BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:22 PM

If that is what you sincerely believe CarolC what are you doing about returning the US to the idigenous Americans? What are you doing about granting their right of return to their lands? Little, or nothing, I would suspect.

Teribus, your profound lack of ability to intelligently reason quite takes my breath away. The indegenous Americans can live wherever they want in this country. They don't need me to do anything to grant them the right to return to their lands, because they already have this right. What do you actually keep inside that head of yours instead of brains, anyway?

You really are too stupid for me to argue with. I've had enough.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Feb 08 - 10:37 PM

They don't allow for the Israelis to live peacefully in any place. They make it difficult and sometimes impossible for Jews to remain living.

This is bullshit. I've already shown you (and the fact of their existence is not subjective and can be proven) that there are Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians. The reason they are accepted there is because they aren't living there as occupiers. Any Jews could live anywhere at all in both Israel and Palestine in peace if they would simply remove their jackboots off the necks of the non-Jewish indigenous people. If you've got your boot on my neck, I'm going to do everything I can to try to persuade you to remove it. This includes causing you to experience pain. I expect that the Palestinians feel the same way.

When the Palestinians cease to commit acfts of war against Israel, they will have peace. Until then, they will receive, for their attacks on Israeli and Arab civilians, TARGETED attacks on those who are attacking Israel, and on those who are supporting them.

They have a right to fight for their freedom from occupation. When the occupation ends, there will be peace. You cannot expect peace when you are brutally enslaving an entire people, and ethnically cleansing them from their place of origin.

The Palestinans have stated their goal is the elimination of Israel aned the Jews.

They have NEVER stated that they wish to eliminate "the Jews". Some Palestinians (hardly all of them) have stated the desire to remove the European colonialist Jews from their country. But, first of all, you cannot hold all Palestinians responsible for what some Palestinians have said, and secondly, many, many Jews have said that they want all Arabs removed from Israel and Palestine. If you can hold all Palestinians responsible for what some of them have said, that means we can hold all Jews responsible for what some Jews have said. Is that really what you want?

You have a very racist view of Arabs and Palestinians, beardedbruce. You treat them like they are some kind of hive collective rather than individual human beings. If I were to do the same thing in reference to Jews, I would be called and anti-Semite, and quite rightly so.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:01 AM

"The conflict began in a similar fashion to the conflicts between indigenous Americans and the Europeans who were taking over their land. The Palestinians being in the same position as the indigenous Americans, and the European Jews being in the same position as the Europeans who invaded the Americas. No one had a right to come to either place with the intent of taking it over, and that was the original act of aggression." - CarolC

You did state what is quoted above didn't you? It was you who drew the parallel between the European influx, domination and occupation of North American to the arrival of European Jews to Palestine.

Now in one case where it applies to your own personal situation, you are quite happy about dispossessing entire nations and driving them from their ancestral lands, forcing them to live on reservations and condemning those people to a culture of social dependency. Oh yes CarolC a native North American can live anywhere he wants in the US provided he has the wherewithal to do so - How much back-rent is he owed? Must amount to quite a tidy sum back-dated over the last 150 years or so. Are you campaigning for their right to return to the lands that they were driven from? Are you campaigning for their title to that land as its dispossessed owners?

In the other case, where it relates to European Jews settling in Palestine let's see what you demand that the Jews do. You demand that all refugees and their descendants must be allowed to return to claim the land and property that they fled when their leaders elected to wage war. In the event that any do not wish to return you want the Israelis to pay them compensation.

But their case is slightly different isn't it CarolC. For a start the Jews did not arrive enmasse in Palestine and drive people off their land. They arrived in small groups and purchased land that the owners of that land were quite willing to sell because they thought it useless (Read Mark Twain's description of Palestine of the 1860's in his book "The Innocents Abroad"):

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

The Jewish settlers of the latter quarter of the 19th century bought their land while your forebears drove the native American from vast tracts of theirs. The Jewish settlers introduced industry to what had previously been an extremely poor agrarian set up with minimal disruption to the indigenous people or their way of life. Your forebears all but destroyed the very eco-systems that the native American relied upon for their existence forcing them to abandon their traditional ways and to live on "white-mans" hand-outs on reservations, usually situated on useless land allocated them by "white-men".

The arguement for Arab concern in the 1920's was that the influx of European Jewry was puting an unsustainable burden on the land in Palestine - That was when the total population of Palestine or the 23% of the total Mandated Territory was around 1 million people - Present day Arab population of Palestine is roughly 4.5 million and the population of Israel is 7.2 million - So what exactly was the validity of the Arab concern in the 1920's CarolC?

To anybody reading this thread could you note that CarolC and Barry Finn have been asked to come up with quite a few answers regarding various aspects of the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews over the past ninety odd years - they have so far refused to answer any. Where they allude to vague rumour and are particularly selective in the period they wish to draw your attention to, myself and others cover the entire period, provide detail with regard to places, dates and names that anybody can check - We are then accused of "lying".

On rational examination CarolC its your "profound lack of ability to intelligently reason" that absolutely astounds me.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:22 AM

Lets just say that Teribus and BB are subjective while Barry and Carol are objective.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:31 AM

And quite naturally Dianavan I would state exactly the opposite.

While CarolC and Barry consistently argue from only one perspective. BB and myself take any given situation and examine the circumstances and come up with some form of explanation for why things happened the way they did, and why various parties adopt the positions they do. Neither BB or mayself have denied that events have happened as CarolC has done, and when asked a question both BB and myself have done our best to answer providing detail to support our point of view.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:19 AM

"I've already shown you (and the fact of their existence is not subjective and can be proven) that there are Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians. The reason they are accepted there is because they aren't living there as occupiers. Any Jews could live anywhere at all in both Israel and Palestine in peace if they would simply remove their jackboots off the necks of the non-Jewish indigenous people." - CarolC

Please note that the ever so "objective" CarolC makes no differentiation between "The West Bank", where the Palestinian Authority rules, and Gaza, the fiefdom of Hamas the elected "Government" of the Palestinian people. In the former there is dialogue between those governing and Israel, in the latter because of Hamas refusal to recognise Israel's right of existence and the daily rocket attacks on the civilian population of Israel mounted from inside Gaza there is no dialogue.

So this statement by CarolC, is selective, misleading and should be highly qualified:

"there are Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians"

Now my purely subjective comment to that would be:

"Not in Gaza CarolC".

Oh by the bye, did any of you know that it is considered a traitorous act for any Palestinian to apply for Israeli citizenship in the arab sections of Jerusalem by the Palestinian Authorities. I'll dig out the quotes when I've got a minute. They also reckon that if a full and free referendum was held as to whether or not the Arabs on the West Bank currently living in Israeli controlled areas wished to be governed by the PA or remain under Israeli governance it would be a 70%+ vote for the latter.

For anyone interested in the detail of this "land grab" that CarolC is so "objectively" advising us of:

1. Original Mandated Territory as of 1920 was some 118,000 Sq Km in area.

2. In 1923 the British split this original Mandated Territory as follows:
- Transjordan 91,000 Sq Km, this was given to the indigenous Arabs who lived in the territory as an autonomous "kingdom", which later became Jordan.
- An area of some 1,176 Sq Km that was given to French Mandated area known as Syria
- Palestine which was an area of 25,824 Sq Km of which 11,750 Sq Km was an uninhabitable area known as the Negev Desert.

3. In 1948, the original Mandated Territory consited of the following:
- The Negev Desert (unihabitable) 11,750 Sq Km or 45.5% of Palestine, or 9.96% of the original 1920 Mandate of Palestine, this fell under the control of Israel, primarily because nobody else wanted it.
- Israel, 8000 Sq Km or 31% of Palestine, or 6.78% of the original 1920 Mandate of Palestine
- Jordan, 96,700 Sq Km which included 5,700 Sq Km of 1923 Palestine or 22.1% of Palestine plus 77% of the original mandated territory amounting to 81.95% of the original 1920 Mandated Territory
- Egypt, 360 Sq Km or 1.4% of Palestine, or 0.31% of the original 1920 Mandated Territory

The Negev to this day remains pretty unihabitable so the upshot is that of the Territory known as Palestine given to the UK to administer by The League of Nations in 1920 with the express obligation of setting up a "national homeland" for the Jews, the Arabs currently hold 83.26% of the total, while the Jews hold 16.74% of which only 6.78% is habitable.

That's some "land-grab" eh, CarolC - less than 7% of what was available. Now just by comparison how much did those "whitemen" grab in North America CarolC?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 10:30 AM

You did state what is quoted above didn't you? It was you who drew the parallel between the European influx, domination and occupation of North American to the arrival of European Jews to Palestine.

Like I said, you are too stupid to argue with. You know perfectly well that I am talking about the origin of the two conflicts and you know perfectly well that in the US the origin was hundreds of years ago and that the US, while it still has many human rights issues, has at least come out of the Dark Ages when it comes to its laws about equal rights for all human beings. Israel is still in the Dark Ages when it comes to the issue of human rights. You are not a worthy opponent. I don't even have to make you look stupid. You do that yourself. Arguing with you just isn't sporting. You really are stupid enough to think you can make an argument like that and not look totally foolish. Like I said, I've had enough. I can only derive so much pleasure out of humiliating you, but after a while it just seems sad that it's so easy.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:06 AM

Still avoiding difficult questions then CarolC?

Still denying what the real origins of the conflict were?

Still denying from whom the Israelis learned their lessons in survival?

I was absolutely amazed that you had the complete and utter gall to bring up the subject of "human rights". This by the way was priceless:

"Israel is still in the Dark Ages when it comes to the issue of human rights." - CarolC

Even if that were true with regard to the issue of human rights, they'd still be light years ahead of the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours. How many videos have you seen aired of Israelis cutting off peoples heads CarolC? How many times have you seen, or heard, senior Israeli officials boasting of the store of body parts they have in the freezer to use as bargaining counters?

Interesting to know that you believe in a Statute of Limitations for the crimes you accuse Israel of. So according to your moral standard they've only got to hang on a few more years and everything will be OK, just like you over there in the good old US of A.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 11:30 AM

You're like that knight in the Monty Python sketch, Teribus. You've had both your arms and your legs hacked off, and now you're shouting, "Come over here so I can bit you on the leg!"

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:03 PM

Oh you mean from the film "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".

Odd that, because at the moment I'd say that you were the one left with not a leg to stand on.

Still no answers then?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:05 PM

I've already answered all of your points, Teribus, several times right here in this thread. Hop off on your stumps, now, and read the thread.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 02:19 PM

CarolC,

Claiming to have answered points is not the same as giving a coherent answer. So far, YOU have made blanket statements as to what "Israel" is doing, and why, while denying the statements BY THE PALESTINIAN groups that are in control as to their intent towards Israel. I have presented the Hamas Charter in the past- do I need to post it here again? And you ignore the present acts of war against Israel- NOT the "occupied West Bank', but Israel as even you have conceded has a right to exist, by thos same ( Hamas) groups. Against civilians. Killing both Jews and Arabs, as long as they are in Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:15 PM

"I've already answered all of your points, Teribus, several times right here in this thread." - CarolC

Really? Then how come the answers to the following are conspicuous by their absence?

1. How many videos have you seen aired of Israelis cutting off peoples heads CarolC?

2. How many times have you seen, or heard, senior Israeli officials boasting of the store of body parts they have in the freezer to use as bargaining counters?

3. Are Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side in Gaza CarolC?

4. In the great Jewish Mandate of Palestine "land-grab", the Jews "grabbed" less than 7% of what was available. Now just by comparison how much land did your forefathers grab in North America CarolC?

5. The arguement for Arab concern in the 1920's was that the influx of European Jewry was puting an unsustainable burden on the land in Palestine - That was when the total population of Palestine or the 23% of the total Mandated Territory was around 1 million people - Present day Arab population of Palestine is roughly 4.5 million and the population of Israel is 7.2 million - So what exactly was the validity of the Arab concern in the 1920's CarolC?

6. Did the Israelis honour their commitment to withdraw from Gaza?

7. Did the Palestinian Authority honour its commitment to halt rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza?

8. Provide one example of any commitment or agreement entered into by the Palestinians that they have kept or have ever even had the slightest intention of keeping with regard to Israel.

(Hint: There is one that I can instantly think of CarolC, but it is not an answer that you will ever give on this forum as long as your arse points downwards)

9 Tell us about the Massacre at Hebron in 1929 CarolC.

10. What is the correct definition of a "Palestinian"?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 03:51 PM

Jews have tried to enter Gaza, and they have been welcome to do so by the Palestinians living there, but the Israeli government has prevented them from doing so. These Jews, it should be noted, were not attempting to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians by building apartheid, Jewish-only settlements accessed by apartheid Jewish-only roads, with the IDF enforcing the apartheid conditions.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/717/37247


But that was not the point being discussed, as I am sure you are aware, Teribus. beardedbruce was trying to turn what I said around on me, and he failed to do so. Jews are welcome by the Palestinians to live among them as friends and equals, and there are examples of this that prove it is true. The distinction here, again, is that these Jews are not doing so as occupiers, but as friends. That is all that is needed for peace in Israel/Palestine. For Israel and for Jews to live amongst the Palestinians as friends and as equals and not as conquerers and overseers, and to stop the ethnic cleansing (and genocide). We have proof that this is true, because there are Jews living amongst the Palestinians who are welcome to be there, and they are not being harmed in any way.

beardedbruce, himself, would be welcome to live with the Palestinians in their villages as a friend and equal, if he weren't so rabidly racist towards Palestinians and Arabs.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:30 PM

And Arabs are welcome to live peacefully in Israel: We have proof that this is true, because there are Arabs living amongst the Jews who are welcome to be there, and they are not being harmed in any way.


If you feel that a limited number proves the point, ( as the number of Jews living in Palestinian villages is very few, far fewer than the number of Arab Moslims living in Israel) then you have to concede my point- which proves your assertions about what Israel wants to do are false.

Or do you still insist that Jews be held to one standard, and Moslims to another?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:33 PM

That is all that is needed for peace in Israel/Palestine. For Palestinian Moslims to live amongst the Jews as friends and as equals and not as murderers and suicide bombers, and to stop the attempted genocide of Jews that Palestinians still teach their children.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 05:54 PM

"if he weren't so rabidly racist towards Palestinians and Arabs. "

I AM predjudiced: I have a certain emnity towards ANYONE who has declared repeatedly, and acted upon those statements whenever they had the chance, that they want to kill me, my relatives, and my friends because our grandparents had the "wrong" religion.

As for Palestinians, those I have been friends with were driven out of their village by the Moslim armies of the Arab League. Being Christian, they were in the way of the Moslim control of the West Bank after 1948, and had to flee for their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:01 PM

from another thread...


"The contemporary way to get somebody with whom you disagree to shut up is to call them "racist." It works most of the time because nobody wants that label. Usually, the accusation is unfounded, like it is in this case. Thankfully, it's beginning not to work anymore. People are becoming wise to these tactics."

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:04 PM

The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:27 PM

"Jews have tried to enter Gaza, and they have been welcome to do so by the Palestinians living there" - CarolC

Was that some sort of feeble attempt at answering Question No.3?:

3. Are Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side in Gaza CarolC?

"I've already shown you (and the fact of their existence is not subjective and can be proven) that there are Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians." - so contends CarolC

But "arch-liar" Teribus, questions this "chuminess" and raises the differences between the situation in Gaza and the situation in the West Bank, which gave rise to the question about Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians in Gaza.

Remember way way back in this thread CarolC, I told you that in a discussion/debate/interrogation you know who is telling the truth by the constancy of their "tale".

Up above there we have a shift in yours don't we? It has moved from "that there are Jews living" to "Jews have tried to enter Gaza". Not quite the same thing is it? Oh and the link from "Green Left Weekly", 70 "activists" are trying to enter Gaza by boat to distribute aid? What the hell has that got to with "Jews trying to enter Gaza" and "Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians"?

Even in the West Bank the link you supplied about Hebron is not exactly a success story about "Jews living in Palestinian villages with Palestinians" is it? I notice that you side stepped the question about Hebron, but the very short version I gave earlier may explain why in your link on Hebron it mentions a massive Arab majority now residing in what used to be a predominantly Jewish town of some 800 years standing, or at least it was a predominatly Jewish town up until 1929 that is.

You CarolC have called me liar, racist, supremacist simply because I have successfully countered your myths, half-truths and misrepresentations, you are without doubt a sorry piece of work, an apologist for liars and murderers, who have deliberately held a people in poverty and misery for the best part of 60 years for nothing other than their own gain - you are more to be pitied than censured.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 06:49 PM

Palestinians are only allowed to live in a very small number of places, beardedbruce, whether they are peaceful or not. There are many Palestinians who have never committed any violent acts, and none of those Palestinians are allowed to live in the apartheid, Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. And they are also not allowed to live in Israel. This is because of Israel's racist policy of maintaining a permanent Arab minority.

And for you to consistently hold all Arabs responsible for what some Arabs have done, is collective punishment, one of the Nazis favorite tactics. The Nazis showed us quite well the injustice of collective punishment when they practiced it on the Jews. And here you are carrying on that stellar practice yourself. You are the one who is practicing the double standard, and it shows that your hatred of Arabs has nothing whatever to do with whether or not they have practiced violence against you or anyone else. You hate them because you believe you are better than them, and that because you are better than them, you have a right to treat them however you like, even if that means taking what is theirs and not yours, and treating them like they are not human. You are the inheritor of the Nazi ideology, beardedbruce.

Or do you still insist that Jews be held to one standard, and Moslims to another?

I find it very telling that you have framed this in terms of Jews and Muslims. I guess you have already written off the existence of the Christian Palestinians. That was quick work. Now that you've gotten rid of them, that makes fewer Palestinians to have to get rid of.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 07:08 PM

Teribus, I said that you are too stupid to argue with, and I really meant it. You are too stupid to argue with.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 08:39 PM

" I guess you have already written off the existence of the Christian Palestinians. That was quick work. Now that you've gotten rid of them, that makes fewer Palestinians to have to get rid of. "

I have not written them off- but you have ignored that many were driven out - "clensed" by those so-innocent Moslims that made the West Bank "juden-frie" from 1948 to 1967. YOU are tho one who states that ALL jews think such, or that "Israel" intends to do things.

As for the Nazi, it is those who support the ( internationally declared) illegal area mass bombardments, by rockets aimed at civilian areas, that are the ones in violation of international law- YET YOU DO NOT object to THAT. As long as they are only killing Jews, and Christians, and Moslims living peacably in Israel YOU seem to think that it is ok.


I have never claimed any "problem" with Palestinians attacking military posts- but the deliberate targheting of civilians, and YOUR support of them,is deserving of condemnation.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Feb 08 - 09:06 PM

"You hate them because you believe you are better than them, and that because you are better than them, you have a right to treat them however you like, even if that means taking what is theirs and not yours, and treating them like they are not human. "


YOU have no idea what I believe. You may infer from what I have written, but your claim to KNOW what others believe, orr what they intend hasd been seen to be far from reality.


HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine do you insist be reserved solely for the Moslims? The Jews are SHARING their small part with Moslims and Christians, and have taken in the Jewish refugess driven out of Arab nations. WHAT have the "Palestinians" done? JORDAN ( The portion of Mandate Palestine EXCLUSIVELY reserved for Moslims) offered then full citizenship in 1948, if they would renounce the destruction of Israel. They did not, and thus remained stateless.

I think it is you who refuse to treat the Palestinians as human, because they make much better pawns to attack Jews with.


"They will have peace when they love their children more than they hate us."

YOU would rather hate, and prevent peace then to admit that the (Moslim)Palestinians have brought most of their pain upon themselves, by their own actions.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 12:07 AM

Carol, you've done a great job explaining what's in plain sight for most of us to see but you're dealing here with a couple that can't stand far enough away to see the whole picture. They've got their noses so close to one point in the middle of the painting that they'll never see the wider scope of the object as a complete piece never mind the frame in which it's held nor the wall behind that from which it hangs or the light that shines on it.

You've ridden the horse to death & now it's time to get off the horse because they're gonna keep beating the dead carc-ass in the hopes that it'll get up & prove you wrong. It's not gonna get up, they're not gonna get it & "you're right!!! & they're wrong"

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:01 AM

I need to respond to these, Barry, if I want to get any sleep tonight.


I have not written them off- but you have ignored that many were driven out - "clensed" by those so-innocent Moslims that made the West Bank "juden-frie" from 1948 to 1967.

This is a lie. Most of the Christian Palestinians who have left have done so because of the brutal occupation of the Palestinian lands by the Israelis. This is yet another libel being told about the Palestinians by the government of Israel, to stir up yet more hatred toward Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.


YOU are tho one who states that ALL jews think such, or that "Israel" intends to do things.

This is a bald faced lie, beardedbruce. Right here in this thread I have said that there are Jews living peacefully in Palestinian villages who are treating the Palestinians as friends and as equals. YOU are the one who chooses to translate my criticism of Israel into a criticism of all Jews. But this is an incredibly dishonest tactic, and you know it. I have also said numerous times that there are many, many Jews who are not racist like you, and who are fighting very hard for the rights of Palestinians. And I have said that these people are my heroes.

As for the Nazi, it is those who support the ( internationally declared) illegal area mass bombardments, by rockets aimed at civilian areas, that are the ones in violation of international law- YET YOU DO NOT object to THAT.

The Palestinians are fighting against occupation (even the ones in Gaza, who are still under occupation, even if the soldiers who enforce that occupation are on the other side of the wall now). When Jews place themselves among the Palestinians as friends rather than as occupiers, the Palestinians welcome them and do not hurt them. They do not hold all Jews responsible for the behavior of some Jews. They are not the racists, and they are not practicing anything resembling a Nazi ideology. But you advocate punishing all Palestinians for the actions of some Palestinians, regardless of whether or not the Palestinians in question have committed the acts that you object to. This is the racist practice, and this is the practice that inherits the Nazi ideology.

HOW MUCH of Mandate Palestine do you insist be reserved solely for the Moslims?

I have never insisted that ANY of it be reserved solely for Muslims. I have never used the word Moslim (Muslim) in this context at all. And I have never insisted, or even suggested, that any of it be reserved solely for Palestinians. You are the one who is advocating that land should be set aside for the exclusive use of a particular group (Jews). I am saying that all groups should be allowed to live on all of the land (with freedom and equality). That is all I have ever been saying.

You are the one who insists that Jews should be allowed to live in apartheid, Jewish-only settlements wherever they want to, regardless of how many Palestinians get displaced in the process. Or if that's not what you're saying, then I guess you would have no problem with allowing Palestinians to live in the settlements, and use the roads that currently only Jews can use to get to and from the settlements. And you would have no problem with allowing non-Jews to buy land from Jews in Israel. And you would have no problem with allowing any Palestinians who want to, to live in Israel (Israel within the 67 borders).

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 02:57 AM

"When Jews place themselves among the Palestinians as friends rather than as occupiers, the Palestinians welcome them and do not hurt them." - CarolC

What a ridiculous statement. It flies in the face of history. Is that what happened before CarolC? Not according to what happened, and if anybody doubts that all they have to do is consult the records of the time.

"They do not hold all Jews responsible for the behavior of some Jews. They are not the racists, and they are not practicing anything resembling a Nazi ideology." - CarolC

Ah, so those clowns down in Gaza firing all those rockets into the civilian centres of population in Israel know for definite that the people they are firing at are the Israelis responsible for all the ills of the Palestinian Arabs do they? I am dying to hear what you come up with by way of justification for what most certainly is a clear example of collective punishment and an act in direct contravention of the Geneva Convention.

For those interested here are the answers to the questions that CarolC seems reluctant to answer:

1. How many videos have you seen aired of Israelis cutting off peoples heads CarolC?

Answer: NONE

2. How many times have you seen, or heard, senior Israeli officials boasting of the store of body parts they have in the freezer to use as bargaining counters?

Answer: NEVER

3. Are Jews and Palestinians living peacefully side by side in Gaza CarolC?

Answer: No they are not, all Jewish/Israelis were evacuated from Gaza under the terms of the unilateral agreement to withdraw reached with the Palestinain Authority.

4. In the great Jewish Mandate of Palestine "land-grab", the Jews "grabbed" less than 7% of what was available. Now just by comparison how much land did your forefathers grab in North America CarolC?

Answer: CarolC's forefathers grabbed 97.5% of the land mass of the United States of America leaving the indigenous population with 2.5% which is administered by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

5. The arguement for Arab concern in the 1920's was that the influx of European Jewry was puting an unsustainable burden on the land in Palestine - That was when the total population of Palestine or the 23% of the total Mandated Territory was around 1 million people - Present day Arab population of Palestine is roughly 4.5 million and the population of Israel is 7.2 million - So what exactly was the validity of the Arab concern in the 1920's CarolC?

Answer: The Arabs concerns were baseless, as was reported by the Peel Commission in 1937. However this concern over land was used as a pretext to severely restrict pre-war Jewish immigration.

6. Did the Israelis honour their commitment to withdraw from Gaza?

Answer: Yes they did in full.

7. Did the Palestinian Authority honour its commitment to halt rocket attacks on Israel from Gaza?

Answer: No they did not, the attacks continue to this day.

8. Provide one example of any commitment or agreement entered into by the Palestinians that they have kept or have ever even had the slightest intention of keeping with regard to Israel.

Answer: Their commitment to the complete and utter destruction of Israel as can be clearly read in the Charters of both Hamas and Hezbollah.

9 Tell us about the Massacre at Hebron in 1929 CarolC.

Answer: Unprovoked attack by Arabs on a Jewish town that had been an established jewish community for over 800 years. 67 people were killed and the population was driven out of the their homes, which explains why the demographics for Hebron now show an Arab population of 35,000 and a Jewish community of less than 800.

10. What is the correct definition of a "Palestinian"?

Answer: According to the UN anyone who resided or worked in the Mandated Territory of Palestine in the two years before Israel's declaration of Independence (1946 to 1948).

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 12:19 PM

You're too stupid to argue with, Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

"YOU would rather hate, and prevent peace then to admit that the (Moslim)Palestinians have brought most of their pain upon themselves, by their own actions." - bb

I think, bb, that your attitude stinks.

If you substitute the word, Jews for "(Moslim)Palestinians" you will understand what I mean.

You are driven by hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:27 PM

I think it's also very telling that beardedbruce keeps turning the discussion in the direction of Muslims, instead of Palestinians. This discussion has never been about Muslims. It's always been about Palestinians, although it looks like beardedbruce is unaware that there are still Christian Palestinians living in Occupied Palestine. So I guess he hates all Muslims on top of his hatred of Palestinians and Arabs. That's a hell of a lot of people to hate (more than a billion).

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:23 AM

IYO CarolC - but so far you have been unable to refute one single thing that has been stated either by myself or by BB.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 07:45 AM

Are you kidding T? She's been nailing you & BB to the cross & you still can't feel the pain, must be the drugs!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 08:25 AM

Care to point out any examples of that Baz?

The fact that the first instance of trouble in Palestine between Arab and Jew was a completely unprovoked attack by Arabs on Jews was well recorded in the newspapers at the time, in official records after having been subject to a thorough investigation. Only a complete and utter idiot would deny it ever happened, but the pair of you have seemingly done so.

While the pair of you drone on about Israeli transgressions, atrocities and acts of violence post 1947, there is not even an acknowledgement of what occured in the previous 27 years when the boot was very much on the other foot. Sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander. No mention whatsoever of the violence and threats of violence publicly directed at Israel since 1948.

Your so-called view of what you regard as the "big picture" is blatantly one of the most hypocritical ever demonstrated.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM

What a few assholes go and kidnap a few Israel soldiers who were over the wrong side of the border & Israel blows the landscape & everyone in it back to the birth of Christ? Great example T!

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 10:44 AM

You are quite right Barry what a great example, your last post illustrates what I was saying about you perfectly:

"Your so-called view of what you regard as the "big picture" is blatantly one of the most hypocritical ever demonstrated."

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 11:25 AM

So blatant T that the UN had to scold them about it?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

CarolC

"This is a lie. Most of the Christian Palestinians who have left have done so because of the brutal occupation of the Palestinian lands by the Israelis."

YOUR statement is a lie- I lived across the street from one family, and they had hundreds of relatives. All driven out of the cHRISTIAN town of Ramallah by the Moslims in the late 40's, when Israel did NOT have control of the area.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:43 PM

" You are the one who is advocating that land should be set aside for the exclusive use of a particular group (Jews). "

No ISRAEL is the one country in the region where different religions are allowed to freely live together.




"I am saying that all groups should be allowed to live on all of the land (with freedom and equality). "

Then YOU will agree that the greater part of Mandate Palestine (Jordan) should be opened to Jewish selttlement???

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:47 PM

"And you would have no problem with allowing non-Jews to buy land from Jews in Israel."


True. MORE non- Jews own land in Israel than non-Muslims own land in Jordan.


" And you would have no problem with allowing any Palestinians who want to, to live in Israel (Israel within the 67 borders). "

True, with the caveat that it should be the MANDATE PALESTINE area, which includes the West Bank AND Jordan that should be open to settlement by Palestinians AND Jews. Provided, of course, that they disavow their stated intent to KILL all the Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:50 PM

" So I guess he hates all "


No, again. YOU do NOT have any idea who I hate, except that I have stated a certain emnity against those who claim they want to kill me.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:52 PM

Barry,

re 02 Mar 08 - 10:31 AM : You have a very selective memory. How about the daily rocket attacks by groups in Lebenon ( Before the kidnapping) against civilian populations in Israel?

Oh, I guess Jews don't count in your book.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 04:54 PM

"So blatant T that the UN had to scold them about it?"

The SAME UN that said the ceasefire would only be valid if BOTH sides complied, and then ignored the RESUPPLY ( against the rules of the ceasefire) of Hezboallah missiles, and the LACK of compliance on the part of all groups OTHER than Israel????

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 Mar 08 - 06:17 PM

Oh, was that before the airel bombing?

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:16 AM

Your selective memory's showing again Barry. Go back and take a good look at the timeline of events.

Oh that reminds me Barry, how many rockets fired indiscriminately into your neighbourhood would you allow to fall before you took action against those firing them?

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM

YES, Barry.

And the Hamas rockest have been daily hitting Israel for the last 6 months or so, before the Israeli air attacks on Gaza late last week. But I guess you'll just blame those warlike Israelis that object to having their civilian population ( Of Jews, Christians, AND Muslims) attacked every day by area mass bombardment missiles.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:22 AM

YOUR statement is a lie- I lived across the street from one family, and they had hundreds of relatives. All driven out of the cHRISTIAN town of Ramallah by the Moslims in the late 40's, when Israel did NOT have control of the area.

There are still Christian Palestinians in Palestine, beardedbruce. They suffer just as much under the occupation as the Muslim Palestinians do. I don't know the particular story of your neighbors, but Muslims and Christians (and Jews) were successfully living together in Palestine for a long time prior to the war of 1948/49 and the Nakba. Many Christian Palestinians fled along with the Muslim Palestinians during the Nakba, and ended up living in the same refugee camps. This website (an Arab Catholic site) explains some of the dynamics...

Palestinian Christians, an integral part of their society, suffered the consequences of the intensive Arab Jewish communal conflict in the first half of the twentieth century When the communal conflict came to a head in martial confrontation in 1948, Arab Palestinian society was forced to re-organise. Many Palestinian refugees, including Christians, established themselves in the newly emerging Amman capital of Jordan, as traders, professionals and businessmen. Others opted leave to North American and Arab Gulf destinations. Those who went to Arab Gulf countries eventually came back to retire in their hometowns such as B Sahour, the town best known for The Shepherds' Field. Others who opted to North America and further destinations established themselves and the families there and became diaspora communities with the usual sentiment attachments to the homeland and its fading memories.

So we can see that some of the Christians who fled ended up returning to Palestine and were not driven off by the Muslims. Maybe it was the Jewish paramilitaries who drove your neighbors off, but they were afraid to tell you that because they were afraid of possible repercussions if they did so.

The above linked page explains the higher rate of Christian Palestinians leaving. This is how it characterizes the traditional quality of relations between Christians and Muslims in Palestine...

Excellent Christian-Moslem Relations

In order to better understand or contextualise the Palestinian Christian response, there is need to reaffirm the traditionally excellent relations between Christians and their Moslem neighbours. This tradition of good Christian-Moslem relations has evolved through centuries of coexistence and exchange in the cities of Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem, Ramallah and in the rural areas such as Zababdeh, BirZeit and other towns and villages where Moslems and Christians live side by side and interact in their pursuit of daily pre-occupations and concerns. A number of factors have historically contributed to this tradition of excellent Moslem-Christian relations:4

First, the modem history of Palestine with the Arab-Israeli conflict affecting the entire population equally, with the experience of dispersal and loss of homeland.

Second, the contribution which Christian institutions, mostly Western, have made since the 19th century to the education, health and other needs of the population irrespective of religion.

Third, the presence of the Holy Places, and the recognition by Islam of the centrality of Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Nazareth to Christianity. This recognition is best crystallised in Caliph 'Umar's "al-Uhda al-'Umariyya" which was his guarantee of the safety of Christians and their holy places in 638 when Islam entered the country.5

Fourth, the urban nature of the Christian population and its living in religiously mixed Christian-Moslem neighbourhoods, thus emphasising openness and neighbourly relations. In those instances where Christians lived in villages and rural areas, relations were always characterised by friendly co-operation and communal sharing.

Fifth, Christians take equal pride in their national and religious roots. Being a good Christian has never detracted from being a good Palestinian nationalist, and vice-versa.

Sixth, the Ottoman Miller system which recognised the autonomy of the Christian communities to run their own internal affairs, especially those related to religious and civil matters.

________________


" You are the one who is advocating that land should be set aside for the exclusive use of a particular group (Jews). "

No ISRAEL is the one country in the region where different religions are allowed to freely live together.

But you support the Jewish-only settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, beardedbruce? Or do you support opening up the settlements to anyone who wants to live in them?


"I am saying that all groups should be allowed to live on all of the land (with freedom and equality). "

Then YOU will agree that the greater part of Mandate Palestine (Jordan) should be opened to Jewish selttlement???

Settlement, beardedbruce? The kind of settlement that is ongoing in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, in which only Jews can live, that are accessed by roads that only Jews may drive on, with the apartheid being enforced by the IDF? Is this what you are suggesting when you use the word "Jewish settlement"?

Of course I don't agree with "settlement". And why should Jews want to "settle" an already settled country? Why can't they just live as equals amongst the people who already live there? Why do you feel that they should be allowed to drive everyone else out?


"And you would have no problem with allowing non-Jews to buy land from Jews in Israel."

True. MORE non- Jews own land in Israel than non-Muslims own land in Jordan.

Currently, no land in Israel may be purchased from a Jew by anyone other than another Jew. And with the rate of confiscations of homes and properties from Arab Israelis, the amount of land owned by non-Jews in Israel is shrinking fast. Do you support allowing non-Jews to purchase property from Jews in Israel?


"And you would have no problem with allowing any Palestinians who want to, to live in Israel (Israel within the 67 borders). "

True, with the caveat that it should be the MANDATE PALESTINE area, which includes the West Bank AND Jordan that should be open to settlement by Palestinians AND Jews. Provided, of course, that they disavow their stated intent to KILL all the Jews.

Well, I guess you're setting them up for failure then, beardedbruce (no surprise there), since they have NEVER stated ANY intent to kill ALL the Jews. This is nothing but a blood libel on your part against the Palestinians as a people.


No, again. YOU do NOT have any idea who I hate, except that I have stated a certain emnity against those who claim they want to kill me.

This is bullshit, beardedbruce, since you have not personally interviewed all of the Palestinians to know whether or not they have ever made such a claim. You hate all Palestinians (and all Arabs, and all Muslims) and you are just making up this libel against them so you can justify your racist hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 09:16 AM

There are still Muslim Israelis in Israel, CarolC. They suffer just as much under the attacks of Hamas as the Jewish Israelis do. I don't know the particular story of your neighbors, but Muslims and Christians (and Jews) are successfully living together in Israel NOW and since the 1880s.



"Maybe it was the Jewish paramilitaries who drove your neighbors off, but they were afraid to tell you that because they were afraid of possible repercussions if they did so."

Gee, they left Ramallah ( ON THE WEST BANK) between 1948 and 1960- WHEN IT WAS UNDER JORDANIAN CONTROL. You have a very convoluted idea of where and when "Jewish paramilitaries" were active.




"Currently, no land in Israel may be purchased from a Jew by anyone other than another Jew."

Care to provide any information on this? I have never heard of this, other than from sites that also claim the Holocaust never happened and Jews control the world.



"Do you support allowing non-Jews to purchase property from Jews in Israel?"

As much as YOU support Jews buying property from anyone in ANY Arab nation- You know maybe the property that was taken from them when they ( the Jews)+ were forced out in 1948- 1956?


"since they have NEVER stated ANY intent to kill ALL the Jews."

FALSE- YOU have never bothered to read the CHARTERS of Hamas, the other Palestinian organizations, the declarations of the Arab League in 1947 onward, the statements by the offiucial representatives of those groups, or the classroom materials preseted in UN sponsered Palestinian schools. YOU are the one making the blood libels.



"This is bullshit, beardedbruce, since you have not personally interviewed all of the Palestinians to know whether or not they have ever made such a claim."

I only have the emnity with those who HAVE made that statement- which includes the official representatives of many of the various Palestinian groups, the Arab League,etc. I have no emnity at all for Jordanians, Egyptians, or others that have NOT expressed the desire to kill Jews.

" You hate all Palestinians (and all Arabs, and all Muslims) and you are just making up this libel against them so you can justify your racist hatred. "

Another false statement, certainly a libel against me. YOU have never interviewed ALL Israelis, yet you make claims as to what they want to do, and why.

Why is that? If ONE peaceful Palestinian requires Jews to sit back and be killed without action, why is it that one peaceful Jew does not require that the Palestinians stop their mass bombardment attacks upon the civilian population ( Jews, Muslim, and Christian) of Israel?




I have stated there are Palestinians I do not hate- YOUR STATEMENT that I hate ALL Palestinians is a baltent lie, and obviously you have no desire to even deal with the truth.

I will regard your subsequent comments accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 02:59 PM

http://www.meforum.org/article/370

This article ends as follows:

"In sum, the Palestinian Authority has successfully managed to charge Israel with the very sins that it itself is guilty of. The most striking instances of this success, perhaps, are the many academics and journalists who repeat and reinforce Palestinian charges of Israeli discrimination with regard to land ownership. This climate of distortion has two consequences. First, it misleads politicians, diplomats, and others about the basic facts that underlie the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations. Second, it encourages Palestinians to harbor unreasonable hopes and make exorbitant demands. These twin problems reinforce each other, and thereby make a genuine peace that much more difficult to achieve.

This presents a particularly bad precedent for the negotiation of such final status issues as Jerusalem, water rights, and the drawing of borders. It is likely that these final status issues will also be subject to campaigns to portray Israel as an unprovoked aggressor and Palestinians and Arabs as blameless victims. Indeed, there are signs that this has already begun"

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 03:10 PM

On the other hand,

1. It is illegal for Jews to buy land in Jordan.

2"Arutz Sheva News Service -- May 22, 1997

ARAFAT STANDS BY DEATH PENALTY
PA Chairman Yasser Arafat confirmed yesterday that the PA will implement the death penalty against Arabs who sell land to Jews. [See insert following this news report.] The PA is in fact actively engaged in seeking and pursuing Arab land dealers who have sold to Jews. Jibril Rajub, head of the Palestinian security forces, has been given a list of Arabs who are suspected of the recently-declared capital crime. Fifteen Arabs from the Hevron-area villages of Yata and Dura have been arrested by Rajub's men over the past several days. They have been transferred for interrogation to Palestinian security service installations in Jericho. The Knesset Land of Israel front, together with the Yesha Council, are operating a distress hot-line for Palestinian land-dealers. The Arab press, apparently fearful of reprisal, refused to publish paid advertisements with the phone number. In recent days, families of Arab land-dealers have asked the Israeli authorities to transfer them over the Green Line, for their safety.

State Department spokesman Nicholas Burns issued a sharp condemnation of Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority on this issue last night. "The United States condemns any law or any decree that would threaten death against any Palestinian for selling land to Israelis or Jews," Burns said. "That's wrong. It's contrary to what must prevail in the Middle East, which is peace... Chairman Arafat must stand up for the rule of law. He must defend it in what he says and what he does, and frankly the recent statements by members of his administration ... inciting Palestinians to attack and murder other Palestinians for selling land, those statements are reprehensible."

Subject: RE: BS: WMDs, Iran and Bush
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 08 - 05:09 PM

Oh, wot the hell! 800!

Don Firth