Tech: Spruce or Cedar?

Subject: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:50 PM

I tried this thread with a different title earlier, and didn't get any takers. I thought I'd try it this way.

                               Thanks,

I'm looking at two Takamine guitars that can be had on a number of commercial internet sites. They're both acustic/electric, and they're both nylon classical. One is an EC132SC and the other is an EC132C.
                  They are both the same price. The only difference I can see between them is one has a "Spruc" top and the other has a "Cedar" top. Does anybody have a preference, one over the other?

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:55 PM

Both are good,but guitars can vary so much the best thing is to be able to try them,I think I would go for the spruce.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

I think spruce might resonate better. Don't know for sure.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Bert
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

Spruce and cedar have very close acoustical properties. The main difference is that cedar splits along the grain much easier. That's why it is used for shingles. Because of this I would go with the spruce unless a particular cedar guitar sounded a lot better.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:16 PM

I, on the other hand, like the sound of Cedar with Rosewood - but in general it depends on the wood you're matching it with. Cedar is certainly a softer wood - Spruce will wear better if you're not being too careful with the instrument. But I think Cedar has a more interesting tone quality.

Dan

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:21 PM

And, if colour matters spruce is 'white' and cedar is 'red'

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

if it's oak with you it's pine with me

ok, I'll leave

Barry

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 07:32 PM

Way back in '99 we ran what became a fine thread on tonewoods and its worth reading for all the different folks who were contributing back then. Its generally known as The Brazilian Rosewood Thread. There is just a ton of great info......I guess we were all in the mood right then...LOL. Rick Fielding is sadly gone now but I'm always happy to read his old posts which were often the very best on any given thread.

Here's one post I made regarding the spruces and cedars:

Subject: RE: Brazilian vs. Indian Rosewood
From: catspaw49 - PM
Date: 07 Nov 99 - 08:10 PM

Well, to answer about softwoods, used as most soundboards...and to try to be brief, not easy if you're me......here's some basic stuff and a little more.
Metchosin, your "theories" actually are true to some degree and the way the wood is cut is very important to the whole thing, especially when you're talking rarer softwoods like German Spruce. Quite frankly, there is damn little German Spruce at all and its rarely used. Interestingly, we (US) used to send a lot of Engleman overseas and it was RESOLD to us as German....proving Barnum was right. 'Course Bill D. will happily tell you that there is no such thing as "Bolivian Rosewood"...and he's right! But it LOOKS similar and the name is so much nicer!!!! In any case, German, Engleman, and Sitka are the preferred spruces and German is used only occasionally nowadays as the cost is quite prohibitive. Also, since much of it comes from smaller diameter trees runout becomes a problem and very little of it is available for master grade sale. And what's the point of buying INFERIOR German, when Engleman is available. Both are very white and show very little distinct graining from the growth rings. Both are very silky/shiny/polished looking even without finish of any kind. Sitka is stronger than the others and is one of the highest strength woods available....that's strength to weight ratio...and has really nice "give" or elastic qualities and is actually better suited to steel string construction than the others. I also prefer it for Dulcimers (Hammered) if I want to use Spruce, because the instruments tend to retain their tuning better (Strengh to Weight and elasticity is hard to beat). Sitka does not have that same pure whiteness and the graining is far more pronounced. The colors range from off white to a pink-yellow-tan kinda' thing, but I've never believed that had anything to do with the quality, just the aesthetics. Sitka is also without peer for soundboard bracing and tonebars, again owing to the strength to weight ratio. Frankly, once again, in the blindfold test, I'm willing to bet that very few could pick out the spruce being used. But folks, the market is often consumer driven and Engleman is in. I find Sitka to be more attractive myself, but then again, I'm a congenital idiot what got no taste at all!!!

Cedar is used on a lot of Classicals and I like it (as do others) for Hammered Dulcimers. It takes a different amount and style of bracing as it is not as strong as spruce, but what it does have is an unbelievable stability in a variety of humidities and also, for some reason, sounds better right away as opposed to spruce where age does play a factor. Very pretty too. Redwood is also kinda' neat in that its got that great dimensionable stability like cedar, and if you play HD or other zither things, you know how much fun there is in the constant retuning don'tcha'? Redwood and Cedar have excellent "taptones" and work really well on guitars as well. And BTW, Redwood and Cedar are both very resistant to rot and decay (which would make the unfinished fiddles last without finish....although a thin finish might actually enhance the sound...I'd like to know about that).

Cypress is also being used some but it comes under the "too early to tell" heading. And don't forget that even in guitars, mahogany has been used with excellent results by even the folks at Martin.

Sorry...getting carried away here. Just some random thoughts from your local village doofus.

Spaw
*************************************************************************************************

Like I said, I'd read the whole thread. There are some good links in it as well.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 08:09 PM

One might try listening to them both...

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 08:25 PM

I thought you were asking about Christmas trees. :)

If you get the cedar, it will droop and hold no ornaments. And if you get the spruce, don't back into it!

Now back to the music. (Interesting thread. I would have thought cedar split too easily to use in an instrument.)

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: GUEST,van lingle
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 08:53 PM

Regarding the durabilty of Cedar I've had a cedar-topped Lowden for 20 years now and played it heavily at gigs and sessions for about 15 of 'em and structurally she's perfect. There is still about the same ample amount of saddle poking up from the bridge that there was when it had it's first and only setup long ago but it does look like a woodpecker's had a go at her because they do ding easier than spruce tops.
I have heard it said that cedar-topped instruments start to fade abit after awhile. Don't know how true that is.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: freightdawg
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:23 PM

From the tone angle, cedar will have a "warmer" or "softer" tone. Many classicals are made from cedar for this reason. You would probably need to have a good player play each in front of you from about 5-6 feet away so you could see if you could tell any difference. How good are your ears?

FD

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:27 PM

Great information. Very interesting.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:39 PM

I think Rick on that same thread had the most definitive post on the idea of LISTENING and how what you see and what you hear are often at odds. If you didn't read the Brazilian Rosewood Thread, here's our late friend's well told story.

Subject: RE: Brazilian vs. Indian Rosewood
From: Rick Fielding - PM
Date: 05 Nov 99 - 10:38 PM

I've mentioned this before but it may be appropriate here. A number of years ago I participated in an experiment held in a New York guitar maker's shop. Twenty guitars were played (by one person) while about 10 of us listened with blindfolds on. We could (and did) ask the player to go back several times to guitar #2 (or 4, or 18 etc.) and then we rated them for tone, volume, presence etc.
The ones who were asked to be on the panel had to be able to differentiate between two notes played one right after the other that were a scant hair apart in pitch. The store owner wanted to make sure that his guinea pigs had really good ears.
Anyway, the winner..to our horror..was a medium priced Yamaha with a solid top and rosewood VENEER sides and back. The finest Brazilian rosewood D-28 (an old one too) came in something like 11th! From what I remember, we pretty much hated a couple of Guilds and Gibson Hummingbirds (or Doves) I do remember that a Catseye (Japanese hand made) rated highly as did a Franklin. There may have been a Larrivee as well but I'm not sure. There were about six vintage Martins and a couple of new ones, and they were rated all through from almost the top to almost the bottom. For what it's worth, I picked the Yamaha first, and the Brazillian 4th or 5th.

The funny thing about this is that I found out a few days later that the owner did exactly the same test with different people but with NO blindfolds! Naturally it was win place and show for the old Martins..followed closely by the Gibsons. Trailing badly were the Japanese guitars!
I guess it shows that when you see "Brazilian" you probably "think" Brazilian.
Oh the reason the owner did this was cause he was introducing a newer inexpensive line of guitars in his store, and he felt the proof was in the pudding. They were Yamahas..of course.
Me, I love the "look" of the word "Martin"..still a sentimentalist after all these years.

Rick

**************************************************************************************************

Take a friend and give it a blind test!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 02:39 AM

If these guitars are brand new, the general consensus of opinion is that the cedar top will initially sound warmer but the spruce will improve more over time.

eric

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: redsnapper
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:37 AM

Cedar is slightly softer and less stiff than spruce and this can result in subtle tonal differences as mentioned by several people. It is only one of a number of important factors, however, and body wood (e.g. rosewood, mahogany, maple or other), bracing pattern, general build quality and tolerances, nut and saddle materials, type and gauge of strings, etc. will all contribute as well. Cedar does change a little with ageing but not so much as spruce. Swiss pine is another fine tone wood, again with subtly different properties.

There is no "better"... it will really depend on the sound that you like. I have owned instruments with spruce (Englemann and Sitka), Swiss pine and cedar tops and most have been fine in their own ways. Currently, my two main guitars (electro-classical and "000"-sized steel string) are cedar topped and all of my mandolin family instruments are spruce-topped.

For these reasons, as others have said also, it is always better, where possible, to really try the instrument out before buying.

RS
(ex-instrument repairman)

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:53 AM

My spruce tops started out a bit stiff & improved with age. No significant change in the voice though, just better quality. Some major splitting with the tenor guitar but playing community halls when it's 40 below will do that.
The cedar top was almost unusable to start with due to some strange overtones etc. but sounds lovely now. No splitting but it hasn't experienced the same climate changes. Still not the greatest for strumming but lovely for finger picking. Woody, louder & mellow.
For my money, spruce is the safest. It will eventually sound better than new. With cedar your just not sure how it's going to turn out.
I thought I responded to your last thread.
Now does someone want to tell Sorcha about yellow cedar?

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Grab
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:27 AM

Spruce has more attack to it, cedar is warmer and smoother.

When I got my decent classical guitar, I ended up with a cedar top - spruce was OK, but it seemed too harsh for the type of pieces I like playing. And with my octave mandolin, the cedar top seemed to tame the high-end harshness that mandolins can be prone to. If you want a harder edge to your sound, spruce will do that.

But the only real way forward is for you to play them and listen to them, so you can tell which one suits *you*. It's not us that's going to be playing it! ;-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:53 AM

The answers all seem very sensual and subjective. I don't know at all - certainly not about classical guitars.

I saw Ken Nicol (Steeleye Span's guitarist) give a seminar some years ago at Fylde folk festival. he said that cedar was his favourite because the closer grain gave it a 'punchier' tone.

I was so impressed with KN that I got myself a cedar topped guitar, however it availeth nothing, and I started getting compliments for the mellow tones that I got from the new guitar.

i should have thought though with a nylon strung guitar - the real choice is whether to get one of those that the flamenco players use - very thin cypress wood that they use to such advantage for that 'explosion' of sound. when then do that roll of the fingernails called a rasguedo.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 08:40 AM

the trouble is that the OP,is buying them over the net unheard.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: GUEST,DonMeixner
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:07 AM

Each piece of wood is different from one side of the saw blade to the other. One top will sing the next will thud.

Structure wise spruce is the strongest wood there is when compared by weight to others. Thats why 1/4 sawn spruce tops can usually be thinner than other tonewoods. Of course there are variables such as grain structure, knots, inherent stress, ....

Don

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:23 PM

I saw that first effort at starting this thread a day or two ago, and looked forward to reading the responses. (I have no difinitive knowledge myself that I could have contributed.)

It's very interesting that no one responded to that initial effort, but that a second try with a different title elicited so many responses.

The fact that an internet/mail-order purchase precludes playing and hearing the individual guitars is a nasty extra complication. One particular spruce-top might very well be clearly superior to a particular cedar-top, but comparison of another pair of individual intruments might just as clearly indicate the cedar as the clear winner.

Buying sight-unseen, it would seem to be a choice between an instrument that might sound a little better now, but is less likely to improve (the cedar) versus one whose tone is more likely to continually improve over time. What's more important: now or later?

Spruce has been more commonly used, over a longer period of time, for steel-string acoustic tops. Cedar is becoming more and more common and popular as time goes on. Why? Maybe the best spruce has all been harvested and used up, perhaps?

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Jim Lad
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:44 PM

"Why? Maybe the best spruce has all been harvested and used up, perhaps?"
That would be my guess.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Lowden Jameswright
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:17 PM

I have an Indian Rosewood backed Spruce topped Norman ST68, and a Walnut backed Cedar topped Lowden, both 20 years old. The Lowden sounds brilliant with new strings, but the Norman still sounds good with old strings. Lowden is badly dinked - very easy to mark. Norman looks pretty battered too - but that's because it's my gigging guitar and gets 10 times as many knocks.

Interesting to read about the blindfold testing in Rick Fielding's post, and the Martin D28 coming in around 11th - I did the same thing when I went to buy a Martin D28 in 1987; came away with a Norman and £500 bonus left in my wallet.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:45 PM

Jameswright - I too found the blind test fascinating, and as a result of your post, I've looked into Norman. Their web-site doesn't give a lot of technical data, dimensions and nut width, or etc. Also, I noticed that it seems to be a subsidiary of Godin now. I don't know if that's recent or if it's been like that for a while.
             They certainly seem to be good looking instruments.

Subject: RE: Tech: Spruce or Cedar?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:32 PM

I've heard LJ's Norman, and it sounds great. Looking forward to hearing your Lowden, LJ!