Fiddle Bowing

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: meself
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:57 PM

Tunesmith: You don't like traditional folk fiddling. That's okay - but you aren't going to convert us to your taste. Don't worry - most people seem to share your taste; there is only a handful of us old diehards left. Why not let us enjoy our harmless little vice in peace?

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM

When people lived in small isolated communities, they could indulge in their own "take" on intonation. But, now we live in different world. Can we then wear different "tonality hats" depending on what style of music that we are listening to? I don't think we can! If we can all choose our own perculiar intonations then nothing would ever be out of tune; and, more to the point, that would also mean that nothing would be in tune! Music would just be a terrible discordant mess. And this point can be illustrated by the recording of Stephane Grappelli and Vassar Clements wherein Vassar plays with his usual perculiar intonation and the result is not very pleasant listening.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 03:22 PM

Django played a fretted instrument which enabled his intonation.
Louis sang with a scratchy voice that no one (myself Included) seemed to mind.

A lot has to do with personality, phrasing, note selection, rhythmic emphasis and cognizance of the style of music.

You could say that Tommy Jarrell was scratchy and intonation was dodgy but highly listenable if you are into Appalachian or Round Peak styles.

Since the tempered scale, playing out of tune has been modified but not solved.

Some ears can pick out tonal discrepancies even in pieces that are deemed to be in-tune.

Folk fiddling is a different set of criteria than classical violin.

Moral: Every style calls for different criteria in what considered good.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 12:55 PM

The trouble with much folk fiddling is that - to my ears - the tone is scratchy and the intonation is very dodgy. Some self-taught players do play with great tone and intonation. Stephane Grappelli comes to mind here. And I don't think that today's listeners can easily atune their modern ears to earlier ideas of intonation. If that were true their would be no such thing as playing out of tune.
BTW, Satchmo and Django played with great tone and great intonation.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Paul Davenport
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:51 AM

I read this thread with some interest. Surely Captain Birdseye is aware that the way the string speaks depends on only two factors, bow speed and bow pressure. The length of the bow is always irrelevant. I have seen deafeningly strong performances given by a great fiddler using an 18th cent kit bow. I have heard weak performances given using a Toute style bow. It's all to do with technique. The Tourte style (modern) bow has two ends and so, if you develop the technique to use it, you have two 'power points' which give a more consistent tone. This, however, has little to do with 'fiddling'. In my opinion there is too much emphasis currently on 'folk fiddling' with a tonality more akin to classical playing. This is largely due to the numbers of 'converts' from classical violin styles. A careful study of traditional performers (and here I can only speak about European styles) reveals that, whilst tonality is considered, it is not the main emphasis of the player. In English traditional playing the accent is on rhythm, often to the total exclusion of tone. Bampton morris had a fiddler pre-Jinky Wells who used to emit a series of squeaks and grunts from his instrument which drove the dance beautifully but which sounded awful. I have seen Latvian and Hungarian fiddlers do much the same thing. Even players like Walter Bulwer and Harry Cox eshewed a quest for good tone in favour of a driving rhythm. The bow is, in such cases driven from the wrist using the weight of the hand.( Playing in a crowded pub crushes the elbow to the ribs and forces this 'flipper-like' action which sounds great. )
I can't help but agree with the writer who talked about Louis Armstrong, Django Rheinhardt etc. It's uniqueness that matters. So why do all young fiddlers sound the same? (My experience is based on considerable exposure to young Northern English players. I once asked a young player, "If I were arund that corner and heard you playing, how would I know it was you?" She couldn't answer. The decision making hand is that which holds the bow. That's where characterful playing is to be found. Incidentally, its worth listening to the string section of the Simon Bolivar Youth Orchestra. Their bows are all over the place, each player plays the way they feel the music. Its classical music played by some pretty good fiddlers and it sounds great. Why play folk as if it were classical?

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 03 Feb 09 - 09:27 AM

Anyone know?

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 07:00 AM

I notice he's got his fingers tucked inside the bow & seems to be putting some extra pressure on the bow hairs!

I wonder if this can make a difference to the tone?

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:58 AM

Found a Lyra player here http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bOILwSXdov0 sounds wonderful!

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:57 AM

Mr Happy

The conventional position seems very unnatural & for older beginners is a possible recipe for RSI etc

Go to a Tom McConville workshop and get some hints on Alexander technique. It starts with how you place your feet.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:53 AM

Yes, but why bother?

The conventional position seems very unnatural & for older beginners is a possible recipe for RSI etc

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: TheSnail
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 06:03 AM

Anyone know it it'd be feasible/ possible to play fiddle in a similar position to a cello

I've seen it done, probably about thirty years ago, but the result was less than impressive. More percussive than melodic.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Becks
Date: 30 Jan 09 - 05:49 AM

Using the whole bow does create more power and volume as can using a shorter amount of bow from between the frog and the mid section, however the quality of sound can be quite different. You tend to get a much smoother and flowing volume by using the whole bow and a shorter amount of bow tends to be used for faster or more aggresive playing.
You can play fast fiddle tunes with the whole of the bow but a slurring tecnique is required in most cases and sometimes the movement and life of the music is lost.

One exercise I used to do is playing a tune and being able to deliver it with the same amount of accuracy and pressure wherever I held the bow from the tip to the frog, it can only be done with a relaxed hand and is good way to practice. I also practice cello style so I can play my fiddle in any position.

I am a classically trained violinist from the age of 3, who turned to folk music at 16 after hearing Ric Saunders on his One to One tour with Gordon Giltrap when I was 8.
My classical training has proved very usefull but my playing has certainly changed.

Only my opinions, works for some not for others.
Becks

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Uncle Phil
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 09:49 PM

Viols are played upright, even lap-sized viols no larger than a fiddle. I don't know of any reason a violin couldn't be played that way, but also can't think of any particular reason to do so. There is a good article about viols on wikipedia; with info on history, construction, method of playing, etc,. Here is a picture of sometime mudcat contributor Mason Brown with the "pardessus de viole"
he used to play the fiddle parts on the Sands of Aberdeen CD with Jed. Mason plays it with the instrument sitting upright in his lap and it sounds great.
- Phil

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 04:13 PM

Lots of ethnic cousins of the fiddle ( e.g lyra and kamanche) are played thus.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 01:24 PM

Yes, but why bother?

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 09 - 10:46 AM

Anyone know it it'd be feasible/ possible to play fiddle in a similar position to a cello, given suitable supports for the instrument?

As here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/90/Brikcius.jpg

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,fizzylizzy
Date: 06 Jan 08 - 11:47 AM

Uhuh, Dick - don't think so. I'd remember a concertina player, they are kind of scarce in Donegal.And I have never been in Cork...Have fun at Glasson Dock Fest.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 06:57 PM

Fizzy lizzy,iwould be delighted to meet you Easter Monday,but Iwill be at Glasson Dock Maritime festival performing.
I believe we may have met before.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,fizzylizzy
Date: 05 Jan 08 - 03:00 PM

Stop arguing - get playing! It's a pity none of you made it to the Glencolmcille Traditional Arts Festival last Easter where you could have seen Tommy Peoples, Danny Meehan and James Byrne together in action.

All three from Donegal, yet so different (Danny is leaning towards the Sligo style for instance). James Byrne who is one of the most powerful players on the scene and who can make a cheap chinese factory fiddle sound like a Stradivari certainly uses the whole bow.

Listen again to these fiddlers - some of them quite famous - who grip the bow high up and play so fast they nearly overtake themselves - do they actually get a good tone out of the fiddle? Or is it maybe the sound engineer....anyone wanting to continue the discussion can meet me at the Glen Festival this Easter Monday 2008 in Roarty's Bar for a tune...

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:44 AM

My uncles and mother were classically trained. My uncles had no problem with playing jazz and dance music their own way with lots of life, expression, etc. They played piano and clarinet. My mom did the same on piano when she and dad played for dances. Sometimes she used sheet music, other times not, depended on what they were playing. Likewise my sister and I...we were both trained classically, both also heard dad playing fiddle and both do so, ourselves, though she does it more than I and has a group to play with. In all of our cases, I think classical enhanced what we had naturally and added to our fiddling.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:48 AM

"all technique and no musicality"

Many years ago, whilst attending a theatre live in workshop, I became interested in the mime workshop. The 2 French Canadian mimes with their students were residing in the same student college residental block as the theatre people.

One guy was technically brillant, his 'invisible walls' etc were spot on: the other guy was a bit sloppy, his 'walls' were a bit rubbery, etc. Now in terms of being 'interesting to watch', it was the exact reverse.

But the most interesting thing of all, was that they worked TOGETHER as a 'teaching team' brillantly, and had done so for years.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 05:01 PM

Frank,I agree, I find it very difficult too,and I realise I will never be as good on it as I am on the concertina.
one reason, I find it so difficult,is unlike fretted or free reed instruments,you have to adjust your pitch as you play,for me a completely new discipline.
like most musicians I allocate a certain amount of my practice time to improving certain areas of technique,and a certain amount of my time just for playing for pleasure.
But I think as we get older it is really important to keep the brain active,and to keep attempting new musical challenges,although the fiddle is probably my fourth or fifth instrument,I keep hoping I am improving as a result of regular practice[I try to allocate half an hour a day to it].Happy New Year Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 02:58 PM

Dick, that's a really interesting question. What if Charlie Parker had introduced his compositional skills into classical music? What if Django had four usable fingers in his left hand? What if Louis Armstong learned to sing the "correct" way? Or for that matter, became a legit trumpet player? Would these incredible genius musicians have done for us what they did?

I don't have an answer.

My guess is that the answer is, it depends on the individual musician. There are those
who will fiddle "the correct way" and others such as Hobart Smith or Tommy Jarrell who will do it their way and ignore the technique. I think if you listen to Stuff Smith, Claude Williams or even early Big Bill Broonzy (who started out as a fiddler) you could be critical of their playing habits in producing a legit tone. But they took a different road. True for Micheal Coleman, James Morrison and the Sligo players. I think that it might behoove an absolute beginner to get some classical lessons and then take off from there. But even then, there is no guarantee that this beginner is going to be remarkable players in a given style of music.

None of them can do what Heifitz or Menuhin did but it also works the other way
around. Anyway, it brings up an interesting question. What is the "right" way?

In the meantime I find the fiddle to be a damnable instrument to learn to play well.
My fingers will not do what I hear in my head.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

well I think of a lot of listening is important,it can take years to absorb.
I am not sure about Irish culture,I have heard Japanese people who have played with good lilt and style,and a few Irish who havent got lilt,.
People are either musical or they are not.
I think youare right,People manage to produce exciting music ,despite doing everything wrong,but I would still try and teach people to try and be correct,because I dont think being correct,prevents playing musically,however a teacher must be observant and sensitive,and in the end let the pupil do what is comfortable,and if they are not comfortable with a correct hold,allow them to do it their own way[if they are making good music].
personally, I think that some days I have it, and some days I dont,both with singing and instrument playing,I know when I am performing well and when I am just competent,it is very frustrating.
Frank Hamiltonsaid [quote]    This is by way of saying that just because you have good classical technique does not automatically mean you can play every type of music on the violin or fiddle. Some of it is cultural, genetic or phenotypical. Some of it means having grown up with it regardless of what classical technique you choose.
This is by way of saying that just because you have good classical technique does not automatically mean you can play every type of music on the violin or fiddle. Some of it is cultural, genetic or phenotypical. Some of it means having grown up with it regardless of what classical technique you choose.[end of quote]
yes, but if you have good technique,and you have musicality,and have absorbed the cultural style,you will be able to express your creativity and your musicality and never be frustrated by lack of technique,technique should never be an end in itself but just an enabler to allow the player,to acheive more creativity,and use the instrument to its full potential.
In the world of art, sculpture etc,the artist hones his skills, so that he can acheive what his eye desires,It should be this way with music, a means to an end,technique is only a tool,it can help,but technique without musicality is useless,one may as well play the typewriter.
JohnFahey,was an example of a guitarist,who made very good and interesting music without being technically very adept,but if he had a better technique,I believe[imo],he could have acheived more musically,however people like Paganini, leave me cold,as far as I am concerned all technique and no musicality,Iwould rather listen to John Fahey than Paganini.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 01:00 PM

Frank, I think you are correct. I was Classiclly trained for 10 years and when I discovered fiddle and Irish music, it took me another 10 years to sound like a fiddler instead of a Classical player doing tunes.

I can demonstrate the difference but damned if I can put it in words.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 12:31 PM

Hi Captain,

Over the years, I have noticed something which I thought was strange and interesting. There are people like Johnny "Ti Jean" Carignan who seemed to do the bow hold "all wrong" according to some classical players. Yet, his feeling and interpretation seemed to be more important than his technique which was prodigious (though some called it "wrong").

I have noticed that some folks who pick up Irish playing don't have the feel. There is something in the genes or phenotypes, I think, that emanates from the Irish culture. The people who pick it up "second hand" may be playing correctly and getting a good tone but their playing doesn't "lilt"or dance. It's like the classical musician who attempts to play jazz. It doesn't "swing". Much of this is subjective and there will be disagreement on this area of interpretation. OTOH, I enjoy very much Mairead Nesbitt's playing with Celtic Woman because she seems to successfully do both. She plays with a very "Irish" feel, in my opinion, with a flawless classical technique.

This is by way of saying that just because you have good classical technique does not automatically mean you can play every type of music on the violin or fiddle. Some of it is cultural, genetic or phenotypical. Some of it means having grown up with it regardless of what classical technique you choose.

I know of a lady who plays correctly with all the notes and ornaments but she comes from a different world of Scottish fiddling and it doesn't translate to Irish. She can articulate the crans and ornaments with long bows or do the Donegal trebling but it just doesn't sound Irish
to me. It doesn't lilt or dance.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Dec 07 - 11:46 AM

Foolestroupe[hope i havent misunderstood you],what you say is partly true,but in certain styles of irish fiddle playing, left hand ornamentation[cuts,rolls etc]are executed ,while the bow is on the string,and moving smoothly in one direction Julia Clifford is a good example.
in american old thyme fiddle playing,seperate bows,used withslurred pairs,seems to be quite common,this is also quite common in I

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:06 PM

There are 2 basic ways to get 'a lot of notes in a short time' from many instruments.

You can finger the notes while either letting the 'exciting action' run, or stop/start for each note.

On the violin/fiddle, this is done with the bow (the exciter).

On the tin whistle, you can tongue each note (stop/strting teh exciter - the breath), or just let the fingers do all the work while the exciter keeps going. It's actually easier to not tongue while doing trills, 'slid notes', cranning, etc.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:46 PM

I think it was one of the Siobhan Peoples' videos that showed her slurring quite a bit in one fast number. I was actually surprised to see that from all I'd read.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 12:34 PM

with respect,several studies have been made of both Sligo and Munster fiddlers by David Lyth,.The Sligo fiddlers were Micheal Coleman,Paddy Killoran,and James Morrison,all three used slurred bowing,quite often a seperate note followed by two, three or four[or occasionally five or six] on an up bow.
David Lyth gives detailed analysis of their trebling[bowing ornamentation],the munster fiddlers also use one seperate and two three, four, five, or six on an up bow,neither Sligo or Munster fiddlers bow every note throughout a tune seperately.
these book are available through Comhaltas,They give detailed info om bowing styles and ornamentation,including rolls and trebles.
the only style where seperate bows are used all through a tune is Donegal,and that is only true of some Donegal fiddlers,as can be seen from the videos[mentioned earlier] in the thread which included Siobhan Peoples,Danny Meehan,Vincent Campbell.,
MattCranitch,Geoff Bowen,PaulMcnevin,have all brought out tutors,with suggested bowing,it is extremely rare in these transcriptions to find a peice of music with no slurred bowing.
Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 10:50 AM

It should be fairly obvious that if you're playing a fast fiddle tune, you either have to slur lots of notes or use separate bows, and at the speed you'll have to go, you won't have time for the whole bow for each note. I don't claim to be an expert at any kind of fiddle playing, but I'd think it's better in general to use lots of separate bows, rather than slur the notes--unless in a air, waltz, or something similar. I actually far prefer the airs, waltzes etc.--but that's a separate issue.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Roisin Ban
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

Again, thanks for these additional observations and reference.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 12:23 PM

on the string bowing,is a feature of certain irish styles,sliabh luchra fiddlers,Padraig O Keefe and Julia Clifford come to mind.It depends which style you wish to play in[I would recommend Geoff Bowens book How to play folk fiddle,which deals with on the string bowing,and many different traditional styles.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: s&r
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

I was told this years ago - it means don't apply excessive pressure with the bow. If you hold the bow at the frog the weight of the bow will give enough pressure for bowing. Like all maxims, there are exceptions.

If you press hard and bow slow the result will be a scraping sound - nasty. This is one reason that many fiddlers avoid playing at the heel - the leverage from the weight of the bow is greater there. You will learn with long bows to press with the index at the tip of the bow, and with the pinkie at the heel.

Stu

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Roisin Ban
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:59 AM

Many thanks to everyone who took the time to contribute. In addition to the hints and tips, which I'll experiment with, what's the deal with "the fiddle holds the bow"? Do you allow the bow to "rest" on the strings, or do you consciously "apply" it (if you see what I mean; by "rest" I mean, if the fiddle suddenly disappeared your bow would drop down a bit, whereas with "apply" I mean if the same thing happened your bow wouldnt dip at all)? Maybe my head's a bit looser than my wrusts,

Roisin

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 11:44 PM

I suppose some of you already know about this website: Irish Fiddle dot com, but I hope the original posted will come back in and see this. There is a LOT of info on there which might be helpful, including some tunes to learn (if you have the right plug-in.)

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 02:59 PM

Frank ,what type of music do you wish to play?.
I have played with good players of Irish TRAD, English trad,Scottish trad ,and jazz players too,that have all used a classical hold or something very similiar.
You refer to a scratch in the sound,this can be obtained by pressure from the index finger on the bow,having a classical hold is not going to prevent you from getting that scratch.
however, everyone has to find that which they are comfortable with.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 12:40 PM

Yes, Frank, that seems to work. By the way, sparticus was being funny about Siobhan (Shi-vawn) because, even though it's hard to tell in that video, the fiddler is a She.:-)

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 11:38 AM

Kat, that's what I've decided is the way to go. Find your own way.

Sedayne that's pretty amazing. I knew a bicycle rider in the circus who had one leg.

Django had two fingers.

Moral: If it's in you, it'll come out no matter what.

Frank

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Here's a guy with one arm:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SYmqC5XznEw

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 02:23 AM

Has Siobhan had the operation?

Merry Christmas.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 10:42 PM

Frank, you've put lots more study into this than I ever thought of!:-) I know, even classically trained, I was taught to use my elbow to help control which string the bow was working; but the real work was in the wrist and the fingers on the bow, as you pointed out. I had the luck to also watch my dad fiddle, so I grew up *hearing* both. To be honest, I never thought twice about how to hold the bow. I did it the way my teachers explained and I have finally gotten into fiddling more and the few people who have heard me in the past year or so say I don't sound half-bad, so something must be alright, no matter how I'm holding it!**bg** To anyone, I say just do what works best for you.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 09:30 PM

Kat, Siobhan Peoples seems to hold his elbow moderately high and doesn't have quite
the perpendicular bow to the bridge. This is interesting because he gets a scratch
which has a bite to it. It's a mellow sound. Probably a French fiddle.

I loved the comment about "the young people" being "all notes and no music".

Now Danny Meehan seems to play from the elbow rather than a lot of wrist motion.
His bow is all over the board which makes it scratchy but this is desirable with some
fiddlers. Vincent Campbell does the same bowing on his mazurka, not really parallel
like the classical folks.

Violet Hensley from the Ozarks is an inspiration. Fiddlers do live longer!

I've noticed something else. Regardless of how you hold the bow, there is a built-in
lilt that the Irish fiddlers have, a kind of endemic rhythm that classical technique will
not get you. Some fiddlers lilt and others have a different motor imprint. The Hungarian fiddlers would not be adept at Irish music and probably the other way too. A lot of this
seems to come from body types. Also, I think there is a natural talent for finger dexterity that enhances the learning of the fiddle. The Russian bow hold seems more like a classical style where the stick is pinched with the bent thumb and the middle finger as a fulcrum point with the index and the pinkie guiding the bow depending on its direction. The bow rests more on the second knuckle than the first as in French bowing styles.

Tommy Jarrell was anything but a classical player and yet in his idiom produced influential followers of his Round Peak style.

Stuff Smith never seemed to use a full bow. I don't think that classical style players could get that sound automatically. Claude Williams was another one like that.

Regina Carter seems to be the Wynton Marsalis of the violin.

I think there has to be a certain built-in energy level in players to get some of the notes in at a fast tempo. This may be genetic as well as acquired.

Also, in noting bow holds, I see that some hands are more naturally adept at a comfortable playing position due to their structure.

Some players have short necks and large jowels that seem to be good for certain types of music. (Mediterranean?)

The tempos and the rhythmic styles are also seemingly influenced by hand structure and
body type. I think it really helps to be a dancer to play dance music.

Environment and starting early on the instrument seems to help some.

I am still confused as to what bow hold is best.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:27 PM

If you don't have ready access to a group and/or a fiddler to learn from/play with, check out some of the resources listed on this old thread about practice tapes, etc.

kat

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,Sharon G
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 11:53 AM

Just found this thread. (and though I love Irish fiddle music, the discussion seems to have gotten a bit detoured on the Donegal style details).

I agree bowing is very important (along with playing in tune!)
There are some good reasons to use a classical hold - it works pretty well. Some people can develop a fairly serious injury to the thumb from the "under the frog" hold (not everyone) and there are some things that are just more difficult to do with the "grab it up the stick" hold. That said, plenty of people do both of those things very capably- but I'd still suggest starting with the classical hold.

It's good to be able to use the whole bow- even dance fiddlers who play fast and furious with short bows will want to play a waltz.

Scales with all different kinds of bowing patterns can be good ground work. You learn to hear if you're in tune and you can practice any kind of tune- waltz, polka, jig, reel etc depending how you vary it. Since you don't need to think about a tune, you can really listen to the sound you're making.

Personally, for fast fiddle tunes, reels, using short bows above the mid point works for me.

One of the most important aspects of bowing is how each style of fiddling has characteristic styles- whether separate bows, double-stops, where the slurs are, speeding up the bow for accents etc. That is the part of fiddling that comes from listening and watching- every style is a separate language or dialect. So it's hard to offer general guidelines. Listen, listen, listen... and watch/ ask other fiddlers.

Hope that's helpful....

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: s&r
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 05:59 AM

You hold the fiddle. The fiddle holds the bow.

Stu

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

as a beginner I found exercises playing whole long bows useful,particuarly arpeggios ,trying to get six or eight in one bow across strings.I also practised the scales of D OR G major,eightnotes to one bow, two four note bows,then three, three, two.five and three,in as many different slurring combinations.
I also practised bowing ornamentation,by playing two semiquavers and two quavers,as if I was in jig time, eg 1and 2 3,and also 1 2and, 3 for every note of the scale starting on both up and down bows,this requires being able to play short bows quickly, again from the wrist. SO PRACTISE both long and short bows,Practise fiddle rolls,both long and short rolls,long rolls can be used to replace dotted crotchets in jig time,beginning of Morrisons jig could be played,Instead of E [ long ROLL E F#E D E ,or a four note bowing ornamentation e f#e e the first two being semiquavers or e ef#e,the middle two being semiquavers,or alternatively four notes of the same pitch, four Es,
Both these different types of ornamentation require competence with both long and short bows.HappyChristmas.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 11:41 PM

"most of the skill in playing lies in the bowing"

My dad was a classically trained violinist, who taught me a bit, so I know I'm no expert.

There is a lot of good info in this thread, you just have to be able to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: GUEST,strad
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

Well said, Jeri & Sorcha.
The main thing, to my way of thinking, is to play the notes cleanly, and not e.g. clip other adjacent strings - what my wife calls Tattie Soup.

Being a bear of very little brain, it took me a long time to change my bowing from one note one bow to being able to play three notes down one up or vice versa and similar variations. So now when I learn new tunes I try different bowing patterns. The more you try, the better player you become. Happy Christmas everyone!

Subject: RE: Fiddle Bowing
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 02:56 PM

Thank you Jeri. I was about to ask if they can just stop arguing and acting like 4 year olds yet.