Primrose Polka and ABC software

Subject: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: quantock
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 12:09 AM

I searched on line for Primrose Polka in ABC notation and found it in a couple of places, but it seems to be a different version than the one I want. The version I am looking for is pretty much the way Bob Cann used to play it. Alternatively, the way Albion Band played it on the Album "Rise up Like the Sun" would do also. I believe they are very similar.
Can anyone help me with ABC or Sheet music (Preferably with chords) for this?

Also, I sometimes find tunes on line in ABC that I would like to transpose to a different key. Does anyone know if there is software available that can transpose automatically. It is a bit laborious and prone to error if I try to change it manually. The program I currently use to work with ABC is "ABC Navigator". This is a nice program once you get used to it, but it could use a few more features.

Thanks much,
Rob.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:48 AM

ABC Navigator does only a subset of ABC and (much more seriously) its author doesn't respond to bug reports. Use abcm2ps instead.

BarFly (for the Mac) will transpose for you. I believe there is a utility called abc2abc for Linux and DOS/Windows that will do source-to-source manipulations like that.

I've never heard the versions you're talking about. There seem to be at least two different ones in ABC on the web.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: treewind
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 09:03 AM

I thought ABCNavigator was a front end for abcm2ps!
(I installed it but never really go into it, prefer to do all my abc stuff on the Linux command line)

abc2abc is part of James Allwright's abcMIDI package. It does do transposition. It also has a rather odd command line syntax, and it's fussy about what it calls errors but aren't really (like starting or ending with an incomplete bar)- fortunately it has a switch to make it ignore such complaints. It's stuill very useful and as well as transposing the notes it converts chord annotations too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Lester
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 01:29 PM

You can transpose ABCs on-line at Jens Wollschläger's ABC Transposer

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 03:06 PM

Another site which has a utility to transpose ABC is Jon Freeman's site, Folkinfo.org .
Jon's converter also has options to print a score and to save a MIDI.

Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Norval
Date: 29 Nov 07 - 08:27 PM

The Folkinfo site is superior to the Jens Wollschlager site for transposition. The JW site makes a small error in the transposing of chord names. The chord name "G#dim" becomes A#eim" when raised 1 whole tone or "B#fim" when raised 2 whole tones. A small error but nevertheless an error.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:30 AM

We use abc2abc for transposition at folkinfo

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Compton
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM

I downloaded freeware ABC2Win which seems to work for me!

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Stewart
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 03:02 PM

Here's a version from thesession.org
Look in the comments section for different versions.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: quantock
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:34 PM

Wow - You fellow Mudcatters are great. Thank you so much for all the info on ABC software. That will help a lot.

Looks like I'll have to figure out how Bob Cann played The Primrose for myself. Once I've got the version I want to play, I'll put it into ABC and post it here so others can use it.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:39 PM

re Treewind's comments, I've just had a look (I tend not to remember these things) at the command line we use. It comes down to.

abc2abc inputfile -e -t semitones >outputfile;

-e turns off error reporting. (We do make other, ie. abcmps and amc2mid output messages available from the converter but not this progs output...)
-t transposes up t semitones if positive, down if negative.

There are other switches but I don't think I've used them.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:43 PM

I meant -t transposes the number given by semitones

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: treewind
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:34 AM

That's the one. My (mild) complaint is that unlike most command line filter programs,

(a) it breaks if you put the -t and -e switches in the wrong place (like before the input file)
(b) it doesn't allow a second file name for output, other than using the > symbol to redirect output.
(c) Error messages go to standard output, not stderr, so your output file contains the error message and you don't see it immediately on the screen.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 07:33 AM

I see, thanks.

Out of curiosity I've looked at the other commands we use in the converter. abc2midi takes output file (-o). All messages go to stdout (>msg.txt for me).

abcm2ps (which, as you know is not part of the abcmidi package) does send its error messages to stderr (2>msg.txt for me).

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM

A few comments on the ABC bits of this.

The problem I had with ABC Navigator was with key signatures. For a lot of ABC on the web, the signature may be in the form
K: E Dorian
with a space. ABC Navigator ignores everything after the space, so your tune is processed as if it were in E major. Since this way of writing key signatures ais standard ABC and has been in use for many years before ABC Navigator came on the scene, there was no excuse for it.

The ABC to Lilypond converter screws up in the same way. At least the people involved in that will respond and acknowledge that there's a problem, though they can't fix it just now. Write to the developer of ABC Navigator and you get no acknowledgement whatever. As far as I'm concerned, that attitude means a piece of software is dead.

MIDI conversion: both the converter sites mentioned here use abc2midi. This interprets dotted constructs (as in strathspeys) with a 2:1 time ratio. This is just plain wrong. The implementor thought it was a good idea for hornpipes (which it often is) but instead of making 3:1 the default and interpreting an
R: hornpipe
line to get 2:1, we get 2:1 for everything. Sounds bloody stupid for almost all music. This can be fixed, either by editing the source or by setting switches at runtime, but neither site does it.

Folkinfo's transposition service is both very hard to use and limited in its output. You have to specify the transposition by counting semitones. I just tried it, transposing something from F major to D major. How many semitones is that? Not being a guitarist, I DON'T HAVE A FRIGGIN CLUE, and had to count on my fingers. I could have transposed the music at sight on any of a dozen instruments, but none of them have frets. If you aren't a guitarist you don't think that way, you may well think "F is four fingers and a thumb, D is six fingers and a thumb" or something similarly instrument-specific in a different way. Instead, "source: F; target: D" is something everybody can understand. (Semitone counting also fails to distinguish between transposing to C sharp and to D flat - if you're doing it at all, the distinction will matter).

Also, what I wanted was transposed ABC source. Folkinfo gives you only a transposed MIDI or PDF score. Far better to offer *only* source-to-source transposition and let people re-enter the transposed source if they want something other than ABC - it only takes one more "copy, paste, push button" sequence to get it.

ABC2WIN: this program is a disaster. The implementor didn't bother keeping it up to date with improvements to the ABC spec even when it was payware. If it's now free, you are getting a *lot* less than you paid for. Even very basic ABC features like staff breaks, beaming and tempo are utterly fucked up. You can tell tunes that were entered with it because they all sound like funeral marches and display as a jumbled mess unless you spend a significant amopunt of time editing them.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: treewind
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:31 AM

Write to the developer of ABC Navigator and you get no acknowledgement whatever. As far as I'm concerned, that attitude means a piece of software is dead.
Have to agree with that. I'm still surprised about the key signature problem as I thought it used abcm2ps (unless abcm2ps has the same problem)

I don't have a problem calculating semitones for transposition, but I find myself fingering an imaginary piano keyboard as I count the semitones. Specifying the source and output keys (or even just the output key as long as the ABC source is clear about key) shouldn't be hard as the program already knows enough about keys to work it out. I wonder what key abc2abc generates if e.g. you transpose G down a semitone (F# or G flat: 6 sharps vs. 6 flats)

ABC2WIN: this program is a disaster.
Absolutely. It has ruined the standardization of ABC by being broken and widely used at the same time. You could be forgiven for thinking it was a Microsoft product...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:54 AM

Folkinfo does offer the choice of leaving the abc alone or replacing it with the transposed abc. This is achieved, believe it or not by checking or unchecking the replace abc checkbox.

I'm a bit mystified Jack finds counting semitones so difficult!!! He can loose me on far more complicated aspects of music such as modes without even trying. Still. I guess I can add something to make the counting easier and I can look into the possibility of a "to" if there really is a need.

I will look into the abc shorthand notation ($lt; $gt;). Currently the preference (yes abc2midi can work which way you want it) needs to be set in the abc (%%MIDI ratio n m) so we are not restricting either approach.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 09:02 AM

I assumed "replace ABC" meant I was being offered the chance to replace an archived copy of the tune on the site somewhere, so not wanting to overwrite somebody else's work, I didn't dare use it. "Display transposed ABC" would be clearer.

Virtually none of the strathspeys already on the web will have that %%MIDI line. Transcribers can't be expected to anticipate bizarre implementations like that when the standard says quite clearly that 3:1 is meant. (The default for abcmidi is 2:1, and does *not* need to be set - if you got a warning that you needed to set the ratio every time you used a broken-rhythm construct it wouldn't be quite so bad).

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 10:46 AM

OK. I've changed "replace" to "update".
I've added an option to choose ratios with 3:1 as default.

Will have a look at transpose another day.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 11:04 AM

Thing is, 3:1 is appropriate in far more tunes than 2:1, so it ought to be the default, if there is any default at all.

The issue isn't with "replace" vs "update" but with *what* was going to be replaced or updated - I assumed it was a file on the site, not the contents of a box on the screen. You need to be a bit more explicit about what your service is actually doing. (I'd assumed it retained every tune ever submitted to it somewhere, though I hadn't gone to look).

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Agreed with the choice of 3:1 as default. Must admit strathpeys can sound comical in 2:1.

I'll do that with the wording.

----
Files produced by the converter last a minimum of 15 minutes. The converter itself has a "tidy up" routine. I guess these days, I could use a cron job but that wasn't an option when we first had the converter and this way works for me.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 04:59 PM

That should fix all teh problems I can see.

BTW, would you like to host my modes tutorial? I can't update my own site any more, and the current version has quite a few changes from anything that's appeared on the web. You don't yet have a section on your site for informational files - maybe you should.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Dec 07 - 05:06 PM

I'd be glad to. I'm on my way out now... but I'll contact you via email tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

I've had a look through the transpose from (? K: is in the abc and possibly more than once) /to possibilities and it's going to be difficult and I'm not sure if/when we might have a go at it.

What I have done is added a javascript "calculator" at the bottom of the page which I hope will help a little.

The whole business of keys seems a little odd btw. abcm2ps seems to write D# as Eb and that's before trying to work out what abc2abc might do. Still I'd guess most works out OK for our folk purposes.

Subject: RE: Primrose Polka and ABC software
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:13 PM

One time you might want C# rather than Db is if you play a melodeon or diatonic accordion with a C# row (like a Shand Morino). I only play one piece in Db (a Thelonious Monk tune) but I imagine anyone playing the chords would be mightily baffled by having them named in sharp keys. So yes, you might want both for some enharmonic alternatives.