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BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:28 PM You shouldn't have signed your name, Rapaire -- it was supposed to be eponymous. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Donuel Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM aaaaaaaaaa death to infidel teddy bears. aaaayaaaayaaaa yaaaa asalamalakem |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM If Winona Ryder had Terry Gross's voice, there would be a God----and I would start praying to her! I know you Ryder, you gonna miss me when I'm gone... You gonna miss your lovin' baby from rollin' in your arms! I still feel that all religions are wishful thinking---! But that's just me. You all are cool as all hell---no matter what you believe. "You can be in my dream, if I can be in yours!?!?"---Bobby D. Love, Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: George Papavgeris Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:22 AM "Sorry, Bobert, but no-one can prove a negative" Sorry, Shimrod, that statement is incorrect. One can prove one did not commit a crime, with a good alibi. One can prove the absence of oxygen when a lit match goes out. One can prove many negatives. The burden of proof lies still with the one who made the original assertion - and that's all it is, an assertion, if not a taunt. Just because a blind man recognises no shapes, it does not mean that they do not exist. Nothing is self-evident. Indeed those who believe in self-evident truths, are the ones denying logic a chance. Now, apply this to the opening thread. Though Peace said it much more succinctly with his point 3 above. Some people have far too much time in their hands, or are letting life pass them by. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:47 AM "a blind man recognises no shapes" Now THAT is NOT true, but I will admit that a group of blind men will give conflicting reports on an elephant... |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: akenaton Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:09 AM If people feel the need to worship something, then I suppose the thing which gives life to every living organism on earth would fit the bill. To worship the sun, seems much more sensible than some figment of our imagination. Some father figure, who has been moulded to reinforce all our human insecurities for the benefit of "organised religion"....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Slag Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:24 AM That certainly is a "faith" statement, Guest (Ghost?)! Get a grip. God told me that "the fool has said in his heart 'there is no God'". He also said that a person's ways always seem right to himself but it always leads to his or her destruction. Once you establish a name (no fear, no shame)come again and ask the same. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Justaguy Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:36 AM I think the answer to Guest, Ed should have been a simple "okay". Could have stopped this thread in it's tracks or perhaps driven Guest,Ed completely over the edge. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: skarpi Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:47 AM O dear , here we go again . Dear Ed , start looking , you´ll be surprised what you will discover . you will find , what is called God very near you , you just have to look for it . it does not matter , if its , christian , Islam, Budda , we all have to look and find . and when you find it , what you are looking for , then tell us what is there . I know where to find it , but you ´ll have to find it your self noone can do it for you . All the best Skarpi Iceland |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM Hey, yeah....besides, consider this: there are MANY Gods in this society. They're all over the place. One's God is whatever one has the most faith in, and to whom one gives one's unquestioning allegiance! So...here are some of the ruling Gods of this society: 1. Money! 2. Sex! 3. Good looks! 4. Fame! 5. Doctors! (That white suit somehow confers an aura of omnipotence and omniscience to so many people.) 6. Science! (If the scientific community says its true, it MUST be true...right? And if they say it's good for you, it MUST be good for you, right? Ummm...well...check again in a few decades...cos they may have changed their minds.) 7. the President! (If you like his party and policies...if not, you may think he's not God at all, but the Devil incarnate.) I submit that most of the above rank higher in the estimation and daily attention of the average American than the God of religion...specially # 1 Money. Money is the ruling God of society, and it's a totally made-up thing that people invented. It's worth only what they all agree to pretend it's worth. It's a fiction masquerading as a daily necessity. It's real in effect, but not real in itself. MONEY is the God that rules your life, Ed. It's a false God. Do something about that. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM LH, my friend, I think that is the smartest, most succinct post I've ever seen from you. That was a VERY DAMN-FINE JOB! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:57 AM [I ACCIDENTALLY HIT SUBMIT BUTTON] Besides, LH, your post opens the question to: When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves? THERE's the thorny topic we usually dance around, here-- have done so for years myself, without taking that aspect of it apart. It's a mad dance! [applying Rap-sword] There. Split to flinders. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:02 AM Thanks, Susan. ;-) It's been on my mind for years, observing people as they go about their daily worship, quite unaware of the nature of the God(s) they really believe in. That is exactly why in the Bible (and in many other holy books from numerous other religions) it says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". They may not say it in exactly the same words, but they all say it, and they have very good reason for doing so. There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods": Country! (patriotism) - A God that has been used as the prime motivator for countless wars and other organized efforts of humanity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:06 AM I commend you, Susan, for resurrecting the fine old word "flinders". It is a noble term, and served well for centuries, and should be allowed to fade from disuse. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods": Another one: "winning"-- that competitive thing. "Controlling" would be another. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Stu Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM He certainly does exist - his name is Martin O'Neill and he's going to get the Villa into Europe next season. Back of the net! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM ETYMOLOGY: Middle English flendris, possibly of Scandinavian origin; akin to Norwegian flindra, splinter. I submit that you are not discussing Gods, but only flinders of Gods! :D Or perhaps the icons of aggregate sin. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Rasener Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:19 AM Hey Stigweard you almost spoiled my post. I have only one God and that is Aston Villa. I have followed them through thick and thin, without question, even when times were bad. Martin O'Neill is a disciple. The eleven players are the bread of life and the fishes are the clean shirts hanging out ready for the next match. The crowd are the followers. You religious people can think what you like but you are so far off beam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Dave the Gnome Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM The "burden of proof" still lies with the theist. Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory. Still waiting, Ed. D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:45 AM Susan, YES, that IS actually what religions are mostly about. Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas. All those "laws" in the bible. What better way to rule over wandering people in the desert---or in the chaos of the modern world, for that matter. Extrapolate to modern Jehovah's Witnesses who literally believe every word in the "book" (not "Rise Up Singing") to be true utterances of the divine that MUST be obeyed -- as interpreted by them---the willing SLAVES. Pretty sad! Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:16 PM Art, them's fighting words, my friend. (My husband and I are in the ministry, and we know many other in the ministry who are not at all about what you described.) So heads-up! :~) I proposed controlling people as a societal pattern, not a merely religious one. The desire to control transcends religion. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Shimrod Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:38 PM "Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory." In this case, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to accept that. After all modern science seems to provide a better (if necessarily incomplete) picture of how the world works than religion ever did - and with far fewer logical inconsistencies. Nevertheless, as the bases for their 'fairy tales' crumble away, some religious people seem to be becoming more and more militant: demanding that we accept and respect their various faiths without question and even demanding that we all live by them. Some of these people even goes as far murdering people in order to impose their dogmas (eg. Oklahoma City, 9/11, Madrid, the London Tube bombings etc.). The initiator of this thread has been called a "troll" - and maybe he is - but he raises questions which are worth asking - especially in the context of the modern world. Let's put it this way: if you've got deeply held religious beliefs then fine - I hope that they make you happy and that you find solace in them. But if you try to impose them on me, or demand that I live by them, then you're going to have to convince me that those beliefs have some basis in fact - otherwise you're going to have a fight on your hands! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: number 6 Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:08 PM Actually this is an interesting thread by Guest Eddy. Good points raised (exception being Wynona Horowitz) A good read if anyone is interested is (if I may suggest) "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Georgiansilver Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:11 PM Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:49 PM Re: Burden of Proof This is a debating term, right, a specific forensics obligation? Some people posting in this sort of thread prefer debate according to whatever debating conventions they learned, usually in college I gather. Others prefer humor. Others prefer exploration. Others sharpen old saws. (Art T. plays his musically.) Some are displaying old hurts and resentments. That's just the nature of Mudcat threads-- here there are no "facilitators" guiding dicussions that, IRL, a facilitator might conduct with ground rules agreed among the participants in advance. We can REFER to rules here but there actually aren't very many and people are not usually all following the same rulebook. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:25 PM "Controlling" and "winning" are definitely big ones on the list, Susan. Good of you to note that. Art, "Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas" also applies to the activities of all political organizations, military organizations, police forces, unions, political states, political parties, professional organizations, and even many (if not most) of the common social clubs. They (virtually) ALL seek to control their membership through a set of rules and dogmas. And they concoct the most wonderful sounding reasons and justifications for doing it too, but it's mostly about control... ;-) The fact that people also do that in organized religion only shows that it is a nasty tendency which tends to creep into ALL organized forms of hierarchical human activity. It is not seen exclusively in religion, then, but in every field of collectively organized human endeavour...and it is the bane of free thinkers in every field as well. Every power structure is lorded over by its leaders and their underlings who are appointed as controllers over the general membership. Only if their own character (leaders and underlings) is impeccable, and their ideals likewise, and their judgement excellent, will they avoid the abuses commonly involved in controlling other people. You can use your power to do good or evil when you have authority over others. You can enforce rules wisely or foolishly. This is as true in religious organizations as it is in any other organizations. Therefore, I see no reason to single out religion for damnation while ignoring the rest of the very similar BS that goes on in our lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Slag Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:52 PM God, this was such an easy button for the TROLL to push. To bad this didn't occur on another thread. Nonetheless (said the Fool), Yes LH. One of the great theologians of the last century, Paul Tillich said (paraphrasticly) that what a man esteems highest in his heart is his god, and you drove that nail all the way in. Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake! |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM Heh! Well, Slag, troll or not, he inadvertently opened the door to a chance to talk about some interesting stuff here. My God in the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades was a girl named Pam Ford. Hard to believe now, but she was. She was that which I esteemed highest in my heart. I did a search for her name not long ago on the Net, just out of curiosity, and all it came up with was a list of names of all the students in my graduating class in '66. Not a single other trace of Pam on the entire internet. Of course, I rather doubt her last name is Ford now...she was eminently marriageable, being the most popular girl in the entire class. I kid you not, she was. She was a cheerleader too. I bet she was married by 25, if not sooner. She now probably has grandchildren and is living in a split level bungalow with some guy I couldn't stand back then...and I have been saved, by the grace of God, from being that guy! ;-) It wouldn't have worked out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:45 PM Well, spiritual freedom and personal sovereignty are precious commodities, I am sure; and those who corrupt them directly with fatuous falsehoods, or bizarre diatortions of importance, and so on, are the most to be instinctively shunned. This includes television advertisers, drug companies, and SOME religious "spokespersons", depending on their nature and bent. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,GOD Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:04 PM YES THERE ARE |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Bill D Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM Oh, Hi there, God! Nice of you to drop in. I have a few questions about some technical details if you have a few |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: GUEST,Frogprince Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:14 PM "I have been saved, by the grace of God" Sometime back a contributor who was either an unrelenting troll or had mental problems insisted that Little Hawk is actually a fundamentalist Christian. I thought he was wrong; but there, ladies and gentlemen, is the quote from the Hawk that proves him right... "Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake!" Slag, if you really think that response to Art was appropriate, I submit that you've taken what Art said out of the whole context of his whole life and being as completely as I just took Little Hawk's words out of context. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM Bill D has asked for it, God. Give Bill him the works! I suggest a visit by some Angels or a little thunderbolt. Maybe a burning bush on his front lawn. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Donuel Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:40 PM Hey I was visited by a thunderbolt less than 2 years ago. I don't reccomend it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: George Papavgeris Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM Shimrod, I don't know if you were being specific with the use of "you", or generalising, but in any case, I don't think I have tried to push anything on you, either belief in a system or the opposite. In fact, I have made no reference to my own view on the matter, or to yours. All I am concerned about is GUEST, Ed's manner of stating boldly "this is so - if you don't like it, prove the opposite", in which the opening post was couched, without providing any evidence to back the statement. If the post had said "ADS/autism/etc etc does not exist; if you believe different, prove it", would one have reacted differently, and if so, why? Not only that, but a number of people would - rightly - have been offended. This was no different. Don't be surprised then if some people were offended in this case, and others simply find it a silly question. Challenging anyone's religious belief's, especially uninvited, IMHO is but a first step on a road that leads to jihad and the like. A bit of sensitivity goes a long way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Donuel Date: 01 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM Autism does not exist! that is ...without a human to claim that it exists, along with the definitions and tests of autism provided by the human. ergo...God/s don't exist without...etc. But I understood the first time around that being asked to prove a negative is a trollish exercise in passionate futility. _______________________________________________________________ Mistaking a people with vastly superior technology as Gods is a grand mistake right up there with "never wage a land war in Asia". but we are likely to make it again and again. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Rapparee Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM I am having a terrible time NOT starting a thread called "There aren't any Dogs." |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM Oh, DO! LOL! And add in brackets (not even Lassie). |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Dec 07 - 06:48 PM "The desire to control transcends religion." Ah - gotta challenge - doesn't religion claim to transcend everything we do? But of course if religion is something man made up to control others... :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 08:52 PM God DID send an angel to Bill, and Bill promptly made friends with her. Bill's like that. :~) (hi Bill) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: John on the Sunset Coast Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:19 PM Rapaire--you could start a thread, 'The Dogs of God." We could all then discuss that book.. Yes, that is an authentic title. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Bert Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:45 PM Oh nice one ~Susan. Bill can't argue with that 'cos we've met her. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Dec 07 - 09:47 PM No, religion doesn't claim to transcend everything we do...it claims to be about something that transcends everything we do. ;-) The large picture, in other words. Example: In a game, like chess, you make a lot of moves and a lot of thinking, those are the things you DO when playing chess....but surely the original mind(s) that conceived of and created the game of chess itself, not to mention all the other games and the whole rest of life outside of the game of chess, transcend(s) what you do within the mere limits of any one game, correct? Our lives are brief and limited, quite petty in relation to the larger existence all around us. That larger existence transcends the events of our lives. Religion is about relating to that larger existence. It may or may not posit a "God". It may simply posit a transcendent reality rather than a personalized, human-like God. It is one way in which people attempt to explain what they can never fully grasp...the infinity of existence itself, and the apparent endlessness of time and space. Philosophy is another way we try to grasp the transcendent. Meditation is another way. The more advanced religions contain a great deal of philosophy AND meditation (or contemplation), and that's what gives them merit...not a bunch of silly little petty cultural rules about what to eat on Friday or how long to wear your hair or how many people you should marry or whether or not you should eat pork or how many times you need to pray in one day or what you shouldn't name a Teddy bear. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Art Thieme Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:28 PM Christians should've come down on me hard and demanded my execution when I glued a 4-inch tall metal Tyrannosaurus Rex to the dashboard of our Volkswagen bus back in '67. I named it Sister Mary Godzilla and It protected us and that car for quite a while. ;-) Art |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: wysiwyg Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:36 PM Bert, my Bert-- I ALWAYS get my man. Theyr'e lucky I give thought to what I'm gonna DO with them, but I always get 'em. :~) ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM Nope. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Don Firth Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:35 PM I believe Little Hawk has the right of it. In the meantime— Norman was quite devout. He wanted to spend his life doing God's will. But he didn't know what God's will was. So he waited for God to show him a Sign. From his late teens to his middle forties, he sat out on his back porch and watched the sky. Then one summer night, a meteor came hurtled down and landed about two hundred yards from his back porch, struck the ground with a horrendous explosion, shattered all the windows in the back of the house, and blew Norman right through the screen door and into his kitchen. When he regained consciousness, he went out and discovered that the meteor had dug a two-hundred foot crater. It was still glowing dully, and emiting smoke and steam. Poor Norman is in a quandary. The Sign was certainly quite emphatic, but he can't quite interpret it. He still doesn't know what God wants him to do with his life. But he figures it must be something pretty important. He still sits on his back porch, wrinkling his brow and scratching his head. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Slag Date: 02 Dec 07 - 02:28 AM Guest (Dean?): I'm sure Art took it in the vein, in which I intended to deliver it, i.e., tongue-in-cheek! Intent, 95% humor, 4 and 3/4% sarcasm,.00025% mixed fractions. Point being an unsubstantiated baseless opinion started this thread and such a gutless remark doesn't deserve serious consideration. Other threads of similar topic and a much more sober treatment have graced the Cat and are available for any and all to see, provided the haven't been censored. |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: skarpi Date: 02 Dec 07 - 06:02 AM So guest ed , have you found it ?? you wont find it in here , that I can tell you . all the best Skarpi |
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Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus) From: Amos Date: 02 Dec 07 - 08:29 AM Skarpi is deeply correct. As ye seek... so shall ye find. A |
