Unusual Penny Whistle

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 May 11 - 06:05 PM

A few years ago the short lived Brisbane 'Celtic Club' ran whistle classes. Some of the players drilled their own back hole exactly the same as on this whistle, on a standard D Generation.

...

The Celtic Club guys - if they got the placing right after the first few tries, placed it dead between the top 2 holes.

So, NOT exactly the same. That "Celtic Club" configuration is what Turkish whistles have (same layout as on the mey, duduk or kaval).
Gives you a C natural, sort of.

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 May 11 - 10:28 PM

but certainly doesn't play like a whistle ...

Is it perhaps a whistle with a "displaced scale."

The majority of orchestral finger-hole instruments shift the scale so that the "six fingers down" fingering plays the second note of the (major) scale, rather than the tonic.

On the more complex instruments, a key is commonly added, closed with the pinky finger for the tonic.

A number of instruments have been created so that "academics" could use the same (or more similar) fingerings as for their classical instruments on a "damaged trad instrument" in order to play with those using the real things.

Since the bottom tonic is little used, the key can be omitted, but then one runs out of holes and there's no "top tonic" to fill the gap before you "blow up" to the second register.

A second hole very close to the regular top hole, and nearly the same size, might give the added semitone interval for the last step of the first register scale. The intervals would, obviously, sound "off" if one assumes it's a normal p'whistle.

If the normal "pennywhistlish" tonic (six fingers down) is a C#, the full tone down (which might be the intended tonic?) would be a B. The notes played starting at the bottom would perhaps be:

C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A#, and with the "extra hole open" B (the tonic for the scale).

It's doubtful that any one wanted an instrument in the "key of B" but the plastic mouthpiece generally is easily adjusted to change the tuning, so moving the mouthpiece out a bit, so that the "six fingers down" note was a C, would permit a Bb scale, with the bottom Bb missing (if this theory is applicable), which stil seems a little unlikely, but moving it in to bring the all-closed note to D would give you a "C" whistle that's just lacking the bottom C.

I can't say that I've seen a commercially produced instrument of this kind, but exactly this "system" was demonstrated by a former acquaintance some years back on a home-made whistle he'd built (with very little musical knowledge to work with), and he may have copied something he'd seen(?).

The question is whether there is a difference in pitch with all holes open, vs what you get with one hole (either of the two top holes) closed, vs both top holes closed.

Then the next question would be whether playing up the scale opening one hole at a time may give you a scale but with a different starting point than is most common for p'whistles. If you start on the second note of a C scale and just play whatever notes happen next, you'd be playing a D-dim(?) scale - perfectly legal but rather strange sounding if it's not what you're expecting.

John

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: GUEST
Date: 12 May 11 - 06:49 PM

I have a Viceroy C whistle, found at a garage sale, with a very sweet sound, but it is a penny whistle. There is no thumb hole in the back of the whistle on mine. Yours sounds almost like a recorder - do you like the sound you're able to get out of it? It could give you the flexibility of a whistle with the range of notes of a recorder with its ability to do # and flats.

Colleen

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 06:16 AM

Tipparary WHistle - um about 1955/6... bugger me mate, I was only single digits old.... :-) and it died by th3 tiem I reached double digits - mum disposed of the remains... Bob who used to play with Stan Arthur of The Wayfarers showed me one in his collection: unfortunately it had been placed in hot water to 'adjust it', and reacted badly and was now unplayable.

The Celtic Club guys - if they got the placing right after the first few tries, placed it dead between the top 2 holes. I can't at the moment remember what they used it for, I don't have a whistle handy, but they used it to not crossfinger - was it the C natural???

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 06:06 AM

Even without the thumbhole, it doesn't play like a normal whistle at all; I've tried to work out the fingering but nothing seems to work.

If anyone can find a use for it, it's free to a good home! PM me to arrange delivery...

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:37 AM

Foolestroupe, what did the players you knew *do* with that extra hole? I have seen extra holes drilled to get a G# but never anything like this.

Did the "Tipperary Whistle" come with instructions? If so, what did they say to do with it?

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:27 AM

curiouser and curiouser...

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:08 AM

More info here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flageolet

also here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whistle

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:01 AM

"This thing doesn't even make sense as an instrument either flageolet or whistle players could use."

In the 1950s I was given a 'Tippary Whistle' - I have seen another a few years ago. It was a tapering plastic whistle with exactly the same holes as this.

A few years ago the short lived Brisbane 'Celtic Club' ran whistle classes. Some of the players drilled their own back hole exactly the same as on this whistle, on a standard D Generation.

It's only unknown among those who do not know it.... no matter what sort of self acclaimed expert they are :-)

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:18 AM

The original flageolet had four fingerholes and two thumbholes. No flageolet had a thumbhole opposite a fingerhole - every hole controlled a different pitch.

This thing doesn't even make sense as an instrument either flageolet or whistle players could use. The one thing I can think it might offer is slightly quicker first-hole ornamentation (since you have a choice of digits to do it with), but that would be an obscure feature for the period.

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:49 AM

BB,

Thanks, I bow to your erudition. 8-)

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:02 PM

G'day Mr Happy,

I think the 'thumb hole' is also commonly found on (... old, traditional ...) flageolets. I know that it turned up on early tin whistles ... as I have a couple of small tin whistles that really live up to that name ... being entirely made of tin(-plated iron sheet!

They have been made by folding together the edges of two separate tin-plate stampings, forming:
the 'upper half', with the 6 finger holes and the shaped labium / wind-cutter / whistle edge - and
the lower half, the other side of the 'tube' ... with the bottom of the windway and the right-angle turn defining the length of the open whistle ... and a single 'thumb-hole' roughly opposite the top finger-hole.

They aren't great whistles ... and are a trifle high of high 'G' ('G' in "old high pitch" ... ?) but they do illustrate a late 19th century predilection for including thumbholes. (And that doesn't come from the design ideas of recorders, as they were not revived by Dolmetsch, as a school instrument, until a bit later on!)

Regards,

Bob

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 02:10 AM

Looks like a recorder/whistle hynrid?

Subject: RE: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Nerd
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:37 PM

You can see a thread about them on a whistle forum, here.

Not much definitive info, though...

Subject: Unusual Penny Whistle
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Dec 07 - 05:01 PM

Picked up an odd whistle in a flee market a few months back; just turned up in the kitchen drawer. Ugly metallic blue body sounding a fundamental C# - red plastic mouthpiece marked 'Viceroy - Made In England' - six finger holes plus thumb hole (opposite top finger hole; same position, same size).

Nice tone, but certainly doesn't play like a whistle. Any ideas?