Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!

Subject: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:05 AM

I hear that the BBC is going to bleep out the word "faggot" from the song so as not to offend the gay community.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:14 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:21 AM

They won't need to censor McGowan though, his diction says it all - not!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=NrAwK9juhhY

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:22 AM

Seems it just applies to Radio 1 - 'a station by station decision'

'But the ban does not apply across the BBC. Radio 2 said it would be playing the full version of the track.'

BBC News 24

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The PA
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:23 AM

I cant imagine the usual Radio 1 audience being the slightest bit interested in this at all. The word 'fagot' is quite polite in comparison to some of the expressions I've heard. Our son is 17 and has never head of the expression. Radio 2 are continuing to play the unedited version.

Another example of the world going mad I'm afraid. Schools not allowed to perform the traditional nativity play, changing the name of Christmas to Winterfest for fear of offending someone somewhere to name but two.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mark Dowding
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:38 AM

I'm sure the word "f**k" which seems to be common place across the airwaves these days causes more offence.

Cheers
Mark

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 06:58 AM

Radio 1 attempts to be a 'youth' station; the official title for the station's anniversary celebrations, "Established 1967", doesn't even mention the actual age the station is going to be!

Like PA I can't imagine that the bulk of its target audience are even familiar with the term, which is essentially a North American (or Australian?) derogatory word leading to a lot of suprised looks in the US to 'I'm going to try and find some fags' when needing a cigarette :)

alternatively I'm very fond of them with onion gravy :)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:01 AM

"They won't need to censor McGowan though, his diction says it all - not!"

I've heard that McGowan is one his best generations lyric writers. After listening to the Pogues albums, I couldn't possibly say.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:04 AM

Crazy decision.

Dave

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:08 AM

So, the drug references can stay (you're a bum, you're a punk, you're an old slut on junk), but the 'cheap lousy faggot' has to be blanked... says it all really. For the BBC, drugs are acceptable, being gay isn't.

LTS

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:14 AM

The BBC Radio 1 message board must be in melt-down!

Trying to access the question on the home page 'Is the BBC right to edit lyrics?' just gets a webpage unobtainable message!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:24 AM

From a BBC website poll:
Should radio stations censor The Pogues' Fairytale of New York?
Yes
3.74%
No
96.26%

No point in getting worked up about it. I think this is pretty obviously a publicity stunt by BBC 1, to remind people it exists.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: theleveller
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 07:28 AM

Why don't they play Bottle of Smoke instead?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

Isn't the word Mick used in this song as a generic description for an Irishman?
In my mind this is even more insulting than the word that is being blanked out.
I suspect that there may be more homosexuals than Irishmen working at the BBC.
With apologies to Terry Wogan [Sir]
Giok

Subject: Lyr Add: BOYS FROM THE COUNTY HELL (The Pogues)
From: Shaneo
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:36 AM

If the really wanted to stir it up, they could play ''The Boys From The County Hell'', mighty song' Fairytale hasn't got a patch on this one.

On the first day of March it was raining
It was raining worse than anything that I have ever seen
I drank ten pints of beer and I cursed all the people there
And I wish that all this raining would stop falling down on me

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

At the time I was working for a landlord
And he was the meanest bastard that you have ever seen
And to lose a single penny would grieve him awful sore
And he was a miserable bollocks and a bitch's bastard's whore

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

I recall we took care of him one sunday
We got him out the back and we broke his fucking balls
And maybe that was dreaming and maybe that was real
But all I know is I left that place without a penny or fuck all

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

But now I've the most charming of verandahs
I sit and watch the junkies, the drunks, the pimps, the whores
Five green bottles sitting on the floor
I wish to christ, I wish to christ
That I had fifteen more

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

And it's lend me ten pounds, I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

The boys and me are drunk and looking for you
We'll eat your frigging entrails and we won't give a damn
Me daddy was a blue shirt and my mother a madam
And my brother earned his medals at mai lei in vietnam

And it's lend me ten pounds and I'll buy you a drink
And mother wake me early in the morning

On the first day of march it was raining
It was raining worse than anything that I have ever seen
Stay on the other side of the road
'cause you can never tell
We've a thirst like a gang of devils
We're the boys of the county hell

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:44 AM

I wish they would leave it off the playlist altogether, along with Slade and Roy Wood and all the rest that they pull out every year at Christmas!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Ruth at work
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:06 AM

"Isn't the word Mick used in this song as a generic description for an Irishman?"

I don't think so...

Subject: Lyr Add: FAIRYTALE OF NEW YORK (The Pogues)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:10 AM

As far as I can see, there is no 'Mick' in the song... see?

It was Christmas Eve babe
In the drunk tank
An old man said to me, won't see another one
And then he sang a song
The Rare Old Mountain Dew
I turned my face away
And dreamed about you

Got on a lucky one
Came in eighteen to one
I've got a feeling
This year's for me and you
So happy Christmas
I love you baby
I can see a better time
When all our dreams come true

They've got cars big as bars
They've got rivers of gold
But the wind goes right through you
It's no place for the old
When you first took my hand
On a cold Christmas Eve
You promised me
Broadway was waiting for me

You were handsome
You were pretty
Queen of New York City
When the band finished playing
They howled out for more
Sinatra was swinging,
All the drunks they were singing
We kissed on a corner
Then danced through the night

The boys of the NYPD choir
Were singing "Galway Bay"
And the bells were ringing out
For Christmas day

You're a bum
You're a punk
You're an old slut on junk
Lying there almost dead on a drip in that bed
You scumbag, you maggot
You cheap lousy faggot
Happy Christmas your arse
I pray God it's our last

I could have been someone
Well so could anyone
You took my dreams from me
When I first found you
I kept them with me babe
I put them with my own
Can't make it all alone
I've built my dreams around you


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
copyright 1988 Shane MacGowan & Jem Finer

LTS

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:20 AM

Well I heard it used in the fashion I described in some song of that ilk.
I am just a confused old man, so can't remember which one. However my point is still valid, the deletion is selective. Especially when the word arse follows soon after the faggot one.
It seems that some PC is more important than other PCs.
G

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:29 AM

I wish they would leave it off the playlist altogether, along with Slade and Roy Wood and all the rest that they pull out every year at Christmas

And every year you always get someone who, never having actually listened to it, hasn't a clue what it's about.

Thanks to LTS for reproducing it (yet again). FTONY describes exactly what happened to the hopes and dreams of Irish (and other) immigrants to the 'land of the free'. It needs to be compulsory listening for all, especially the punks, bums and sluts on junk who walk around in suits at the BBC.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 09:33 AM

Goik (or should that be 'Jock'?!), I think it's time you had a lie down and took your tablets again...

But you're right, selective deletion is not good.. it should be all or nothing and if you're giving the message that drug taking is OK but being a faggot isn't then it's a bad message.

Besides, what's wrong with being a small bundle of firewood anyway?

LTS

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:13 AM

Or a Savoury Duck come to that.

G.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:16 AM

I read somewhere recently (Radio Times?) that when the song was done live on TOTP, they made Kirsty MacColl sing "ass" instead of "arse". Why this should be considered less offensive, I really can't imagine. And anyway, as with the above examples) the whole point about that verse is that it's supposed to be insulting, and if you remove any offensive terms it kind of misses the point.

I suppose it could be argued that when they censor "faggot", what they're objecting to is its use as a term of abuse - after all, the n-word is banned not because it's not OK to be black, but because it's not OK to make skin colour the focus of an insult.

But I wouldn't be convinced that this is the reason.

Marje

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Almost any word or name can be used as a term of abuse... the words 'bless you' when said with the right inflection (Whoopi Goldberg in 'Sister Act' for instance) can mean exactly the opposite.

I know that we're supposed to live and learn, and that what was acceptable in the past might not be so now, but in this day and age, is it really necessary to censor so much? If they MUST censor, I'd favour more the removal of the drug references than the use of 'faggot', which is less well known. Heaven forefend that a child should look it up in a dictionary.

LTS

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,everyone loves christmas
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:46 AM

god people - talk about PC overload, only last week I was reading about a 70 something grandad being fired as Santa for saying "Ho Ho Ho" - what the hekk is wrong with people today!!! Definition of PC - sad old grumpy idiots who have way too much time on their hands...why not ban the word Fairy from the title, I mean HOW OFFENSIVE!!!!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Emma B
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 10:57 AM

Well good old fair-minded Auntie Beeb at Radio 1 apparently edited out 'slut' too.

Was it the comedy programme 'I'm sorry I haven't a clue' that took totally innocuous songs and, by introducing well timed 'bleeps', created something quite hilariously different

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Brakn
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:08 AM

Radio 1 is probably the one station I will not listen to and I don't think I know anyone who does. It lost it's main audience years ago. The djs are in love with themselves and not the music.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:14 AM

It was Non-Denominational Winter Holiday Eve infant
In the inebriated container
A mature person said to me, won't see another one
And then he sang a song
The Uncommon Not getting any younger Peak Dew
I turned my countenance away
And dreamed about you

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Ruth still at work
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:14 AM

If they're gonna get tetchy, surely it's the NYPD choir which ought to be edited out, as there's no such thing.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,harrys girls
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:27 AM

I reckon the song should be called the Beep of Beep Beep because I have made a point of editing out all insults in the name of political correctness and it now goes like this...



It was BEEPmas Eve BEEP
In the BEEP tank
A BEEP BEEP said to me, won't see another one
And then he BEEPED a BEEP
The BEEP Old Mountain Dew
I turned my face a BEEP

And BEEPed about BEEP

BEEP I'm on a lucky one
Came in eighteen to one
I've got a BEEPing

This year's for me and you
So happy BEEP BEEP
I BEEP you BEEPby
I can see a better time
When all our BEEPs come true

They've got cars big as BEEPs
They've got rivers of BEEP
But the wind goes right through you
It's no place for the BEEP

When you first took my BEEP

On a cold BEEPmas Eve
You promised me
Broadway was waiting for me

You were BEEPsome
You were BEEPy
BEEP of New York City
When the band finished playing
They BEEPED up the mall

Sinatra was BEEPing,
All the BEEPs they were BEEPing
We BEEPed on a corner
Then BEEPed through the night

The boys of the NYPD choir
Were singing "Galway Bay"
And the bells were ringing out
For BEEPmas day

You're a BEEP
You're a BEEP
You're an old BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP
BEEPing there almost BEEP on a BEEP in that BEEP
You BEEP BEEP, you BEEP BEEP
You BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP
Happy BEEPmas your BEEP
I pray BEEP it's our last

I could have been someone
Well so could anyone
You took my dreams from me
When I first found you
I kept them with me BEEP

I put them with my own
Can't make it all alone
I've built my dreams around you

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,me again
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 11:31 AM

Mr Happy - you are a scream, I love it, send that to Radio 1 - PLEASE!!!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Rog Peek
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:02 PM

Can't see what the BBC has against faggots, they're delicios!

Ingredients for faggots

pigs liver 450 gm
onions 2 pc
breadcrumbs 100 gm
suet 75 gm
chopped sage 2 tsp
salt   sq
pepper   sq

How to make faggots

Mince the liver and onions into a mixing bowl, this can be as fine or as coarse to suit your own tastes
Add the breadcrumbs, chopped suet, sage and season with the salt and pepper (it should be quite peppery)
Shape the mixture into small balls, if the mixture is too wet more breadcrumbs should be added
Place onto a greased oven tin and bake in moderate oven for about 30 minutes
Remove faggots and add boiling water and a little flour to the tin to make gravy.

Rog

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: gnomad
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:20 PM

Radio 4 have just reported that radio 1 have just reversed their decision.

I am not fond of this record (prefer other versions) but I approve the reversal.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

I thought it was a gay song with that whole "Queen of New York" thing going on but I can't see anything wrong with calling someone a bundle of sticks!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:25 PM

Yes, Andy Parfitt having listened to the track has decided it's not homophobic after all. Which it isn't.
Is there another version of FTONY?
Could anyone other than MacGowan/MacColl do it?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Folkiedave
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:40 PM

Errrr...Christy Moore has recorded it. (On the CD Live at the Point).

I didn't have the Pogue's version anyway.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 12:47 PM

According to Wikipedia, Cait O'Riordan was originally intended to sing the female part but left the Pogues before the song was completed. I could imagine her doing a good job.

How about Cliff Richard/Kate Rusby?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:09 PM

I was thinking more..... Elton John!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Geoff Wallis
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:20 PM

There are numerous cover versions, several of which involve self-censorship by the musicians concerned.

There are two plausible candidates for the worst version.

1) The blessed St Ronan of Keating's offering changed 'cheap lousy faggot' to 'you're cheap and you're haggard' and his accomplice in the crime was Máire (aka Moya) Brennan of Clannad. It sold like lead courgettes.

2) The Irish Tenors' rendition omitted the crucial verse concerned, all in the interest of maintaining the trio's clean-living, chicken-in-a-basket and send-them-home-to-their-mums-in-clean-underwear audience.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:31 PM

I'd be happy if they banned it altogether. The worst record ever made. In my humble opinion.   :-)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: MuddleC
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:38 PM

I think that the final word must rest with the Catholic Church..
and their Craggy Island spokesman,err, spokespriest?
'Father Jack, what do you think about dis sorta ting?'
>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Arse!...Feck!...Gurls!...Drink!"

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: skarpi
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

beeb,beeb,beeb,beeb,beeb.

beeb,beeb,beeb,

beeb

beeb, beeb ,beebed,beed,beebeds.

beeb, beeb ,


.beeb.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: jacqui.c
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 02:49 PM

I love the song but, having heard it done by a couple of other performers must say that the only version I like is the Pogues and Kirsty.

Terrific tune, whatever the words.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: s&r
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

They've withdrawn the censorship on the grounds that the audience have sufficient wisdom to realise that the words will not cause offence in context... or something like that.

Stu

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Tootler
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:13 PM

They've withdrawn the censorship on the grounds that the audience have sufficient wisdom to realise that the words will not cause offence in context... or something like that.

Or:

They've demonstrated that they are a bunch of complete pillocks and are trying to save face.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: CET
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 05:52 PM

Something my cat coughed up on the rug could sing it better than Shane McGowan. I listened to a few seconds of the You Tube video, and was beginning to feel ill and had to turn it off so I never got to hear Kirsty MacColl. Great song, though.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 07 - 08:49 PM

I like Shane's songs. They seem to me, very poetic.

I remember years ago Karl Dallas wondering in print in the Melody Maker, why the Irish were so keen to embrace the national stereotypes in folksong; at the very time the American black people were turning their backs on blues songs, with their crude racial stereotypes.

Either way, you could pick a hole in Bottle of Smoke or Fairytale of New York - every line of them - for just those faults. Surely you accept it, in its totality, or not at all.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Jim Lad
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 03:35 AM

I actually like Kristy Moore's rendition of the song.
The man has talent and the song is relevant to my younger years in Australia & Canada.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Wayne
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 06:08 AM

For me, Shane MacGowan's voice may be ragged & harsh but it is also soulful and heartfelt. His version of She Moved Through The Fair is by far my favourite. Fairytale has become a bit of a Christmas cliche but it remains a superlative song. Indeed, I reckon that Shane is one of the best songwriters of the last thirty years. But then, I like Gilbert O'Sullivan so what do I know?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Hawker
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:08 AM

Now then, this has got me worried! every year on New Years eve, in our household, we burn the ashen Faggot!
Oh F*!K are we going to be raided by the PC police for this? One year we piped the faggot in and the vicar blessed it before we burned it!
I'm going straight to hell methinks!
Please somebody get a grip!
Stop the world I want to get off!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:38 AM

The Mick reference I mistakenly attributed to this song, is in Missing You by Christy Moore, a song with similar sentiments.
Giok

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:44 AM

... and if we're going to reclaim the word 'faggot' (a bundle of firewood or a tasty meat dish), then perhaps we can reclaim 'gay' as well. Most poofters seem to be as gloomy as the rest of us.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Sutherland
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:51 AM

When I was a kid in the North East of England and I, or someone else, was referred to as a "faggot" it meant that they were a source of annoyance or irritation. It was many years later that I learned that in USA it was a term used to describe a homosexual.
Anyway I think that it is a great song (for life not just for Christmas)and Christy Moore just edges it over the Pogues and Kirsty.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 07:52 AM

roflmao

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:19 AM

GUEST: clockwatcher

"Most poofters seem to be as gloomy as the rest of us"

Cut it out, whoever you are. You can make the joke without using another term of abuse. Or maybe using the term of abuse was the point of your post.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:20 AM

Aw come on pal, develop a sense of humour for fucks sake.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:24 AM

So I said to ths girl in the pub -"I suppose a Savoury duck's out of the qestion?"

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:27 AM

Homophobia is far from funny. It's ignorant, dangerous and distasteful.
As is slinging abuse at Shane MacGowan, who, however you might consider his behaviour, is undeniably a highly talented songwriter whose work (+ Jem Finer in this case) was unfairly judged by a radio station that has redeemed itself.
End of drama.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:29 AM

. . . and idiotic sniggering of an apparently heterosexual nature is equally inappropriate and distasteful.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:32 AM

I have gay friends who would piss themselves laughing at that silly wee joke.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,machree01
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:43 AM

Diane here's Christy Moore's Version.
         http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=GLqGE3C0yTQ

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:48 AM

Yes, thank you. I have heard it. In fact I have it on CD.
Christy Moore has covered a number of Shane MacGowan's songs.
The point being?
I am far more interested in getting outta here, from the cesspit of puerile, inane blokishness to which this thread has deteriorated,

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:57 AM

Byeeeeeeeeeeee

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

savoury duck....that's a Lancashire thing, isn't it? sort of cross between a haselet and a faggot. I haven't heard about them for ages, much less seen one.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:00 AM

By the way, isn't that the Penguin Cafe Orchestra on the MFI advert?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:11 AM

Just listened to the Christy Moore version - he's a fine singer but it's the interaction between Kirsty McColl and Shane McGowan that really makes the Pogues version number 1 for me!

btw - does it really say Fairytale of New York - The POPES & Shane McGowan Dublin, 06 on youtube??? LOL!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:19 AM

Thanks for the youtube link. I haven't heard Christy Moore sing that song before so I've really enjoyed listening to it - just wish his mouth was moving in time to the words on that video!

I'm a Shane MacGowan fan, a Christy Moore fan and a Kirsty MacColl fan so I like both versions but Shane MacGowan wins!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:24 AM

Here's Shane + Popes + his mum.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Rog Peek
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:34 AM

In my opinion, Shane McGowan has written some great songs, of which this is one. I've not heard it done better than the version which features himself and Kirsty McColl, after all, if you were looking for someone to sing the part of a drunk who found himself in the drunk tank on Christmas Eve, then he would surely be your man.

Rog

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:35 AM

'weelittledrummer' - that's what I thought.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Brakn
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 10:55 AM

re MFI

Previous thread.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Barnacle (at work)
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:22 AM

It's one of my favourite all-time songs. Not just for Christmas. Shane McGowan has written some fine words and interprets them well. I do not think that any of the words in "Fairytale" were done for cheap effect, they make a strong statement and, BBC or not, my son and I will still sing it together when we are out shopping in the festive season. It does tend to keep the crowds away!!! Anyway, even the BEEB has seen the folly of its actions. Good sense prevails!!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:34 AM

Someone above told me:
"Aw come on pal, develop a sense of humour for fucks sake."

Like I've never had that demand aggressively thrust at me before.

Since writing my post above I'm pleased to tell you that I have developed a sense of humour. And you know what? That joke's still not funny.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM

I don't find The Office funny either.
Perhaps that's because it makes jokes about, and lampoons a minority.
i.e. The socially inept.
This of course proves nothing, except that different people laugh at different things, with some people even having the facility to be able to laugh at themselves.
Not as rare as it would at first appear.
G

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:06 PM

It was 'I'm Sorry, I'll Read That Again' which had fun in the '60's beeping out the lyrics of popular songs. I can remember 'It's Not Unusual' (to have 'beep' with anyone), and 'Jake The Peg (with the extra 'beep').

Like so much in that programme, (and indeed like me), it was puerile, potentially offensive and has not stood the test of time, but you had to be there. I can remember an entire pub bar emptying for half an hour so that people could sit in their cars and listen to it. I don't think the landlord ever quite realised what was going on.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Homerssohn
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:17 PM

To paraphrase Mr Kahn:

I ain't afraid of the swearing
I ain't afraid of the banter
I ain't afraid of the teasing
I'm afraid of the self-righteous protecting my rights.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: NormanD
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:21 PM

'Giok' - it's not about this or that particular joke, it's about using the word "poofter" to get a laugh, or calling somebody that. That is just plain insulting.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,sparticus
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

At least it keeps Shane in beer money for the festive season. Wish he'd spend some of it at the dentist. The Tooth Fairy Tale of New York could well be a follow up.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:39 PM

MTV UK's music channels VH1 UK and TMF UK have also censored the video for 2007, removing not only the words "faggot" and "slut", but also "arse", despite non-MTV owned music channels playing it uncut. (excluding the BBC, of course!!)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 03:32 PM

I'm wondering what it the BBC has against a bundle of twigs, which is, after all, what a faggot is.... :-P

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: goatfell
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:57 PM

where I come from a FAGGOT is some meat dish, like meatballs. So why is that offencive to Gays, I mean this is Britian and NOT AMERICA.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

The 'character' being called a faggot 'seems' openly hetro, IMO.
... unless there is some subtext we're missing out on....

It was heading for number 1 in the download charts, last time I looked

B.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 07:18 PM

No point in getting worked up about it. I think this is pretty obviously a publicity stunt by BBC 1, to remind people it exists.

And I think the truth of that has been demonstrated by what happened next: BBC backs down on plan to censor 'Fairytale of New York'

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:25 AM

Just caught up, apparently the ban has been lifted, according to the BBC website.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 08:16 AM

.... good news; I'll be able to sing one of my favourite songs again, without leaving out the line:

"See the faggot with the earing and the makeup, yea buddy that's his own hair"

... save us from the censorship police

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:02 AM

I always thought it was because the BBC didn't want to upset its board of directors :-)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:12 AM

I wonder if 'Guest'(9.02am) has taken in the original date of this post?
But I wonder even more why I am looking at the Mudcat Forum at 2pm on Christmas Day.
Any road up (or 'anyway' for our American readers) Fairy Tale Of New York has been played uncensored on the BBC and everywhere else for many years now, to the great enjoymanet of all.
And long may it be so.
Merry Christmas to all!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Roberts
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:13 AM

Enjoymanet = enjoyment
- Typo Police.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Dec 09 - 09:55 AM

Are they going to bleep out "fairy" also?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 02:21 PM

Worth a read - an opinion piece:

'F' word in Fairtytale of New York

"The Christmas party pooper has, over the centuries, taken different guises.

"The classic Dickensian scrooge wore an imposing hat and a grimace and said "bah humbug".

"The grinch is a disgruntled green creature written by Dr Seuss who steals Christmas.

"But the modern day scourge of Christmas has no candle, imposing hat or green fur.

"Instead, they have a well-hammered keyboard in front of them, wear the most po of all po-faces and say:

    'Stop playing the Fairytale of New York because it offends me and my LGBTQI+ and non-binary friends'."

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 02:23 PM

F word... "Fairy"...???

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:11 PM

F word as in, 'If you see Kay (eff-u-cee-kay), tell her I want to see her'.

Let me tell you, straight up (no pun intended) that The Pogues are one of my all-time fave bands. I play their CD's over and over and over. Love 'em. I never thought that the use of the word "faggot" in the context of the song was intended as a gay slur, but just another name to throw at each other. I guess I should have thought of it being the gay equivalent of the n-word, but the context of the song and the fact that the only time I have ever heard men use the word "faggot" has been some of my gay friends talking about themselves or referring to their close friends, i.e. being funny, means that I tend not to see the word as a hate word.

I know it can be used by homophobic rednecks, but in fact, I don't remember anyone flinging it around as an insult in my social world.

I remember when I was a lot younger being really upset when a gay friend first told me why the word is used - witch burning context, using gay people as fuel for the fire.

But back to the article I linked to, I think it was the swear word firstly, and then the word "faggot" which the journalist was writing an opinion about.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:21 PM

I'm glad I was a schoolboy in the 1960s to 70s...
I got to use a lot of swear words and insults now on the official banned list...

.. of course there are two swear words considered so bad back in my day,
which have become so watered down by over use,
I can now say one of them in front of my old mum...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 05:50 PM

"I don't remember anyone flinging it around as an insult in my social world."

I doubt there is a male born in the 20th Century in the English-speaking world who didn't hear it flung around as an insult - but it is one of those words that those of us with any pretense of respectability didn't use in front of females.

I've never looked into it, but that story of the witch-burning, etc., sounds like folk-etymology to me .....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,ripov
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:25 PM

As peoples ways change, past behaviours are forgotten. To throw a bit of light on usage in earlier times, see "fagging" in wikipaedia. Strange that no-one has mentioned this (in my youth) normal usage of the word. Mebbe I'm just tooo old?

Whether the homosexual connotations are earlier must be a matter of conjecture.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:33 PM

All I can say, is me and my mates in provincial South West England all boys grammar school
shunned American imperialist swear-words on principle...
I still do...

We had our own perfectly good [though now rightly unacceptable] terms for each other such as "bender" and "bumboy".
Which I'd argue were relatively comical,
and lacked the depth of sheer homophobic hatred embedded in USA use of "faggot"...???

Besides which a faggot is a popular savoury meal round these west country parts...

As I recall, actual homosexual activity was as far as we could see completely unknown amongst our school community
We assumed that was more prevalent in exclusive posh public schools...

By the mid 70s, when we did actually have gay friends in bands and youth theatre,
no big deal - we came of age via glam rock and popular youth media depictions
of fashionable androginy and bisexuality...

Us straight and gay college mates camping it up together in small villages
just to wind up the tory young farmers was great sport...

...until they started getting violent....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:40 PM

I was glad that Dave Sunderland pointed out in his 19Dec07 post : "When I was a kid in the North East of England and I, or someone else, was referred to as a "faggot" it meant that they were a source of annoyance or irritation. It was many years later that I learned that in USA it was a term used to describe a homosexual...."

My late Mother, well educated and well spoken, and born 1923 in West Aussie, occasionally used the expression when one of her cats was being exceedingly frustratingly annoying!! She had nothing against gay folks, (.... but the American culture that was taking us over post WWII, was quite another thing!)

So cultural context and country of origin is everything, eh.

Merry Bah-Humbug!!

Cheers, R-J
Down Under

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:43 PM

I think that in my childhood a (old) "faggot" would have been an unkindly term for an old woman. I'm not sure if it was used as a more general insult.

I didn't become aware of the homosexual meaning until I started on the Internet. I commented somewhere that "I could do with a fag". UK meaning in that context would be a cigarette but some Americans had a different interpretation.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: rich-joy
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 06:54 PM

Yes, down under in Aust, "fags" were either cigarettes, or, taken from books re English public schoolboys : were lower form slaves to the upper form elite.

R-J

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:09 PM

Yes and when you say you're on twenty fags a day, they look at you with disbelief...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 07:44 PM

Somewhat related, after viewing an episode of Love Thy Neighbour on youtube a couple of weeks ago,
me and the mrs agreed some of it was still fairly funny,
whilst having a good serious debate on the obvious issues related to this well out dated sit com...

Some quick research did turn up a fact that the term "n1gn0g" [look it up if you want..]
is actually much older in English colloquial usage,
predating it's popular adoption by racists...

Though anyone stubbornly insisting on still saying it in public
supposedly in it's origional intended meaning,
is just asking for trouble...

That's the sort of thing a sneaky covert racist would do...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 18 - 09:24 PM

We always believed at school that you could tell a homosexual by the fact that he smoked tipped fags.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:45 AM

Confession: I skimmed the news article that I linked to fairly quickly and I assumed that the f-word referred to was the swear word, but then thinking throughout the day I couldn't remember if the swear word was in the song.

When I read the article I thought the journalist started writing about the swear word and changed course slightly to write about the word "faggot" but now I realise that that was what the main intent of the article.

It was early. I hadn't had my first caffeine fix.

Apologies.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 06:25 AM

Recently seen the making of "Fairytale of New York" ~ documentary with a tear in me eye ~ UK stores (food) are playing this over and over (on loop I assume!!) and certainly Shane must be laughing all the way to the bank (Christmas 2018)

The "f" word is faggot ~ which in UK had a number of meanings ~ but banned for its US meaning (I assume) of homosexual ~ other old meanings were sticks for firewood (or kindling) and a sort of sausage (German?) and old faggott) derisory term for an old woman!

Anyway the documentary is very good and the 2yrs it took in the making and source or inspiration for this undoubted masterpiece and cash cow ~ really upset that Kirsty MacColl is no longer with us in such a tragic accident

Brilliant
Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 11:05 AM

I find the idea of this song being played in stores really depressing.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:10 PM

Somebody decides that a word is associated with homosexuality and the world must not use it?????????????????????????????????????????

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM

They do so with gay abandon, Bonzo.

Now I am just nipping out to roll a fag...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:05 PM

This post was started Over 10 years ago,The song has been sung in its entirety with no censorship- by the B.B.C for Many years !!!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:07 PM

Perhaps the beeb faggot to censor it...???

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Helen
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 01:30 PM

r.padgett,

I can't listen to Kirsty McColl without lamenting her loss.

I bought a multi-CD set of The Pogues and there are different versions of Fairytale of NY from the earliest tentative demo tape through to the last version. I haven't seen the doco but I think it would be interesting. The first female singer was not Kirsty McColl, and the change of singer changed the feeling of the song for me. She nailed it - of course.

I reopened the thread just because I read the article that I linked to on the Oz ABC news site. If you haven't read that article yet, it was a worthwhile opinion piece.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:07 PM

Yes Helen ~ first singer per documentary was Pogues own female singer ~ the documentary really is enlightening and the remaking of the song a revelation too

Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM

Yes I watched the documentary on BBC4 a couple of days ago. It was very good. So if you have not seen it I imagine it will be on iplayer at the moment.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 03:55 PM

While the use in the song is clearly meant as a casual pejorative (and I presume in it's modern American sense), historically it didn't have that meaning in British English.

Patridge gives =baggage, a pejorative applied to a woman (ca1600); faggot/little faggot=applied to a child(ca 1859).

(other uses too: as the meaty delicacy, also butchers' oddments (ca 1850), also a man mustered but not yet enrolled (C17-19) and later a man hired to appear on a muster/muster roll(C18-19))

Mick

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 04:37 PM

Now, I have no idea what Shane was thinking - but generally in North America, "faggot" is not a term a woman would throw at a man without having some reason to imply that he is not entirely heterosexual. It's just not a pejorative that women use casually - in my limited, sheltered, protected, bubble-wrapped experience.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:10 PM

In the context of the song I don't think there's any implication of him being not entirely heterosexual. A dysfunctional, disillusioned couple, whose early romantic dreams didn't turn out the way they were intending, trading insults. That's how I hear it in the UK.

Mick

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 07:49 PM

As I say, I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups ....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:25 PM

Maybe not a term a North American woman would use without that implication, meself, but this isn't a North American woman using it. Or a North American man writing it.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 16 Dec 18 - 08:27 PM

Which is why I say, "I don't know what Shane had in mind; I'm just talking about general usage of the word itself - it's just not a word a North American woman would be likely to direct to a man without something behind it. Having said that - I don't know anything about New York Irish immigrant women in their cups .... "

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:34 AM

When I was young in the 70s 80s it was pretty common for folks to just call someone a poof or homo etc just as a general insult. You didn't really hear the word faggot in that context as it is US usage. But this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there. To me though in the song she isn't suggesting he is a homosexual. She is simply insulting him. Just as she calls him an arse and a scumbag. Not PC in the least and terrible I know - but implying someone was homosexual was a common insult. So seems pretty realistic lyric to me.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 11:59 AM

In context of the song, she is so contemptuous of what she angrily regards as such a weak useless man
that she is hurling the the word faggot at him to insult his masculinity...?????


When I was 14 or 15 my maths teacher hurled the blackboard duster at me,
and followed up by calling me a long haired poof in front of my class mates...

As if that would stop me mucking about in class...
I thought it was hilarious that he'd got so angry...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 12:12 PM

'Fairytale of New York' must be the most depressing and miserable 'Christmas' song ever. And poor substance-abusing Shane badly needed a dentist (I read that eventually he did get his teeth seen to!) The video is always in black and white, and while the words are, "The boys of the NYPD choir were singing Galway Bay" they're not, they're playing bagpipes.

However, I can't resist it. I grab the remote and turn the sound right up, and sing along.
Must be because I'm half Irish.

As a child, the word 'faggot' meant an unsavoury woman, not a gay man.

In Norwich, Lollards were burned at the stake, and had to carry a 'faggot' or 'fardel' to the place where the burnings took place.
It's said that the ghost of a young woman carrying her faggot can sometimes be seen at night creeping along near Lollards Pit. Brr!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:02 PM

People seem to be misinterpreting what I'm saying, so I guess I'm not making myself clear: I'm NOT commenting on the meaning of the song, or whether the term "faggot" is being misused or used correctly in the song - all I'm saying is that for a North American, it is unusual in the extreme to hear a woman use that loathsome term in any context, so if you do hear a woman use it, you assume that she has some particular reason for choosing it.

Some discussion of the term had developed; that's how I got onto this. I am aware, btw, that the woman in the song is meaning to insult her partner.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 01:55 PM

Senoufou/Eliza, that the lyrics convey misery is something I cannot deny.
The impact of the song for me, however, is not depressing.
Just as some of the other gritty Shane Mac (Mac or Mc? I can never remember) Gowan songs,
however tough-minded the lyrics,
end up making me feel better, not worse.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:09 PM

Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from:

"this song is supposedly someone from Ireland who's moved to the US so maybe has picked up the word there."

As for the song itself down cliched and depressing.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 02:36 PM

It's odd isn't it keberoxu? The words 'drunk tank' and 'slut on junk' repulse me, as I absolutely hate what alcohol and drugs do to people.
And the musicians playing on the video are smoking themselves to death; the air is thick with it.
Yet it must rank as one of my all-time favourite Crimbo songs.

I do think there's a real Irish flavour to the tune and the words though. I think the 'boys of the NYPD' are mostly Irish aren't they?

I also love 'Stop The Cavalry', which is about War and its horrors. But such a catchy tune.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:22 PM

Well Durex means sellotape in Australia.

The song is sublime both in execution and conception. One of Shane's finest (yes I know he had a collaborator). Up there with Pair Of Brown Eyes, Rainy Night in Soho, Sally McLennane, Old Main Drag, Summer In Siam, Fiesta. Almería once again! I know and love Almería (amazing fish market and a lovely little coffee bar just outside the entrance where we pig out on churros for breakfast)! Come on, where's your soul!

Oh my God, Rainy Night In Soho...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 03:23 PM

By the way, there is no NYPD choir.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 17 Dec 18 - 04:11 PM

No NYPD Choir? - WOW - There you go, a classic example of why you should never take anything mentioned in a "folk song" as accurately reflecting anything in real life.

So we can lump the NYPD Choir in along with those mythical "Glega Nyaff Gaffers" - pure invention.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 02:35 AM

"Apart from a reference to the NYPD Choir singing an old standard Irish Music Hall song there is nothing "Irish" about the song at all so God knows where this comes from:"

Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same. It is not the only Irish song (or at least song associated with Ireland) referenced in the lyric either. There is also the reference in the first verse about turning his face away and dreaming about her when he heard someone singing "The Rare Old Mountain Dew".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk-vig8GxBA

It was always pretty clear, at least it was to me, that the song is supposed to be about Irish immigrants in NYC. Then again I didn't first hear it in isolation. On the album it is in situ with other Irish and Irish themed songs and even with the likes of "Thousands Are Sailing" with other songs about Irish emigration to the US in the same time period.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSYkKpii1kc

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 04:23 AM

Exactly Guest. It's Irish through and through.
And thank you for that clicky, I really enjoyed 'Rare Old Mountain Dew'. (And Shane has his new teeth in that video!)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Terray
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 06:51 AM

Shane's lyric "The Boys of the NYPD Choir" might be somewhat explained here The Unofficial NYPD Choir at the third or fourth paragraph. It reminds me of a scene from The Wire, with Baltimore cops at a wake for a fallen officer singing "Body of an American" along with the Pogues on the juke box. Note a verse of Galway Bay is incorporated into BoaA and afterwards the cops are sobering up out in the street with Sally McLennane playing in the background.

Body of An American

As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking".

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:02 AM

And I wonder why Christy changed it to "the boys of the New York po-lice choir..."

But I only ever want to hear Kirsty and Shane singing this!

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 07:25 AM

Guest: Nothing Irish about it apart from it was written by an Irishman!! Yes I know he was brought up in London but an Irish immigrant family all the same.

Not only "brought up" in England, but born in England, in a suburb of Royal Tunbridge Wells, of all places. Attended the prestigious private Holmewood House Preparatory School, just down the road from my house, from where he went up to Westminster School, another bastion of the English Establishment!

If he hadn't been expelled for drug use, he might well have been a Cabinet Minister by now :-) :-)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 10:43 AM

'As for "faggot", the term was commonly used during my grade school years in Maryland (50's-60's) as a favorite epithet hurled by both girls and boys and usually preceded with "You fucking".'

Well, that surprises me, but I suppose I must stand corrected - and I should have known better than to make sweeping generalizations. I would be curious to hear from other Americans on whether they ever knew this term to used commonly by girls/women ... ?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:08 AM

So let's get this right. Just because the lyrics of a song that appears to be set about Christmas Eve in New York makes two references to Irish songs being sang by:

a) The occupants of the drunk tank, with the exception of the main male character of the song who according to the song "I turned my face away and dreamed about you". Either didn't like or know the song?

b) A non-existent NYPD Choir

There is no mention of any detail regarding the man or the woman the story is about yet for some daft and obscure reason it's:

Irish through and through

I suppose people will read whatever they want into anything as long as they leave common sense, reason and logic at the door.

One question though - There is a band mentioned and also Sinatra so why using the same logic is this not:

"Italian through and through"?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:10 AM

Shall I just state the bleedin obvious in this lengthy heated critical and culural analysis....

There aint much of a choice of suitable words that rhyme with "maggot"...

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:12 AM

Still played a lot at Christmas and makes a lot of PRS money!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:27 AM

Also... it's quite a 'cinematic' recording and performance about specific characters..

and the song is being sung in context of the bleak world these abject dysfunctional characters inhabit,
from their perspective, using their colloquial language...

A litle mini drama in song.

Getting so upset about this one particular use of the word is so narrow minded and petty,
verging on pathetic.....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Terray
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 11:37 AM

I wasn't trying to correct you, meself, just relating my experience. I should have added that it was mostly the older kids that used that vulgar phrase.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:14 PM

pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset" - personally, I'm not bothered in the least - other than by, as I say, the idea of this song being piped into stores to somehow encourage people to spend more money. I just happen to be interested in words and language - I do find that that in itself seems to upset people who don't share that interest.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:19 PM

Sorry the Guest post was me. People will read what they want into lyrics that is true. It is just as true for deciding to conclude the song isn't about Irish immigrants as it is deciding it is about Irish immigrants. Yes it doesn't say "I'm Patrick from Dublin in the lyric" and come out and say 100% it is about an Irish immigrant - but there is enough in the lyric to come to the conclusion that it is plus like I said add to that who wrote it and what other songs it is with on the album. In my opinion anyway. Others may disagree which is fair enough! People will read what they want in to a lyric so sorry for me the narrator is not turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because he does not like the song being sung - he's turning his head away and dreaming about his girl because the Irish song reminds him of her! That is certainly how I read the lyric anyway.

Incidentally the original first line was according to Cait O' Riordan "It was a wild Christmas Eve on the west coast of Clare - I looked 'cross the ocean and asked what's over there" Likewise the title was borrowed from a book about emigres returning to Ireland from the US. MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere. Which is pretty much a point to.

As to the bleeps he said he is fine with people bleeping the word if they feel they must - but the use of the word was not meant for any other reason than being realistic and showing the female character was not a nice wholesome person.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:46 PM

"pfr: I do hope that's not me you're thinking is getting "upset""

meself - I'm referring broadly to the internet enabled culture
of folks being too easily offended by trivia,
then expecting the majority rest of society to pander to their over sensitivities...

I'm completely fed up hearing about all the latest 'controversies' being stirred up..
and lazy bandwagon jumping media journalists who can't find anything more significant to write about...

..and I say that as a life-long lefty liberal progressive...

They detract from far more important issues,
and give alt right more 'evidence' to complain and propagandise about leftwing 'snowflakery'..

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 12:52 PM

pfr: I'm with you there. I wasn't sure if you were referring to the original premise of the thread or the most recent posts.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Observer
Date: 18 Dec 18 - 01:59 PM

MacGowan himself said the song could also be about any couple anywhere.

Precisely the point I made.

So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner??

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Neil D
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:29 AM

There is some discussion here of different usages/meanings of the word faggot. I remember hearing another use of the word that I've wondered about for many years. In the movie "Tom Brown's Schooldays", filmed in 1951 but set in the 1830's, whenever an upperclassman wanted a young newbie to do a chore for him, he would shout the word faggot and a young boy would come running. At the time I saw the movie, some 50 years ago, I only knew the word as meaning a chunk of firewood. I wondered if because fetching firewood was one of the most common chores that the word had become a catchall for any service required of lowerclassmen.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 02:05 AM

Someone doing chores for a senior public schoolboy was called a fag, not a faggot.

Dave H

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: r.padgett
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 03:48 AM

yes a fag not faggot doing chores at Public school (for the fee paying privileged Private schooling) in Upper class schools like Eton and Harrow

and of course fag common usage for a cigarette still in use in England!!

Ray

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 04:33 AM

'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? '

Mountain Dew meant
poteen before it meant Kentucky Moonshine, I suspect.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: keberoxu
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:13 PM

Illegitimi nun carborundum, Shane.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 19 Dec 18 - 01:21 PM

Don't think I'd worry myself too much about ol' Shane ... !

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 18 - 03:40 PM

Shane has always said it is not a Christmas Song

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 06:55 PM

Rare Old Mountain Dew predates Good Old Mountain Dew by a good few years. It was written for an Irish play in 1882, and first put on a record in 1927 - which was only a year before Bascom Langford came up with the latter song, so perhaps that was influenced by it. Very different songs though, with very different moods.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:01 PM

'Shane has always said it's not a Christmas song'.

But many of the lyrics are about Christmas:

"It was Christmas Eve babe, in the drunk tank..."
"And the bells were ringing out for Christmas Day"
"So happy Christmas, I love you baby..."
"When you first took my hand on a cold Christmas Eve"

Rather a lot about Christmas for it not to be a (sort of) Christmas song?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 07:33 PM

If Shane sez it's not a Christmas song, it's not a Christmas song.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 08:37 PM

What IS a Christmas song, exactly? I would suggest that the only definitive quality of a Christmas song is that the world thinks of it as a Christmas song. You or I or Shane might not like it, but we'd be a trio of King Canutes ....

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Terray
Date: 22 Dec 18 - 10:29 PM

McGrath, I think you were refering to
Bascom Lamar Lunsford in your last post.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 05:25 AM

To my mind, a "Christmas song" is a song about Christmas and all associated with that festival. Shane M's song is about a relationship gone sour and being lamented about - all the more poignantly because it's set on Christmas Eve, traditionally a time of love, friendship, goodwill, etc.

But a song about Christmas it ain't. Jona Lewie's "Stop The Cavalry" is in a similar position.

In an interview for Channel 4's 100 Greatest Christmas Moments, Lewie said that the song was never intended as a Christmas hit, and that it was a protest song. The line 'Wish I was at home for Christmas' as well as the brass band arrangements made it an appropriately styled song to play around Christmas time. [Wikipedia]

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:03 AM

Singer Shane MacGowan and fellow Pogue Jem Finer had for some while been tossing around an idea for a Christmas song...

The Life of a Song FT 22/23 December 2018
Fairytale

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:05 AM

I don't think Christmas songs have to mention christmas. Deck the halls is one that springs to mind.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:22 AM

Agreed, DTG. And by the same token, songs that do mention Christmas don't have to be Christmas songs.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 06:45 AM

All eight members of The Pogues return to the studio where their biggest hit - and the nation's favourite Christmas single - was recorded, to tell the story behind the song.

Fairytale 2

I Was There; Steve Lillywhite, producer of the song - and husband of Kirsty MacColl - speaks to Adrian Chiles.

Fairytale 3

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 12:54 PM

Maybe Shane was making the same kind of distinction between "Christmas Songs" and songs about Christmas that we might make about a distinction between songs like Home Lads Home and The Green Fields of France which are obviously about the War and War Songs. Would we call Christmas in the Trenches either a War Song or a Christmas Song? Anyway both songs are songs best sung around Christmas to bring out their meaning.

Of course there are songs that weren't at all about Christmas which have become Christmas songs by virtue of how people regard them, for example Jingle Bells which was a Thanksgiving Song. The opinions of the people who wrote or performed them are totally irrelevant. As is generally the case - songs are free agents, nobody owns a song except in a financial way.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: JHW
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 02:51 PM

Attaching Christmas to a song gives it airplay every year (and the excuse for seasonal renderings in folk clubs)

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: meself
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 03:17 PM

Well, it sounds like you've had a generation or two on the east side of the pond who have grown up hearing the song at Christmas, and, presumably for most of them, only at Christmas, so ... I suspect it's a done deal out there in the real world.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 18 - 04:00 PM

I've liked that song since I first heard it and never concerned myself with what time of year it was when I listened to it.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 04:25 AM

"'So "The Rare Ould Mountain Dew" reminded him of his girlfriend did it Allan - WTF was she A Kentucky Moonshiner?? '"

Seriously if folks don't want it to be about Irish immigrants fair enough then let it not be about that for you. It could be about any couple from anywhere that is plain. Just as Dirty Old Town could be about anywhere - though we know it is written about Salford. There is enough in the lyric to surmise that TFONY involves immigrants in New York though. Even the line "they have cars big as bars" suggests they are relative strangers to the US with the stereotype we hold here of the Americans having huge cars. Then there is enough in the lyric and enough in the other songs of the band and enough in the title and history to suggest the immigrants are Irish rather than from Ipswich or somewhere. If you don't want them to be then fair enough!!! It isn't really worth fretting over though. If someone sees that Irishness for themselves in the lyric they will see that.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Dec 18 - 05:23 AM

I like it.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Dec 18 - 09:36 AM

Aw, it's on TV at this very moment! Feel a bit teary, it's quite a tragic song really, their lives are so pitiful.
The word 'faggot' wasn't bleeped out thank goodness.

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 05:55 AM

I `ad that Vernon `awksworth-`arming in my cab the other day. `e`s the top sensor for the Auntie BBC.`e was scribbling away like tomorrow wasn`t coming.
I said, "Morning Vernie. You doing your Christmas list or something?"
`e said, "No Jim. We going to be playing that "Fairytale of New York" and we`ve got to be sure not to upset anybody".
I said, "Go on then. What `ave you got in mind?"
`e said, "`ere, let me read from this sheet for you. Whaddya think?"

"Title:- Fairytale". Derogatory term. Use `omosexualstory.
Verse 1:- Babe. remove contents re infants. Peedo interest.
          Old man. Use old person. More inclusive.
Verse 2:- "Got on" suggests possible copulation. Use bet.
          More reference to babies. Use sweetheart.
          Too much "coming". Sexual connotations. Use arriving.
Verse 3:- Wind . Suggest flatulence. Use cold, moving air.
          Broadway. Derogatory ref. to women. Use Personway.
Verse 4:- Remove Queen. Derogatory `omosexual connotation.
          Sinatra swinging. Family might object to referring to his
          private parts.
          Kissed. Definitely out. Could lead to future accusations
          of sexual assault. "Me Too" might `ave something to say.
Verse 5:- Boys of the Choir. The Pope might object in view of the
          latest revelations.
Verse 6:- Bum. remove ref. to sensitive physical areas.
          Slut on a junk. This may not go down well with Chinese
          listeners. Suggests waterborne prostitution.
          Remove faggot. Derogatory `omosexual term and it is not nice
          calling somebody a bundle of small branches, tied around
          the middle and intended for the fire.
          Arse. See line above re physical parts.
Verse 7:- `es referring to infants again. Delete it."
I said, "Blimey! It`ll never rhyme with all those changes".
`e said, "That don`t matter. It keeps the "snowflakes `appy!!"

Whaddam I Like??

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 26 Dec 18 - 10:56 AM

:0)...Jim you should be on the telly......you're not Jim Davidson by any chance?

Subject: RE: Fairytale of New York censored by Beeb!
From: lefthanded guitar
Date: 28 Dec 18 - 06:00 PM

This thread promoted me to (re) listen to this song, which I always liked and still do. The use of the term faggot doesn't offend me b/c it is used in context ( as several posters here have already stated) as the quote of a character in the song. It is a fiercely beautiful and savage tale of the tangle of dashed hopes of love and life.   It is cinema in a song.

Randy Newman has faced similar criticisms in writing songs in the voice of dysfunctional, unlikeable and/or despicable characters - the redneck, the slave trader in Sail Away, even the song Short People , which some listeners literally took as a diatribe against short people ( instead of a ironic observation of bigotry in general) Some folks just don't 'get it' - thankfully Ray Charles did get it and recorded the definitive version of Sail Away.

These type of songs are more like short stories or plays, set to music , and should be regarded as such imho.

That said, time has give us a different perspective on hurling about bigoted insults.
If I were gay. I think I might take offense at hearing this term in a song, just as we are no longer as tolerant of calling people names like the n- word, giudo, kike, ragheads, red dots. etc. - especially if the words are hatefully used by a bigot. Anyone who wants to sing this song as pc, can easily substitute a word like ' maggot' - though I wouldn't change it myself.

I also wonder of some of the objection to the song stems from the fact that it can be perceived as a rejection of the spirit of Christmas. Well, in that case, they can take an ear to Jackson Browne's The Rebel Jesus. Which also examines the underside of this season of joy. I listen to both Fairytale and Rebel; and find them powerful and moving songs of the season- even as much as I look forward to the annual performances of O Holy Night, or The Christmas song by Darlene Love.

At any rate, glad the song was reinstated to the playlist. For whatever reason.