(WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Les from Hull
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 11:51 AM

I think that the explanations might take longer than the song, Steve.

From the composition of the escort it seems that the major threat to the convoy was expected to come from U-boats. The anti-aircraft and anti-surface force capabilities were quite limited.

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Charley Noble
Date: 08 Nov 09 - 12:09 PM

Les-

I really think you've made a good faith effort to clarify what happened to CW-9, and I will convey that information to Neil Downey who initiated this thread seeking such clarification. Given that no one has recorded this ballad, there would seem ample time to make wording changes that more accurately describe what happened. However, I'm not suggesting that portions of the song that deal with "judgment" would be modified; that's up to Neil and his friend Buzz who originally composed the song.

With regard to judgment, I'm still puzzling over why CW-9 was sent out given the disastrous experience of CW-8 which you summarized above:

"The convoy CW-8 (25/26 July) had 21 ships, and lost 5 to the Luftwaffe on 25 July and another 3 to the E boats S19, S20 and S27 off Brighton during the night"

Furthermore there didn't seem to be any modification of tactics on the part of the British from CW-8 to CW-9, only on the part of the Germans to mount a more effective attack.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: GUEST,Andy Saunders
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 12:48 AM

I was astonished to come across this thread!

I have been involved with the BBC who, in the summer, are showing three documentaries (BBC1) on the Battle of Britain. One will feature Convoy CW9 "PEEWIT" and we dived on one of her wrecks for the film. Currently, I am completing a book "Convoy Peewit" which covers the story - you will find it by searching on Amazon.

I would love to use the words of your song, Charley, in my book. Perhaps you would contact me?

Andy Saunders    ([e-mail])

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 07:39 AM

Andy-

It's not my song but the one my good friend Neil Downey worked up from one originally composed by his friend Buzz. I will forward your inquiry to Neil with your contact info.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Santa
Date: 01 Feb 10 - 02:12 PM

I think we tend to forget nowadays just how much the country relied upon coal. Not just to keep the home fires burning, but to run the factories and power stations and the furnaces. A ship can and did carry much more than a train: the railways were already working at full stretch, as books on the wartime activities will tell you.

What makes me feel uncomfortable about this song is that it totally ignores the real need to get that coal through. It sets up an establishment straw man to be sneered at and hated. It is not entertainment but propaganda, relying on omission and untruth (or at least exaggeration) to make a political point. I don't think it's a true offering of respect to the sailors at all.

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:08 AM

Andy
I have emailed with details of a recording I have of Barry Finn and Dan Schatz singing the CW-9 song at Scarborough Seafest last year.
Ross

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 09:54 AM

From 'Naval Warfare in the English Channel 1939-1945' by Peter C Smith (Pen and Sword Maritime 2007)

The Battle for CW9:

CE8 got through with no losses and no opposition. It looked good for the return convoy, CW9, which assembled off Southend on 6 August. At the time it was not known that the Germans had carefully plotted the progress of the eastbound convoy for the whole of its tedious passage and drew up their plans accordingly. Night was really no protection from the all-seeing eye of Freya.

The first intelligence that the British got relating to the Freya radar system was brought to the UK by a young Danish Naval Flight Lieutenant Thomas Sneum, who, at great risk to his life, photographed radar installations on the Danish island of Fanø in 1941 and then escaped to Britain in a derelict de Havilland Hornet that he and a friend secretly repaired. The escapade was used by the author Ken Follet in his book Hornet Flight.

Not knowing about Freya would mean that on two occasions the British could only assume that the Germans had got lucky. After CW-9 I believe that channel convoys were stopped. To attempt to lay blame for what happened on the Admiralty and infer that it was done purely as a matter of pride to portray a non-existent callousness is grossly unfair and insulting, especially as both the song and the music were written in retrospect by people who were never there. Songs written at the time by people who were there are one thing, but if you are writing about an event retrospectively and you have all the information at your finger tips, you have a duty to at least get it right. If you cannot do that then you shouldn't bother as you are only doing a disservice to the subject, the memory of the people concerned and to history.

Both Allied and Axis sides went to great lengths to mask the technological and scientific break-throughs that gave them any sort of "edge". One well known example being the RAF's early airborne interception radar sets: The success of night fighter pilots was reportedly put down to diet and the old-wives tales about carrots being good for night vision - most successful of those pilots with 20 victories credited to him was John Cunningham,nick-named "Cats Eyes" Cunningham, who survivied the war and became de Havillands Chief Test pilot.

Subject: RE: (WWII) CW-9 names of ships for a song
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 10:37 AM

Terribus-

I'm still puzzling over CE8's experience which you describe today as having gotten "trough with no losses and no opposition."

Les described CW8 convoy (the other convoy leg) as follows:

"The convoy CW-8 (25/26 July) had 21 ships, and lost 5 to the Luftwaffe on 25 July and another 3 to the E boats S19, S20 and S27 off Brighton during the night"

You appear to be ignoring the CW8 experience or at best selecting facts which reinforce your personal point of view, or Les is incorrect in what he posted. Would you care to respond?

Charley Noble