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Tech: PCv/s MAC
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Subject: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: kendall Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:43 PM At the risk of dropping a clod in the churn, I'd like some opinions. I was just informed that my 5 year old computer has "shit the bed" (to use an old Maine saying) and I need to buy another. I know nothing about Macs because I have never used one. Can I get some opinions and facts to compare one to the other? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: dick greenhaus Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:45 PM Having used both, I must say that there isn't a helluva lot of difference. MAC's architecture is neater; PC's cost a lot less. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bill D Date: 27 Nov 07 - 03:50 PM MACs will, obviously, do everything that most folks 'need' to do, but PCs are, as Dick says, less expensive and more 'familar'. If logic prevailed, EVERYONE would use MACs, and all interesting programs would be re-written for MACs...but some things just do not exist for them. ...and, it may be like the difference between automatic & stick shift cars.....some just prefer the tinkering and tweaking that goes with PCs. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: peregrina Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:05 PM Having to use both (pc at work, mac at home), I experience a huge difference! The mac is stable, reliable, intuitive, practically connects itself to the web... sure they'll both do what you need, but it's worth giving the mac a test drive at least. If you have cats and such about the desk, the magnetic electric cord thing-y on the new mac laptops is a reason on its own to go mac. If you're concerned about cost try a guaranteed factory refurb. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Newport Boy Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:34 PM I've very limited experience of Macs, but they seem very simple to get started on. My problem was with Mac users - they didn't know which program opened which sort of file, or how to change this. Not their problem - they'd never needed to know. I stick with PCs mainly because of the number of specialist programs I use, all of which are either free or below £50. As far as I can find out, there are very few equivalents on the Mac. Otherwise, I'd be tempted. Phil |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: EBarnacle Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:36 PM It's sort of like the difference between Nissans and Toyotas. Both have their adherents. If you have a need to do graphics and such you might lean toward the MAC. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:39 PM I've just bought a Mac after years of being a Windows user, but part of the reason I did so is that you can actually run both platforms on the Mac, which means you don't have to abandon your Microsoft programmes & familiar habits (or that cute little Search-dog). There are a couple of ways to do this, too complicated to try to explain in a short post, but then you're not cutting yourself adrift. It does mean you have to buy the Windows operating system to install on the new Apple alongside its own OSX, because Microsoft require a new license - but you can get XP if you want it (or at least I could). Here (Ireland) the price seems to be much more competitive, and the big obvious advantage is that Apple is more internet-secure. Personally I'm very glad I bought mine, but bear in mind that in going for dual operating systems, it was more an expansion than an outright switch. A lot depends on what you want to do (I edit music software a lot, and my programmes run on both systems & are fully compatible, which bypasses some major headaches right there). Oh dear, still haven't really answered your question - the truth is I like some things better on Apple and other things better on Windows, which doesn't help you much. Do you have a particular type of work you need to do? Maccies reading this, take note: There is soon to be a Mac Users' Permathread, but it's still being set up at the moment - there are some very knowledgeable Mudcatters using Macs who I hope will want to come hang out there. All I can say is, I'm very glad to have the benefits of both Apple and Windows. For me it's a win-win. Best of luck to you Kendall - Bonnie PS: If there are any symbols you use a lot, be sure the check out the differences in the physical layout of the keyboards, because there are some small changes between them (also: are you after a laptop or a desktop, because that makes a difference too). One that I can think of, which I gather is a headache for software programmers, is the hache key (or sharp sign, or tic-tac-toe sign): # In order to type that on my Mac laptop I had to hold down a hot key and press the 3 because there's no dedicated key for #. If you're trying to type that symbol in your Windows OS using a Mac keyboard you have to organise a workaround - there IS one but I can't remember what it is at the moment - but I just use the sharp symbol from my Opus music font. Stuff like that you need to consider, but again, it depends on what you're trying to do. How soon do you need to decide? See y'all soon in the Permathread I hope :-) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,petr Date: 27 Nov 07 - 04:57 PM well I would definitely ignore those mac pc commercials.. Ive been using both for at least 10years at work. We had to have a mac since for years that was the computer to use for graphic design files.. And I know that mac users think its so much more elegant than pcs in design etc...Ill grant that.. but weve had problems with people uploading mac files to our ftp site since, the resource fork info is discarded in the process (not a problem with pc files) And after paying $2500+ (Canadian) a couple of years ago for the latest dual-core processor mac I see that it crashes constantly (daily).. And weve re-formatted the drive and reinstalled everything several times.. Now you can get a pretty good pc for less than $600 Canadian.. In fact another option to look into is one of those $200 Laptops (that one intended for 3rd world kids) Apparently soon you can get one for $400 and a second one goes to the kids.. (It has supposedly the best screen of any laptop- low power and easily readable in the sun) and the antenna for wifi is twice as powerful as standard laptops) and can be handcranked.. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:16 PM IF you have a Mac which crashes, you need to get someone competent in to tweak it for you. Reinstalling sounds like overkill to me -- of course I don't know the whole history and you could have gotten a rare unit which had a RAM chip askew in it or some such. Everyone knows where I stand on this issue. I use Windows all day at work and am always delighted to get home to my Mac. I have not used Leopard (the latest version of the Mac OS) but every version of OSX I have used up until now has been robust and stable. Kendall, you will find there is hardly any learning curve for the kind of work you do -- the applications are all very similar. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Rowan Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:59 PM Bonnie described troubles with the # symbol, which is usually referred to as the "hash" symbol by people in the UK, Oz and NZ but called the "pound" symbol by North Americans, I believe. There is a thread on symbols (which I can't find at the moment) where JohninKansas gave an excellent post on the differences between how one produced this symbol, depending on the "nation of origin" of the keyboard and the software; I think he was dealing with Windoze XP2. In Oz, the symbol appears on my keyboard (both Windoze XP2 and Mac OSX 10.4.10) and appears normally in anything I type so this particular symbol presents no problem for me. However, some of the more arcane symbols that students want to use (some Greek maths symbols, the superscript and small "o" for degrees, the carets and other diacriticals for European words and names) are more problematic. PopChar was a good acquisition for such things on Macs in the old days and others on Mudcat have given useful workarounds for displaying AASCI codes in Windoze, but I tired of most of the workarounds. These days I keep a Word file with all the symbols and diacriticals I need and keep a shortcut to it displayed on the screen (when using Windoze) or in the sidebar or the Dock (when using the Mac) and do a cut&paste when required, into any of the applications' files I insert it into; this seems to work well in all the fonts I currently want to use. Those students who know me get a copy of the file, by email, if they ask and it seems to work for most. Currently, a friend is dealing with several Turkish words that require a lowercase "i" without the dot; I have suggested whiteout but I'm trying to find such a symbol. The Permathread seems like an excellent move. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: M.Ted Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:21 PM Petr, you need to take that to the Apple Store nearest you and demand that the "genius" fix it--it is one of the few bonafide mac problems, and it is particularly unpleasant. There are a couple firmware fixes for it, but it is a problem related to heat, batteries and heat sinks--among those who suffer from it, it is called "Random Shutdown Syndrome"-- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Midchuck Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:31 PM If you go PC, try to find one where you can still get Windows XP. They push Vista, and new computers mostly come with it, but it takes them two or three years to get a new operating system to work well. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: kendall Date: 27 Nov 07 - 07:33 PM I don't do anything complex or fancy on my PC. I do store a lot of photos and documents. Mostly funny videos. I never use it to do things that I would worry about if it got hacked. I do have a lot of trouble with my e mail server, Outlook express, but if I buy another PC I will shift to another server. It looks like the Mac would be too expensive for a toy, which is what my PC is. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 07 - 08:34 PM Photos, sounds-- you'll never find a better platform than a Mac with iLife built into it to deal with these things. Trust me on this. You'll have more fun doing it on a Mac. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Dan Keding Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:19 PM I switched about eight years ago from a PC to a Mac and have never looked back. I find the Mac's more user friendly than the PC's. I am not a techie - very much the opposite - and my new IMac is just perfect for me. The Mac's I've had have been extremely reliable, not prone to viruses or other bugs, and just plain easy to use right out of the box. The cost is not that different especially if you shop around. I got mine through the university where my wife works and it was a bargain - even came with a free Canon printer. Hope that helps. Dan |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:20 PM Kendall, when you say email server do you mean email programme (which is what Outlook is)? If so, then by "having a lot of trouble" I take it you're referring to security hassles! Regardless of whether you go Mac or stay with PC, you need to download Mozilla's free email programme Thunderbird, which will perch quite happily in either a Mac or a PC. It's put out by the same people who do the Firefox web browser. I have both Thunderbird and Firefox and they will cohabit quite peacefully with either Internet Explorer & Outlook OR Safari & Mail (Mac equivalents). Link here: http://www.mozilla.com/en-US/ 'Thunderbird 2" is a little ways down the page, beneath Firefox. Got a good spam filter too. Free too. Go for it. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:10 PM Or you can use the Apple Mail program that comes with your Mac... A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Rowan Date: 27 Nov 07 - 10:24 PM When I first started using email it was from a Mac Plus connected through the work server. In those days Eudora was free and the best emailer going on the Mac. Since then I have changed machines many times but Eudora is still free, available for both Windoze and Macs and allows me to keep all my messages organised the way I want and on my own machine so, despite the blandishments from other suppliers, it's the program of choice for me. It also doesn't do things in the background unless I tell it to, unlike some others. Cheers, Rowan |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Jon Date: 28 Nov 07 - 01:15 AM "Kendall, when you say email server" He means email client (ie. OE, Thunderbird, etc.). |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 28 Nov 07 - 02:06 AM What Mr. Greenhouse wrote is the summation of years of discussion and debate. I agree with Dick.
Two weeks ago .... a thread from 99 was resurected ... it has some current discussion:
As noted in the thread - Mr. Mossberg and I are biased to PC - however, he gives some very compeling MAC arguments in his WSJ report:
There are some VERY radical changes coming in the next 18 months - beginning with INTEL's new chip standard next month. However, most apps for common folk continue to be 16 and not 32....and even with VISTA most folk are adviced to not move into 64 yet.
Sincerely,
My personal preference is an 8088 with DOS 2.0. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Keinstein Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:19 AM You might consider buying a PC- they are a lot cheaper to buy and to maintain than MACs, if rather less reliable (because they are cheaper). But avoid Vista like the cliche, it's designed mainly to protect the entertainments industry. Either XP or even better windows 2000 if you can get it- or use Linux. However, that's only really worth doing if you have broadband, as the application installation process is a pain without it. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Andrez Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:33 AM We really need to bust a few myths about the Mac vs PC debate. The first thing is that what we are really talking about is the difference between operating system software i.e. Mac OS vs Microsoft Windows (and of course but to a lesser degree Linux). So we have computers made by Apple that run Mac OSX. We have PC's made by a zillion manufacturers that all basically run some flavour of Microsoft Windows. There are real differences between these two systems and these should be considered carefully by anyone contemplating buying a computer. Some of the more immediate issues have to do with the design of the user interface. This is what people use to get their computers and programs to "do" things. from my perspective as a user of both systems and in IT Support, the Macs wins hands down because the user interface is geared to the way people work and interact with computers. The Microsoft interface makes people adapt to it and its quirks. It is in places illogical, inflexible and at times down right ugly (Please dont get me started on security issues, viruses, spyware, buggy software drivers, DOS and proprietry code instead of open standards just for starters). It also forces people to have to learn a hell of a lot about computers than they ever really want to know and supports a huge industry of tech support consultants who you have to pay to get your computer to do things if you havent the interest or the aptitude to learn how to do it yourself. This then adds to the cost of the initial purchase particularly if you are unlucky enough to get a cowboy disguised as a "tech". The other differences between Macs and PC's basically have to do (a) with hardware components and (b) the design considerations that go into how the computer is presented. IMHO there is NO debate about the design issues. Is there anyone out there using the worlds ugliest desktop: the green hillside image that is the default desktop in XP? In relation to hardware there is a myth I have seen in some of the posts above and in other threads where it is suggested that Macs Cost more than PC's. To clarify some of the debate in this respect I have abridged an old article to make a few points and debunk the myth of the Mac as an expensive option. Note that due to the age of the article I have edited it for relevance to todays computing environment. That aside the points that are made are real and should form the basis of any representative discussion about the relative merits of Macs and PC's in terms of hardware issues. ------------------------------- MACS COST MORE THAN PC'S David K. Every ©Copyright 1999 Understanding the ownership costs of personal computers Initial Purchase Price This is the actual initial cost to buy a computer. In general Macs cost less than name brand PC's and offer much more performance/value at that cost. Most buyers naively only look at the initial purchase price of a computer and think that is "it". But the cost of a computer is its lifetime costs (not just the initial cost). Lets break down all the different aspects of computer costs individually: You can still buy chop-shop garage clones for PC's for less than Macs, but you get much less. Of course you can also bargain shop for Macs and pick up refurbished machines (with warranty's) or discontinued models for less than these chop-shop machines. When you start averaging for value - warranty, reliability, usability, Hardware you get with the Mac software you get with Macs, then even retail Macs come out as the far better deal. Some PC users are penny smart but pound foolish - they save a few bucks up front (or think they do), and don't ever realize how much they cost themselves down the line. Productivity / Ease of Use A machines real value is not measured in how much it costs, but in how much the user can use it, and how quickly and easily. Every study ever done has concluded that the Mac was easier to use, and that its users were more productive. Which is the real measure of a computers value. Many other examinations have been done on how many applications a computer user actually uses on their machines, or what they are using their machines for. Mac users, on average, are using more applications than PC users. Mac users are often using more cutting edge capabilities and pushing the envelope. Mac users are using their machines more. Which all makes perfect sense when you remember that this is the computer that is the easiest to use. Maintenance (Support) Costs and expansion Computer costs not only are the purchase price, but also all of the day to day costs to keep the machine up and working, upgraded and updated. Peripherals The is an old myth that Macs use special peripherals that cost more than the PC counterparts. But the Mac has almost always supported the same peripherals as PC's. Sometimes Mac variants have more features - like Apple monitors support resolution sensing and higher scan rates (for clearer images) - but Macs still work with PC peripherals as well. Conclusions Even if the PC's did cost less initially that would not alleviate all the other factors that contribute to a computers cost. Macs are still easier to install, easier to maintain, and easier to use - which is a lot of costs (time and money). Macs are easier to expand, and are often far more expandable (and pre-expanded) as compared to PC's. Macs offer more value, have higher customer satisfaction and higher reliability than PC's. --------------------------------------- Another myth that I'll address in another post is that there is some software that is only available for PC's.. implying that for this reason Macs are somehow less than adequate relative to PCS. Cheers, Andrez |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: kendall Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:53 AM It looks like 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 28 Nov 07 - 09:59 AM Kendall: It's 8 of one, and 4 of the other. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Grab Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM As Keinstein says, stay away from Vista if you possibly can. In a couple of years, it'll probably work great, but for now it's a liability. I've not had huge experience with Macs, but when I've had to use them, I've found it tricky to make them do anything that I wanted them to (down to simple actions like creating a new file, editing it and saving it). The user interface is fundamentally different - not bad, but *different*. I don't believe the Mac interface is particularly "geared to how people work", it's simply that Mac users have learnt how it works, so what's obvious to them will be completely unobvious to someone used to a different interface. For an analogy, a regular stick-shift and an old Citroen-style "umbrella-handle" shift are both perfectly useable, but if you're used to a regular stick-shift then it's going to take you some time to get the hang of the other one. So if you're used to a PC and you change to using a Mac, you'll need to set aside a chunk of time to learn how to use it. If you're used to a Mac and you change to using a PC, you'll need to set aside a chunk of time to learn how to use it. If you use either and change to using Linux, guess what... :-) Andrez, that's historical fiction. Your quotes are 8 years old, which make them irrelevant in relation to modern computing. They're also fictional in the claims made. Macs are always more expensive and deliver less cost/performance than a corresponding PC from a reasonably-priced vendor. This is unavoidable by Macs being more limited in their ability to use new hardware as it appears or as it drops in price. Sure, a Mac might give better cost-performance than some brands like Alienware, but that's like comparing your regular desklamp to a jewelled Tiffany desklamp - if you're going for a brand-name like that then you're not buying it for its cost-performance ratio. For the same price as a Mac, you get more PC, and that's all there is to it. The best PC vendors incidentally are usually local mom-and-pop stores - not only can you get exactly what you want, but you can take it back when it doesn't work. Which is best for you will depend on the apps you want to use. If you only want to do email and word-processing, either will work fine, and the apps will be virtually identical. If you want to do graphics and video, Macs tend to have an advantage app-wise. If you want to do scientific or engineering work, PCs tend to have the advantage. I believe Macs are easier to trouble-shoot admin-wise. PCs aren't exactly rocket science, but they can be tricky. Peripherals-wise, it depends what you want to use. If it's USB or Firewire and it's a recent product then both will usually work. If it's an internal plug-in card, Macs usually won't do it and PCs usually will. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:18 PM Graham: Macs interactions with peripherals are a breeze. As a rule, Macs avoid internal plug-in cards in the way PCs use them, although they have absolutely no trouble handling added hard drives or other internal components. I doubt much time will be used learning the differences, aside from locating the various commands. THe functions of the windows and mouse interface established in 1984 by Jobs and Co are well estabslihed and consistent. Last night BBW gave me a video camera to use with my multimedia workstation, a G5. It was so hard to use I nearly fainted. Here's what happened. I plugged it in. I started iMovie. My face appeared on the monitor. I talked for a few minutes, clicked a button, and emailed the QuickTime movie to BBW as proof of concept. So, that was a struggle. I suspect if I had plugged the same device into a XP machine, it would have argued that it needed a driver. Then I woudl have gone off looking to download the driver and what for it to install. Then it might have worked. The general level of internal compatability and cooperative workability in Mac apps and peripherals is much higher than Windows users experience. The number of debugs and re-installs is much lower. The virus vulnerability is dramatically lower. The ease of use has always been higher. 'S a no-brainer. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Fibula Mattock Date: 28 Nov 07 - 12:55 PM Mac. Background to this choice: I'm a computer scientist these days. I do research on computers and research about computers and I teach computing. I use a Mac. Actually, I use two - an iBook at home and an iMac in work. I used to have a G5 in my last job and I loved it. I occasionally use Windows but I find it overinflated and unnecessarily complex - and a lot more unreliable. I chose the Mac because it is based on Unix which I much prefer as an operating system. I have far less control when using Windows. I like to be able to get complete control over my machine and I can do that with Unix. I have previously used Linux on a PC and it was okay (I believe Ubuntu is touted as being very user-friendly) but often Open Source software isn't sufficiently documented for my liking. Nowadays the Mac has much of the software PC users like, such as Office for Mac (so you get PowerPoint, Word, etc). The one thing I miss from Windows is TextPad, but the trade off is that so many other things are easier for me on a Mac. I use Thunderbird for my email, but many of my colleagues (in a university Computing Department) swear by the .Mac email software. Security-wise, Macs are way out in front. They aren't foolproof, but there are only very limited ways of infecting a Mac. PCs are great big virusy stores. Macs are brilliantly designed - great user interface design that just requires familiarising yourself with it, then it becomes intuitive. Apple pay a lot of attention to usability and user experience. (The best thing about my new iMac in work? I have access to everyone else's shared music library on the network - completely legally.) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Russ Date: 28 Nov 07 - 04:17 PM Wintel PCs give you more bang for the buck. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 28 Nov 07 - 05:30 PM Ptui. a tech review of Vista in all its weird flavors. My bang for the buck comes from happy hours of using the machine for my purposes, not answering to Microsoft's. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: elfcape Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM Grab says : "I've not had huge experience with Macs, but when I've had to use them, I've found it tricky to make them do anything that I wanted them to (down to simple actions like creating a new file, editing it and saving it)" Simple action like creating a new file - not sure what could be simpler than holding down the Apple key and touching the N (for New) key. Simple actions like editing a new file - well that's certainly open ended - just what sort of new file? Are you talking learning Word or Photoshop? If so, as a WordPerfect user I can't fathom Word, I'll never learn it on PC or Mac. It's horrid, stupid and unintuitive to me. As a Photoshop user for 13 years, and a photographer, it all makes perfect sense, but the keyboard commands on the PC are not consistent, so I prefer my Mac. Now for saving a new file - not sure what could be easier than hitting the Apple key and the letter S, holding them down briefly until the dialog comes up and asks you where you wish to save the file. So if you're not much of a Mac user, then I'm not sure you've even looked in the menus on the menu bar to find out how to do things when using the Mac. So I'm not sure you're in much of a position to talk about how intuitive the Mac OS is. But I can tell you - I've been a Mac user since 1994, and one day last winter I had to borrow a PC running XP. I thought it might have some viruses so I launched IE and went off to see what updates Micro$loth had to offer. After considerable reading on their site I discovered that there was a Security Pack 2, and figured I should try downloading that. I started and it got hijacked by a Porn virus - locked me onto a Porn site. So I tried to Quit IE, but the porn site wouldn't let me. Keep in mind that I have never seen a porn site up 'til now, and I'm not a spring chicken either with computers or the web. My Mac's browser doesn't get hijacked. It took 2 days to fix that PC and I wouldn't have succeeded if I hadn't seen an ad on the NYTimes site for AVG/SVG (I don't quite remember which), a free malware protection application. But, as a 13-year Mac user I'm happy to report that not only did I get that PC virus free, but I also installed the Security Update and returned the PC to its owner in good shape. If your average Mac user can fix a PC without a manual, I'm not sure I'd give too much credence to a PC users negative opinions of the Mac. Most PC users pay people to fix their PCs. Most Mac users don't have to fix their Macs. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: peregrina Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:32 PM A while back a mac user group newsletter had a joke that ran something like this: What if your car behaved like a PC. Stopped working or froze or crashed unpredictably. Needed to be restarted in mid-task. Had a back seat driver like that gizmo that says "I see you are trying to write a letter, would you like help" popping up all the time. And so forth and so forth. That vehicle would not last on the road--or be allowed there. Macs rarely rarely have those problems.... and the OS X systems are set up so if there is any sort of problem, your work is saved in a memory bubble and can be retrieved. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Fibula Mattock Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:50 PM I would also like to reassure those PC users with concerns about Macs that despite their almost total invulnerability to viruses, you can access plenty of porn on them - if you choose. Er, not that I'd know... honest :) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Chris Newman Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:54 PM I used nothing but PCs from 1992 until two years ago when I bought a Mac for the studio. It's _never_ crashed, unlike the machine it replaced. I now have 3 Macs and am working towards the time that the remaining PCs can be retired. My take on this is simple - if you want to constantly fiddle with a system in an attempt to make it work better, buy a PC. If you want to actually do something useful, head for the Apple store. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:03 PM "the studio..." Are you THAT Chris Newman? (Guitar genius partnered with harp genius) ? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Jon Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:51 PM "It looks like 6 of 1 and a half dozen of the other." No, just different computers for different people, Kendall. Amos clearly (and reasonably) likes a Mac and OS/X It is (a near entry level) PC running Linux for me. My impression from what you have said in this thread and past memories of computer discussions would suggest to me your best plan would be PC running XP. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Midchuck Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:57 PM Are you THAT Chris Newman? (Guitar genius partnered with harp genius) ? Nahh, he's the other one, the one who makes the good chicken and noodles. Peter |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:05 PM I'm a confirmed Eudora nut. Eudora, the last time I checked it - is dead. It will become 'Crowd Ware' - Open Source for Linux, but the 'improvements' touted' don't give me confidence that I will be able to take my existing mail files and use them on the Linux version in order to totally move from Win98SE to Linux. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: number 6 Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:06 PM I agree Guest Jon. Last June I had my wallet opened and was just about to purchase a Mac ... at the last second I changed my mind. I went out and bought an HP laptop and I'm happy with it ... the $800 (difference) I saved with this purchase I went out and put that towards a new guitar ... a Taylor, not a Martin ... but then some people like a Mac, and some are happy with the PC. Anyways Kendall, if your using your computer just for e-mails, web surfing, and some foto stuff and if you've been happy with a PC all along stick with the PC (and save your hard earned $$). You'll also save yourself from going through a techy learning curve. But if you wanna fast machine go for the Mac ... but then again how fast do we need to go ... if we go any faster we'll implode :) That's my 2 cents workingman's worth. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Jon Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:29 PM Re Chris Newman's comments, and being interested in Linux, I'm curious (not that I'd ever really use it - no needs), how 64 Studio works out on a PC. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 28 Nov 07 - 10:56 PM Eudora is still an alive and well-working email program, if you stick to Ver 6.2.4. QualComm has transferred the code to the Open Source Foundation and will not be supporting it themselves, but they have donated the code to be used in Thunderbird, the Open Source mail program. Qualcomm has dedicated some old Eudora hands to see to the migration of Eudora code to Thunderbird, but that migration is not complete, and it is not known when it will be. We are just now doing an experiment to see whether Eudora 6.2.4 will run under Leopard or not. It runs perfectly well under Tiger. I would suggest going into an Apple Store, Kendall, and having someone show you the lines on a Mac and see if you like it. Sticking with a PC because you have had one in the past is no guarantee of your future happiness. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: elfcape Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:45 AM As for crashing, the only time I had a Mac fail to start up was when my hard drive went south. That was in 1999. Unfortunately I tried using Norton to recover it. What a mistake. Lost a whole year's scans. Bad scene. But I'm far more conscientious about backing up now... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 02:41 AM Eudora 6.2 appears to function perfectly well under Leopard. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Grab Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:53 AM Elfcape, you're just illustrating precisely what I said - all user interfaces are easy when you know how. For any UI, there's a learning curve, and if you're going to change horses then you need to learn how the new horse behaves. If you already know a UI, then you might not want to move to a different one because of the time it'll take. I don't claim to be a proper Mac user, but I'm a fairly serious Windows user from the DOS6 days (my day job is software engineering), and if I have problems with switching to the Mac UI then you can be pretty damn sure that other people will too. Keyboard shortcuts are the classic here - for example, on Windows, I know I can do Win+E and get an Explorer window up. Easy? Sure. Intuitive? Nope. Something a beginner would know without reading the manual all the way through? No way. Or there's Photoshop, from your example. I've been meaning to fire up Linux for a while now, but I've never got round to it. There's no apps I particularly want from Linux, and I don't have that much free time, so there's little incentive. Similarly I probably wouldn't switch to a Mac in future because there's no apps for Macs which I particularly want that I can't also get on PC (or at least an equivalent). Unless the price of Macs came down below PCs, in which case there'd be an incentive. But having to spend extra time to learn a new system *AND* spend extra money to buy that system, all to do exactly the same thing - pointless exercise. As far as security goes, AFAIK I've never been hacked, never been virused. Got a virus scanner and firewall going, and that seems to take care of business. Plus I'm fairly sensible about what files I open, what sites I go to, and how I access emails (hint: if you use web-based email then you're a whole lot safer, whatever system you're using). Macs *do* get viruses and *do* get hacked, just not very often. But the major reason IMO is not particularly that Macs are secure. More importantly, it's that it's not worth a virus writer's time to code up a virus that'll only hit 6% of desktop/laptop computers and 0% of servers. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: kendall Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:39 AM I had a talk with my local computer guru, and he said if you buy a new computer, stay away from Vista. It is a troublesome pain in the ass. The only way to avoid that is to have one built including XP. Of course that costs more. $300.00. Right now I'm using Jacqui's lap top. I'm not impressed. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Alice Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:42 AM My first computer was a PC. I've owned 3 Macs since then. I recently bought a Mac PowerBook G4 from a refurbishing company in my town for $499. I LOVE my Macs. Alice |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:58 AM There are a goodly number of Mac based servers out there, Grab. I don't have a number, though. Intersting how you don't hear anyone saying they "love" their PC. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Newport Boy Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:06 AM Amos - I don't "love" any of my tools - hammer, shovel, computer or phone. I'm pleased when they are comfortable to use and last a good while. Phil |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Number 6 Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:08 AM Regarding Vista .... if your a techie, you'll hate it. If your just a 'user', you won't really know any difference (i.e. if your just gonna use it for email and web surfing) Bought our son and his wife a new pc last week as a wedding gift ... would have got them a Mac but I'm a cheap sob ... anyway, he is about as illiterate as one can get regarding the technical aspects of computing ... he set it up on his own (Vista and all), and is very happy with it. BTW ... Vista will evolve and the bugs will disappear ... remember the initial headaches re: Windows 98 and XP. As Macs become more popular, the quality will erode and the hackers will attack bringing forth the usual headaches of viruses, spyware etc. I don't love my pc ... but overall it does the job I want it to. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:26 AM "The quality will erode" why, exactly? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:29 AM As Macs become more popular, the quality will erode Apple's track record does not support this statement. I think it is imaginary. While some of the Mac's legendary lack of virus is due to their smaller installed base, another vector you seem to overlook is the architecture of UNIX. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Stu Date: 29 Nov 07 - 10:58 AM "As Macs become more popular, the quality will erode" And the evidence for this is? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 29 Nov 07 - 11:07 AM "As Macs become more popular, the quality will erode" As the sales for Macs continue to spiral upwards ... and all indications are there that they will ... the demand for these platforms will put considerable pressure on production .... either the cost will have to go up, which would put a kibosh on market growth or Apple will start eroding some of the quality aspects of the product to meet the demand of sales and keep the profit levels as high as they can. I doubt very much they can continue to keep the quality level as it is and satisfy the growing market share. Regarding 'track records' .. An object will continue to move at a constant velocity, unless a net force acts on it. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 11:13 AM The expression "economy of scale" seems to contradict the notion that increased volume requires lower quality and increased cost. I think this apparent phenomenon is a matter of quality standards adhered to by the organization. And, as an aside, neither Steve Jobs nor any of his employees are moving objects, subjects to the rules of NEwtonian mechanics. They never could have accomplished what they have, were they such. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 29 Nov 07 - 11:55 AM Regarding "quality standards adhered to by the organization." ... organization including the share holders who weigh a lot of influence regardless of the employees's vision .... we see evidence in todays world were the market demand is diminishing quality in a lot of goods we buy ... quality has been sacrificed for profits. Newtonian mechanics can be applied to Apple (than again, the shareholders) ... it happened with IBM's PC's. Once they were high quality products ... eventually (as the market demand put pressure on production) they became more of a "pain in the butt" due to defincencies in quality ... eventually it was easier for IBM to sell that division off to Lenovo than try to regroup and bring the quality back to it's previous level and meet the market demand. Another good example is Volvo .... they certainly aren't of the same quality as they used to be. biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: M.Ted Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:14 PM Doesn't the fact that Mac users love their computers, and everyone else says, "It gets the job done" tell you something? The latest thing I love about my Mac (OS 10.4) is Dashboard, which allows me to put any of about 2500 "Widgets" on my desktop--I've currently got weather, my date book, Starry Night(which shows me that Jupiter is about 20 degrees above the horizon,about 2 minutes shy of due north, with Mercury about 5 minutes East of due north), and a bar that shows me the status of everything in my system. (I am going to add a radio widget so I can listen to my Pandora channels) Since you have a lot of funny videos, Kendall, you might be interested to know that I have just downloaded a bunch of video clips from my camera, which I am about to upload to my video iPod--I have also got "Yellow Submarine" on the iPod, which I ripped from a DVD with software that is part of the Utilities bundle, and converted to a smallish MP4 file(the clips from my camera were already Mp4s)--all drag and drop--and all easier to do than to explain. Sorry if this sounds like a sleazy product endorsement-I don't generally do this sort of thing, but I felt like it needed to be said, to give some idea of what the Mac experience really is-- |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:17 PM Entropy -- and opportunities to emulate it -- abound in this wicked world. Creative energy and ethics, however, can still offset it. No one is obliged to organize along entropic lines. Jobs certainly does not. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: M.Ted Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:24 PM Number 6, you're grabbing at straws--you didn't buy the Mac, and now you've got a bad case of buyer's remorse. You could have even had a second chance, if you'd just given your new PC to your son--to quote the old song, "How Long, How Long....?";-) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:51 PM "Doesn't the fact that Mac users love their computers, and everyone else says, "It gets the job done" tell you something? Yeah .... fanatical cultists vs rationally minded people ! *joking* Mr. Ted ... in some ways you are correct ......... naw, I made the right decision, you Mac peeple got it all wrong! biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Russ Date: 29 Nov 07 - 02:58 PM I've used Wintel boxes and Macs. I've never fallen in love with an operating system or a package, though I have fond memories of Windows NT. I'm a bottom line sort of techie. Russ (Permanent GUEST) |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM I think there are, perhaps, two different ways of approaching a job of work. Creative souls take delight in tools that let them create the effects they intend, and those who are less creative but more oriented around efficiency just like a tool to get the job done. Either type will do better in the long run with Mac's general higher degree of reliability, but the sheer beauty of the interface design and many of the design features will be lost on the less inspired types. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:21 PM Geeeesh Amos ! Then there are those who really couldn't give a rat's ass about the interface design of their platform, but just take the pleasure ongetting their inspiration from a concept to an object of completion. In my case I've been inspired to take a foto of a 'something' ... I then download that 'something' from my camera to my computer 'platform' .. I then work on that 'something' via a foto tool application on that 'platform' to an object recognizble by me from that original moment of inspiration. Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass on what the hell is in that platform, I just give a rat's ass on that platform's capability to deliver. A jpg is a jpg to either a Mac or a PC In short, my PC does the job. That's all I care about in a computer. biLL :) biLL |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Bill D Date: 29 Nov 07 - 04:41 PM Just as an aside: I downloaded my first attempt at LINUX recently...a 'live CD' version of Knoppix. It fits on one 700 MB CD and works fine..I just need to get used to the file structure. I might be doing a partitioned dual-boot drive one of these days. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: M.Ted Date: 29 Nov 07 - 05:33 PM On the point that an elegant user interface isn't always important, I'll point out that there are even a lot of people around who disdain a GUI, and look askance at anyone who can't do everything with command-lines--here's a random quote that I found when I googled "I hate GUI's": " ...ultimately what's wrong with a GUI: A GUI will only let you do what the GUI's programmer envisioned you needing to do, and programmers frequently have no idea what administrators need. That's why command-lines are better: They're infinitely more flexible. I would even go so far as to say any command-line, even Cmd.exe, is better than a GUI when it comes to hardcore administration." To each his own... but I still love my Mac. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: dick greenhaus Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:47 PM It all depends on whether or not you want to do what the computer lets you do. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:24 PM What makes a good UI is that it makes it easy to do most of what YOU want to do. The Mac does this. In addition, if ever want to wander into the deep complexities of grepping or some such, I have a superb command line interface at the click of a button. Much friendlier than the Run==>Command++>etc. interface that won't let you copy, back-scroll, paste, etc. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: kendall Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:28 PM I think you have given me enough info, so I'm outta here. Thanks to you all. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:30 PM Do you have bash or similar, Amos? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,Jon Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:37 PM Not to worry. Have just answered my own question: http://developer.apple.com/internet/opensource/opensourcescripting.html |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 29 Nov 07 - 07:55 PM I have the whole range of UNIX commands if I need them; but that is rare. I can do shell scripts and so on. I don't spend much time in the low-level command structure these days. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,petr Date: 30 Nov 07 - 01:44 PM Thanks for your advice Mted and Amos.. but regarding the Mac crashing problem.. This isnt just the latest mac we have, weve had 3 generations. over the past 10 years. They all crashed frequently - far far more than our pcs.. I Know its more elegant but weve just had bad luck with them.. Petr |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: elfcape Date: 30 Nov 07 - 03:38 PM Have you got enough RAM? It still matters, but even then I've never known a Mac to crash. Maybe an application gets confused because you tell it to do something and don't give it a chance to do it before you tell it to do the next thing. Safari once in a while for me becomes unresponsive and I had my TiBook get very cranky this week because I added a new FireWire external drive and it was still formatted for PC. Generally when my Mac slows down under X.4.9 I just quit all applications and restart and that restores things to normal. There are also things like unresponsive web servers that make one think the Mac has the problem, but normally Safari or Mail will ping a site for at least a minute before you get the error message about the site's server being unresponsive. Sending large files to some desktop printers is not a particularly speedy process. I do have an impatient friend who, when something doesn't happen immediately, clicks on menus and buttons and the desktop, sort of like drumming her fingers on the desk, and then the poor Mac tries to remember all those little commands and that really slows things down. Have you talked with people about what you were doing when the Mac appeared to crash? |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: M.Ted Date: 30 Nov 07 - 06:04 PM Yes, they have been known crash, freeze, and hang--more often than anyone wants to let on, but probably a lot less often than PCs doing the same things. In OS X, though, a program can hang, and you can step out of it to the desktop, where you can force quit the program and restart it without having to restart the computer. That works very well when the browser hangs, which a fairly common problem. Other problems,can come from running more applications than you have RAM for---t)his could be a problem for people with older computers who have upgraded to a new OS without adding RAM), and also from running an application that was developed for either a later or much earlier OS. I shamelfully admit to freezing up repeatedly when running a particular application in OS 8.6, only to discover that it was developed for 9.22--the tech support folks were amazed that it ran at all.... Nobodies perfect.... |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: GUEST,petr Date: 30 Nov 07 - 07:39 PM honestly I'm not the one using it so I can't say. But over the years we've had 3 different people doing pre-press in our shop so I don't think they were all the same impatient type. |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM If you were doing prepress the chances are very good you skimped on the RAM needed to handle the very data-intense graphics files, or had a bad RAM chip. OR, you filled the hard drive up over 85%. A |
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Subject: RE: Tech: PCv/s MAC From: redsnapper Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:06 PM I've been responsible for a network of PCs at work, both using Microsoft and Unix servers (with virtual Windows machines), but always had a Mac at home. Most of what I would say has already been said. I am typing this on my work's laptop PC which is a functional and workmanlike device and which I also use at home. But to enjoy using a computer I would always use a Mac. RS |
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