EFDSS New Chief Exec.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:14 PM

Might be fun though...

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:00 PM

Richard: I was meaning in the Trojan sense, not the Stalag-Luft bit. Hiding under an administrator's skirts while digging a tunnel to escape from a ceildh band seems an unlikely activity.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:29 PM

I lkie those last thoughts Greg.

Not sure if you mean "Trojan Horse" rather than "Wooden Horse" - the first got into Troy and the latter out of Germany.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: BB
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Been away from Mudcat for a few days, so I was amazed at how much interest this thread has generated. I understand Derek's concern about people's apparent criticism of Katy's appointment, and I agree that she should be given a good chance to prove that the appointment was the right one, but I do see it as positive that so many people care about EFDSS and its future.

And if any of you aren't members, then get in there and be so, 'cos even if it's difficult to change things from the inside, you sure as hell can't do it from the outside! And it seems to me that people like John Adams and Derek Schofield are proving just how much things can be changed. Many of us don't have the time, or maybe even the inclination, to do much, but our membership fees at least support those who do.

Barbara

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:51 AM

I am delighted to report that Ruth and I are back singing from the same hymn sheet(well, one or two minor typos aside). Which is not to say that I regard the chasing of funding as an invariable panacea. Supping with the devil, as everyone knows, requires a very long spoon. Which, as has often been observed, is why arts organisations took to employing administrators. The perennial discussion, which every group needs to have all the time, is "admin: long spoon or wooden horse?" You can't live without administration making funding applications(or at least the EFDSS couldn't, right now).But you always need to think very carefully what you want to do and what you want to get to help you do it. As they say, more heartache is caused by prayers answered than by prayers refused.
    I have made a considerable study of this, having been involved with an inordinate number of companies, many connected with folk music, and some not.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:33 AM

I have my moments, Matt!

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:13 AM

Good man Nige.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:36 PM

Without wishing to be an arse, I do think Greg and Ruth are singing from approximately the same hymn sheet, just approching it from slightly different angles...

cheers

nigel

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:54 PM

not intended at all.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:40 PM

People have indeed been critical(well one person has) of the EFDSS's decision, but not me. Since I have worked closely with the EFDSS in the past, and hope to continue to do so, I would hate anybody to get the impression I was one of its attackers. I accept your statement that your comments were intended to be directed elsewhere, and that is fine, no hard feelings. But I hope in return you might accept that several of your posts appeared to be directed at me, or could be interpreted in that way. It could be extremely damaging to me personally and professionally if a feeling went about that I was an anti-C Sharp House person.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 02:39 PM

Greg, I repeat, I won't be drawn. If you choose to misinterpret my words that's up to you. When I replied to you, I was also referring to various other opinions expressed in this thread. I repeat: I don't know your work - you also don't know mine. But I have been engaging on this thread in an intense discussion (and defense) not only of EFDSS's progressive practice, and its new (not even in post) Chief Exec, but also of the sudbsidised arts generally, all of which I believe in passionately.

Yes, I responded specifically to some of your points, Greg - but that doesn't mean I was having a go at you personally when I was talking about the differences between a subsidised and non-subsidised approach. If you continue to choose to take it as a personal attack, however, there is nothing else I can do.

As you're familiar with Derek Schofield, I'll just repeat his words:

"I cannot remember a thread on mudcat that commented in so much detail, or so critically, on other appointments by folk music and dance organisations, or on the many, many successful funding projects in folk music. Many festivals get funding, Folk Arts England, Folkworks at the Sage, Folk South West..... Why doesn't someone start a thread about these, and then see if you get as good a response from representatives of those organisations....."

Now I really am done. I have much more important things to be doing.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:52 PM

I am a great supporter of the EFDSS. The promulgation of the contents of its Ann Gilchrist collection to the wider world has been my continuous work since the 70's, I think with quite a bit of success throughout the northwest and beyond.. Why this GUEST:Ruth is having such a go at me I haven't a clue. She is an EFDSS person is she?
I'm familiar with Johnny Adams and Derek Schofield on this thread as people asociated with C Sharp House, I don't really know Ruth other than as a contributor here. Anyway, I stand by what I say. I speak from personal experience over a long time and (on this thread at least) I am trying to stick by that. I mean, if someone sounds off about funding or innovation or whatever, I am trying to keep to what happens in the areas I know about. The EFDSS is currently in a position where it can vastly improve its own position due to a variety of circumstances. "There is a tide in the affairs of men etc etc": well, the tide is there to be caught right now if we all play our cards right. Abuse is not going to get us anywhere.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

Speaking for myself I have criticisms of the society - and I know Johnny Adams has - we talked about them on the radio last week so they have hardly been kept secret!! But both of us became members and Johnny in particular has worked extremely hard - unpaid - to improve things. So does Ruth.

Unjustified criticism - and criticism based on misconceptions - is bound to attract adverse comment.

PS You missed out Malcolm Douglas. I suspect he'll be upset!!

Off to Bramall Lane on a cold wet night.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:29 PM

well the problem here, as I see it,Is that Ruth Archer,is being over defensive about any criticism.
In the past when I have had the temerity,to try and make concstructive criticism of the EFDSS,I have had a packof hounds [consisting of Ruth,FolkieDave,JohnAdams]baying for my blood.
they need to chillout.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:01 PM

Deep breaths please.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:54 PM

GUEST Ruth:
Please don't be silly.
I quote you verbatim:

"This is why I suggested that these may (note: MAY) be the hallmarks of the projects you've alluded to".

That is not addressed to a hypothetical "you" as in "one". That is directed to a quite specific person, and that specific person can only be me in the context ofyour post.I repeat, I do not hold the views you are having a go at me for. I support the EFDSS, I support funding, and I support innovation. Which(to quote you again) bit don't you understand?
    This is a serious and interesting discussion about the future of the EFDSS, now looking rosier than it has for a generation or two, to my way of thinking. Which is brilliant. What on earth are you on about?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:31 PM

"Greg, I know absolutely nothing about you or your work. I've been engaging in a purely theoretical conversation about one approach vs another."


"I was replying more generally to sentiments of suspicion about funding that have appeared on this thread, not talking about you personally."

Which bit was hard to understand? I won't be drawn on this, I'm afraid. If you're looking for a fight, look elsewhere.

---

Ruth, Please note that anonymous posting is no longer allowed at Mudcat. Use a consistent name [in the 'from' box] when you post, or your messages risk being deleted. You can be logged in on both your home and work computers (if your employer permits cookies) - or you can post at "Guest" with your usual name.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:07 PM

Well, if I'm not the "you" you are talking to, who is? The post of yours that I was referring to was addressed to someone, and it appeared to be me.Maybe it was to Richard Bridge? I thought there was an element of confusion. Posibly nobody was arguing with anyone?
   All I am pointing out is, you are attacking somebody who doesnt wish to innovate, or accept funds. Those are not views I hold.Addres you remarks to someone else. Or if nobody on this thread holds these views you are attacking, perhaps you shouldn't make the remarks?It's one or the other. Just who are you disagreeing with?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:25 AM

Greg, I know absolutely nothing about you or your work. I've been engaging in a purely theoretical conversation about one approach vs another. Perhaps I should have said "if one is happy with what one does..." instead of "if you are happy with wehat you do..." - but then I probably would have been accused again of being a poncey arts manager. But I was replying more generally to sentiments of suspicion about funding that have appeared on this thread, not talking about you personally. Blimey.

I give up. I retire from this conversation.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

Ruth Archer: you seem to make an incredible range of assumptions.Go ahead if you wish, but if they are about me, expect to be challenged. Now, the clear implications of your remarks directed at me are that I am opposed to funding, that I do not engage in funded work, that I am happy in doing things the old way, that others choose to be funded and innovative, and that funding is only granted for innovative work. Now, everyone of those statements is demonstrably rubbish.For example, I worked for the celebratory/site specific(whatever you care to call it) theatre company Welfare State International, regularly, from its first show in 1968 to its last in 2006(it closed itself down with the retirement of director John Fox). Now, many accusations could be levelled at WSI(hippy, load of rubbish, child of three could do that), but I don't think anybody has ever accused us of not being innovative. Try reading "Engineers of the Imagination", or any other stuff about the company. And all of the work(virtually) was funded in some way.So, (1) I like innovating and (2) I love being funded. And I have worked for at least ten other (funded) wierdo theatre companies.
   I am always after funded work, I'd likely starve if I didn't find it. I work a lot by gigging, and have often lived on busking when times were hard, but by and large I work in areas where things are financed by funding...theatre, education etc etc. Nothing against it at all. So please don't suggest I don't do funded work, or disapprove of it. I say there are dangers in funding, certainly. Do you think it is possible to work profesionally as an artist for 45 years without noticing a few things that go wrong from time to time?
    As to my not being innovative, and just happy to do things the old way. Well, I do have an indecent love for "the old way", which is why I love folk music. But as a person who is notorious for never going to folk clubs, but persisting in working with African percussionists, asylum seekers, radical theatre companies, gypsies and now(horror of horrors) young urban rappers etc etc, I don't think I am quite such a stick-in-the-mud as you paint me. I know everybody works with African and Asian music and mutli-this and multi-that now, but believe me there weren't all that many of us around in the 70's. I think I preserve quite a nice balance of old and new, and unfunded and funded.
    And your crucial point, that funding is only for innovative work. Ha ha ha ha!You've got to be joking.But wouldn't it be great if it was true?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:33 AM

Yes - I said give her a chance - that's "wait and see". It's what I've said all along.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Ruth at Work
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:12 AM

Greg, I'm sorry if you feel I've been intemperate. I have tried to keep my responses relevant to the myriad (and, I feel, unfair)accusations thrown at someone who does not even take up her post for another two months. I certainly think that my responses have been more "helpful" than the tedious and ill-informed mud-slinging that's occurred here.

You say that "Ruth Archer makes an assumption that funded projects are, of themselves, more innovative than un-funded ones..."

No, I don't. But I was responding to your assertion:

"have a little listen to some recent folk projects that have attracted cultural funding to enable them to be created. Then have a listen to some stuff that didn't. And see if you can see a pattern emerging.There's a difference in style, isn't there? Whether it is to yopur taste or not, you can't deny a difference."

I was simply suggesting what some of those differences might be. Why did I make the suggestions I did? Because funding does not simply subsidise what you already do. To achieve funding you have to demonstrate that you are being innovative, engaging in new collaborations, developing your work. This is why I suggested that these may (note: MAY) be the hallmarks of the projects you've alluded to. Naturally they won't sound like the non-funded work. That's the whole point: they're MEANT to be different, to encourage artists to challenge themselves.

If you are happy with what you do, and want to keep doing it for an audience that enjoys it, great. Go for it. The bit I don't understand is when people who have chosen that path then get chippy about the people who choose to do things differently. What are you so threatened by? No one's going to stop you making your music in the way that you want to. What artists in receipt of subsidy do with their work does not de-value yours, and at the end of the day, if it doesn't float your boat, you don't have to listen to it. And if it's crap 9and plenty of subsidised projects have been crap) it won't sell.

Now, let's make a distinction between what you do as an individual artist, and what an organisation like EFDSS does. As an artist, you don't need to apply for subsidy to do what you do. But an organisation like EFDSS, if it is going to work effectively at a strategic national level, probably needs (and deserves) funding. In the application process, some things will be as true of EFDSS as they are of individual artists: the organisation still needs to do new things, be innovative, seek out collaborations and partnerships. However, this does NOT have to meant that the fundamental product (English music, dance and song) needs to change. It can simply mean that we work with new audiences, or work in new places, or come up with innovative new ways to bring our work into the community (like the Take 6 Project, which not only conserves important collections, but also takes some of them back into the communities where they were first collected).

A good arts manager (and I have no doubt that Katy is one of these) will understand the need to demonstrate innovation while protecting the integrity of the artform. I think this is the main concern that a lot of people have been expressing, and to be fair, for some it will be borne of previous experience. What I'm trying to say is that funding is NOT intrinsically a dirty word, and that the professsionalisation of the arts (including folk) is not a threat to its integrity. An experienced arts manager, aware of the potential pitfalls, is actually MORE likely to maintain that integrity.


PS: I'd like evidence for the Juan Kerr story - sounds apocryphal to me.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:38 AM

Greg,

You're right when you say that funding can become an end in itself and needs to be carefully targeted. Although the society has had problems attracting funding in the past I think that the 2007 track record shows that the current bids are so targeted.

I've seen lots of Mudcat comments about the society raising funding for library projects and this year, from Ruth Archer's list...

£154,500 Heritage Lottery Fund grant for the Take 6 Project, conserving 6 collections from the VWML and taking some of them into the communities where they were first collected

London Links project launched to expand the use of VWML by community groups and individuals, particularly in 3 London boroughs. Part-funded by a £3k grant from the Mercer's Company

Grant funding achieved for the appointment of a new Education Director

That's good funding.

I see no reason why this situation shouldn't continue under a new CEO.

J

PS. I'm less excited about the funding raised to install a "music garden" at C#H because that doesn't advance the cause of folk music much but that was just a media exercise and hey, everybody needs a hobby! :-)

PPS.

"Juan Kerr" LOL

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:30 AM

Greg generally speaking I have no problems with people who have different views. There are some notable exceptions but generally speaking that is true.

I do have a problem with people who write things based on no or very little tangible evidence for what they are saying. If Richard says "....She may be very useful, but users of management speak tend to come to believe in it"..... I think I am justified in asking how he knows she talks that particular way.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:43 AM

Interesting thread, which I haven't kept up with having been away. Some very silly things have been said which can't help a situation where the appropriate position should surely be to express support and good wishes. Richard Bridge is right to be cautious about funding if that is his postion, but he doesn't need to be so angry about it. And Ruth Archer's intemperance is surely not helpful. It should, I would hope, be possible to be able to express a degree of caution about what fund-chasing can do to you, I would have thought, without being attacked by Ms Archer for being opposed to innovation (now where did that come from? People carry some very strange baggage).
    Ruth Archer makes an assumption that funded projects are, of themselves, more innovative than un-funded ones. That seems to me a ridiculous assertion, and shows the dangers that some of us are aware of; if you really believe that funding will automatically bring the great gift of creativity, you are wearing blinkers that can confuse you utterly.I doubt if she really believes any such thing actaully, she just got a bit over-argumentative.
   Now, I wrote on this thread a while ago of the caution to be needed when fund-raising, and that was before the current Labour party fiasco. Richard Bridge makes an obvious comparison with that, and we must surely have all noticed the connection. However necessary we all know fund-raising to be, it does no harm to be reminded by that cautionary tale. In the Labour Party case, the fund-raisers became so obsessed by the need to raise money that they totally forgot why they were supposed to be raising it, and also totally forgot the laws they were meant to follow while doing so. And, naturally, ended up damaging the cause they were supposedly trying to help. A very salutary lesson. I have worked in the subsidised and the unsubsidised sectors of the arts worlds for 45 years, so I am well aware of the problems of being on either side of the fence. Plus, of course, a lot of work straddles the fence uncomfortably.
    SO, please, a bit of goodwill for the new appointment, and a bit of goodwill to those who wish to discuss it but may have different views to our own. It's our EFDSS you know(well, it is to those of us interested in folk music, whether English or not).
    A final thought: to those who think funding, and its pursuit, is the panacea for all ills. Someone a while back managed to make a successful application to the Arts Council for a toally ludicrous project, and submitted it under the name of "Juan Kerr". The fact that that application for a grant was successful shows just what condition funding bodies can get themselves into. The Great Game of fund allocating can totally screw up the minds of those dishing out the dosh just as surely as it affects those chasing it. We all need, for sanity, to stand backa little now and again and examine what is going on.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:04 AM

Richard - please give the woman a chance. How on earth do you know how she talks? How many times have you met her and talked to her?

I really think we should be told the evidence on which you base such a statement.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:44 AM

Just an expression Richard

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:44 AM

Yes Captain, it was indeed. That's what I said when I'd hit the submit button and I saw the numbers had jumped two not one.

Well, Matt, why say "What is all that", then?

The point remains the same. She may be very useful, but users of managementspeak tend to come to believe in it. We shall see.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:54 AM

I understand it Richard... I just think its shxite.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:49 AM

Richard Bridge,itwas my 100.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:48 AM

Damn - too slow.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:48 AM

oh yes and 100.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

100

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Captain Birdseye - PM
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM

I would like to make it clear,that any new director should not be prejudged on his/ her cv,they should be judged on that which they achieve over the next couple of years.
I do not wish to be associated with any of the criticism of Ms Spicers appointment.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

Hells Bells, look at where overenthusiastic fundraising has got New Labour...

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:46 AM

mattkeen, if you really don't understand, then maybe you ought not to have a view.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:03 AM

Well said Derek.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:02 AM

What is all that shxte about chickens?????????????????

Please go out a bit more

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 08:00 AM

Guest Derek Scofield
Summed up my feelings.
Some of you lot live under stones.

Thanks are due to a lot of others though for there common sense and commitment including Ruth, Greg, diane etc etc.

The new chied exec looks highly qualified
SHE IS A PROFESSIONAL ARTS MANAGER

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:50 AM

I read some of these comments on this topic with great irritation.
The one good thing one can say is that the issue of the appointment of a chief executive, the issue of fund-raising, accountability and the criteria of funders are all out in the open and being discussed in this EFDSS context.
I cannot remember a thread on mudcat that commented in some much detail, or so critically, on other appointments by folk music and dance organisations, or on the many, many successful funding projects in folk music. Many festivals get funding, Folk Arts England, Folkworks at the Sage, Folk South West..... Why doesn't someone start a thread about these, and then see if you get as good a response from representatives of those organisations.....
Derek Schofield

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Richard on another terminal
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 06:31 AM

Well, yes Ruth, that's why I said that we need to watch vigilantly and see what happens. I am not condemning, merely wondering if there might be a risk of putting the fox in charge of the hencoop. But you reassure me that the wise farmers are monitoring the activities of the unknown animal. If she turns out to be a metaphorical rooster and fertilises the hens, fine. But if she is a fox the hens may be lost. And if she is a bantam the next generation of chickens may be smaller.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:33 AM

Senior moment.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:55 AM

it was at Cheltenham Folk Festival and constituted part of the EFDSS 75th anniversary events.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:09 AM

I don't remember this songwriting competition - clearly I have missed something.

When was it and who came second?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:06 AM

"The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end.

The means must not become the end."

Your point is a valid one, Richard, but just because someone is very good at achieving funding, why the assumption that they are led by it?

When I used to teach fundraising to my students, two of the things I tried to emphasise dealt precisely with this issue. Firstly, funders will have stated objectives and criteria, and you will only achieve the funding if you are meeting those objectives - you have to satisfy THEIR needs. On the other hand, you have specific reasons for wanting to do the project, and you cannot let those be altered out of all recognition to meet a funder's criteria. Before you start, know which bits you are willing to compromise on - and which bits you aren't. If a funder wants you to change those core beliefs and values, then they're probably not right for you. Go and look for another funder. To do otherwise is to let the tail wag the dog, and can ultimately be very damaging.

Remember that Katy, when she arrives, will not be working in isolation - she'll be working closely with the National Council. It's part of our job, as trustees of the society, to make sure that those core objectives of EFDSS remain the top priority.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 03:05 AM

I still have trouble with the FOLK Dance and Song Society prioritising songwriting over FOLK song. No doubt some new acoustic music is musically worthwhile, but is that under threat, is that in need of preservation, and how does that link us to our roots?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,a southampton folkie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Bit of thread creep here, but what the heck...speaking of the EFDSS, their inaugural songwriting competition earlier this year was won by Gene Burton...I've said it before and I daresay I'll say it again: check his music out! Bloody brilliant IMHO; and you can sample it for free: www.myspace.com/geneburtonmusic

(haven't even attempted a blue clickie this time 'cos they never seem to work for me)

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:35 PM

"even organisations such as the EFDSS and what have you will come and go"

says Moley. True - but this particular organisation has managed to last since 1898 in one form or another - and is still looking for new and innovative ways to keep the traditions it serves alive.

How cool is that?

Nigel Spencer (more lke Badger if I'm to be honest)

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Tootler
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:11 PM

Moley said it was teh musicians and audiences that mattered. They are merely vehicles. What matters is the artform itself - the English Folk Dance and Song.

Without the musicians - and the dancers, the artform would not exist, so they are more than vehicles they are what keeps the artform alive.

The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end. The means must not become the end.

Agreed with this one.

What a lot of griping about someone who has not yet taken up her post!! Surely to goodness you can give her the benefit of the doubt.

She seems to have the right sort of qualifications for the job and the kind of track record needed - and as for her background in dance, it seems that most of you have forgotten that this is the English Folk Song and Dance Society that is being discussed, so her background in dance seems highly relevant to me.

But then I am just a mere amateur who simply enjoys singing and playing folk music for a hobby and occasionally stands up and clumps around at a Ceilidh.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:54 PM

Moley said it was teh musicians and audiences that mattered. They are merely vehicles. What matters is the artform itself - the English Folk Dance and Song. The funding is not the purpose, it is merely a means to an end.

The means must not become the end.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:42 PM

Every rock tour of any size is sponsored.

And of course the support band often pays to go on it.

And the lighting man often gets paid more than the musicians.

Come on Molecatcher's Apprentice. You are posting constantly now - why not register and put your real name on a letter to Mudcat.

Sign A Missive.

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: oggie
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

Look at any festival, there will be a list of sponsers. Look at BramptonLive, petition to council to keep it's funding. Yes, if your idea of folk music is three men in a pub it don't need owt else (unless the pub is owned by Smirhs, in which case tough luck).

Every rock tour of any size is sponsored.

There is money around IF you can play the "game" and knowing how to do that is crucial. Andy Dixon kept Remould Theatre (creators of "The Northern Trawl") going for years because he knew what to do. There is money to keep the VWML growing, to develop C# House, to do other work. If you think that folk music is "of the people etc" then it may seem irrelevant and the same group of you can sing "Pleasant and Delightful" ad infinitum in the pub of your choice until it all withers and dies.

If you think the EFDSS is irrelevant then the appointment of a top flight arts administrator is bad news because she'll make things happen and the Society a player again.

BTW - Molecatchers Apprentice, If you believe in what you say you could at least have the guts to put your name to your posts.

Steve Ogden

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:11 PM

no personal attacks...I just think we ought to be honest if we're going to have a discussion. Why not actually outline what your "problem" with EFDSS is? Then maybe your criticisms could be responded to.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

Life is way too short to get into personal attacks, I'm not going to play your game and I'm also not going to reiterate what I've already said...and my problem is with the EFDSS..the individuals don't interest me as such.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:53 PM

Oh, I think I know exactly who you are...and like your "girlfriend", you can't resist constantly making up new identities, which I think is a particularly cowardly way of having a pop at things, or people. Looking through your posts on other threads under this particular name, it's quite clear who you are - and we both know your gripe is not with EFDSS, but rather with some of its supporters who post on this thread.

Of course the music and the audiences are of primary importance. But how do the audiences actually find out about the music? How do the CDs get made, the concerts and festivals get organised? Who does the work that opens up the music to even more audiences?

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:41 PM

Let me put it simply...it's the musicians and the audiences that matter.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Adam Lesson
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

Musicians and audiences come and go as well!

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:29 PM

Arts "Managers", CEOs, fundraisers, and even organisations such as the EFDSS and what have you will come and go, but at the end of day when all is said and done, the musicians and the audiences are the ones that matter, because without them there is nothing else.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:26 PM

Dunno about Canada, never been there...I think you have me mistaken for someone else...someone who perhaps feels the same way I do...ie the relevance of the EFDSS....Hmm maybe a run through the threads will provide an answer for me. Doesn't it occur to you that there might be more than one person who feels the same way...seems the answer is no as far as I can see...

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:20 PM

"I like this thread drift...it's far more interesting..."

If you're not interested in the thread, why bother reading or contributing?

Mind you, I expect EFDSS doesn't have much relevance in Canada.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:12 PM

I like this thread drift...it's far more interesting...Fergy can sing????? :-P A new thread topic, mayhap? :-D

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 04:07 PM

Its not over till the fat lady[Fergy ]sings.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 03:55 PM

Sorry for starting the thread drift.

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:06 PM

Yup...seems the "mighty Man U". are slip slidin' away...to coin a phrase....

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

I enjoy watching Arsenal play because they are a delight to watch,they know How to pass the ball, score goals,Win and provide excellent entertainment.I also had a fivepound bet on them to win the premiership at 5 to 1.http://www.dickmiles.com

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

Started supporting them at 16 years of age.

We have had our highs and lows:-)

I have talked to others about this - where is the fun in supporting (for example) Arsenal.

Q: "How've you got on today?"

A: "Won".

No pleasure at all.

Dave

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: the button
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Being associated with Sheffield United won't let you win much at all, to be honest.

(Sorry, couldn't resist).

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:21 PM

I would think she is in there for two reasons: fundraising and project management.

She has an excellent track record in both as far as I can see.

Far to often a person or persons become corrupted by the very organisation they're attempting to change, either that or they become marginalised, thus ineffectual, for "not going along with everyone else".

But at least they have tried. I am interested to know how you would propose to change an organisation without belonging.

For example I have shares in Sheffield United - it won't help me to win a lot of resloutions at the AGM - indeed I think the Chairman is doing a wonderful job anyway, not so sure about the manager - but I can get my viewpoint across at least once a year.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Surreysinger
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:55 PM

Poor old Katy - she hasn't even started the job yet, and look at the furore...people talking about "watching" her as if she's a goldfish in a bowl and some sort of global threat , people carping on about her qualifications and track record (which, as far as I can see, looks reasonably varied from my experience of working in an arts environment as I have been for the last 9 years, albeit on a very part time basis as both volunteer and paid member of staff, ... OK there's more dance than other arts, but that may just be her personal preference.... and I can't believe that I am now discussing her as well!! What counts is the ability to manage in this new situation, and to cope with funding ,budgeting and publicity.

If I was her, I think I'd be wanting to turn tail and ditch the job before I got going in view of all the carping from people who have never met her, never had to deal with her, and have little idea of what makes her tick as a person and as an organiser. Give her a break, and let her start her job, find her feet and get going for a reasonable length of time .... and then, and ONLY then can you start discussing whether she is able to do the job she has been selected for.

I wish her all the best.

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:29 AM

I often worry about that infamous phrase "working within an organisation (insert appropriate name)to bring change about" Far to often a person or persons become corrupted by the very organisation they're attempting to change, either that or they become marginalised, thus ineffectual, for "not going along with everyone else".

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:31 AM

.........you should I hope expect your chief exec to be wholly committed to the objectives of the charity and the best standards of mental health care, rather than prepared to compromise those things for greater profit or funding

Richard there is absolutely no evidence to suggest the new CEO who does not even start work for another two months is not committed, nor is there any evidence of compromise by her on behalf of the EFDSS.

Nor is there any evidence she will NOT be devoted to the objectives of the EFDSS that I am aware of. And if you are in a member of the society you are in a position to make changes. If you are not then it is nothing to do with you.

As far "watching her" I watch ANY CEO of ANY organisation I belong to - that's why I left the Labour Party!!

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:24 PM

But, Nigel, you should I hope expect your chief exec to be wholly committed to the objectives of the charity and the best standards of mental health care, rather than prepared to compromise those things for greater profit or funding.

There is nothing yet to indicate that Katy Spicer has any knowledge of or devotion to the objectives (and the constitutional objectives in point are curious as previously stated on this forum, IMHO) of the EFDSS. That is I suggest why one should wait watchfully.

Subject: GO KATY!
From: Giant Folk Eyeball (inactive)
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:57 PM

I work for a mental health charity. We expect the staff to be shit hot mental health practitioners. We expect our Chief Executive to be shit hot at networking and publicity and fundraising and strategic planning and all that kind of stuff. Whether she sould cut it as a mental health practitioner is neither here nor there. That's not what she's in post for.

I'd imagine the situation with Katy Spicer parallels this. I just hope she is able to continue to guide the EFDSS down the path it is already going down. I wish her best of luck in her new job.

As for those who think the social inclusion agenda somehow dilutes English folk music - get over youselves. Getting the broadest possible cross section of people involved or at least aware of traditional English music isn't exactly a criminal offence! And we don't live in some 1950's viilage green version of the UK, fer christ's sake!

Cheers

Nigel (Membership No 44313A4)

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:37 AM

Yeah, I know. Derek Schofield compiled this list as a handout for the EFDSS stall at the Association of Festival Organisers conference, and it does make a really good answer to the question, "But what does EFDSS actually DO?"

The initiatives which made all of this happen largely pre-date my involvement, but it still makes me really proud to be involved. There's only more good stuff to come.

And maybe, when you look at some of the big grants and projects, it begins to demonstrate why having an experienced arts mananger leading the society is such an important step right now.

And not to bang on too much, but the best way for people to support this work is to get involved, either by simply joining EFDSS or by taking a more active role - either would be welcomed.

*gets down off soap box*

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:24 PM

Hmm! When you're close to the stuff it's easy to lose sight of the whole thing. I've been pretty busy with my bits, but when you look at the whole list in one lump.......

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:18 PM

I'm interested to know as well, Johnny - genuinely. But for the record, here are some of the forward steps of the past 12 months:

£154,500 Heritage Lottery Fund grant for the Take 6 Project, conserving 6 collections from the VWML and taking some of them into the communities where they were first collected

Hardcore English tunebook and double CD published in June 2007. "A sort of English O'Neill's. An essential publication." - Paul Burgess, Living Tradition

Marrow Bones: English folk songs from the Hammond and Gardener manuscripts, published in July 2007. "A most welcome reprint." - Martin Carthy

EDS magazine goes full colour

London Links project launched to expand the use of VWML by community groups and individuals, particularly in 3 London boroughs. Part-funded by a £3k grant from the Mercer's Company

Running Joak, the Gloworms debut CD, produced May 2007

EFDSS 75th anniversary events held throughout the year

EFDSS-sponsored film screenings, talks and workshops at festivals including Sidmouth and Whitby

Traveller's Joy: songs of English and Scottish Trevellers and Gypsies, songbook and CD published January 2007. "The most important book of traditional songs to be published so far this century." - Vic Smith, fRoots

Treble DVD of Sam Sherry, including archival film, photos and biography, published November 2007

The Folk Handbook, published in collaboration with Backbeat Books, 2007

Grant funding achieved for the appointment of a new Education Director

Appointment of Katy Spicer, new Chief Executive, from early 2008

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:04 PM

Name your steps.....

Dave

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:23 PM

This SHOULD prove interesting.....

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

Interesting. What would you consider to be the backward steps?

J

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

"EFDSS is improving although it does seem to be a case of three steps forward and two backwards."

would you care to elucidate?

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:03 PM

EFDSS is improving although it does seem to be a case of three steps forward and two backwards.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:21 PM

Well said Dick!!

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:52 PM

I would like to make it clear,that any new director should not be prejudged on his/ her cv,they should be judged on that which they achieve over the next couple of years.
I do not wish to be associated with any of the criticism of Ms Spicers appointment.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: the button
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:22 PM

Just PM'ed you, John.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 03:07 PM

the button:

Exciting times for the EFDSS, I reckon. If anything, I'm tempted to contribute a bit more, rather than my current status as a subs-paying member.,/i>

After 7 years of contributing to the governance side of EFDSS I'm really happy that things are slowly turning the corner. There are a number of people on Mudcat who are contributing to EFDSS in in various practical ways and if you want to join them you will be welcomed warmly.

Personally, having achieved a number of things in those seven years, I'm ready to back of a little and get back to my research and other projects, much of which will benefit the society anyway.

If you're serious, PM me and have a chat about it.

J

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:57 PM

Ummmm...never mind....*LOL*

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: the button
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

As I've said, I think this is a good appointment -- a good, imaginative appointment, in fact. I'm not too bothered about what exactly she was doing in her previous role, but it's clear that she's used to, and good at, promoting minority art forms to a wider audience. And that can only be a good thing.

Also, I wasn't (quite) taking the piss when I said that she's got experience in folk arts, meaning her involvement in promoting urban dance.

Anyone (at this stage at least) saying that she's going to be biased towards dance because of her previous experience is being a touch paranoid, in my opinion. I have no cause to doubt her professionalism in meeting her full brief, so am prepared to give her a chance.

Exciting times for the EFDSS, I reckon. If anything, I'm tempted to contribute a bit more, rather than my current status as a subs-paying member.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:32 PM

Why would Ashley Hutchings apply for an accountant/fundraiser/administrator job?
That's not what he does.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:21 PM

Was Ashley Hutchings in line for the job.....? Couldn't see him accepting the position though, and wisely too.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole catchers Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:16 PM

Oh but I do, Guest...I do....and have done...actually I live in the city...not the country, but that's by the way...no sense of humour apparently... I wish Katy Spicer all the best in what seems to me to be a somewhat thankless task.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:11 PM

Ah, yes. I see who the Moleperson is now.
How slow of me.
Though I didn't see him/her/it outside C# today, as another post led me to believe.
If he/she/it had been, the opportunity could have been taken to note that the former staff living quarters @ C# are in the basement, not the attic.
As a welcome to Katy Spicer, I suggest the theme tune on her entrance should be something other than Let The Goode Times Roll.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:53 PM

Wow I'm glad I didn't apply.................I thought about it! But in hindsight I wouldn't have fancied the public proctoscope !!

Frank

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

Moleskin, how's Life in the Country these days?

Surely your Hons qualification ought to be in the study of the recording career of Ashley Hutchings - very useful. When you actually have something to contribute (here, or anywhere) do let us know. But in the meantime, don't be snide about other people's qualifications. People who do that sort of thing are usually just chippy because they haven't had the decdication and commitment to achieve anything themselves.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: johnadams
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:16 PM

"a post-graduate certificate in Script Editing from Liverpool, John Moores University"

this degree ought to prove very useful......

The Mole Catcher's Apprentice

Assuming you're being ironic, there's nothing wrong with that. Lots of people have qualifications that don't quite match where they've ended up. I don't consider my aero engineering qualifications wasted even though I teach audio.

I'm impressed with Katy's track record and if she can handle the management of some of the capital projects at EFDSS then we'll all be better off as a result. Her track record seems to suggest that she can. Things like the quarter million pounds raised for the Gateway Theatre for instance. (... and she didn't have to be an actor to bring that one off!).

J

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:56 PM

while,I wish her every success,I will be continuing my membership of Comhaltas.
They are[as far as Iknow] the only organisation in many parts of England who give lessons in traditional music.
as far as I know EFDSS do not do this,which I think is a pity.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:34 PM

"a post-graduate certificate in Script Editing from Liverpool, John Moores University"

this degree ought to prove very useful......

The Mole Catcher's Apprentice

(The English Fancy Dress and Fan Dancing Society {Hons])

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Doktor Doktor
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:38 AM

Cue for a song about how good the old administrators were ... any volunteers ... ???

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:54 AM

Just so. We all need to put our money (and our time) where our mouths are.

The thread title, since Don mentions it, was mis-typed. It would be a kindness if a nice 'clone' would correct it.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:39 AM

She might go native!

I think it is a good idea to wait and see what she does when she gets there.

Although plenty of people haven't noticed the EFDSS is changing - for the better IMHO - plenty of others have noticed. I am hoping she will be able to effect that change even more. It would be easy to effect a drastic change given unlimited amounts of funding - but that doesn't exist so it needs to be done slowly whether we like it or not. The CV certainly makes it look as if she knows what she is doing in the field of Arts Management.

She will get frustrated with the EFDSS at times - haven't we all - but the best way for you personally to effect any change is to support her, become a member, and make your voice heard.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,DonD
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:32 PM

The press release in the original post reveals to us colonials that EFDSS is the English Folk Dance and Song Society --- but what the hell is the FDDSS? FD? Hmm -- FD? Fancy Dress? Folk Dance (Dummy)& Song Society? Fundraising and Donation-seeking Dance & Song Society???

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:52 PM

"The track record certainly looks worrying..."

LOL!!!!!

Yes, would've been much better if she'd spent the last 20 years as squire of her local morris side, or running a folk club. That would have prepared her for the role of Chief Exec of EFDSS FAR better than - oh - all that pesky arts management experience.

God, if you didn't laugh you'd cry...

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:45 PM

The track record certainly looks worrying - Chief exec of FFAFS (F**K Folk and F*K Song) looks like the style - but let us wait and see. She might go native!

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Yet another guest
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:29 PM

A lazy bit of googling - taken from http://www.arcdance.com/index2.html
        
"Katy Spicer Biography
        

Katy Spicer is the Executive Director and Co-Chief Executive with Kim Brandstrup and joined Arc in August 2000. She is responsible for selling the company's performances to theatres and festivals in both the UK and overseas, financial management and fundraising, human resource development and general company management.

Katy has been working in arts management since graduating from London University in 1983 with a degree in English Literature and History. She has worked in a variety of areas including marketing, finance, fund-raising, tour management, training and general company management, and with numerous arts organisations. Posts include Training Officer at the Arts Council of England, General Manager of Green Candle Dance Company and Administrative Director / Co-Chief Executive of Chester Gateway Theatre. In a freelance capacity she has worked with Manchester International Theatre Consortium, Northern Soul, English Touring Theatre, Bolton Octagon Theatre, Cheshire Dance, London Contemporary Dance School, Warm Gun Films and Method and Madness.

Katy has also served on the boards of Dance UK, Cheshire Dance and Dance North West and has been Chair of the Management Liaison Group (Dance UK), a member of the Independent Theatre Council's Training Committee and the Arts Council of England's Development Advisory Panel for Dance, and a performance assessor for the Dance Department of the Arts Council.

Katy has a post-graduate diploma in Arts Management from City University and a post-graduate certificate in Script Editing from Liverpool, John Moores University."

Not for me to get too puzzled about the chronology - either ARC haven't updated their site for her leaving or she's still there as well as General Manager of Rambert Dance Company. I'd guess at a web-site nonsense. Jolly good luck to her, anyway.

Speaking of Olympics as above, sailing club to which I belong has had mention of Weymouth 2012, and needing to have proposals in order some years before. I suspect that while it seems an age away, the time will fly. [Just heard what sounds like Chris wood on R3]

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM

Once the Beijing Olympics are over then the run-up to the 2012 London Olympics will begin.

As people interested in the folk arts we can be part of that and look towards the funding that may be available to promote our interests. There will be money missing as the games take funding but there will also be a huge cultural festival which will run alongside the Games (it is a less well-publicised part of the Olympics).

If Katy Spicer and the Arts Managers of this world can help the folk arts in general and the EFDSS to gain a part of that, then great.

Or we can blink and miss it.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:29 PM

never admited to being a good speller *LOL*

The Mole catcher's Apprentice (hukt on fonix neva werkt fourmee)

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:15 PM

Grammar doesn't have an E in it. Just saying.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:55 PM

""reductive perspectives" in order to get on as a folk musician"

well I heard from a form pilot that he felt you need a degree in Computer Sciences to fly the modern combat planes...so why not a First in English Grammer to be a folk musician? *LOL*

The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (nursery school drop-out)

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:39 PM

the fact is, no one makes an artist apply for funding. If people want to stay out of the funding quagmire (having just completed a G4TA applicaton today, I am well aware of the quagmire), that's fine. They can stay within the boundaries that make them happy, and good luck to them. But why this suspicion of people who want to do something different?

I'm not sure what this "pattern" is supposed to be: innovation? Risk-taking? Collaboration? Well, crikey. Run away now. Goodness knows we can't have any of that in folk music.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 02:03 PM

what was quoted:

"see if you can see a pattern emerging.There's a difference in style, isn't there? Whether it is to yopur taste or not, you can't deny a difference."

what was actually said:

"Remember, it is diffult to touch pitch and remain undefiled. Just as a little thought(or listen) experiment: have a little listen to some recent folk projects that have attracted cultural funding to enable them to be created. Then have a listen to some stuff that didn't. And see if you can see a pattern emerging.There's a difference in style, isn't there? Whether it is to yopur taste or not, you can't deny a difference."

can YOU spot the differences..?...there I knew you could :-)


The Mole Catcher's Apprentice (non-government subsidised)

Subject: RE: EFDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:54 PM

On the other hand, if she is truly to Execute the FDDSS why should the EFDSS or folkies care?

Management speak is usually an evil thing, and while the EFDSS needs to raise money I would worry that that might be corrupting, so that FOLK dance and song could become forgotten. I do however think we might wait and see!

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Ruth still at work
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:53 PM

BTW - all these guests are me - I keep forgetting my cookie's at home.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:53 PM

"modish phrases like "reductive perspectives" in order to get on as a folk musician.The people who made the name we call it by managed not to lard their songs with this sort of thing."

sorry - I'll try to use fewer syllables in future. I did find Guest Dave's perspective reductive: the idea that any funding is fundamentally evil is frankly over-simplistic and absurd.

"see if you can see a pattern emerging.There's a difference in style, isn't there? Whether it is to yopur taste or not, you can't deny a difference."


Wheras, of course, it would be much better if everyone just stayed the same.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: oggie
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:20 PM

I looked at the appointment and thought, "Thank God, not one of the usual suspects, an experienced administrator, not aligned to any of the factions. Great and imaginative appointment, now watch all the carpers come out of the woodwork prophesying doom and gloom"

Sadly the last bit seems to be happening too quickly, I still believe that time will show it to be a good choice.

Good luck in the job.

Steve

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

Sorry if it's sad - I'm being pragmatic. And I was speaking quite specifically about something that is part of our national heritage.

I'm not suggesting it needs to become institutionalised, but surely most people would agree that the level of support and status afforded by the government - and by the public at large - to England's folk and traditional heritage is pretty poor. Especially when compared to that of other nations.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: greg stephens
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM

There is a lot to what "GUEST Ruth at work" says. But I do think it is a bit of a shame that we have allowed the country to reach such a cultural state that is necessary to understand modish phrases like "reductive perspectives" in order to get on as a folk musician.The people who made the name we call it by managed not to lard their songs with this sort of thing.
Remember, it is diffult to touch pitch and remain undefiled. Just as a little thought(or listen) experiment: have a little listen to some recent folk projects that have attracted cultural funding to enable them to be created. Then have a listen to some stuff that didn't. And see if you can see a pattern emerging.There's a difference in style, isn't there? Whether it is to yopur taste or not, you can't deny a difference.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 11:42 AM

"Status comes from being acknowledged and supported at national government level"

How sad.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Ruth still at work
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM

Hey - look what just popped into my e-mail in-box!

"White Horse Ceilidhs present

Boldwood + Will Hall

in Grove Village Hall, OX12 7JY, (nr Wantage, Oxfordshire)

Supported by The National Lottery®
through Awards for All via
SEFAN's Ceilidh Consortium scheme

Doors open 7.30pm for 8pm-11:30pm"


A ceilidh consortium being run by a bunch of clearly self-interested Arts Managers, achieving funding through the lottery...who'da thunk it?

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Ruth at work
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:26 AM

"Do you really think that the relative strength of the Scottish and Irish folk scene is down to public funding..." yup. And government support. Both of which are sadly lacking in England.

"We've seen for over twenty years that the Arts Council (in its various guises in England) has been more concerned with government targets for "inclusion", ticking charts on clipboards and the religion of homogeneity/multi-culti rather than anything recognisable as an English tradition. In its search for the New it actively funds activities which water-down Englishness and tradition."

Yes, the inclusion agenda has led a lot of funding policy (though I wouldn't say it's been 20 years - the Tory government was much more interested in the arts becoming self-funding. The inclusion agenda can pretty much be traced back to the PAT 10 Report on the impact of the arts on social exclusion in the late 90s).

But things do change, and a lot depends on specific circumstances, time and place, etc. As it happens, there are myriad projects around right now which are not about watering down the tradition, but about giving people access to it without any social or "multi culti" (my, what an offensive term!) dimension. EFDSS's Take 6 Project, recently funded by Heritage Lottery, is one example. The folk outreach project I do with local schools would not be happening were it not for Grants for the Arts. There are lots more.

"Folk traditions do not; they can be self reliant and deliciously at variance with the "Approved Art" sector."

Yes, if you want them to remain an insular, amateurish backwater. Personally, I don't. I refer back to my point about the numbers of people actively engaging with their folk heritage. Small as it already is, you would have that number decreasing exponentially with every ACE grant you turn your nose up at. It's a straightforward fact.

"Professionalised Arts Management MBAs"

Is there such a thing? It's usually a BA or an MA degree.

"(who rarely commit to more than two years in any job) are as likely to be the enemy of authentic traditions as their saviour, regardless of what their own hype says to the interview panel."

Well, as a BA Hons (1st Class) in Arts Management, who has in fact taught Arts Management at university level, I would dispute this. I can think of several colleagues who did my course who are working very hard within the folk and traditional arts, both as part of their current brief and in addition to their day jobs, bringing their wide-ranging skills and experience into the folk sector. I've been in my current venue for three years and hope to be here for some time to come - I run a small folk festival and a folk outreach project as part of my job, by the way.

Oh, and I'm on National Council for EFDSS. Us Arts Managers, we don't give a stuff about the tradition, you see.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:04 AM

Ruth at work "Really? And are you proud of the place they occupy in contemporary British society right now? Proud of their status, the general level of public engagement with the national heritage in the form of traditional arts? I'm not. When people hold up Scottish and Irish tradition as a shining beacon and ask what they've got that the English tradition has, I've got one answer: money. Status comes from being acknowledged and supported at national government level, both in policy and financially. That ain't gonna happen if you keep your head in the sand and run away from government "handouts"."

Do you really think that the relative strength of the Scottish and Irish folk scene is down to public funding and Arts Management gurus? Admittedly, they've latterly become a feature but it's a pretty Johnny-come-lately thing.

The strength of those traditions is probably more to do with national pride and a distinct identity rather than a hand-out and a cynical consultant-led arts scene. We've seen for over twenty years that the Arts Council (in its various guises in England) has been more concerned with government targets for "inclusion", ticking charts on clipboards and the religion of homogeneity/multi-culti rather than anything recognisable as an English tradition. In its search for the New it actively funds activities which water-down Englishness and tradition.

For Grand Opera and other large-scale, technically complex, forms to survive, patronage is needed (though not necessarily from government). Folk traditions do not; they can be self reliant and deliciously at variance with the "Approved Art" sector. They come from the people, for the people. Professionalised Arts Management MBAs (who rarely commit to more than two years in any job) are as likely to be the enemy of authentic traditions as their saviour, regardless of what their own hype says to the interview panel.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,Ruth at work
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:43 AM

"I now see it as a dirty business that ultimately corrupts the art form it is supposed to be saving."

Oh for the days when we could afford to be purist! Unfortunately, everybody now knows how to play the game.

"Folk music and dance would be better, imho, running in the opposite direction whenever one of these fly-by-night Arts Management wonks comes calling...The beauty of the traditional folk arts is that they really do not need to engage with this baloney; they've survived and flourished without intervention for centuries."

Really? And are you proud of the place they occupy in contemporary British society right now? Proud of their status, the general level of public engagement with the national heritage in the form of traditional arts? I'm not. When people hold up Scottish and Irish tradition as a shining beacon and ask what they've got that the English tradition has, I've got one answer: money. Status comes from being acknowledged and supported at national government level, both in policy and financially. That ain't gonna happen if you keep your head in the sand and run away from government "handouts".

"They are not, and should not be, reliant on consultants and quasi-governmental handouts. Art as welfare is not edifying... or even usually worth seeing/hearing."

Right - so that counts out most of the professional arts companies in this country, including the RSC, ROH, Royal Ballet, and most of the regional theatres and venues. And a substantial number of folk festivals, companies and projects which have all, at one time or another, been in receipt of government subsidy. I'd love to know how these have all been "corrupted" by the government's dirty money.

Happily, EFDSS is moving into the 21st century and looking forward, and not getting tangled up in such ridiculous and reductive perspectives.

Welcome Katy.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:27 AM

"Thus speaks someone who's presumably never had to play the game, and probably never achieved much in the way of funding. "

Au contraire, on both counts: I have and did. I now see it as a dirty business that ultimately corrupts the art form it is supposed to be saving. Folk music and dance would be better, imho, running in the opposite direction whenever one of these fly-by-night Arts Management wonks comes calling. I used to be one - to my shame - but never again. The beauty of the traditional folk arts is that they really do not need to engage with this baloney; they've survived and flourished without intervention for centuries. They are not, and should not be, reliant on consultants and quasi-governmental handouts. Art as welfare is not edifying... or even usually worth seeing/hearing.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,MargotF
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:17 AM

Lanfranc... It seems to me that a move from General Manager to Chief Executive is a wise one on her part and points to some ambition to succeed.

GUEST,David..

She successfully raised Arc's profile, developed partnerships, as well as an education programme, and boosted the company's fund raising.

Strike 'Arc' & insert 'EFDSS' and hope for success. Ok, in terms of profile I've never heard of Arc but I guess lots of people who have aren't aware of EFDSS so that doesn't mean much.

Anyway, I'll be renewing my membership this time round

..... and I'm enjoying the magazine these days.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:07 AM

"All the Arts Council management-speak about partnerships and strategic this 'n' that is usually smoke and mirrors."

Thus speaks someone who's presumably never had to play the game, and probably never achieved much in the way of funding. I think we're better off with someone who can navigate relationships with external funders than someone with a passion for country dancing, to be frank.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,David
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:59 AM

I hope we're not in for a reign of PC boswelox at EFDSS. Most contemporary dance companies (including those mentioned as previous employers) have been infected with this anti-reality, anti-indigenous arts, fashionable nonsense in recent years. All the Arts Council management-speak about partnerships and strategic this 'n' that is usually smoke and mirrors. Let's hope she "thinks out of the box" (ha, ha!) and doesn't see tradition as a dirty word.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Lanfranc
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:58 AM

My concern, other than her inevitable dance bias, is the fact that she has only been with Rambert since July 2006. I would have hoped that EFDSS might have tried to recruit someone with a somewhat longer focus or with some evidence of long-term commitment!

However, she seems to tick a lot of the right boxes, so we can but hope.

Alan

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:47 AM

EFDSS has co-operated with Ballet Rambert in the past, and Dame Ninette de Valois (she and Rambert were enormously influential on the development of ballet in Britain) was a Patron of the Society; the connection with ballet and contemporary dance is of long standing.

I am glad that the interregnum is over. We should not forget Hazel Miller's excellent work as Chief Executive in getting the Society on a sound business footing and implementing the new publishing programme, but now we look to a new stage of development, which I hope will be both interesting and productive.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:47 AM

I wish her every success.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:10 AM

While Katy clearly has a lot of experience in contemporary dance, the point is that she is a highly experienced Arts Manager. The fact that she doesn't come from a specific folk artform bias (what Rambert do is about as far from morris or ceilidh as it's possible to get) means there's no personal agenda.

As someone primarily interested in music and song I am not remotely concerned that her previous dance experience will be an issue. She has substantial experience in certain key strategic areas which are essential to the society's growth and development in the coming years - this is much more important than whether she likes dance or song or even melodeon playing best.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:44 AM

I think I might be tempted to worry, but let us wait and see.

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: mattkeen
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:36 AM

Not that she's got a lot of dance experience then......


I am sure her skills are transferable to the music side of things as well as the library

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: the button
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 05:24 AM

Strikes me as a good appointment, and quite imaginative in terms of her previous experience. Urban dance probably has as much, if not more, of a claim to be a folk art than... (reaches for tin opener for can of worms).

Subject: RE: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: GUEST,MargotF
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 08:01 PM

Ballet Rambert??? That should keep EFDSS 'on its toes'!!

:-)

Subject: FDDSS New Chief Exec.
From: Vic Smith
Date: 26 Nov 07 - 10:54 AM

****Just received this from the EFDSS****

ENGLISH FOLK DANCE AND SONG SOCIETY

PRESS RELEASE                                                   
26 November 2007                                                                            Immediate Release

New Chief Executive for English Folk Dance & Song Society

The English Folk Dance and Song Society is delighted to announce the appointment of Katy Spicer as its new Chief Executive.

Katy Spicer comes to the EFDSS with extensive experience in arts management. She is currently General Manager of Rambert Dance Company, the UK's flagship contemporary dance company, where she has been managing a new capital project, as well as promoting and managing Rambert's overseas and special performance projects alongside other management responsibilities.

Earlier in her career, Katy was Executive Director and Co-Chief Executive Director of Arc Dance Company. She successfully raised Arc's profile, developed partnerships, as well as an education programme, and boosted the company's fund raising.

Katy is also a former Administrative Director and Co-Chief Executive Director of Chester Gateway Theatre and General Manager of Green Candle Dance Company. As a freelance arts manager and consultant, Katy has worked with theatre and dance companies, as well as venues, on strategic and business planning and financial management.

Katy is a trustee, and currently Chair, of Independance, a London-based organisation nurturing artists working in urban dance forms. She has also been an advisor and performance assessor for Arts Council England.

Katy's experience of folk music and dance started at school, and her parents organised folk music events in Shoeburyness, Essex in the late 1960s.

Katy Spicer says, "I am delighted to be joining the EFDSS, particularly at such an exciting time in the organisation's distinguished history."

Mike Norris, Chair of the EFDSS, welcomed Katy's appointment. "These are exciting times in the folk music world and the appointment of such a talented arts manager demonstrates our determination to be at the forefront of this movement."

Katy Spicer's appointment starts on 18 February 2008.

Ends