BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:14 AM

"as long as you are pretty rational about what "right" means"

That's the deal. What I'm talking about when I use that phrase is that so often we're so convinced we're "right" about matters that are personal preference, or are actually trivial that we get blinded and insist on "getting our way". That's rarely a path toward happiness. As I get older I'm more tempted to let the other guy get away with it. Lifes too short to get upset about the driver who cut you off in traffic so he could be "first".

For that matter - who cares if I think there is a God or not? Does it really matter what anyone thinks? What I think doesn't bother anyone. Now if I take some action resulting from those thoughts that harms you - that's something different alltogether.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:02 AM

I have always thought that the two were entirely mutually consistent, as long as you are pretty rational about what "right" means. Some folks gget pretty bent around obsessive rightness, but that's not the clear sense in which I would use the word). In a clearer sense, happiness is the quest toward more and more rightness. Of course, that involves lots of change....



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

It sounds like you've answered the old question - "Would you rather be right - or happy?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:22 AM

Once again, we have an anti-religion thread running full tilt at the very time of year many believers are heavily occupied with the observances particular to our community of belief.

I say this not as a complaint, but to point out that what usually happens in these seasons, with these threads, is that the believers sort of vanish from the discussion, as I am about to do....

Not because I've been out-argued (I wasn't arguing), or "proved" wrong (I'm not interested in being proved "right"), not because I'm upset (I'm having a LOVELY morning in fact), not because I don't have more to say (I might think I have a lot, but it's going into lovely, thought-abundant PMs now)...

.... but because joyous seasons take, and deserve, my time and full attention.

In other words, "Love ya! Gotta go!"

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:41 AM

Forgot to add, just off to celebrate Yuletide in the proper way as we have done for many years before it was usurped by an alien middle-eastern religion.

No god? Of course there is - you just have to search for your own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:32 AM

"...you're not in Yorkshire"

Am I not? Wow, must have been transported to a parallel universe.

Well, MTed, if that's you're argument, perhaps you should take it on board yourself; you're not in church, you're not at a revivalist meeting, so stop preaching - I don't spew my beliefs out at you, so please have the courtesy not to do it to me - I find it offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 01:59 PM

Me too Bill, I also thought of this thread when I read it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

Today's Doonesbury cartoon made me laugh

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:49 PM

theleveller--As Susan has pointed out, you're not in Yorkshire, you're not talking to your family. This is not a dockside pub in Hull on a Saturday night. When you're on Mudcat, you're not even in the UK any more.

Not to be critical of any of those places, but the sort of banter that is acceptable there conveys something different and, perhaps antithetical to what you intend, in the wider world.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:44 AM

RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (especially not Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:40 AM

theleveller,

I haven't told you what to believe in, and I haven't told you how to argue. I HAVE indicated that what you thought was free of insult didn't come across that way.

You had asked for an indication of what insult you had delivered. You've been answered. If you don't care that your communication comes across very differently than the way you intend it, that's on you.

If you have the expectation that people can and should read your mind to know and appreciate where you are fromm, how you joke at home, and what you mean-- that's not an expectaton likely to be fulfilled.

I'm sorry for whatever [bad behavior] has been your experience with believers. If you'll look back at my recent posts in this thread, you'll note that not all of us are looking to perpetuate whatever that experience was.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:33 AM

"You reference harmless repartee common in your circle"

Harmless? The word I used was 'robust'. First you're trying to tell me what I should believe in, now you're telling me how I should conduct my argument. Talk about arrogance!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:27 AM

The Devil you say!

This is post 666, a numerological reference to Nero from the Greek.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:23 AM

Spent time with a family that used French, Italian, English and Spanish. Supper was fun.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:16 AM

Around where I live (eastern Ontario) many people are bilingual and more often than not switch back and forth between English and French not only in the same conversation but in the same sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

If I wanted to insult you, you'd know about it.

How wonderful life would be if what we INTEND always came across instead of what we actually SAY.

You reference harmless repartee common in your circle-- you're not in that circle now.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Mrr at work
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 08:51 AM

Yes, Amos. Being usually in one language turns the other language OFF. Fascinating.
Is that 666?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:58 AM

The big question is...

WHO'S GOING TO POST 666?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:50 AM

Whoops. 'Throne' should, of course, read 'thrown'. Must get me good glasses out.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: theleveller
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:41 AM

Dear, oh dear, oh dear, MTed, if you think that's an insult you really are clutching at straws. If I wanted to insult you, you'd know about it. 'You godsquad people' is how we talk to the members of our family who are of a religious persuasion. They counter with, 'well you're the devil's disciples'. All taken in good part.

You obviously don't understand my robust repatree. That's how we talk here in Yorkshire - where we call a spade a bloody shovel. My adversarial style was gained in the dockland pubs of Hull on a Saturday night - together with the scars on my knuckles. I think you and Susan need to get out more into the real world. Just think of it as the modern equivalent of being throne to the lions - but remember the story of St Jerome.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:51 PM

That's really interesting, Mrz. Do you mean that because they were accustomed to one at a time, they couldn't track the melange patois you used with your sisters? Meaning they had to have the structure of "one language per conversation" and couldn't leave both languaes uninhibited at once?

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:37 PM

When I say "stimulus" I mean a lot more than a "flash of light" - Amos, to get back to where I was before my Internet went away.

For instance, there are bilinguals who can use either language in any situation, and others who get used to communicating in one language at a time (because they live or work or otherwise have daily interactions with people who don't or won't speak the other). With a computer and reaction-time I was able to show that this common usage of one language per conversation works by inhibiting the other, unused/unusable language, not by activating the language that is actually chosen.

It was cool stuff and explained why, growing up in both English and French which my family mixed freely, I had friends who were perfectly fluent in French at school and in English at home, but who couldn't follow my conversations with my sisters.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:06 PM

PMs on the way shortly, as soon as I can get some stuff I have to do finished here (hopefully tonight)!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:38 PM

Good by me, Susan.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:36 PM

I asked for that PM too, Peace, so get in line! I'm still waiting for mine.

When we write about those things in the threads-- I've done it myself-- unfortunately it opens up a whole 'nother round of battles. Sad, but true. So let's not this time!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

Funny. I usually have little time for people who go out of their way to tell me about their version of God, etc. However, I would be honoured if you'd relate the 'thing', the 'revelation' you had and what brought it home to you, either on the thread or by message.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:30 PM

Thanks, Peace

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Well, Nickhere, that's good enough for this ol' boy. I am glad for you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:25 PM

I agree, literally! That's part of the problem. You can produce whatever evidence you have and people can find a way to dismiss most of it without leaving you any clearer what would be acceptable to them.

What I can say is this - I've met Him and He's transformed my life, and I'm very grateful for that. I don't know if that'll do for Ed, but he's welcome to ask me anything he wants about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

Lord knows; I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

What kind of proof is Ed looking for?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:18 PM

Yeah.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:17 PM

Peace "So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?"

You asking me?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

Frank "....factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be democracy and a violation of Church and State"

Governments in my corner of the world are full of them (agnsotics and atheists), that's the way democracy works, people vote for what they like (or perhaps politicians' religion is not an issue here when canvassing for votes; I've seen VERY few politicans here standing ona religious platform). One EU commissioner was forced out of office a few years ago on account of his religious views (despite his promises to vote in a secular way or abstain). He was replaced with someone felt to be more secular.

"I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)"

Maybe you didn't like his Narnia books, fair enough. 'The Screwtape Letters' I thought was excellent. Have you tried that one?
As fort the pipe.....well, in those days they didn't think smoking was such an awful thing. We know better now!

Thanks for the tone of your reply though, Frank, I appreciate your candour.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:15 PM

'Subject: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Ed. - PM
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 05:22 PM

I'm terribly sorry to have to break this to you, and the fact that you make up a fairly large proportion of the world's population makes it hard, but I have a duty to tell the truth.

Deep breath... God does not exist

If anyone can give me decent evidence as to why I'm wrong, I'd like to here it, along with something more substantial than "mysterious ways"'

So, uh, ya gonna answer this or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Susan "You may not have meant to speak in preaching terms, but when you said this: Bill D.... you have to let go of intellectual prejudice ... and have faith...., you tried to tell a good friend of mine what to do, who had not asked you what to do, whose heart is probably NOT being prepared by the Holy Spirit at this time to hear what you think he needs to hear"

All I can do is offer my apologies to Bill D (apologies, Bill :-) ) if he thought that's what I meant. I was using the 'you' in a general sense, more like the pronoun 'one'. I was thinking more about myself really, but also other people I've known and met (not mudactters) whose 'rationality' has proved a stumbling block to knowing God. Not because God is irrational but because the rationality in vogue today is the product of 18th cent enlightenment that rejects God as lacking empirical earthly basis.

My post above was an attempt to explain something that's very hard to articulate. I was in a church today and a metaphor came to me: I am very interested in architecture and history so I often visit historical buildings. If one goes into any typical renaissance cathedral in Italy one will find a whole smorgasbord of icons, paintings, sculptures and motifs. Most people will probably recognise Christ on the cross, but who is that woman in the painting and why is she holding a wheel? And that guy full of arrows looking sorrowfully into space? And what weird thing is this: four animals clustered around a big stone table - a cow, a lion, something else.... what a weird thing this religion is! One finds oneself surrounded by nice antiques but as obscure as hieroglyphs. One's appreciation of them will probably be artistic (intellectual) but one doesn't connect with them emotionally or on other levels.

But if one comes from a Christian background, and depending on how much one has studied that, one'll recognise the woman with the wheel as St.Catherine and be familiar with how she was executed on that wheel for not renouncing her beliefs, the man full of arrows as St.Sebastian, the four animals as symbols for the writers of the Gosepls. The Cathedral suddenly becoms an open book, alive with meaning it doesn't have if one is not 'tuned' to see it. For me, religion and faith are in some way similar. If one is not tuned to it, one doesn't see the evidence, the meaning or significance of things. It can appear like so much mumbo-jumbo and mindless behaviour. I willingly admit this may not be everyone's experience, but I've been on 'both sides of the fence' and can at least refer to my own experience.

I do apologise if I came across as preaching. That wasn't my intention and I'll have to be more careful if that's how I come across. I suppose I have heard the arguments put about scientific proof, evidence etc., many times and wanted to say 'if that's not working for you, try looking at the picture another way. I can't guarantee you'll see something that makes sense (that's not up to me) but it may be worth a try'

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:35 PM

Frank - I've also read Ehrmans "Misquoting Jesus" and found it very interesting. I was amazed to find that the transcribers of the books of the bible had to contents with manuscripts that were often written using no capital letters, spaces or punctuation. itwouldbeverymuchliketryingtoreadsomethingwritteninthismanneritwouldbeverydifficulttounderstandtosaytheleastwouldtyouagreeornotidoubthtaticouldmakeheadsortalesofwhatwasbeingsaidmistranslationswouldbeveryeasytomake

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

Nickhere,

You said: "But if I dare say it, those of you demanding some rational, scientific proof are being a tad un-scientific in your approach. A scientist does not start out on the premise that something does not exist and 'rationalise' away all evidence s/he finds, when those rationalisations are really suppositions (how do we know it IS a mass hallucination/ schizophrenia/ conjuror's tricks and not something else? We don't!) with no evidence to back them up. A scientist sets out with an OPEN mind on the theory to gather what evidence he can, make the observations and do the experiments."

I maintain that are quite a few non-believers who will keep an open mind and when the experiments yield verifiable evidence, they might change their minds. That hasn't happened yet.

You also say: "1)       the Bible contains most of what believers claim about God and Jesus. There are good sound arguments to accept it as an accurate record and account especially the particular area that concerns this thread, that on the nature of Jesus. The four gospels couldn't be more clearly written (I recommend the New International Version if you find all those Thees and Thous off-putting). "

There are also good reasons to not accept it as being an accurate record. The four gospels are not clearly written and they were not written by the four names attached to them. I recommend you read Bart Ehrman's account on his studies of the bible.
"Misquoting Jesus" (I think that's one title) that is worth reading. The bible has been rewritten countless times and changed radically. First it was written down by scribes who didn't know how to read what they were writing. Not many could read in those days.
Then it was rewritten by clerics with a definite agenda. There are so many radical inconsistencies in the current bible that it would take intensive scholarship to sort them all out. Bart Ehrman has done this.

You say: "If what St.Augustine said wasn't true, I doubt so many posts would be made about something many people say doesn't even exist. Would we bother posting and posting about Santa Claus? "

It becomes quite clear early to most school children that Santa doesn't exist and yet his
mythology continues. Posts are made protesting the use of religion as some kind of
factual data that is used to elect politicians. I have to remind you that atheists and agnostics never make it to public office which is an indictment of what is supposed to be
democracy and a violation of Church and State. Meme (ideas that model genetic replication) can in fact be historical and be perpetuated without their being factual or true.
Ideas about systems of political theory still prevail in spite that many of them such as Nazism or Totalitariansim are no longer useful to society. Just because these ideas are prevalent and handed down from generation to generation does not make them somehow more useful.

I have been exposed to some of CS Lewis and I must say that I am more impressed with
Philip Pullman's "Golden Compass" than I am with tales of Narnia. (I really had a personal
problem with Lewis when I saw his PBS special and he was puffing on a pipe throughout.)

You are welcome to your views and even though I don't share them, I can respect you as a person and answer your assertions not with malice or condemnation but in a spirit of exploration. I think that science can shed a lot of light on this issue if we don't dismiss it
as being outside the area of inquiry.

Respectfully,

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:17 PM

WHat is the MATTER with you people?



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:04 PM

Don - Because all y'all expect it of us. And we hate to disappoint.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 04:03 PM

Peace ..

"We do tend to find things in the last place we look for them.

Have a good X-mas season, y'all."



Those are the exact words Otis told me after he found my wallet.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:54 PM

But Wesley, why do you people always say that to those people?    ;-)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:50 PM

Well, I shoulda knowed better than to get my feet damp in one of these threads again. The temptation to both explain about logic & reason AND to ask that preaching not be done here sometimes overwhelms me. So I should not be surprised at what I get back....more preaching and more circular, convoluted explanations about how seemingly bad logic is not really bad ....if I just "open my heart and accept" the premises it is based on.

I can't say I wasn't aware of how it would go....but I can say I'm always disappointed.

At least I give in less often than I used to.

(And Peace...I DO love that parking place story! It says more about 'us' than most huge books do.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:46 PM

Susan - You people always say that:}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:41 PM

Amen! I don't know ANYone who is part of ANY group, who likes to be called "you people."

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Like this,--"must be some sort of brainwashing that you godsquad people get."

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:14 PM

Either one believes him, and does not look where others tell you to, or one does not believe him, and does not look where others tell you to.

But the act of following ANOTHER to Jesus is clearly against his own words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:42 PM

The Son of Man?

Odd sort of confession, off hand. But I like the style. Thanks, BB.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:33 PM

Perhaps one should look at Jesus's own words on the subject ( at least according to the Bible:

Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.

Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.

Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:22 PM

Proving to someone that God exists is not possible as it is only by 'experiencing' Gods power that we can truly come to know Him.
You may already be thinking that I have made a bold statement there but I make it from my personal experience and would invite you to take a look at my website which I set up some years ago and occasionally update. It tells of how I came to the place I am at now in "Mikes Testimony" and how I had a healing in "Mikes Healing".
I am putting a link to the main page but if you wish to look at those two items, please click on each at the left of the mainpage.
It is just one persons experience and cannot be proved conclusively but at least it may help some people understand my position. You can also view my ugly mug!
We all have choices! Or do we?
My website should you choose to look
Best wishes, Mike.