Micro chips & Trackers

Subject: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:11 PM

Reading about stolen instruments and my distress if mine were stolen (even though they are insured)prompts me to once again bring up the discussion regarding installing built in chips or tracking devices into musical instruments.Some of out instruments are worth a lot of money and yet we do not keep up with the latest trends regarding the situation of them being stolen.Should we be doing more? We leave them at home when we go out,some are left in cars,some in pubs whilst we go for a pee,on stage ,behind stage,in tents etc etc the list goes on.It is only when they are stolen do we realise the difficulty of replacement,the anger at the bastards that have taken them and part of our sometimes daily life.
Is it not about time we started to plan to get our own back?
Someone needs to set up a World Wide system of tracking our instruments.A micro chip or tracker is so small now days it can be placed into a dogs neck in seconds. What do you think,Mass response and we bring down the price.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:19 PM

The microchip fitted in pets is only detectable with a close range scan ! To be able to pinpoint an instrument , you'd need a power supply for the chip !!

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 06:26 PM

Good idea...

Actually, i think we should micro-chip the musos, like dogs...

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Jack Campin
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:04 PM

I have once seen a blind man being loaded into an ambulance after collapsing in the street - the emergency personnel were scanning his dog's ear. I presume he had no ID and they were using the dog's data to find out who he was.

I can think of a lot of musicians who could be easily identified with a chip in their guitar, flute or accordion, as they would hold the thing with a death grip even while in no state to remember their own names and while being carted off to the drunk tank or accident & emergency ward.

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Peace
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

"as they would hold the thing with a death grip even while in no state to remember their own names"

That's true. I know. I KNOW!

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 07 - 09:30 PM

ROFLMAO!

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:26 AM

No thanks, i'm a veggie.

.... i'll get my coat

sal
8-)

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:06 AM

The trouble is that thieves are often one step ahead of honest folk. It would be trivially easy to install a tag in most instruments. But for it to be effective, the reading technology has to be widely available and cheap (as it is). This means that thieves would have access to it, and professionals would check if the instrument has an ID. Having ascertained this, they could then easily locate it and remove it. Drunks and druggies wouldn't check, but would be disposing of the instrument back- street at a low price anyway.

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: gnomad
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 08:00 AM

I am puzzled that Smart Water doesn't seem to be more widely known. It would seem to me to be an ideal application for this technology.

Of course you would need to keep up the subscription, but compared with the cost of the instruments themselves?

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Grab
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 11:10 AM

Gnomad, that only helps when potential buyers can check it. If the buyers don't (or can't) check, then it's not much use.

Installing something in the instrument itself might be tricky. In the case though, there's definite possibilities. It would be perfectly possible to install a mobile-phone-and-GPS module somewhere in most hardshell instrument cases.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM

A small battery could easily be installed for the power requirement.
In the case is a good idea Graham
Inside a concertina or similar instrument would be an easy thing to do.
How many thieves would check an instrument for a device.
How wonderful to knock on someones door with a policeman (if you can find one)and say "Excuse me can I have my concertina back"!!
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:07 PM

Its a great idea Alan , but the practicalities are a bit awkward

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Nov 07 - 07:54 PM

"How wonderful to knock on someones door with a policeman (if you can find one)and say "Excuse me can I have my concertina back"!!"


Hmmm, that's almost too good to let go thru to the keeper... but I'll be kind...


I suppose though that I could then take my piano accordion out in public with no fear. Even leave it on the back seat of the car with the window down, and not worry that when I return, there won't be another three alongside it?

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:52 AM

Another objection to GPS is that in less than ideal conditions it's only accurate to plus or minus 5-15m, or even worse (40m) indoors with a poor antenna*. You can't get a search warrant without a specific address, and knocking on ALL the doors of the flats in the worst estate you can think of might not be a survival tactic.

A dumb beacon in addition might give a local fix, but power requirements would probably make the battery large- I've done transmitters that last oover a year on a PP3, but that was transmitting a tiny burst every minute or so.

*The antenna orientation won't be predictable.

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:15 AM

I think that if enough people desire a tracking device for their personal belongings of value then someone will make one.I thought that someone was working a similar device for children to wear.
I seem to remember a TV program where clothes donated to charity were being stolen and shipped abroad,a tracking device was used by the program makers in a bag of clothes which led them to the actual factory where the clothes were being processed in a foreign country.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 04:47 PM

On Oz telly recently there was a series of programs about various migrations of birds, whales and caribou, hosted by a wally of a veterinarian who kept describing himself as a "vetinarian"; he wanked on about some raptor migrating from Maine to Colombia as the longest migration ever, forgetting about the mutton birds that go from Tasmania to the Bering Sea.

Rant aside, the relevance is that the birds were not large but were carrying transmitters that produced signals receivable by both hand-held receivers with very directional antennae (the sort of thing widely used by field biologists and with a range of about 1km) and satellites that could map their location with almost the same resolution and plot it onto a GIS.

Such instruments (and, importantly, their batteries) would have to be small and light but they seemed to provide no problem, either to the transporting birds nor with longevity of the batteries and could certainly fit into the case for a flute, let alone cases for concers, accodions or pipes. I gather the ones on the whales had small photovoltaic cells topping the batteries up but I can't recall such cells on the birds.

Worth a thought or two.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 06:00 PM

Sorry Rowan I just had a vision of a bird flying with a twelve volt car battery around it's neck,but seriously you are correct, there has been a number of programs tracking animals or birds for hundreds of miles.Surely what we want cannot be that difficult to produce.Probably spies have had them for years.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 03:38 AM

Actually, Alan, after reading YOUR post I just had a very disturbing mental flash of 2 African Swallows trying to carry a 12 volt car battery between them - Well I THINK they were African Swallows...

Always look on the bright side of life...

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 12:42 PM

I have been doing some research and I have located a company that provide the tracking of Medical Supplies and can follow any package wherever it goes.I have explained to them what we require and I will let you know what they can come up with.
The cage for two African Swallows are not part of the deal.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Leadfingers
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 02:56 PM

I must admit I had NOT considered the tracking devices used on birds - Something on those lines copuld well be of use on an instrument , though battery life And Replacing Batteries)may well NOT be as easy !

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 03:46 PM

The device that has been mentioned to me is button shape and size,no problems there.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: terrier
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:37 PM

Falconers regularly use tracking devices when flying their birds and they seem to work over quite long distances (the tracking devices).
I would think the old fasioned method of having a VERY good description of your musical instrument and making it publicly known when it has been stolen would be just as efective. The stolen instrument will hopefully turn up in one club or another eventually. Is there already a list of stolen instruments in the public domain?

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Alan Day
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:54 AM

Sadly Terrier most thieves store their loot away and bring it out years later.I would prefer to retrieve my concertina(s) as soon as possible if they were stolen and hopefully give the thief a sharp kick in the balls at the same time,
If an effective method was found to retrace stolen goods then Insurance Companies would reduce their premium.
Al

Subject: RE: Micro chips & Trackers
From: Rowan
Date: 12 Dec 07 - 09:28 PM

I've just had a conversation about this thread with a friend who uses radio trackers on small wildlife. He offered the following comments.

Trackers of the sort that the vet was using on the raptors that I described (that can be picked up by both handheld antennae and satellites) need a whip aerial about 8" (200mm) long. They get by with a small solar panel ~50mm (2") square and minimise battery size and use by only transmitting in daylight. Not much use for instrument cases. I'd say. And the satellite fees (charged daily) add up to the order of thousands of dollars. An instrument would need to be very valuable to make it cost effective, even if it worked.

On top of that, anything that uses satellite tracking needs to be in the open air with minimal tree cover; again, not much use for instrument cases. The system used for tracking trucks is used only on demand (a signal from HQ causes a transponder in the vehicle to respond, on request and usually at scheduled times; again, not much use for instrument cases.

He did mention there is a Finnish system (not available in Oz) that enables mobile phones to be tracked positionally; this is separate from any GPS function the phone might have. Such GPS functions require the receiver being in the open air but the cellphone towers triangulate the position of any cellphone that is both turned on and within range. Such systems don't require the instrument case to be in the open but would require enough battery grunt in the phone for it to last any length of time.

Cheers, Rowan