case, when cooked, drain well and I even squeeze out as much water as possible to make a denser pie. The key thing now is DO NOT WHIP/PUREE the filling. Mash the squash/pumpkin/sweet potato with a fork and leave the mixer in the pantry. Add two well beaten eggs to your two cups of your "whatever" and 1 can of sweetened condensed milk. Stir it together til blended. Add your favorite "gourd pie" spices (nutmeg/cinnamon/clove/allspice/etc.) to your taste then pour it into your favorite recipe pie shell (or frozen pie shell). Bake at 425 for 15 minutes and turn down the oven to 350 for an additional baking of 45 minutes. Toothpick/knifeblade check for doneness.

This is dead simple and gives the pie more texture. People love it and its dead simple

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:27 PM

Glad you said it before I did, Spaw et alia.

...traditions are a terrible thing to waste-including Mudcat's tradition of coming up with thread titles that are play on words of another thread title.

In this case it is not old enough to be a "tradition" and would not have been possible when we had to be careful not to crash the place. We've gotten spoiled with all of the bandwidth and that, of course, is not always a good thing. It's gotten old, really fast.

There are several recipe threads this could have been added to.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 07:59 PM

awww...c'mon...pie is a special case.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Neil D
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:16 PM

My mother's favorite pie is mince-meat pie. You seldom see it anymore. I believe this might be an example of one that is more a British than Americn tradition. I remember it as being spicy as well as sweet. I don't think it had meat in it but rather raisins and nuts. Perhaps some of the British Mudcatters could comment. Is this still a common Christmas treat on that side of the pond.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

So far, folks have commented in this thread about traditions and practices, and fruit pies, and vegetable pies, and the pie crust that can not fail us.

But up until now we having talked about meat pies and poultry pies, and we having shared songs, and poems about pies.

Here's one poem/song about a different kind of pie:

CHICKEN IN THE BREAD TRAY

"Auntie, will yo' dog bite?-
"No, Chile!-No!"
Chicken in de bread tray
A makin' up dough.

"Auntie, will yo' broom hit?"-
"Yes, Chile!" Pop!
Chicken in de bread tray
"Flop! Flop! Flop!"

"Auntie, will yo' oven bake?"-
"Yes, jues fry!"-
What's dat chicken good fer?"
"Pie! Pie! Pie!"

"Auntie, is yo' pie good?"
"Good as you could 'spec'."
Chicken in de bread tray;
"Peck! Peck! Peck!


Source: Thomas W Talley; Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise And Otherwise {Washington, N.Y; Kennikat Press, Inc., 1968; pp.7; originally published, 1922}


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:38 PM

Neil D,

Mince meat pie was part of my family's Thanksgiving tradition as a child and as an adult.

However, now that I think about it, as an adult, when I baked mince meat pie,I was the only one who ate it. So consequently, I haven't baked that type of pie in a number of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 08:56 PM

My favorite all-time pie is strawberry rhubarb. I use corn starch as a thickener and once when I had too much filling I found that the thickened pie juice, left in the freezer, turned into a nice little rhubarb strawberry sherbet.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:01 PM

Correction, I meant to write:

"But up until now we having talked about meat pies and poultry pies, and we haven't shared songs, and poems about pies".

Here's another poem/song about pies:

DON'T ASK ME NO QUESTIONS

Don't ask me no questions,
An' I won't tell you no lies;
But bring me dem apples
An' I'll make you some pies.

An' if you as questions.
'Bout me havin' de flour,
I fergits to use 'lasses
An' de pie'll be all sour.

Dem apples jues wa'k here;
An dem 'lasses, dey run.
Hain't no place lak my house
Found un'er de sun.

Source: Thomas W Talley; Negro Folk Rhymes: Wise And Otherwise {Washington, N.Y; Kennikat Press, Inc., 1968; pp.94-95; originally published, 1922}   

-snip-

My interpretation of this poem/song is that the cook "borrowed" the ingredients for this pie from the "big house's" storeroom or kitchen.

Among enslaved and post civil war free African Americans pies and candy and anything sweet were rare treats. Songs and poems about sweets reflect that social condition.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bert
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:10 PM

Well I think it's fun Azizzi.

Here are some additives to the usual fillings

Pumpkin - use chopped crystalized ginger instead of ginger powder.

Apple - Soak some cloves in vodka for a day or two and add to taste.

Cherry pies - add some amaretto.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:21 PM

Off topic, it's interesting to me how widely used this "don't ask me no question" line is. One place you will still find it is in the "Miss Lucy [Miss Susie et al] Had A Steamboat" profanity avoidance handclap rhymes. A number of those rhymes can be found on the blog of the octopuses {Octoblog} page of contemporary children's schoolyard rhymes:

http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

Here's an example of one of those rhymes:


Miss molly had a steamboat,
the steamboat had a bell ding ding,
the steamboat went to heaven,
miss molly went to
hello operator,
give me number nine,
and if you disconnect me,
I'll kick you from
behind the yellow curtain
there was a piece of glass
Miss Molly sat upon it
and hurt her big fat
ask me no more questions
tell me no more lies

the boys are in the bathroom
doing up their
flies are in the city
bees are in the park
Miss molly's with her boyfriend
kissing in the
d-a-r-k
d-a-r-k
dark dark dark
dark in like a theater,
a theaters like a show
a show is like a movie
and that is all i know,
i know my ma
i know i know my pa
i know i know my sister
40 acre bra
i've seen her in the ocean
ive seen her in the sea
ive seen her in the bathroom
Oops i parden me!

posted by Vicky at June 18, 2004
http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php

I've received permission from that blog's members to quote examples from that page.

I added the italics. Imo, the "i" in the last sentence of this handclap rhyme is probably a typo for an exclamation point.

**

Fwiw, it appears that a number of children/youth used to post on that website's page of school yard rhymes. Unfortunately, that page seldom gets any post nowadays. That's a shame. However, it still is a rich repository of children's contemporary rhymes.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:21 PM

Now I love meat pies, especially turkey, but I think of Mrs. Lovett and "The Worst Pies in London":

Mrs. Lovett

A customer!
Wait! What's your rush?
What's your hurry?
You gave me such a...
fright! I thought you was a ghost!
Half a minute, can't ya sit?
Sit ya down!
Sit!
All I meant is that I haven't seen a customer for weeks.
Did ya come here for a pie, sir?
Do forgive me if my head's a little vague.
Ugh!
What is that?
But you'd think we had the plague.
From the way that people
keep avoiding!
No you don't!
Heaven knows I try, sir!
But there's no one comes in even to inhale!
Right you are, sir, would you like a drop of ale?
Mind you I can hardly blame them!
These are probably the worst pies in London.
I know why nobody cares to take them!
I should know!
I make them!
But good? No...
The worst pies in London...
Even that's polite! The worst pies in London!
If you doubt it take a bite!

Sweeney Todd (spoken)

Ugh!

Mrs. Lovett (sung)

Is that just, disgusting?
You have to concede it!
It's nothing but crusting!
Here drink this, you'll need it.
The worst pies in London
And no wonder with the price of meat
what it is
when you get it.
Never thought I'd live to see the day.
Men'd think it was a treat
findin' poor
animals
what are dyin' in the street.
Mrs. Mooney has a pie shop.
Does a business, but I notice something weird.
Lately, all her neighbors cats have disappeared.
Have to hand it to her!
What I calls,
enterprise!
Poppin' pussies into pies!
Wouldn't do in my shop!
Just the thought of it's enough to make you sick!
And I'm telling you them pussycats is quick.
No denying times is hard, sir!
Even harder than the worst pies in London.
Only lard and nothing more-
Is that just revolting?
All greasy and gritty?
It looks like it's molting!
And tastes like...we'll pity.
A woman alone...with limited wind
And the worst pies in London!
Ah, sir
Times is hard.
Times is hard.

Sweeney Todd (spoken)

Isn't that a room up there? Over the shop?
If times are so hard, why don't you rent it out? Should bring in something...

Mrs. Lovett (spoken)

Up there? Huh, no one'll go near it.
People think it's haunted.
You see years ago something happened, something not very nice.


But Sweeney takes the place anyway and brings prosperity to Mrs. Lovett whose meat pies immediately improve and many are saying, "God, That's Good!":

TOBY:
Ladies and gentlemen, may I have your attention please?
Are your nostrils a quiver and tingling as well at the delicate lashes ambrosial smell?
Yes they are I can tell
Well, ladies and gentlemen, that aroma enriching the bees
Is like nothing compared to its succulent source as the gourmets among you will tell you of course
Ladies and gentlemen you can't imagine the rapture in store
Just inside of this door!
There you'll sample Mrs. Lovett's meat pies
savory and sweet pies as you'll see
You, who eat pies Mrs. Lovett's meat pies
conjure up the treat pies used to be

MRS. LOVETT:
Nice to see you dearie
how have you been keeping?
Coo m'bounds is weary
Toby, one for the gentleman
hear the birdies cheeping
helps to keep it cheery
Toby, throw the old woman out!

ENSEMBLE:
God, that's good!

MRS. LOVETT:
What's your pleasure dearie?
No we don't cut slices
Coo m'eyes is bleary
Toby, none for the gentleman!
I put up m'prices
I'm a little leery
Business couldn't be better now!

ENSEMBLE:
God, that's good!

MRS. LOVETT:
Knock on wood!

SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Excuse me
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Dear, see to the customers
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Yes? What love? Quick, though the trade is brisk
SWEENEY: But its six o clock
MRS. LOVETT: So its six o clock
SWEENEY: It was due to arrive at a quarter to five and its six o clock! I've been waiting all day
but it should have been here by now
MRS. LOVETT: and its probably already down the block it will be here, it will be here have a pitcher of beer and it
should've been here by now now

ENSEMBLE:
More hot pies!

MRS. LOVETT:
Will you wait there cooling
'Cause my customers truly are getting unruly
SWEENEY: You come back when it comes!

MRS. LOVETT:
and what's your pleasure dearie?
Oops I beg your pardon
Just m'hands are smeary
Toby, run for the gentleman
down to Lover Garden
always makes me teary
must be one of them foreigners

ENSEMBLE:
God, that's good! That is delicious!

MRS. LOVETT:
What's my secret?
Frankly dear, forgive my can of firmly secret all to do with herbs
things like being
careful with your curry and that's what makes the gravy grander

ENSEMBLE:
More hot pies! More hot, more pies!

SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Excuse me
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Dear, see to the customers
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: What now, love? Quick, though the trade is brisk
SWEENEY: But its here
MRS. LOVETT: Its where?
SWEENEY: Coming up the stair
MRS. LOVETT: I'll get rid of the slaughters they're still pretty hott it will soon be there
SWEENEY: It's about to be open to don't you care?
MRS. LOVETT: No Ill be there, I will be there but then none will get sold if I let them get cold
SWEENEY: But we have to prepare!

MRS. LOVETT:
Oh and incidentally dearie
you know Mrs. Mooney
sales have been so dreary
Toby, poor thing is penniless
What about that loony?
Lookin sort of beery
Oh well go get them upinsin that will be thruppinsin

ENSEMBLE:
God, that's good! That is de-have-u-licious at the tasty smell such oh my god what's more that pie's good
ooh ooh ooh
ooh ooh ooh

SWEENEY: Is this a chair fit for a king?
How wondrous meet and most particular chair
MRS.LOVETT: Its gorgeous, its gorgeous
SWEENEY: You tell me where is a seat can half compare with this particular thing
MRS. LOVETT: Its perfect, its gorgeous
SWEENEY: I have a few minor adjustments
MRS. LOVETT: You make your few minor adjustments
SWEENEY: to make
they'll take
MRS. LOVETT: You take, your time
SWEENEY: a moment
MRS. LOVETT: I'll go see to the customers
SWEENEY: I'll call you
I have another friend

TOBY:
Is that a pie fit for a king?
Oh wondrous sweet and most particular thing
MRS. LOVETT: Its gorgeous its gorgeous
TOBY: You see maam why there is no meat pie can compete with this delectable pie
MRS. LOVETT: Its perfect its gorgeous
TOBY: The crust all velvety and wavy
MRS. LOVETT: The crust all velvety and wavy
TOBY: that glaze, those crimps
MRS. LOVETT: That glaze, those crimps
TOBY: and then the thick succulent gravy
SWEENEY: Then down they go
The cellar waits below
TOBY: one whiff will make me glimpse
a wonder that we surrender
SWEENEY: On with, the show

SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Excuse me
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: Dear, see to the customers
SWEENEY: Psst!
MRS. LOVETT: All set, love?
SWEENEY: Hear me
MRS. LOVETT: My heart's a flutter
SWEENEY: When I pound the floor
MRS. LOVETT: When you pound the floor
SWEENEY: Its a signal to show that they're ready to go when I pound the floor
MRS. LOVETT: Yes I know you told me you'd be ready to go when you pound the floor!
Will you trust me? Will you trust me?
SWEENEY: I just want to be sure
MRS. LOVETT: I'll be waiting below for the whistle to blow
SWEENEY: when I'm certain that you're in place
I'll pound three times
three times
To warn you
three times
that means

ENSEMBLE:
Exactly more hot pies! God!
More hot! right! More pies! More! Right!

MRS. LOVETT:
How about it dearie?
be here in a twinkling
just confirms my theory
Toby, god wash this off of here
sit and have an inkling
Toby, throw the old woman out

TOBY: (at same time as MRS. LOVETT)
Is that a pie fit for a king?
Oh wondrous sweet and most delectable thing
you see maam why there is no meat pie

ENSEMBLE:
God, that's good! That is de-have-u-licious at the tasty smell such oh my god what's perfect more that pies such flavor God
that's good!



I generally hate musicals but I love Sweeney! I thought George Hearn was terrific with Angela Lansbury as Mrs. Lovett, but I admit to looking forward to see it done by Johnny Depp. He'll be great!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:30 PM

Sorcha has given the basic recipe for a fine crust- Lard or Crisco is absolutely necessary; these abominations made with crushed cookies or low fat ingredients are offal-awful however one wants to spell it.
Favorite fillings:

PECAN PIE I

3 eggs
1/4 teaspoon salt
3/4 cup sugar
1/2 cup melted butter
1 cup dark corn syrup
1 1/2 cups pecan halves

Roll out pastry, line a 9-inch pie pan and bake in a preheated 450 F oven for 5 minutes. Cool.
Beat eggs ans salt until light and lemon-colored. Beat in sugar a little at a time. With a wire whisk, fold in melted butter and syrup. Pour into partially baked shell and arrange pecan halves on top, broken side down. Bake for 10 minutes in preheated 425 F oven, reduce heat to 325 F and bake for 30 minutes.
Serves 6-8 (or less). This from American Heritage Cookbook, 1964, vol. 2, Recipe editor Helen McCully.

Now my wife's variant-

PECAN PIE 2

3 eggs well-beaten
1/4 teaspoon salt
1 cup sugar
1/4 cup melted butter
1 cup corn syrup
1 tablespoon fresh lemon juice
1 cup pecan halve (or more)

Follow directions for PECAN PIE 1 but after pouring into shell and arranging pecans, bake at 350 F for 15 minutes and 300 F for 40 minutes.

SWEET POTATO PIE

1 1/4 cups cooked, mashed sweet potatoes*
1/2 cup soft Demerara brown sugar, firmly packed.
2 eggs, well-beaten
1/4 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon cinammon (or more)
1/4 teaspoon allspice
3/4 cup milk
1 tablespoon melted butted
3/4 cup milk
1 cup pecan halves (optional)
or whipped cream topping**

Line an 8-inch pie pan with pastry. Chill.
Combine sweet potatoes, brown sugar, salt and spices in a bowl. Mix together beaten eggs, milk and butter and stir into sweet potato mixture, mix thoroughly. Pour into chilled pie crust. Bake in preheated 400 F oven for 45 minutes or a probe comes out dry when inserted in the center.

* Microwave on high the greased sweet potato, with a few small holes pricked in the skin, for about 5 minutes or until soft. Time varies with size. Saves cooking time and does just as well.
** If nuts not used, when serving, cover top with whipped cream whipped with sugar, brandy or bourbon flavored, and a dusting of nutmeg.

CREAM
1 cup chilled whipped cream
2 tablespoons sugar
1 tablespoon brandy or bourbon
Beat and whisk until peaks form. Chill.


PUMPKIN to follow-


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:35 PM

One of the questions I asked in my 2nd post to this thread was about the practice {tradition?} of throwing pies.

I suppose most of the pies that are thrown are custard pies, but maybe other types of pies are used too.

Here's a link to a Wikipedia page which provides information about how that practice started and how it is evolving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pieing

Here's an excerpt from that entry:

"Pieing is the act of throwing a pie at someone. Originally a staple of slapstick comedy, pieing has also come to be used for political purposes, in which throwing a pie at an authority figure, politician, or celebrity is a means of protesting against the target's political beliefs, or against a perceived flaw — arrogance, hubris — in the target's character. (A variation of pieing, when the target is hit with a cake instead of a pie, is called "caking".)

The political act of pieing has its origins in the "pie in the face" gag from slapstick comedy (first popularized by movie director Mack Sennett around the year 1914 in his Keystone Cops silent movies). Throwing pies as a comedy staple came into its own in the Laurel & Hardy classic short film, "Battle of the Century" (1927)[1] which, according to legend, required four thousand pies. Pie-throwing became a convention of early slapstick movies made by the Three Stooges,[2][3] and others. Other comedians and cartoon characters famous for pieing are Bugs Bunny, Charlie Chaplin, Monty Python, and Soupy Sales.

The probable originator of pieing as a political act was Aron Kay [4], a Yippie, who pied singer and anti-gay-rights activist Anita Bryant in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1977 (audio footage of the incident is included in the Chumbawamba song Just Desserts, a homage to the concept of pieing).[4] Kay subsequently pied, among many others, William F. Buckley, G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt, William Shatner, and Andy Warhol. Kay retired in 1992 after pieing right-wing activist Randall Terry. His exploits live on though. He appears in cartoon form in a 2003 animated music video, "Death penalty for pot" by Benedict Arnold and The Traitors, where he and Dana Beal pie George W. Bush and former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (at 2 minutes and 33 seconds into the video).[5]...


-snip-

One political blog that I read "DailyKos" uses the term "pie fights" as a referemt for discussions that are highly contentious. I'm not sure whether that term is widely used on other blogs.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 09:46 PM

LOL! Spaw. I see I have been culturally deprived. I'll have to check out Sweeney Todd.

**

Thanks to all who have posted material to this thread!

Keep it comin if you have a mind to and the stomach for it.

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:10 PM

Additives for Pie! (Come back, bring PIE!)
Peach--a dash of grated nutmeg
Cherry--drop or two (not much!) Almond extract (Amaretto works too!)
Coconut--toast the coconut lightly before adding to the custard
Lemon or lime--a teaspoon or so of finely grated peel (aka zest)
Chocolate custard--dash of cinnamon
Pecan--drop or two of Mapeline
Apple--I always use brown sugar instead of white
Pumpkin--I always double the cinnamon called for, and increase the ginger,nutmeg and clove. Be careful with the last 2 or it will be bitter and nasty. Look, I think pumpkin should be spicy not blah.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:13 PM

PUMPKIN PIE

Pastry according to Sorcha's recipe
Filling-

pure pumpkin* 28 oz. tin
1 cup brown Demerara sugar
1 cup white sugar
2 tablespoons molasses
1 1/2 teaspoons powdered ginger
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
3 teaspoons cinammon
1 teaspoon pure vanilla extract
1 short teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon allspice
4 large eggs, slightly beaten
2 cups scalded milk (or part cream)
Mix ingredients in order given. Pour into two 9-inch partly baked pie shells (see PECAN PIE I, above).
Bake 15 minutes at 425 F in preheated oven. Reduce heat to 325 F and bake one hour.
*We use pure canned pumpkin, E. D. Smith, 28 oz tin (796ml). Good fresh pumpkin of the proper variety is not found in our stores.

When serving, top with bourbon-or brandy-laced cream. Recipe given with SWEET POTATO pie, above.

I gave this recipe in another thread a while back.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:13 PM

I'm an eater not a baker... but sour cherry pies are my favourite - hard to get sour cherries anymore, just those big sweet ones. And of course, cold tart apple pie, leave the cinnamon out of 'er! Strawberry rhubarb, yessir. And one I've come to love, cranberry apple pie!

My one grandmother used lard, not much sugar, and baked her pies four at a go, eight pies at once, in the coal stove oven. Her pastry was not flaky at all, but thin and soft, and her pies were mostly eaten at breakfast.

My other grandmother made delicate flaky pastry, and made the best mincemeat (venison and beef together, usually) on the Island, kept it in 'stone' jars in the cold cellar.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 10:27 PM

Sour cherries are available canned in stores here (western Canada), from Roumania! Fresh are unobtainable here, and the tiny Nanking (good for jelly) is the only cherry that grows here on the prairies.

A good apple pie, served almost hot, with a generous slab of Stilton cheese on top, is great. Samuel Johnson, the 18th c. lexicographer, regarded England outside of London as uncouth and uncivilized, but somewhere in northern England while touring, he found an inn which served apple pie with Stilton, and said it was the only worthwhile thing he found on his trip.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: mg
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:16 PM

I'm generally not a pie eater as I don't like gooey things, but a good chocolate pie is great..or key lime...

And I don't see any relation at all to this quite sensible thread and the cutsie ones that I avoid. No reason at all not to ask people for pie recipes that I can see...not that I have any...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 11:27 PM

My wife does a great Key Lime pie, but it is beyond my skills (or lack thereof).
Also like lemon meringue (ditto).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:14 AM

The closest I come to baking pie is not pie at all, but little shortbread lemon tarts. I think my mother may have invented them about forty years ago. You make mini tartshells (in those tiny muffin tins) of a simple shortbread: "one half of brown sugar to one of butter to two of flour", bake them briefly at 350F. Let cool, and fill with: one can sweetened condensed milk with one half cup fresh lemon juice and dash of salt stirred until milk thickens - about three minutes. Keep the filling refrigerated and fill tarts as required, which in my house is 'as long as its there I'm going to eat one... or two... or three...'


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:43 AM

If you want what they call "pie cherries" here, which are sour (to my taste), let me know. We have them all over the valley and some places freeze them so one can buy them over the winter, even.

My cousin whose mother was an excellent baker, said I made the best pies, esp. my crust. I got it out of a Better Homes and Garden cookbook and it was made with oil. Here's the old recipe. I use olive oil:

Oil Pastry 2 cups flour 1 1/2 t. salt 1/2 cup salad oil (canola oil) 5 T. cold water or milk Mix flour and salt,pour oil and water into measuring cup but do not stir. Add all at once to flour. Stir lightly with a fork. Form into two balls; slightly flatten. Roll between two 12 in squares of waxed paper. (dampen table slightly) Roll dough to edges of paper,this will be the right thickness.Peel off top sheet of the paper and fit dough,paper side up,into pie plate. Remove the paper. Put in filling and roll out top crust. Makes 8" or 9" pie: double crust. From the Better Homes and Garden Cookbook

Dampening the surface before you put the waxed paper down will keep it from sliding around.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Janie
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:46 AM

In the years since moving to North Carolina, I notice that Sweet Potato pies seem to be favored over pumpkin. It may be a southern preference that African-Americans have carried with them. Or, it could be that African-American slave cooks made it popular in the South. Since both pumpkins and sweet potatoes grow well here, but sweet potatoes will store in root cellars through the winter, it makes sense that they would have become the more used and preferred.

I prefer pumpkin to sweet potato, probably because I was raised on it, but I also prefer the texture of the pumpkin custard to a sweet potato custard.

Pumpkin pie made from scratch with fresh pie pumpkins and honey instead of sugar is my is my favorite pie. After that, it is a close toss-up between cherry and apple.

I like the simplicity of making an apple pie. I don't have a recipe, but people generally seem to like my apple pies. I have a lovely old-fashioned gizmo that cores, peels and slices the apples with the turn of a crank. I keep cranking and dumping the result into a pie shell until the pan is heaped with apples. Then I sprinkle the apples with cinnamon, nutmeg and cornstarch, (kept in a cheese shaker)toss them in the shell, drizzle with lemon juice and a little honey, cover with the top crust, and bake.

I'm with 'Spaw and Sorcha. Forget healthy if you want a really nice pie crust. It is the crust that will ultimately distinguish between a good pie and a great pie. Lard really does make the best crust, but it is SO bad for you, that I stick with Crisco. Butter, or coconut based shortenings may work for a for a tart shell, where some texture has to be sacrificed for a crust sturdy enough to be a stand alone container for the filling, but can not deliver the proper texture for a pie crust. I've played around with a lot of pastry recipes, and finally decided that the recipe on the Crisco label is my favorite for most pies.

I swear by the use of a pastry cloth and rolling pin cover for any pastry or biscuit dough. I store them in a baggie in the freezer.

Janie


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 07:46 AM

Up thread, when I mentioned the reasons why I started this discussion, I wrote "As for me and this thread, I just felt like being light hearted, and sharing information at the same time".

Those reasons are incomplete as I omitted that I also started this thread to learn from other folks who I hoped would post to it.

Thanks again for your posts!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:22 AM

Besides eating, and starting lots of category threads on Mudcat such as thread.cfm?threadid=105855 "Religious Songs That Speak To You", I like learning about the origins & meanings of words.

So what's the difference between a yam and a sweet potato? I thought that "yam" was just another name for "sweet potato", but I was wrong.

Here's an excerpt from About.com: Home Cooking

"Yam or sweet potato, what in the world is it? Many people use these terms interchangeably both in conversation and in cooking, but they are really two different vegetables...

Sweet Potatoes
Popular in the American South, these yellow or orange tubers are elongated with ends that taper to a point and are of two dominant types. The paler-skinned sweet potato has a thin, light yellow skin with pale yellow flesh which is not sweet and has a dry, crumbly texture similar to a white baking potato. The darker-skinned variety (which is most often called "yam" in error) has a thicker, dark orange to reddish skin with a vivid orange, sweet flesh and a moist texture...

Yams
The yam tuber has a brown or black skin which resembles the bark of a tree and off-white, purple or red flesh, depending on the variety. They are at home growing in tropical climates, primarily in South America, Africa, and the Caribbean...

The word yam comes from African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat," and was first recorded in America in 1676...

Yams contain more natural sugar than sweet potatoes and have a higher moisture content. They are also marketed by their Spanish names, boniato and ñame..."

-snip-

What?! Sweet potatos aren't yams?! Well, I guess they're the closest thing to yams that we had in the USA-that is, until imported vegetables became available for purchase at our nearest super markets. But don't get me started on the subject of imported foods.

That's a whole 'nuther subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:40 AM

When I listed those things I like to do, I forgot to mention the collecting, reading, listening to, and watching children perform children's rhymes.

I suppose that there are a number of children's rhymes that mention pies. But the one that immediately comes to my mind is a hide & go seek rhyme that the person who is "It" chants while other children scatter and hide:

Apple, peaches, pumpkin pie
whose not ready
Holler I

-snip-

This children's hide & seek rhyme was cleverly used as the theme of this 1967 R&B song:

APPLES, PEACHES, PUMPKIN PIE
{Jay & The Techniques}

Ready or not here I come
Gee that used to be such fun

Apples peaches pumpkin pie
Who's afraid to holler I?
That's a game we used to play.
Hide and seek was its name.
Oh ready or not, hear I come,
Gee that used to be such fun.
I always used to find a hiding place,
Times have changed.
Well I'm one step behind you, but still I can't find you
Apple peaches pumpkin pie,
You were young and so was I.
Now that we've grown up it seems
You just keep ignoring me.
I'll find you anywhere you go,
I'll follow you high and low.
You can't escape this love of mine anytime.
Well, I'll sneak up behind you,
Be careful where I find you.
Apple peaches pumpkin pie,
Soon your love will be all mine.
Then I'm gonna take you home,
Marry you so you won't roam.(2x)
Right now I'll find you anywhere you go,
I'm gonna look high and low.
You can't escape this love of mine anytime.
Well, I'll sneak up behind you,
Be careful where I find you.
Ready or not here I come,
Gee that used to be such fun

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/a/applespeachespumpkinpie.shtml

****

Here's a YouTube audio clip of this song witha photo collage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwzYtiDcGkE

Btw, the viewers' comments often make interesting reading. For instance, here's one comment:

"One of my all time favorite records. There seems to be 2 different versions around.This I believe is the original 45 version, its quicker and faster. And there is a slower version with more bass and more laid back . The slower version is the better record. I still love both versions. To me him and his girl use to play hide and seek when they were kids now they're grown up and he still wants her.Very romantic."
-jameycruz


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:51 AM

Here's some more music trivia about the song "Apples Peaches Pumpkin Pie" which was written by Jerry Ross,Kenny Gamble, and Leon Huff.

"AW: Don't I hear Ashford & Simpson singing background?

JR: Funny you should ask. Nick Ashford, Valerie Simpson and Melba Moore sang background on "Sunny", "Mr. Dream Merchant", with Jerry Butler, "Apples, Peaches" and all my Dee Dee Warwick productions. They were always my "go to" backgrounds.

AW: "I'm Gonna Make You Love Me" (Ross/Gamble/Huff) is one of my favourite songs of all time! How did that come about?

JR: When I went to New York to A&R at Mercury, I'd always have Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff come up from Philly and write with me - I gladly opened many doors for them - whenever I had an album to do for Bobby Hebb or Jerry Butler or Jay & the Techniques. "Apples, Peaches, Pumpkin Pie" had just gone Top 10. I always kept an open door for new writers, especially for Kenny and Leon. I loved them and I loved their creativity. They had not started to produce their own records yet. By the way, Tommy Bell was often my keyboard guy.

AW: You guys turned out some incredible stuff!..."

http://www.spectropop.com/JerryRoss/index.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 12:50 PM

Here's my recipe for Key Lime Pie.

Graham Cracker Crust:
1 paper-wrapped package graham crackers (1/3 of a 1 pound box) or 1 cup plus 2 1/2 tablespoons graham cracker crumbs
5 tablespoons melted unsalted butter
1/3 cup sugar
Filling:
3 egg yolks
2 limes, zest grated (about 1 1/2 teaspoons)
1 (14-ounce) can sweetened condensed milk
2/3 cup freshly squeezed lime juice (if you get Key limes, use them: otherwise use regular limes)

Topping:
1 cup heavy or whipping cream, chilled
3 tablespoons of confectioners' sugar

For the graham cracker crust: Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F. Butter a 9-inch pie pan. Break up the graham crackers: place in a food processor and process to crumbs. (If you dont have a food processor, place the crackers in a large plastic bag: seal and then crush the crackers with a rolling pin.) Add the melted butter and sugar and pulse or stir until combined. Press the mixture into the bottom and sides of the pan, forming a neat border around the edge. Bake the crust until set and golden, 8 minutes. Set aside on a wire rack. Leave the oven on.
For the filling: Meanwhile, in a electric mixer with the wire whisk attachment, beat the egg yolks and lime zest at a high speed until very fluffy, abut 5 minutes. Gradually add the condensed milk and continue to beat until thick, 3 or 4 minutes longer. Lower the mixer speed and slowly add the lime juice, mixing just until combined, no longer. Pour mixture into the pie crust. Bake for 10 minutes, or until the filling has set. Cool on a wire rack, then refrigerate. Freeze for 15 to 20 minutes before serving.

For the topping: Whip the cream and the confectioners' sugar until nearly stiff. Cut the pie in wedges and serve very cold, topping each wedge with a large dollop of whipped cream.


During the late summer into the fall I can get key limes at a local grocery store (Bill, it's the Weis Market on Rte. 1 in Savage). They're much, much better. A bag makes enough juice for the pie, with a couple left over to slice thinly for garnish. It's quite tart, but the whipped cream balances it out nicely. You can substitute bottled lime juice, but it's nowhere near as good.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 01:14 PM

Spaw, we did Sweeney in high school way back when. I enjoyed being stage manager, because I got to be sure the chair-flip was in working order every day. :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:40 PM

Azizi said:

but maybe it's the flavoring and not the vegetable-or are pumpkin/sweetpotatos fruit?

Sweet potatoes (note "e") are a vegetable. Or I suppose you could make the distinction and say it's a tuber.

Pumpkin is fruit.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:49 PM

Thanks, Dave.

I admit to being uncertain about how to spell the plural of "potato" and it's all because of Dan Quale. :o}

For those who don't know what I mean,check out this Wikipedia entry:

"The singular spelling variants potato vs. potatoe co-existed into the 19th century. Potatoe in the 20th century came to be considered a misspelling, while the plural remains potatoes.

Vice President of the United States Dan Quayle became notoriously associated with this misspelling in a June 15, 1992 incident. Quayle went to a photo op at Munoz Rivera School in Trenton, New Jersey, where he was to officiate a spelling bee by drawing flash cards and asking students to write the words on the blackboard. Twelve-year-old William Figueroa wrote potato, but Quayle prompted him to append an "e" which, according to Quayle's 1995 Autobiography "Standing Firm", was the spelling on the flash card.[1] The incident briefly made national news in the United States and became a source of entertainment for the tabloid newspapers in the United Kingdom. For the June 25, 1992 rerun of The Simpsons episode "Two Cars in Every Garage and Three Eyes on Every Fish", Bart Simpson's opening chalkboard gag was hastily changed to read, "It's potato, not potatoe". This was also the cause of a Saturday Night Live episode "Mr. Casual Sex", in which Rob Schneider launches into a tirade against Quayle by saying that he is not qualified to discuss family values as he cannot properly spell potato."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potatoe#Spelling


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 03:58 PM

My favorite dessert pie is apple pie (preferably with Granny Smith apples), and with a big slice of SHARP cheddar cheese served with it.

Second favorite, banana cream pie. BUT, none of this instant pudding stuff, and not topped with whipped cream. It's got to be the real cooked sauce, and a meringue topping, about 1-1/2 inches thick. More's the pity, my Beautiful Wife doesn't have the knack for doing a real stand-up meringue, and it ends up thin to begin with and collapses from there.

We have a running joke in our family: When there's a difference of factual understanding or memory, I'll challenge her: "I'll bet you a chocolate souffle against a banana cream pie!" Over the years, she owes me a large number of banana cream pies, because she really drags her feet on making one (because of the unfortunate circumstance cited in the previous paragraph.) I've had to deliver twice, I think, on a chocolate souffle bet.

As to pumpkin pie, I loathe the frothy stuff they make with beaten gelatin. Heresy!

An unusual pie, which I've had only twice in my life, I think, is green-tomato pie. You make it just about like a green-apple pie, with nutmeg and cinnamon in it. It's really good.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 04:01 PM

Azizi, it's my understanding that most in-the-face pies are nothing but crust (if that) and whipped cream. The point is all display, of course, and that's quick, easy, and CHEAP.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:40 PM

My mom made the crust with just a couple teaspoons of vinegar, which you couldn't taste at all after baking. I think maybe it was to reduce the glutenization. One big factor in making good crust is to not mix it too much. She used a fork.

I've got her recipe for the crust, but not the apple pie. If I could ask her what was different, she'd say, "You just make an apple pie and add a lot more cinnamon that what the recipe calls for." We also had a big hunk of cheese with apple pie - cheddar cheese, the stinkier the better. My parents referred to the appropriately aged cheese as 'rat trap' cheese. I loved cheese and I loved my mom's apple pie, but I remember thinking that the combination was something truly bizarre that adults did. I learned to love it though.

I think the separation between apple-pie eaters in the US who like cheese and those who don't may be geographic, with the cheddar fans being in the north east, but I don't know.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: gnu
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 05:49 PM

Rhubarb-Strawberry. And a pot of strong tea.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

Yam (Dioscorea; species sativa or 'cultivated yam' from the Philippines, D. batatas or 'Chinese yam'). The word probably is not African; it originated with the Spanish igname or Portuguese inname, applied to the tuber found by them in the East Indies. The name is probably Asian in origin, but ultimate origin unknown. In print in 1557, and into English in 1588, in Hickok, in "Frederick's Voyage to the East Indies." "...like our turnops but sweete and very good to eate." Hakluyt (1588) in his Voyage, spoke of bread made with it and preferred it to the bread they had; called inany, Italian ignamy. In 1598 they were mentioned from Guinea by Parker, "as big as a man's leg." In 1600, Pory also mentioned them from Africa, and said in the West Indies they were called batate (potato). White and purple types were being discussed by 1699. (Yams and sweet potatoes aleady being confused??)
In 1657, they were being planted in Barbados, Ligon spelt it "yeams." The type cultivated in the West Indies was originally from the East Indies, but the American type called 'Louisiana' and most common probably is a selection from west Africa.
There seems to be room for argument on some of the history of the tuber.
Some authors argue for African origin of the word; I won't swear by either theory, but lean towards the Asian origin, since early usage (OED) leans that way. Webster's mentions the Fulani word, nyami, to eat.
The tubers are found from Australia through the southern Asian region to Africa. Small American members of the genus were used in medicines.

The sweet potato is unrelated to the yam, Ipomoea batatas, a tropical vinelike plant, same family as the morning glory. Rather widespread.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 06:51 PM

a pie poem...attributed to various, including Ben Franklin, but more likely anon.


I LOATHE, abhor, detest, despise,
Abominate dried-apple pies.
I like good bread, I like good meat,
Or anything that's fit to eat;
But of all poor grub beneath the skies,
The poorest is dried apple pies.
Give me the toothache, or sore eyes,
But don't give me dried apple pies.
The farmer takes his gnarliest fruit,
'Tis wormy, bitter, and hard, to boot;
He leaves the hulls to make us cough,
And don't take half the peeling off.
Then on a dirty cord 'tis strung
And in a garret window hung,
And there it serves as roost for flies,
Until it's made up into pies.
Tread on my corns, or tell me lies,
But don't pass me dried-apple pies.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:26 PM

ñame- yam. Should have posted the old Spanish word earlier.

When we find a good plump yam, we microwave the greased tuber on high for about 5 minutes per pound, stopping to turn it over at the halfway point. If not cooked enough, add a couple of minutes more time. It is much better to add time incrementally rather than ruining it by cooking too long.
Remove the skin and mix in butter. Yum!
It seems a sacrilege to make pie with good yams when butter is sufficient for a princely dish. Serve with a slice of smoke-cured ham and biscuits or corn bread- hard to beat!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: wysiwyg
Date: 24 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM

Bill, isn't that sposed to be HORSE-apple pies?

Hardi's fave is persimmon pudding which is sort of a cake, sort of a pie.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:17 AM

Here's another children's rhyme that includes mention of various types of pies:

blueberry raspberry huckelberry pie who will be your lucy guy is it a b c d e f g h ect..(when they get to z start over and when they stop whatever letter they stop on you name a guy)
-Shayla;May 14, 2005 http://blog.oftheoctopuses.com/000518.php


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Micca
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:54 AM

Speaking of American pie, you would have to pull a masterful stroke indeed to surpass or even equal the pie Maeve produced for the party at Sinsulls while I was visiting, I understand it was made from apples grown in Marys garden but it had everything I like in apple pie. It had a delightful pastry top the fruit was firm,not soggy, and tart, not too sweet with a wonderful subtle flaour of an apple variety I didnt recognise all in all a Masterpiece, for which I thank her.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Neil D
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 12:19 PM

The probable originator of pieing as a political act was Aron Kay [4], a Yippie, who pied singer and anti-gay-rights activist Anita Bryant in Des Moines, Iowa, in 1977 (audio footage of the incident is included in the Chumbawamba song Just Desserts, a homage to the concept of pieing).[4] Kay subsequently pied, among many others, William F. Buckley, G. Gordon Liddy, E. Howard Hunt, William Shatner, and Andy Warhol. Kay retired in 1992 after pieing right-wing activist Randall Terry. His exploits live on though. He appears in cartoon form in a 2003 animated music video, "Death penalty for pot" by Benedict Arnold and The Traitors, where he and Dana Beal pie George W. Bush and former U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft (at 2 minutes and 33 seconds into the video).[5]...

Azizi,
    I thought I posted this from work yesterday but it didn't take so this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different.
    If memory serves I believe that Aron Kay began his career as a serial pie thrower locally (for me)when he pied the president of Kent State University. It was during the gymnasium controversy in 1977. The university wanted to build a new gym that would partially obscure the site of the events of May 4, 1970. Some people saw this as an attempt to obscure hsitory or even cover up a crime scene since there were still active cases involving the Ohio National Guard and the state government. This sparked a whole series of protests in itself, including a tent city and a brief occupation of the Administration Building. (Two of my friends, students at the time, were recruited as "Official Observers" on the premise that with so many conflicting eye-witness accounts of May 4, 1970, objective observers could somehow keep an accurate accounting in the case of violence happening again in 1977. They even had official jackets with OBSERVER printed on the back.)
    In any case it was during a press conference by President Glenn Olds that he was pied by Aron Kay. There were Yippies I met on Youngstown's North Side at that time who knew Mr. Kay quite well and were utterly geeked when he began to receive national media attention for his pie throwing escapades.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:02 PM

this is a repost. Not a riposte, that's different

Neil D, that was a good one.

"Repost" is a new word. Actually, I'm not sure it's officially recognized as a word, though I know it means posting something again {writing something to a website again}.

Thanks also Neil, for that additional info on "pieing" {which is another new word, or at least is one that expands the original definition of "pies"}.

**


Speaking of which, thanks, Dave for the info you posted about pieing. I'm glad that "most in-the-face pies are nothing but crust (if that) and whipped cream." I mean people are starving over seas {and in the USA too}. So I'd hate to think that real pies were being wasted by being thrown in people's faces.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:18 PM

Jeri said:

I think the separation between apple-pie eaters in the US who like cheese and those who don't may be geographic, with the cheddar fans being in the north east, but I don't know.

I'm originally from Minnesota, if that makes any difference.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM

Repost appeared in 1733, applied to a second strike by an adversary in fencing ("English Fencing Master).
Any word which can take the meaning of a repeat action when re- is added is 'legal' in English, and need not be regarded as a new word.
"....freely employed in English as a prefix to verbs." (OED)

The pie-in-the face appeared in a 1909 movie, Ben Turpin's "Flip." Fatty Arbuckle and Mabel Normand used the gag in silent films; Mabel Normand is credited with throwing the first pie on-screen in 1913.

Movie- historians, please tell us- what kind of pie?
Buster Keaton perfected the art, using cream pies. See Keaton Pies


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:41 PM

Are American pies always sweet? For me, on the other side of the Atlantic, the great pies are savoury - steak, kidney and oyster/anchovy; chicken, bacon and mushroom; fish pie - or the great 'coffin pies' with cold-crust pastry, like veal, pork and veal and ham.
Sorry, drooling already!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

Oh my no! We also have meat pies, quiche (cheese pie) and other savoury pies. Are aspics in a crust considered pie?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM

Captain Ginger, the non-fruit or non-vegetable pies I've ever eaten are chicken pies and beef pies {waaay back when I ate beef}. These pies were never home made but were the small pot pies that are sold in the supermarket frozen food sections.

Actually, I {and I bet many other "UnitedStaters"} categorized real pies as dessert only. Store bought chicken pot pies and beef pot pies consist of vegetables, a gravey like sauce, and very little poultry or meat. I never really thought of this quick meal as real pies. Instead, they were "potpies"-the two words running together to refer to something completely different than apple pies, or lemon merangue pies, or other sweet pastry desserts.

However, I suppose with age should come wisdom, or at least knowledge. And I now know that pies don't have to be sweet.

**

This website on the history of pies may be of interest to folks reading this thread: http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html

In addition to having hyperlinks to entries such as Shepherd's pie,
Shoofly pie, Sweet potato pie, Pot pie; Pumpkin pie; Quiche; Boston cream pie; Cape Breton pork pies; Chess pie; Key lime pie, and more,
this page provides excerpts on the history of pies from a number of scholarly sources.

Here are two examples:

"Patissiere...Prehistoric man made sweet foods based on maple or birch syrup, wild honey, fruits, and seeds. It is thought that the idea of cooking a cereal paste on a stone in the sun to make pancakes began as far back in time as the Neolithic age...In the Middle Ages in France, the work of bakers overlapped with that of the pastrycooks; bakers made gingerbread and meat, cheese, and vegetable pies...However, it was the Crusaders who gave a decisive impetus to patisseries, by discovering sugar cane and puff pastry in the East. This lead to pastrycooks, bakers, and restauranteurs all claiming the same products as their own specialties, and various disputes arose when one trade encroached upon the other...Another order, in 1440, gave the sole rights for meat, fish, and cheese pies to patisseries, this being the first time that the word appeared. Their rights and duties were also defined, and certain rules were established...In the 16th century, patissier products were still quite different from the ones we know today. Choux pastry is said to have been invented in 1540 by Popelini, Catherine de' Medici's chef, but the pastrycook's art only truly began to develop in the 17th century and greatest innovator at the beginning of the 19th century was indubitably [Antonin] Careme...There were about a hundred pastrycooks in Paris at the end of the 18th century. In 1986 the count for the whole of France was over 40,000 baker-pastrycooks and 12,5000 pastrycooks."
---Larousse Gastronomique, Jenifer Harvey Lang, editor [Crown:New York] 1988 (p. 777-8)

"The bakers of France made cakes too until one day in 1440 when a specialist corporation, the corporation of pastrycooks, deprived them of the right to do so. The pastrycooks had begun by making pies--meat pies, fish pies...Romans had known how to make a kind flaky pastry sheet by sheet, like modern filo pastry, but the new method of adding butter, folding and rolling meant that the pastry would rise and form sheets as it did so. Louis XI's favourite marzipan turnovers were made with flaky pastry...From the sixteenth century onwards convents made biscuits and fritters to be sold in the aid of good works...Missionary nuns took their talents as pastrycooks to the French colonies..."
---History of Food, Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat [Barnes & Noble Books:New York] 1992 (p. 242-244) "


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:19 PM

I used to make a broccoli/beef pie quite often. It was very blah/bland and I never figured out how to fix it up. Might try again one of these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 05:50 PM

TOURTIÈRE (Pork Pie)
(French-Canadian classic)

Quebec Tourtière Pastry
4 cups sifted flour
1 tsp salt
1 cup lard
4 tablespoons hard butter
2 eggs, beaten
6 tablespoons cold water
Sift flour and salt into a bowl; cut in lard until mixture resembles fine oatmeal, then cut in hard butter coarsely and stir in eggs and water mixed together. Chill dough for 30 minutes before rolling out.
Makes two 9-inch tourtières.
Note: Rich and flaky. Before baking, place a cupped square of foil on rack below rack holding the pies to catch fat drips.

Filling
1/4 lb salt pork, diced (or streaky bacon)
1 onion, chopped
1/2 clove garlic, crushed (2-3 cloves of
the bland stuff from the grocery)
3 lbs shoulder pork, minced
2 teaspoons salt (old recipe, before diet Nazis)
2 teaspoons chopped celery leaves
2 teaspoons chopped parsley
1/8 teaspoon each, mace and chevril
1/4 teaspoon powdered cloves
Pinch cayenne
1 bay leaf
1 1/2 - 2 cups bouillon or meat stock

Sauté salt pork until crisply browned. Add onion and stir-fry until onion is transparent, then add remaining ingredients. Simmer, stirring occasionally, until thickened, about 35-40 minutes. If you plan to serve the tourtière hot, crumble one or two slices day-old French bread into it to absorb juice and keep the meat from spreading when you cut the pie.
Roll out pastry to line 2 9-inch pie pans. Add the meat mixture. Dampen the rims and roll out the top crusts. Seal the edges and bake at 425 F for 15 minutes. Reduce heat to 350 F and continue baking for about 30 minutes.
Note: Frozen unbaked tourtière turns out crisp and piping hot if baked at 400 F for 25 minutes, then at 350 F for 40 minutes.

There are many variations depending upon the cook. You may choose to leave salt out of the mixture if the bouillon or stock is salty.

A wonderful dish on a cold day. This recipe from the Canadian "The Chatelaine Cookbook," 1965 edition.

The following simplified Quebec Tourtière recipe from Madame Jehane Benoit, "Encyclopedia of Canadian Cuisine," 1963, is for one pie.

1 pound minced pork
1 small onion, chopped
1 clove garlic, minced
1/2 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon savory
1/4 teaspoon celery pepper
1/4 teaspoon ground cloves
1/2 cup water
1/4 to 1/2 cup bread crumbs

Place all ingredients in saucepan except bread crumbs. Bring to a boil and cook 20 minutes, uncovered, over medium heat.
Add a few spoonfuls bread crumbs, let stand 10 minutes. If the fat is sufficiently absorbed by the bread crumbs, do not add more. If not, continue in the same manner.
Cool and pour into pastry-lined pie pan. Cover with pastry. Bake in a 500 F oven until top is well-browned. Serve hot.
Optional
For gravy, heat a can of undiluted cream of mushroom soup (or your own gravy favorite).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:18 PM

We make chicken pot pie from left-over roast chicken and chopped fresh vegetables.
The deli of the grocery in our neighborhood makes excellent chicken pot pies, with chopped chicken, broccoli, carrots, green beans, etc. We pick up one when we don't want to cook. Their salads are also very good.

The Tourtière reminded me of the French-Canadian Christmas Paté de Noel- layers of turkey, chicken, pork, veal (cut from knuckles), mushrooms, in a savory jelly and enclosed in rich glazed pastry. The pork layer is minced with brandy and broth. It is a major project for the family.
Traditionally served at the first feast of Reveillon, following Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:20 PM

I was a bit surprised to see lemon meringue pies claimed as American ...there's a beautiful old English recipe for them too, as well as "Queen Charlotte's Tart" which uses oranges and lemons for the filling.   I love a good rhubarb pie myself, although I tend to make rhubarb or gooseberry into a crumble instead - and the best ever crumbles are blackberry and apple, in my opinion at least.

Mincemeat was mentioned earlier - back in history they would have included real meat, but today the closest we come to that normally is to put some suet into the mixture of dried fruits and peel (and brandy). Definitely a feature of Christmas food. I make small mince pies and use lemon juice in the pastry.

As to meat pies - oh, the choices we have! Steak and kidney, chicken and ham (or chicken and mushroom, but no one eats mushrooms in this house but me), steak and ale, lamb, veal and ham, raised pork pies ....*drool*

Don't have the lyrics to hand, but there was a great eulogy to American pies in the film "Michael", sung by Andie McDowell.

Anne


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: mg
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

I had that Tourtière once in Maine..delicious.. I was just thinking of poor Envangaline today...if you haven't read the poem since they made you in high school, read it again..it is very sad.

Anyway, read up on the health benefits of lard vs. Crisco. I am not up on Crisco but it at least used to be made of transfats..don't know how it would not be now but maybe they changed it. Anyway, lard would be much much healthier for most people rather than transfats..

Whether it is healthier than not eating lard at all would depend on one's ancestry...many groups co-evolved eating pig fat and I can't imagine how it would hurt them..Polish people, mid-Europeans etc. If it is not in your genetic heritage, then anyone's guess. We did not evolve to eat transfats and they are about the worst things possible for us as they are said to muck up the cell membranes..seriously bad..so go back to lard if that is your preference..otherwise, butter, olive oil, coconut oil (many health benefits and great for baking some things..)...anything but transfats and spread the word however you can...mg


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:50 PM

Crisco has no trans fats nor cholesterol. It's got a load of saturated fats though. (I bought some to grease my bird-feeder pole last summer and still have most of it left.)


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Peace
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM

Steak and Kidley Pie is tops, IMO. The other tops, imo, is Tourtiere. My aunt makes the very best tourtiere in the world. Bar none, no kidding.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:00 PM

I suppose I might be able to eat a kiddley pie IF I could get past the smell of kiddleys boiling down.....ugh.

Now, steak and ale pie...bring it ON! Leave out the mushrooms tho.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 07:58 PM

I love steak and kidney pie with a passion!

But, more's the pity, it's been several years since I had any. "Why?", I hear someone ask.

It's hard, hard, hard to find lamb kidneys these days. The way meats are distributed--precut at the plant, and sent out to stores where there usually are meat merchandisers or meat-counter help but not real butchers--means that the kidneys are separated from the carcasses rather than sent to the stores. I suspect that the kidneys are diverted to the petfood industry.

My wife has started frequenting farmers markets these days, where it's sometimes possible to find a small, independent, family meat producer supplying and manning a booth, and just sometimes they may have lamb kidneys, but they are often snapped up by the early-morning shoppers at the farmers market.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 08:18 PM

The recent proliferation of fake English pubs across Canada (and some states) has also stopped the appearance of the kidneys in our butcher shops. The pubs have their orders in with the distributors, so they tell me, leaving none for the retail market. In my city, a couple of the pubs have properly prepared steak and kidney pie, but most make a mess of it.
A number of what used to be lower price meats are used in signature dishes in better restaurants. Oxtails, the shanks for Osso bucco, etc. are hard to find and must be ordered well in advance from the butcher.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: frogprince
Date: 25 Nov 07 - 10:14 PM

My very favoritist pie in the whole world is banana cream. I never turn up my nose at proper apple, blueberry, cherry, strawberry-rhubarb, or 5-fruit pie I discovered a couple of years ago in Canada.
I have countless good memories of pies, and just one not so good. A few years ago, word went out in advance of a company picnic that there would be a relay team pie-eating race; blueberry pie, with each contestant to eat one fourth of a pie, no hands. I tried to go easy on the rest of the picnic food to allow for the pie. So we all lined up, and they started sitting out one half a pie for each person. I got mine down, and our team won, but it was a while befor I wanted blueberry pie again.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 12:32 AM

Grin....I still have a real butcher, and they will save and sell me what ever I want. Grocery store/butcher also owns the packing house. I want lamb kidneys, just ask now and they will save them come spring.

I want brains, they will save them. (No, I don't actually WANT brains) but you get my drift here.

This place processes everything but chickens themselves, and they own associated ranches which also raise it all. Yea, I know I'm lucky. No additives, antibiotics, chances of mad cow disease are VERY slim.

Regarding their chickens, they sell both Tyson and Smart Chicken. Tyson is now advertising 'organic/no additive' chicken....I'm not sure I believe that.

Only problem is, really, that if I want veal or real calf liver I have to promise to buy the entire calf, lamb or whatever. Not truly an insurmountable problem though.

This place also does all the processing for the County Fair 4-H animals that are sold at public auction every August.

Small towns, gotta love 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:10 AM

Buy 2 premade shortcrust pastry shells.

Buy 2 cans of sweetened condensed milk - one each in 'caramel' and 'chocolate' flavours.

Put half the chocolate in each shell, then top with half each of the caramel.

You can add cherries, coconut, etc.

This is a great time saver, as previously you had to boil the can of condensed milk for 4 hours (without it boiling dry, exploding, and redecorating the kitchen!) to make the caramel flavour. The chocolate had to be made the hard way by mixing...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 02:54 PM

WHITE TRASH LEMON PIE

Especially for Foolestroupe

1 large can condensed milk (Pet or eq.)
1 cup sugar
1 can Eagle Brand condensed milk (thick and sweet)
3/4 cup Real Lemon lemon juice or eq. (bottled)

Chill the Pet milk thoroughly, then whip. Add sweet condensed milk and sugar. Add lemon juice. Mix.
Pour into Sue Ella Lightfoot's Graham cracker crust and chill. Makes two 9-inch pies.

Sue Ella's GRAHAM CRACKER CRUST

Mash up Graham crackers with a fork. Mix with oleomargerine until all stuck together. Press into pie pan. Fill with mixture.

(Ef yer feelin' ritzy, use Oreo's fer the crust (lick off the fillin' fust)).

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and many reprints, "White Trash Cooking," Jargon Society, p. 107 (filling), p. 110 (crust).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM

SWEET POTATO PONE

4 cups raw yams
2 cups molasses or dark corn syrup
1 cup brown sugar
1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 cup warm milk

Mix ingredients; pour into greased baking dish. Bake in moderate oven until nice crust forms on top (about 45 minutes). Serve hot with unsweetened cream, plain or whipped.

Consider this a pie without crust.
Sweet Pone was a great white trash favorite.

Ernest Matthew Mickler, 1986 and reprints, "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

PLAIN OL' POTATO PONE
(can be modified and put in pie shell if desired)

1 cup milk
3 medium-size sweet potatoes
1 cup molasses
2 teaspoons cinammon
3 eggs
1/4 stick oleomargerine

Bake sweet potatoes (yams) or use leftovers. Take off skins and mash them up. To the potatoes, add all other ingredients. Mix well and put in an iron skillet and bake at 350 F for 25-30 minutes.
Now this is a real pone. "Dig in and make yourself at home- if you ain't, you oughta be."
A favorite of Betty Sue Swilley.
Recipe from "White Trash Cooking," p. 99.

Harper Lee, author of "To Kill a Mocking Bird," called this book a sociological document of beauty. "... with two generations of prosperity white trash looks like gentry- we've long needed something other than the ballot box to remind us of their presence. "White Trash Cooking" is a beautiful testament to a stubborn people of proud and poignant heritage" (written in 1886).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:08 PM

Actually Q,

I've graduated - I used to use the 'scotch finger bikkies and butter' crust, but now I'm too lazy... :-P


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM

bikkies- bikinis?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 07:43 PM

Biscuits - see http://www.arnotts.com.au/products/ScotchFinger.aspx

recipie

http://www.arnotts.com.au/yourrecipes/SweetLemonSlice.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

Here's a question for ya:

That Food Timeline: pie & pastry website whose link I provided in my
25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM post includes pizza in its list of pies/pastries.

So is pizza the same thing as a cheese pie?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:18 PM

Btw, Foolestroupe, here's your blue clickies:

http://www.arnotts.com.au/products/ScotchFinger.aspx

and

http://www.arnotts.com.au/yourrecipes/SweetLemonSlice.aspx


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 10:01 PM

A cheese pie, a great, delicately flavored dessert, should not be confused with a savory cheese quiche or pie. A pizza may lack cheese altogether, like the basic Italian pizza.
See "The Joy of Cooking," Rombauer and Becker for Cheese Pie. The following is from there; NOT tried by us. I am posting as an example only.
We do like the simpler applesauce-cheese one (below).

CHEESE PIE
The baking dish and crust lining should be prepared a day in advance.
Filling-
1. Dissolve 1 cup sugar in 1/4 cup cream
2. Add
2 pounds smooth cottage cheese (abt. 2 pints)
4 beaten eggs (or 4 beaten yolks, see 3. optional)
3 tablespoons flour
1 teaspoon pure vanilla
(or- 2 1/2 tablespoons lemon juice
and 1 teaspoon grated lemon rind.
Or- other flavorings)
3. Optional- Whip until stiff 4 egg whites and 1/4 teaspoon salt.
Fold into cheese mixture.

Prepare a crumb crust. Make enough for a topping (about 1/2 cupful needed). Or prepare a galette crust.
BASIC CRUMB CRUST
1 1/2 cups Graham cracker crumbs, ground fine
1/4 cup fine (confectioners') sugar (amount according to taste)
6 tablespoons melted butter
Cinnamon (optional)
Chill thoroughly. It can be prepared well in advance of use.

Line a deep baking dish, pressing the crust on the bottom and sides. Use an oven-proof baking dish 9 inches wide and 2 1/2 inches deep.
Chill thoroughly and let set, preferably for a day, before filling.

4. Fill prepared shell with the cheese mixture and sprinkle on the topping. Bake at 350 F for about 1 hour.

There are variations. The crust prepared with butter is richer.
-------------------------------------------
We have made only a simple cheese pie, with applesauce. A goody!

APPLESAUCE CHEESE PIE

Combine and beat together-
Applesauce, No. 2 can
Condensed milk, 1 can (15 oz)
Rind and juice of 1 lemon
3 egg yolks
Beat until stiff and fold in:
3 egg whites
1/8 teaspoon salt
Put into chilled crumb crust, in deep 9-inch oven proof dish. Cover with crumbs.
Bake at 375 F for about 50 minutes.

Crumb lining-
2 cups Graham cracker crumbs
3/4 cup melted butter
1 1/2 teaspoons cinammon
Line a 9-inch, deep baking dish, reserving enough for a top (about 1 cup). Chill thoroughly before use.

My wife's expertise required for these pies, I make a mess.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:30 AM

Azizi the pie mistress notes much further up the thread:" The word yam comes from African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat,"
and
" They are also marketed by their Spanish names, boniato and ñame..."
For our non Spanish speaking friends the tilde over the n in ñame results in a word that sounds like "NYAHMAE" ...essentiaslly the same as the second African example; NYAMI
It's like language mixes together like pie fillings or somethin'.
Regarding the supposed jewel of Carribean pies, Key Lime, I have tried mightily to like it, but it always tastes like floor cleaner in a graham cracker crust to me. I've even tried several samples in Key West which were declared wonderful and perfect by their proponents.
My reaction: PTOOOEY!
Give me freash peach pie any day.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:06 AM

Fresh, even


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

Skivee, make the key lime in a normal lard pie shell, preparing it like a fresh lemon meringue pie. I agree that the usual cracker crust version is pretty bad. Seasonally we get key limes in the groceries here in Canada, the best from Central America. The 'key lime' is Asian, and was grown in North Africa and Spain before making its way to the Caribbean region.

Following a comment about lemon meringue pies in England- they are in 19th c. English and American cookbooks; whether the first was English or American, dunno.

As I posted previously, the name ñame and similar was first applied to sweet potatoes by 16th c. Spanish and Portuguese in the East Indies. The word origin is unknown, but the supposed African origin may be based on coincidence of words from different languages. It is also possible that the name was carried from SE Asia to west Africa by traders. Comparison has been made with the Fulani word 'to eat' but this seems to be coincidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:04 PM

I'm not sure, but I think a question about mincemeat was left hanging.

While it consists mostly of dried/spiced fruit, "mincemeat" does ineed contain meat, just a bit of animal flesh in the form of suet. Not a vegetarian dish, by any means, even if you eschew lard in the crust. (Of course, since you're eating meat anyway, you might as well go all out when baking a mince pie, and make your crust with lard for maximum flakiness.)

Mince pie was my late father's favorite (especially with a scoop of vanilla ice cream). He was undoubtedly introduced to this delicacy by his parents, who both grew up in Ireland and then lived in Liverpool for a couple of years, after getting married and before emigrating to America. In my lifetime, my Mom made mince pies, but only at Thanksgiving and Chrismas, and she never made the mincemeat from scratch. We bought the canned prepared stuff, which is getting harder and harder to find these days.

I've bought a can of mincemeat on occasion when I saw it at the supermarket during the pre-holiday period, and either persuaded my wife to make a crust or just done it myself. (Hers is better, but mine is usually passable.) It's been a while, though ~ we probably haven't eaten mincemeat, or even seen it on a groceryt shelf, since before Katrina (Aug '05).


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:27 PM

We always made mince and pumpkin pies at Christmas time. Ours were like PoppaGator's, with suet. We make a hard sauce with brandy for a topping, and, when someone sends us a 'plum pudding,' the same topping for it. We get a pretty good 'store' mincemeat here in Canada, in a glass jar, forget the brand.
My wife likes to make small 'tarts' filled with mincemeat. The small shells that are sold packaged are pretty good for the purpose, but mostly are made with vegetable oil rather than lard.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:43 PM

Q ~ thanks for mentioning "hard sauce." It's been years!

I remember the glass jars of mincemeat, but I've seen cans more recently, and neither for a couple of years. The one mincemeat brand name that comes to mind to "Nonesuch."


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:24 PM

Sorry for repeating your yam info, Q. I guess my eyes were swimming after reading so much pie lore.
Thanks for the suggestion of the lard crust, but my distaste for the Key Lime will not be affected by whatever unsuspecting crust it's thrown at. This is an evil mistake to foist on otherwise content pie eaters. It has the subtlety of Paris Hilton ("That pie is HOT!") without the money.
No right thinking person would ever eat a Key Lime pie. It's the work of Satan. Small children should be warned about Key Lime pie at the same time they learn about not touching the stove and eschewing candy from strangers, especially clowns. Dick Cheney eats Key Lime pie for breakfast.
Scientists recently discovered that Key Limes are the source of HIV.
Key Limes are what Lovecraft modeled Cthulu after.
Did I mention that I don't like them?...better, now...pills starting to work.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:35 PM

I'm getting to this thread late - but Key Lime Pie is one of God's gifts to man. I've been known to make them with an Oreo cookie crust. It's the best thing you can enjoy that involves keeping your clothes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:52 PM

Key Lime Pie is, as I see it, just a nice variation of Lemon Merangue [sp?] Pie. Certainly nothing to get so terribly worked up about.

Many folks prefer the relatively rare Key Lime to the ubiquitous Lemon, others are glad to stick with the familiar and order the Lemon. But there just ain't that very great a difference!

Skivee, do you hate lemon pie that much, or almost as much? If not, why not ~ can you really discern that great a difference?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

Skivee and Wesley will duel. Watch for announcement of time and place.

My 'hate' is rhubarb-raspberry pie, which is often seen in stores here. Rhubarb by itself is fine, but together? Ugh!

How about strawberry pie, topped with sweetened whipped cream? Even better than Banana Cream pie.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:41 PM

As a matter of fact I enjoy lemon merangue (sp? for me too, but it looks about right) quite a bit. I also enjoy limeade. I had a bottle of limeade on the table next to me as I type this. I don't have a problem with any member of the citrus clan...just this evil use that those limes have been put to.
I don't care for mincemeat or rhubarb either but I do allow that those enjoy them are not the handmaidens of underworld imps.
Perhaps I was bullied and abused by Key Limes pies as a small child but repressed the memory.
For the record, I am prepared to meet Wesley any time or place to beat this wrong-headed unholy alleagence out of him. I consider it my duty as a Christian...like an intervention. Don't thank me. I don't do it for personal glory.



There's a possibility that 2 versions of this response may show up. If so, the nastier version should be used as the prefered edit.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:20 PM

Skivee, thanks for that information about the Spanish pronunciation of the word for yam.

I find the wording of Q's statements about the etymology of the word "yam" to be interesting. Q says that "The word origin is unknown, but the supposed African origin may be based on coincidence of words from different languages. It is also possible that the name was carried from SE Asia to west Africa by traders. Comparison has been made with the Fulani word 'to eat' but this seems to be coincidence".

In the case of unknowns, one theory might just as likely be true as another theory. Things "may be" or "seem to be" one way to one person and a different way to another person for reasons known and unknown. Be that as it may or may not be, I prefer to say that the word "yam" is likely to have originally come from the West African words njam, nyami, or djambi, meaning "to eat.

It seems as though Q is likely to say that these words did not originally come from an African source, and that the existence of Africans words that are similar to the word "yam" and that have a similar meaning as "yam", or at least refer to eating is just coincidences.

To each his or her own.

****

Just because others may be interested in this somewhat off topic subject, and not as a means of proving or disproving something that probably can't be proven one way or another {the etymology of the word "yam"}, here's some information about the role of yams in West African traditional cultures:

"In addition to being popular foods, cocoyams and yams have always carried social and cultural significance. In Nigeria, the cocoyam festival, Alube, is celebrated annually in May. Yams are intertwined in the social, cultural, and religious life of the farming communities where they are the major crop. In remote areas of West Africa, yams were an important status symbol, conferring prestige on families who consumed large quantities. Many customs dictate that yams should be used to wean babies, and special yam dishes are prepared for birth rituals and the naming ceremony for children. In some societies, yams are also important foods for funerals as ceremonial offerings to the gods and to the spirits of the departed, in others as food during the funeral feasts.

Throughout West Africa, the yam is revered by many traditional societies including the Ibo of eastern and midwestern Nigeria. Although many of their customs have been lost or modified due to European influence, it is believed that the Ibo are more devoted to yam cultivation than any other yam producers. Their religious devotion to the food has prevented its displacement by other crops.

The New Yam Festival is, in many West African regions, the most important celebration of the year. The annual festivals are associated with planting but more particularly with the yam harvest. Some of the groups that celebrate the festival include the Ashanti of Ghana, the Ibo and Yako of eastern Nigeria, the Yoruba of western Nigeria, the peoples of the eastern Ivory Coast, the Ewe of Togo, the people of Benin, the Tiv of the Benue region of northern Nigeria, and the Kalabari of the eastern Niger Delta."

http://www.answers.com/topic/western-africa


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:22 PM

Correction:

It seems as though Q is likely to say that these words did not originally come from an African source, and that the existence of Africans words that are similar to the word "yam" and that have a similar meaning as "yam", or at least refer to eating are just coincidences.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:45 PM

Or the coincidence of words for yams and eating that arose in different parts of the world are a simple reflection of the joyous vocal expression of children, since yams taste sweet and good, who while eating them said some variation of "nom nom nom!yum yum yum! nam nam nam!", thereby giving their parents a useful name for the vegetable.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:47 PM

100


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:51 PM

My comments on the East Indies origin of the word ñame or yam are based on the information in the Oxford English Dictionary, as I posted somewhere far above. Not my speculation, but their conclusion based on 16th c. records.

The possibility of the name being carried to Africa from the east Indies by traders is my speculation, although I qualified it with the possibility of coincidence in different languages.

The sweet potato-yam was just as important in the East Indies as it is in Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Janie
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:38 PM

I'm gonna try vinegar in the crust. Thanks, Jeri.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:31 PM

Man, I wish I could find the material I read a while ago regarding the differences, or lack therefore, between "yams" and "sweet potatoes," at least in the US.

Here's a summary of what I remember. Disclaimer: I can't swear that I remember all of this perfectly, but it's the best I can do.

The two terms ARE used interchangeably for the same root vegetable here in North America. In some cases, in some regions, there is ~ or used to be ~ a meaningful difference between the two.

The word "yam" was at one time used among Louisiana growers, to the exclusion of "sweet potato." Here's where my memory starts to falter: I think I recall something about an effort on the part of Louisiana farmers to copyright or otherwise reserve the word "yam" to distinguish their supposedly superior product from the "sweet potatoes" grown elsewhere. But whatever they may have tried to do, they did not succeed.

In any event, I've never heard anyone use the phrase "yam pie." It's always "sweet potato pie" ~ even when the main ingredient was purchased from a vendor who called it "yam."

I grew up white in New Jersey eating pumpkin pie after all the great holiday dinners, and never even heard of sweet potato pie until adolescence. I probably never tasted one until even later, after finishing collge and moving to New Orleans.

Pumpkin and sweet potato pies both use the same spices, etc., and are pretty much the same color ~ sweet potato just a little browner, pumpkin just slightly orange-er. I find the flavors sufficiently similar to enjoy either one. Sweet potato is a little sweeter and smoother in texture than pumpkin, but since different cooks will use different quantities of sugar/sweetener, and apply different amounts of "elbow grease" to the mixing process, these differences can be very slight.

Therefore, I can't understand anyone claiming to like one of these pies while disliking the other for any culinary reason; that is, for any reason except ethnic solidarity ("our people always make the pie from this vegetable, not the other").

Now, I'll concede one point: sweet potato pie is usually made from fresh yams, or at least whole peeled-and-canned yams. Canned pre-pureed pumpkin is undoubtedly used for many times as many pumpkin pies than is fresh pumpkin. So, insofar as fresh is generally preferable to processed, the typical pumpkin pie could be seen as less desirable than its sweet-potato counterpart.

But then again, I don't discern a critical difference between lime-meringue and lemon-meringue pie, either. Maybe I just don't have a sufficiently discerning palate...


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:49 PM

"For the record, I am prepared to meet Wesley any time or place to beat this wrong-headed unholy alleagence out of him. I consider it my duty as a Christian...like an intervention. Don't thank me. I don't do it for personal glory."

For the record - I am willing to allow Skivee to wallow in his ignorance. I can only assume he's a lowly type - perhaps even a bodhran player. Perhaps someday his taste buds will mature to the point that he will be able to enjoy the subtle flavors of a good Key Lime pie. Until that time - let him eat lemons.

As to his claims that he sampled Key Lime pie in Key West - I imagine that his navigational skills actually led him to New Jersey instead. Where they consider a pie to be a cheese pizza!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:37 PM

Therefore, I can't understand anyone claiming to like one of these pies while disliking the other for any culinary reason; that is, for any reason except ethnic solidarity ("our people always make the pie from this vegetable, not the other").
-Poppagator

Ethnic solidarity has nothing at all to do with my preference for sweet potato pies over pumpkin pies. They may look alike, but they darn sure don't taste alike to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Neil D
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:10 PM

Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:15 PM

Here's a question for ya:

That Food Timeline: pie & pastry website whose link I provided in my
25 Nov 07 - 03:09 PM post includes pizza in its list of pies/pastries.

So is pizza the same thing as a cheese pie?

    Someone once told me that pizza is actually the Italian word for pie. I don't know if this is true. Any Italian speakers out there?
I know in NY pie is slang for pizza. As in: Hey woulda ya want on yer pie? Pepperoni or sausage?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Skivee
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:12 PM

To Wesley, that sad allegient to his anctient religion of Citrufarianism, I say, "There are none so blind as those who will not not eat Key Lime pie."and,"If thine pie offends thee, chuck it out."
As for your accusation that I am a bodhran player, it is a badge I wear proudly...or at least I don't cover it up with more than two layers of black gaffers tape.
We were INDEED in Key West. Our navigator did the navigation, and I trust her like the back of my hand. The pleasently scented breezes blowning past the garbage dumps and chemical factories certainly add to the flavor of the island.
As to the pie itself: It was a visually perfect pie with the merangue lightly browned, and the tomato sauce on top of it was gayly* festooned with tropical pepperonni, island mushrooms and key lime mozarella.
My friends all told me that I was a brave boy for trying it in spite of my past experiences. I blame the French.
You, sirrah, are a deluded husk of a man. If my pity wasn't shot off in the war, I would pity you.
Key Lime Pie is just nasty. This is a proven scientific fact, not opinion. Praise FSM.



*That's how I knew it was Key West.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:16 PM

LOL! Hey, bros, wanna fight? ROF
Now, as to yams and sweet potatoes....we actually have yellow skinned in our grocery right now! Usually, just the brown skinned/orange flesh ones, always labeled 'sweet potatoes'.

The yellow skinned ones are actually being called........YAMS!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:47 PM

I just went to my cupboard to check the label of the 2lb can of sweet potatoes that I purchased the other day to make a sweet potato pie.

Lo and behold, I found out that the label said Bruce's Yams!

LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:25 PM

Both the orange-fleshed and yellow-fleshed tubers are varieties of sweet potatoes, of the genus Ipomoea (morning glory) family, mostly of temperate climes. The orange-colored are sometimes called yams but are not related to the 'true yam' (Dioscorea) of tropical Africa and other tropical areas.
See pictures here: yam and sweet potato

I was wrong in my posts above- I thought the orange-fleshed ones were the Dioscorea type or true yam. I should have checked before posting my 'gems of knowledge'.
Checking other websites, including that of Ohio State University, they agree with the material stated in the linked website.


The Dioscorea yam is not grown in the USA. All sweet potatoes here are Asian varieties of Ipomoea which have become very widespread in planting. Selection of varieties and selective breeding has led to several varieties in grocers bins.

The Dioscorea (true yam) needs a tropical to subtropical climate and is not suited to the United States. It is widely grown in tropical parts of Africa. Any post that states that the yam in North America is an import from Africa is wrong; some are grown in the West Indies but not in the USA. I have made this mistake in some of the posts above.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM

Sorry, I got the website with the pictures incorrectly linked.
Sweet potatoes


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:36 PM

Too much wine with dinner? The Ohio State link:
sweet potato

Dunno how the entire note on the OSU site got turned into a link. Oh, well, colored ink is purty.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Sorcha
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

Now I'm REALLY confoozeled! LOL!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:36 PM

Well, as Bob Marley sung "We're yammin'. We yammin'...I hope you like yammin' too"

:o)}

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiktFkwfE2o


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: frogprince
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:57 PM

Wesley, you said key lime pie is "the best thing you can enjoy that involves keeping your clothes on". Why should eating pie necessarily involve keeping your clothes on??. Heck, if you drop some in your lap, skin washes easier than pants. If you're really lucky, someone will help you clean it up!


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:24 AM

I'm more than confoozled today. I know nothing about this recipe, and have added cautions in ( ) from other sites, but to counter Bob Marley, here's a more palatable jam:

SWEET POTATO JAM

Sweet potatoes, 1 kilogram (2.2 lbs)
Sugar, 2 cups
Cinnamon, 1 stick
Cloves, 2
Grated orange peel, 1

Cook sweet potatoes with the grated orange peels. Peel them and strain to avoid sweet potato fibers. Mix the sweet potato, sugar, a piece of the grated orange peel, cinammon and cloves in a pot. Put it on the heat and mix it until it acquires a jam consistency. Continue mixing so that it does not stick on the bottom and remove from heat. Bottle it hot (in sterile jars) and let cool. Place in refrigerator (perishable, not a good keeper). (When a jar is opened, serve within a week).
Sweet Potato Jam

In the foreign food sections, Filipino purple yam jam (Halayang Ube) may sometimes be found in jars. There also are Caribbean yam jams.

American Yam Jam may be ordered from this supplier of Cajun foods:
Yam Jam
Ingredients- Sweet potatoes, brown sugar, corn syrup, lemon juice, vanilla extract, spices, orange extract.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: maeve
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:05 AM

I'm enjoying the meanderings of this thread.

I have recipes for Chesse Pie and English Cheese Pie. Neither contains any cheese. Both were clipped from American newspapers at least 60 years ago by an unnamed woman whose box of recipes I bought at a yard sale.

English Cheese Pie ( From Eliza Acton, an English food authority, 19th century England)

Grate the rind of one large lemon. Mix it with 1/2 cup (white) sugar. Add well-beaten yolks of 3 eggs and the well-beaten whites of 2 eggs. Beat together thoroughly. Add 4 tablespoons cream, 1/2 melted butter, and the strained juice of the lemon (this should be stirred in rather quickly). Add a touch of orange flower water or, if you find this difficult to get, a little grated orange rind. Line 8-10 small tartlet pans with flaky pastry and half fill them with the mixture. Bake for 30 minutes in a 350-degree oven.

Chesse Pie

Cream 1/2 cup butter with 1 cup light brown sugar. Beat in 2 eggs. Stir in 1/4 cup thin cream or evaporated milk, 1 cup chopped walnuts, 1 cup raisins (or raisins and currents, or dates), 1/4 teaspoon vanilla and 1/3 cup orange or grape juice or sherry. Spoon into 8-12 patty pans or a nine inch pie pan lined with your favorite pastry. Bake at 450 F 15 minutes, then reduce to 325 F for 20 minutes longer. For the tarts, bake at 450 for 5-6 minutes, then at 300 for 7-10 minutes longer, depending on the thickness of the filling. Cool on a rack and serve slightly warm.

maeve


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Azizi
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:40 AM

I'm enjoying the meanderings of this thread.
-maeve

Me too. But I have a confession to make-

I prefer coconut cake to any type of dessert pie.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:49 AM

I find it interesting that a virtual pie fight has broken out on this pie thread. A Key Lime pie fight. For the record I love Key Lime pie. The ice cream stand next door offers Key Lime ice cream which I find to be a quite refreshing treat on a hot summer day, something I am already nostalgic for as winter sets in.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: maeve
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:16 AM

The new pie recipe we tried and enjoyed this year consists of a layer of smooth, tasty pumpkin filling, covered by a layer of pecan filling. Lovely!.

By the way: I bought 1/2 cup bags of chopped pecans at a local health food store recently for $4 each (Ouch!). I bought a bag of fresh Alabama pecans in the shell at a flea market here in Maine for $3 on Saturday. Yippee! We must find a place for a couple of hardy pecan trees!

maeve


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

Whole raw pecans in the baking-spice sections of larger groceries here are about $10/kilogram (2.2 pounds).

Pecans in the shell have appeared in the groceries here in western Canada, but none of the papershells we used to get in the southern states. Are they insufficient in quantity to be shipped?


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 02:49 PM

Oh for the old days, when Florida relatives could blithely throw a fifty pound sack of pecans or tree ripened oranges into the delivery system and have them actually be allowed into the country and brought to our door!

What my grandmothers accomplished, pastry and otherwise, with those fruits (and nuts) of the South is unimaginable in these days of Keeping Our Borders Safe from Terrorist Fruits and Vegetables.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

Pecans can ship to Canada- but not oranges.
I miss the large, winy Anjou pears from Oregon that we ordered when we were in the States.

I found a couple of sellers who ship papershells to Canada. Might try for a bag.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

Those pears sound good. Another fruit we never see anymore, and I've no idea where they came from - south, I would think - were very large, very juicy and sweet clingstone peaches. They were available in season until the seventies, then gone. I'm always disappointed by peaches now, as they are either dry, tasteless, or rotten around the stone, or unpleasantly sour.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 07:51 PM

Peaches here are terrible as well. Nectarines sometimes good, and we get apricots for about 3 weeks. Never see the large, sweet Elberta peaches anymore.
The demand for fruits that ship easily and have a long shelf life has caused many of the good varieties to disappear from the market.

Another peeve- bananas! One used to be able to buy a 'hand' of 8-12 and they would keep for over a week. Now 3 days in the house is as long as we can keep them before they go brown and soft. We like to buy groceries for the full week, but can no longer do that with bananas.

Getting back to pies, we used to make good ones with peaches, but they taste flat now.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:14 AM

Do you sometimes wonder why one never sees the huge stalks of bananas that used to appear in stores, where you or the store employee would cut of what you wanted?

I used to think it was pure merchandising that caused the change to individual hands of bananas being shipped, only. Not so.

Those bananas, back in days of yore, were a different breed or strain. I don't recall the name of that strain, but what we get today are called Cavendish. There was a blight that attacked what I'll call "the stalk bananas", and either wiped them out or made major quality problems, so the Cavendish was developed or discovered. But the Cavendish is too tender, and can't stand the handling of the whole stalks in shipping, so it HAS to be shipped in individual hands.

That's okay, I suppose, but here's the bad news: There's another banana blight going around, which attacks the Cavendish strain. The banana industry is doing what it can to limit the blight's spread, but it looks like the Cavendish strain may be wiped out worldwide in not too many years.

Now here's the real bummer: Bananas are not grown from seed, but from cuttings, and it's difficult to develop a new (hopefully blight-resistant) strain. We may see a time when sweet dessert bananas, as opposed to the not-too-sweet cooking bananas called plaintains, will be unavailable.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

"bananas called plantains", even.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Bee
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:48 AM

Uncle DaveO, there are many other kinds of bananas, some of them sweet, with varying textures. The yellow mini-bananas we get in ordinary grocery stores are not Cavendish, for example, and have a quite different texture than the usual yellow eating banana. Red bananas are sometimes available, and they too are different. Yes, we will likely never see the Cavendish again after a few years, and it will be hard on banana growers, having to switch to different breeds. The moral of the story, which no one appears to have learned the first time round, is don't raise cloned mono-crops.


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Subject: RE: BS: American Pies-Questions & Answers.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 03:37 PM

The mini-yellows are my favorite. We went bananas over them when we went to Hawai'i. Only rarely do they show up here in western Canada. They kept well, too. Before we got into our hotel in Hawai'i, we would stop at a grocery and buy a hand, a round loaf of Hawaiian brown sweet bread, small papayas, and dark honey. That, plus milk we kept in the mini-fridge, was our morning breakfast. The little ("lady") bananas would keep for a week.
I think that they are available in the Caribbean, but don't know for certain.


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