BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: CapriUni
Date: 31 Dec 07 - 12:06 PM

John -- in some folk traditions, having a bird in your Christmas tree brings good luck for the next year... Most people (my mother among them) opt for bird-shaped ornaments, but if you've got the real thing, so much the better ... I guess.

(an old bird's nest, from the previous spring, is also considered good luck).

And just something that came into my head, the other day, regarding whether to actually call your celebration "Christmas," or not.

Some people I know (usually Neo-Pagan, or atheist) actually have the solstice eve as their primary day of celebration, and although they borrow Christmas traditions (or Hanukka traditions) from their childhoods, many (if not most) also deliberately add new traditions specifically designed to focus attention on the astronmical event. In that case, I think it's simply a case of accuracy to call it something other than "Cbristmas," and not just political correctness...

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 09:32 PM

Another no-relevance Xmas tale-

My Father was a depression kid & his Xmases were pretty grim; the result was that he attempted to overdo everything when he could finally afford it.

One odd feature was the Christmas tree; it had to be huge. We lived in an older house with a 13-foot ceiling, but he said the tree had to be bushy all the way to the top. No tapering! So we'd drag home a 16-footer and cut the top off. When I had a home of my own, I'd take that top bit back and decorate it, a perfectly good "extra" tree.

He also insisted that it be decorated "all the way around", even though you couldn't see more than a few inches into the tree, there were lights & stuff that were totally invisible.

Decorating the tree took many days. Once, after a week of setting up the monster tree and decorating it, we all stood around admiring it, when...

...a large black crow suddenly flew out of the tree!

We chased it around the house, and eventually shooed it out a door.

This mystery has haunted me ever since. Had it hidden in there all week? While we decorated? If not, how did it get in? Down a chimney is the most plausible explanation, I guess. But... ...ah well...

Happy New Year, All.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

I like tradition and I like holidays -- why not celebrate them all? So I do!

I'm glad I'm not an atheist -- but don't try to nail me down on my spiritual beliefs. i don't have a god/dess problem -- I have a problem with organized religion. ALL of 'em!

Linn, former Lutheran (Missouri Synod, geez, talk about politics!) Sunday school teacher and choir member

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: autolycus
Date: 30 Dec 07 - 10:11 AM

John, you haven't tasted my Mum's gefilte fish. 'Good' doesn't begin to cover it.

HNY

Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 09:37 PM

I didn't say "good"---I said, "NICE!" ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Art, ain't no such thing as a good piece of gefilte fish' If there were, it wouldn't need to be served with nose-numbing, tear-causing horse radish. I feel pretty much--no, exactly--the same about Dim Sum.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 02:38 PM

With a nice piece o' gefilte fish!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: autolycus
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 04:40 AM

Don't most people in the West answer the question by going to the post-Christmas sales to spend their credit cards on not-actual bargains propagated as real bargains?


Ivor

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 05:12 PM

It's a miserable time of year if one can't fly first class to Dubai, but a few of the more companionable family members and a good dinner help.
This year we voted against kitchen slavery and took in the buffet at our 4-star Hyatt-Regency- and we will do it again.
A fine representation of seafoods- salmon several ways, suchi, oysters on the halfshell, mussels, large prawns, crab, etc. in two area, fine beef, turkey and bison at another, and excellent auxilliary choices- vegetables roasted to perfection, prepared salads or your selections, excellent desserts (the tiramisu and English trifle should get special mention, and they spiced the pumpkin properly), and other choices too numerous to mention.
The staff provided wine service, removed empty plates to provide room for the next selected choices, and offered a fine selection of ports as well as dessert liquors and coffees at the conclusion.

A much more relaxing way to spend 'Christmas' than at home. The day could have been extended with a visit to their Spa- perhaps next time.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 26 Dec 07 - 03:33 PM

I'm a secular humanist and my wife is Wiccan and we callit Christmas. I agree with what a previous poster said about the days of the week being named for pagan deities. You don't have to worship Thor to call the 5th day Thursday. Also, you don't suppose all the revellers at Mardi Gras are going to Mass in the morning and rubbing ashes on there forehead, do you?
    I do understand some people not wanting to be wished a Merry Christmas. I used to run a phone center in Central Ohio where the main ethnic group was first and second generation Appalachians. I had a really hard time trying to get some of them to not wish strangers a Merry Christmas on the phone. "Merry Christmas, Mrs. Rosenberg" might grate on my ears, but they didn't seem to know better. (Once when I was explaining that we would suspend calling in certain areas during Yom Kippur because of a large Jewish population, I had a young lady ask me in all seriousness, "What are Jewish people?".) I finally convinced them to say "Have a nice holiday" because everyone gets a holiday even if it's just a legal one from work.
    We cook huge feasts for family. Christmas dinner is ALWAYS roast beef and Yorkshire pudding. (Turkey is for Thanksgiving and ham is for sandwiches, Philistines!) This year with French Onion soup using chicken broth instead of the traditional beef broth, super smashed potatoes, glazed carrots, biscuits, fruitcake, and pecan caramel pumpkin pie. This is after cooking a large amount on Christmas Eve when we hosted my wife's family's Christmas party. We'll be eating leftovers till New Years. Then we'll host another party on New Years Eve.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 09:35 PM

John, gives a whole new meaning to Christmas cookies. (Sorry about that).

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 07:36 PM

ANd it requires no special chemicals or mythical entities, either.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Amos
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 07:25 PM

Clebrate!
Celebrate!
Celebrate!
No need to wait!!
Thor off weight!!
Palpitate!!
Excitate!!
Resonate!!
And celebrate, celebrate, celebrate!!!

AFter all -- there are only two things to do with your time. One is lash the beast, and the other is celebrate victory!!!


A

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 07:17 PM

The answer: Easilly. Lights are always good. Be merry and full of good cheer no matter
what you believe or don't.

Bring people into your life and celebrate, celebrate, celebrate.

(Like the old joke, the monk says to his fellows, "Hey guys, we got it all wrong in the
translation. The word is "celebrate".

Frank Hamlton

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Dec 07 - 01:43 AM

Thousands of people have put lights on their houses in the winter, all over the place, and I don't assume they're all Christian-- maybe they're onto a good approach, and good for them!

Happy WhateverYouWantToCallIt, folks.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: CapriUni
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 01:31 PM

MaineDog -- no whoops of joy? No banging pots and pans loudly to banish dark spirits, nothing but a burning up of your flaws? tsk.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:51 PM

"assign each of our faults to a little piece of it, and throw the pieces into the fire."

*tsk*...I'd need at LEAST a couple of large grapefruit!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: MaineDog
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 12:38 PM

A few days ago I went to a solstice party given by one of my friends. We were promised a secret solstice ritual at the appropriate time. The hostess handed out oranges and ordered us to peel them. Then we were commanded to break up the peel, assign each of our faults to a little piece of it, and throw the pieces into the fire.
Somehow, that wasn't particularly exciting, although the orange was good.
After that about half the guests began to sing old-fashioned religious Christmas carols without any help from me. A good time was had by all.
Then I went to a contradance.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 05:55 AM

love trumps

the one you love doing a prolonged fart. It vibrates against you in bed, and you think, that's my girl......

too much detail perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 24 Dec 07 - 03:52 AM

Sorry John, but what precisely are these "love trumps"?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:21 PM

We heathens have the logic, but them Christians got lotsa good songs!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Joe_F
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 08:58 PM

I read things that allow me to meditate on Christianity with less than usual hostility:

Matthew 1-2; Luke 2 (c. 100)
Charles Dickens, "A Christmas Carol" (1843)
Rudyard Kipling, "Christmas in India", "Eddi's Service", in _Verse:
Definitive Edition_, pp. 53-55, 512-513 (1886, 1910)
Edna St. Vincent Millay, "The Ballad of the Harp-Weaver", in
_Collected Poems_, pp. 177-184 (1922)
Jean Ritchie, "Brightest and Best...The Ritchies Take Christmas", in
_Singing Family of the Cumberlands_, Chapter 10, pp. 146-178 (1930)
Ogden Nash, "I Remember Yule" (1939)
W. H. Auden, "For the Time Being", in _Collected Poems_, pp. 269-308
(1941)
George Orwell, "As I Please", in _The Collected Essays, Journalism and
Letters_, Vol. 4, pp. 256-259 (1946)
James Agee, "Lines Suggested by a Tennessee Song", in _The Collected
Poems_, pp. 71-75 (1949)
John Betjeman, "Christmas", in _Collected Poems_, pp. 153-154 (1954)
David McReynolds, "The Bowery: A Ghetto without a Constituency", in
_We Have Been Invaded by the 21st Century_, pp. 38-43 (1968)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:39 PM

Thanks EmmaB, and I also thought it worth repeating something from the endless No God thread... ...hey, it's almost Xmas Eve....

Two of my best friends are VERY religious (one RC, another evangelist) and we tease each other but always remain friends.

Love trumps ideology any day.

(Hey didn't I just coin a nice Xmas phrase?)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:43 PM

I bet that was a toss-up between threads john :)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:39 PM

A little tale apropos of nothing:
When I was young, I noticed that everything we did on Christmas became part of a tradition; if we did something one year, we had to do it every year forever after. Playing table shuffleboard on Xmas Eve or reassembling the old toy train....
Naturally Christmas became ever more complex as we tried to fit in all the traditions.

One year my (then about 6-yr old) sister ran downstairs to look at her presents, and the excitment overwhelmed her. She stared for a second, then ran to the kitchen sink and vomited violently!

My father watched grimly. "Oh God, now we have to add this as well!"

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Alice
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:16 PM

I'm with Wolfgang on enjoying the traditions.
Even though I am not religious, I like the music, the Christmas trees
(although I don't put one up any more) and the festiveness of the season that brightens the cold, dark days.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:00 PM

And again..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

I'll try that link again:

a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:56 PM

For the history & function of Swaddling clothes see : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swaddling

I'd suggest any resemblance to Mummy wrappings is at best coincidental. Love the painting though; thanks for the link.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: 282RA
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

The solar messiah in the form of the Christ child showing its Egyptian roots in this 1644 painting. The mummy in Egypt was called the karast or fleshed. The karast became the Christ who, as an infant, lived in Egypt, according to the gospel legend. Mummies are only for the dead. So why is the newborn infant then wrapped as a mummy? Because the purpose of the mummy was to the preserve the flesh for resurrection. He is the mummy reborn. Yet how could that be unless he had lived before? Of course, he had. The solar allegory is ever repeating because the sun is reborn every year from its death which is simultaneous. As the old sun of the previous year dies, the new sun of the new year is born. The wrappings of the old mummy become the swaddling clothes of the reborn infant.

The risen mummy is Orion, the constellation, which the Egyptians attributed to Horus--the Egyptian Christ or karast. Orion was where the dead pharaohs were thought to go. As we watch Orion rise, it appears upright--the mummy risen. As it rises, the Southern Cross is seen descending. After goes Scorpio. To the Egyptians, the risen mummy, Orion, was rising up to vanquish the cross upon which he was slain and Scorpio who, in the legend stung Orion and killed him. The risen mummy arises to vanquish both. Hence the karast returns to vanquish his enemies and his slayers--the messiah, the Christ.

The astrological drama was played out in the heavens and the mummy needed to be preserved long enough to outlast the current zodiacal age in order to rise in the next one. That was why Egyptians originally prepared mummies to last 3000 years. It was actually 2160 years--the length of a zodiacal age. In the painting below, the karast arises in the new age of the fish. The age of Aries has ended and the age of Pisces has begun. And we see Aries in the painting witnessing the birth of his successor.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Georges_de_La_Tour_001.jpg

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 11:41 AM

tt, thanks for the link. What an inspiring song!

john - love the Yule song, too!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 11:02 AM

Just to add that the version of "Die Gedanken Sind Frei" by the Brazilian Girls is NOT my favourite version of the song,but I could not find Pete Seeger's version.For those who may not know the melody it's in the DT.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:46 AM

Sorry about my abysmal vocal here, but the words sum up my feelings....

Yule Song

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:22 AM

Just had a peek at the dancers.

Was there some sort've symbolism in the squire's little nap on the road near the start of the dance?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Emma B
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 09:03 AM

First link worked fine Tom and gave not only the music but some interesting background too.

Thanks

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 08:59 AM

Sorry! I goofed up the blue clicky!

                                     Try here

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: topical tom
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 08:52 AM

People may profess beliefs as they will but fortunately one great truth prevails in the words of this old German song:

http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/1185.html Here

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 04:32 AM

We celebrated Yule/Solstice with a lovely meal and we opened some presents. Harry loved the wrapping paper! We did a smal ritual where we raised a glass and toasted the death of the old god and the rebirth of the new god/ winter born child. Our holly wreath was on the alter and we ate ginger cake! We lit a candle (don't think the neighbours would be too happy about a big bonfire in the garden!) which we left lit to encourage the sun to return the next morning after the longest night.

On the 25th we will spend time with family, probably eat too much too. Sing songs, open presents and raise a glass to absent friends.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: bobad
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:14 PM

Here you can cut a perfect 5 point star:

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagstar.html

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Bee
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:05 PM

Here's a little seasonal fun thingy anyone can enjoy, especially your children - make your own snowflake.

http://snowflakes.lookandfeel.com/

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 09:58 PM

Wow, I actually agree with you on a lot of what you just posted, 282RA. I like that way of looking at the various Santa Clauses that show up this time of year, the shaman-role. Thanks for posting.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: 282RA
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 08:32 PM

I celebrate the winter solstice neither godlessly nor godfully. The various saviors said to be born on December 25th--Jesus, Krishna, Helios, Wittoba, Mithra, etc.--are all solar messiahs. Christ is called the light of the world for a good reason.

So the sun returns from the underworld where it was being assailed by demons (Osiris, Ptah, Inanna, etc.) and is reborn. This is an esential feature of our lives for we couldn't live without it. All life has had no choice but to evolve in sympathy with this seasonal rhythm.

So celebrating Christ's birth is celebrating the return of the solar messiah. And why shouldn't that be celebrated? As an atheist, I have no difficulty wishing someone a merry Christmas and I fully intend to have one myself. Do I worship the birth of some infant in Bethlehem 2000 years ago? No. The story was never meant to be taken literally. But if some people want to believe that, go right ahead. I could care less.

Same with Santa Claus. I wouldn't tell my kid to believe in a real Santa. I would make clear that it is a belief some people have but it is not so. But I would also teach my child what Santa Claus really is and how profound the meaning of the legend is. I wouldn't teach my child to ridicule the belief but to embrace Santa Claus with a different understand than what most kids are taught. But I would impress upon my child not to ridicule them about it just as he or she would not want those kids to ridicule him or her.

And if my kid wanted to sit on Santa's lap, that's fine. As long as he or she understands that this person is neither Santa Claus nor a crass faker. This person is instead assuming the shamanic role of becoming the god in order that the people may communicate to him their wants, needs, hopes and fears. Such is the purpose of all shamans and this role-playing has been a fixture in humankind since there have been humans on this earth. It's a way of coping.

My brother recently had an experience where an old friend had suffered a delusional breakdown brought on by years of extreme drinking, drug-taking and partying. At one point, the guy was in the hospital freaking. My brother was trying to calm him down but he was freaking seeing something that wasn't there. The guy's sister showed up and she and my brother tried to assure him that no one else was in the room. The sister is a very devout Christian. She laid her hands on her brother and began to pray. He seemed to calm down so my brother, who is not religious, laid his hands on his buddy and bowed his head. The guy immediately calmed down. He stopped freaking and just laid back and started to breathe easy. After that, he was a little more rational. Was god there watching? Of course not. But prayer has a power of a deeper communion than mere words. It is an emotional communion that gives a person inner strength as well as having a stress-relieving value to it. Again, this quality of prayer is as old as humankind. No religion has a lock on it and it belongs to no religion. It belongs to each of us.

I won't hesitate to pray for someone if it looks like that's what they need to cope at that moment. I won't pray for that person when I'm alone because I don't have that kind of belief in prayer. But if a person is in a bad way and needs reassurance that goes beyond words and intellect, I may resort to prayer because it provides that person with a deeper connection into the "sacred" and as such calms that person down and gives that person hope. It's the way humankind has always done it. Who is some stupid rationalist bastard to come along and pronounce it superstitious anymore than some retard fundie to pronounce it the work of a non-existent personal god?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 07:55 PM

If we're talking 'mid-winter', we're talking February. I observe mid-winter by celebrating my wedding anniversary (next is 40). If we're talking Hannukah/Christmas, we're talking end of autumn, early winter!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 06:53 PM

I think that Christmas is a fine pagan holiday. The yule log, and the carols which are beautiful say nothing about the reality of Christianity as it's applied today. It stems from earlier times and former pagan rituals involving holly bushes, decorated trees, bonfires in the snow etc.

It is an institutional holiday that could just as easilly be called Solstice or Midwinter.

As forced as the notion of the birthday of Christ is, manger scenes and creches seem
almost a parody of themselves when displayed with neon lights and artificial caracatures.
The Three Wise Men look more like The Three Stooges. And scholars of the bible know that December 25 was not the reputed birthday of Jesus but it was of Mithras, the sun god of Egypt who was the forerunner of the other guy.

The idea of "peace on earth and goodwill to men (and women) is worthy in itself of
celebration. If this is the real message than I'm for keeping it as it is.

I think Christmas is fine the way it is. It's not Hannukah or Kwanza so that's significant.

One could paraphrase Reverend Billy in saying: "Where would Jesus shop?"

To me, the holiday is not about "stuff". It's about spending happy times with close ones
whether family or friends. Singing the carols which are lovely bring people together in a
warm, loving way. The words never have to be taken in any literal way.

I love the trees, the warm cider, the pleasant conversation and friends, the lights festive in the neighborhood, the occasional meaningful gift (not just "stuff"), and the idea of being "Merry" really appeals to me. That's the idea, to circumvent the environmental depression of the darkest time of the year.

So Merry Christmas, Happy Solstice, Merry Midwinter, Happy Chanukkah, Kwanza, Boxing Day, and whatever holiday you come up with I'll be happy to celebrate it.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

*smile*...I like Wolfgang's attitude. Enjoy the happiness & the symbolism and the traditions, no matter what you think about 'truth'.
   Christmas is part of most of our cultural heritages, and appreciating the good parts of it can't hurt. If you wish to make the solstice the major emphasis, fine.

We go to an annual dinner where some are Christians, and some are not. We don't discuss the details or debate value systems.

(and yes, Wolfgang, a child should be a bit older before they decide what they REALLY believe or not. No doubt family can influence that, but it is important to understand 'why' one believes or disbelieves...or just simply doubts.)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: topical tom
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 12:49 PM

I don't. God and Jesus are an essential part of my Christmas.However, that doesn't stop me from celebrating with Atheists, Agnostics, and many other Christian sects whom I count as my friends.To all:Merry Christmas,
Happy Holidays, Happy Hannukah, however you celebrate and whatever. We are all brothers and sisters, after all.

                  PEACE AND LOVE

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:50 AM

My wife and I are atheists and our daughter thinks she is too (I think she should be somewhat older than 10 before proclaiming that).

On Christmas Eve, we shall go to church to see and hear our daughter playing and singing Joseph in a Christmas play during a religious service. Later we'll sit around a candle lit Christmas tree singing the old well known carols before looking at our presents. Then we'll play something together like cards or dice. Very late that night I'll listen to "Bells of Dublin" with the Chieftains. It'll be a Christmas very similar to the last few except that our daughter has played different roles before.

That'll be our godless atheist Happy Christmas and we'll feel good about it.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Alice
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:21 AM

I say WOO HOO!!! The days are getting longer!
... and feel happy about that.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Becca72
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:08 AM

Sins,
I didn't get anything that makes noise for Jonathan this year (last year's Darth Vader talking mask drove Father out rather early) so dad may stick around a while longer.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 11:03 AM

I sleep late and have dinner with friends - Becca's family. This year, it's home early because I have to go to work on Wednesday. This working for a living has really put a crimp in my life. LOL

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:38 AM

As a curmudgeon of long standing, I don't; no special meal, no presents, etc. My holiday greeting to those who elicit one is "Happy Bah Humbug!".

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:05 AM

The concept of "God" is in your world, not their world. I'm not trying to start an argument, just pointing out a possible discrepancy.

Same world. No discrepancy, just a disagreement about what sort of world it is. An amicable one I trust.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 09:58 AM

The solstice is the result of the planet's axis being slightly out of alignment with its orbit (and the spin has a bit of a wobble, too). However, it's unlikely we would have evolved without these eccentricities to stir the pot!

So here's bit of theology that has some appeal: We owe our existence to a bit of shoddy workmanship on the part of the Great Clockmaker! Definitely something worth celebrating!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 09:56 AM

Maine Dog......Your last paragraph.......The first sentnece is first person while the second is second person. If a "non-believer" celebrates a solstice it doesn't follow that he is praising a "creator." The concept of "God" is in your world, not their world.

I'm not trying to start an argument, just pointing out a possible discrepancy.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: MaineDog
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 09:33 AM

A few points:

Many Christians are non-church-goers because may churches have thrown God and Jesus completely out, and the other churches tend to be clannish and antisocial.

Biblical scholars have determined that Jesus was most likely born sometime in October, by looking at old Jewish temple service records. The early chruch moved Christmas to mid-winter to try to capitalize on the already existing solstice celebrations.

I believe that God created a world that is regular and well-enough behaved to permit solstices to happen (that is to say, He created the laws of mathematics ane physics). So if you are celebrating the solstice, you are indirectly praising the Creator as well.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: john f weldon
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 09:13 AM

We do pretty much the same as the godly.

When I greet a Christian, I say Cool Yule or Season's Greetings. For an Atheist, Jew or other non-Christian I say "Merry Christmas!". But that's just the kind of guy I'm.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 07:43 AM

We pretty much celebrate most of December, when I think about it. It's become a tradition amongst a small group of friends to get together for the second weekend of the month as a social - we used to all attend a "workshop" run by some author friends at a residential adult education college, but prices have continued to rise so we decided that as the main point of being there was to see each other (and not the subject matter under discussion) we'd host the weekend at our home for a select group instead. The following weekend there's a gathering in Oxford for a pot luck lunch and bran tub, and then we come on to Christmas itself. When it's family all the way. This year we're more separate than usual - I've got the older generation (my parents, Steve's dad) here for Christmas Day, then we head down to my sister's for tea. Meeting another sister on Boxing Day at my parents' place and then attempting to catch up with the missing relatives as soon as feasible. Then we're celebrating a friend's birthday in London on 29th, and hosting as many people as can come on New Year's Eve.
I don't think we'd have time to fit any gods into all of this! We have a Christmas tree crowned with a rather mad snowman, and lights outside the house, and a mistletoe wreath on the front door, and loads of cards, and I have no problem at all with using the word Christmas as a form of verbal shorthand for what we're up to.
Incidentally, I was working with a Muslim colleague this week and asked her if she was planning anything. "Oh, we don't really celebrate Christmas," she said, "We just invite everyone to the house to have a big meal and we give presents to all the children. And we decorate the house and have a tree ...but we don't really celebrate".   Sounds pretty much like our family events, although probably without the alcohol!

Anne

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 06:43 AM

A tightsituation eh?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:15 PM

I'm hoping to get something in a stocking. Maybe both hands...

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:08 PM

Opps, that didn't work! mmmm OK

Godlessly?, I'd either graze or take prey.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Bee
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:00 PM

It'll be remarkably like a Christmas celebration for me, what with the baking and Christmas tree and travelling to visit the family and having friends in and all. The Solstice certainly gives me a moment of gratitude - this dark time will not last forever - but the best celebration of the season for me will be New Year's Eve, which we always spend with our very dearest friends in Cape Breton. There will be feasting and drinking and laughing and singing, hordes of neighbours wandering in and out of the snow, visiting young folk home from university or the oil patch or Trawna, kids falling asleep in corners, dogs and cats underfoot... and the practically ancient pet chicken, feasting, rather horribly, on leftover turkey.

And I wish all of you the very best of the season, however and whyever you celebrate it.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:55 PM

The dance was wonderful, Spaw, wish I was there this time of year!

The Berea College thing made me cry. What a wonderful place. I'd love it if our Morgan wound up going there! His mother holds you in high esteem, so that ups the chances. Wouldn't it be wonderful if ALL educational institutions were able to emulate what they do there?

Sorry for the thread drift, folks.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:47 PM

Well I will be celebrating in my "devout atheist" way. With a dinner cooked by a dedicated if not too church-going christian lass. And then we will be off to as many ceilidhs as her cracked rib will allow. But then we worship at the alter of St Terpsichore every Sat given the chance. In short - communing with our tribe. A tribe based on genre rather than geography - as is the way these days.
Oh and going to watch "Once" at the local Town Hall/gov cinema.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: number 6
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:46 PM

How do I celebrate midwinter 'godlessly' .... by cranking the electric start on my snowblower, or chopping ice off of our walkway.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Well, if you're into the Country Dance thing then a great and well known place to go is the Berea College Country Dance School. I think there might be a few other YouTube vids as well. If you'd like an overview of the place where Ol' Spaw went to school then here's a look at Berea College.

Enjoy.........I did. Looking back these many years later, Berea was one of the foremost influences in my life.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: gnu
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:17 PM

The sacrifice ya make for family, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Amergin
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:03 PM

I try not to get arrested.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Becca72
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:56 PM

I consider myself agnostic but I celebrate christmas with my immediate family. We buy only for the kids, something that started 5 or so years ago because it just got out of hand when you're talking about having 30 people on your shopping list. The family gathers at my sister Debra's house and shares the traditional meal. My aunt will call from Arizona and we'll pass the phone around the house so everyone gets to wish them a merry christmas...sometimes my uncle and his wife show up for dessert...this year will be a little strange as this is the first christmas since my mother died and said aunt and uncle are her younger siblings, but I'm sure it will be fine. I'll hang around and help my sister and brother-in-law clean up and then go home to the cats with a little turkey treat for them.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:48 PM

Emma, thanks for the link to Grenoside Sword Dancers. I found a video of them at youtube. Wonderful to watch! Click Here

We still call it Christmas though none of us are religious. I also do something special for Solstice. Last night I stayed up until 130a to see the light come through the windows of Newgrange in Ireland, but the server couldn't handle the traffic, so all I saw was the archive of it. I may try again, tonight, but they say the weather doesn't look good for it. I was so excited last night, I couldn't get to sleep until 4a this morning!

We try not to put pressure on ANYONE to do anything for Christmas. Our kids know we will fix a good meal with the usual holiday stuff and that they are welcome to come over. This year, we will go to our son's house with his partner, her little boy and her mother. Then we'll come back to our house with my brother and our dau. and her partner and our grandson will probably come over. At least our grandson will if we can drag him away from whatever Santa birngs him in the morning.

My mother-in-law was so sweet and understanding about Christmas. She said she knew we "girls" married to her three sons, would want to be with our families, etc. so the big day for my Rog's family was New Year's when we would all go to her house. I loved her so much and have tried to emulate her when it comes to my kids. No pressure on them, just let them know we'd love to see them and we are flexible and will not try to manipulate with guilt.

It has been a big thing for me to learn to let go of the control over the holiday, but I have done for several years now and it feels so much better and *right*. It is simple, non-commercial, and a good time for reflection and celebration with music, sharing, storytelling, etc.

Thanks for sharing and great thread.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:21 PM

you could hang up a stocking, and hope you get something wicked

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:19 PM

I take the kids to church.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

I'm with Kevin; I get a little short of patience with those who make such a strenuous effort to avoid the word "Christmas" themselves, and very short of patience with those who challenge the right of others to use the word.

It seems more than a little ironic to me that really religious Christians get (understandably) upset at the very thorough secularization of our public celebration of Christmas, while at the same time opponents of Christianity get so militant about censoring the words used to describe public celebrations that everyone shares and enjoys.

In our modern industrialized culture, "Christmas" is a concept that has a lot more to do with buying and selling, and with eating and drinking, than with religious worship. We all recognize that there is a religious element of Christmas that is associated with a particular tradition that is indisputably part of our shared history. We also need to remember that serious religious observation of this feast day is, to say the least, less than universal.

The more educated among us, especially those not strongly affiliated with any church but also including plenty of observant but non-fundamentalist Christians, are fully aware of the historical fact that midwinter/solstice celebration of Yuletide predates Christianity, and has always included some element of recognizing a "New Year," even back before the current calender systems were ever invented.

But I digress (as usual)....

How do I celebrate midwinter godlessly? Let's see...

I don't go to work. (And now that the kids are grown up and gone, I can even sleep late, a luxury that used to be impossible on Christmas morning!)

I eat and drink to excess.

I exchange presents ~ Christmas presents ~ with friends and family.

I enjoy the company of others, including some folks who are more religious than I am, as well as a few who are even less religious ~ and I don't say or do anything to start an argument!

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: CapriUni
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:12 PM

Well, I've celebrated Yule* alone for the last ten years or so, because all my family live at a distance, and can't travel to where I am in midwinter because of threats of snow and ice.   I celebrate by singing to myself, meditating silently on new light coming into my life, and taking part in Mudcat's Secret Santa game. In recent years, I've made up a few Solstice-themed carols, but nothing has come to me this year.

Like Mrrzy, I celebrate the soltice because it happens, whether you believe in a deity or not (or even if you're human or not), and shortening daylight is depressing, and lengthening daylight is cheering, and is as good a reason to celebrate as any. I grew up celebrating Christmas, but I remember Mother telling me, when I was about 8 or 9 that all the common icons of the holiday originated as part of the solar festival. And when I was a teenager, for a few years, she would host a neighborhood-wide potluck party for the afternoon of the shortest day, and tried to lead everyone in a raucous cheer as the sun went down... Some joined her, some looked at her in bewilderment.

And yes, gift-giving and gift-receiving (and learning to do both graciously) is a big part of it. Such mutual exchange doesn't happen at birthdays, or if you just give gifts "whenever."

*(I call it that mostly because I like the sound of the word, and have read on several sources that it comes from the Anglo-Saxon "geol," meaning "coal" and links it to the fire-festival. But I also agree with McGrath that "Christmas" is as perfectly fine a name for December 25 as "Tuesday" -- many use that name without flinching, even though very few actually worship Tyr, any more...

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:56 PM

We will travel to friends and their somewhat unusual 'extended family' (which includes foreign visiors with no family) for Boxing Day bearing gifts and to help cook dinner for a dozen folks!

The Grenoside Sword Dancers will be performing a couple of miles away
'The dancers seek out friends to wish a merry Christmas to as they march loudly in their clogs down the road. As with many traditions it takes place outside a public house, in this case The Old Harrow.'

May you have warmth, light, peace and goodwill in your celebrations, thanks for sharing.

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:47 PM

And a happy Christmas to you.

Call it what you will, so long as you celebrate it. But, after all, millions of Protestants who don't go in for "Mass" have been getting along happily calling it "Christmas" for all these years. Why should people who don't go in for "Christ" feel it necessary to use a different term?

Subject: RE: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:44 PM

I love the concept of St. Stephen's day and Boxing Day as celebrated in Newfoundland and elsewhere. It extends Christmastide...and brings in the larger community. I don't do much regardless. Am I getting mumming mixed up with Boxing Day? I can't remember. About freaked out the first time I saw mummers at the door with lampshades on their heads..

I love to shop..I can't where I am now except for clam shovels and things like that..but I will be in Seattle this year and might get a chance to get to Sharper Image, Barnes and Noble etc...mg

Subject: BS: How do u celebrate midwinter godlessly?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

I can tell from the various threads that there are many people here that have no personal god(s). It also seems from various threads that most of us nonethetless celebrate at midwinter with friends and family, and may or may not call it Christmas or Hanukkah or whatever your family celebrated whether secularly or religiously... so I was wondering what you do, and how you do it.

We celebrate the solstice (because it actually happens, to the whole planet) as the beginning and end of the solar year (the earth's full orbit). My kids and I, and any close friends who can/want to, go out for dinner and drinks, and have toasts, and I sing a lot of solstic-y songs (my latest fave is Dance with the Dragon by Anne Lister {aka Tabster, here} on Waiting for the Hero which EVERYBODY SHOULD BUY RIGHT NOW BTW).
We do the big family (my Mom, her daughters and any boyfriends, their children and occasional boyfriends) celebration AT Christmas because that is when people have off. Some (like Mom, who's an atheist and a jew) insist on calling it Christmas, but most of us don't really call it anything. I call it Midwinter. It's at my eldest sister's house. We have Hungarian food Christmas Eve, and the next morning open presents and pretty much hang out in PJs and play with new toys all day. We have a big dinner that evening with ham and turkey and trimmings. Then on the day after Christmas aka Boxing Day or St. Stephen's day, my sister hosts the extended relatives (our uncles and aunts and cousins and even more distant kin) and all the close family friends come for a many-hours-long buffet of various courses, including more Hungarian food like korozott (imagine short umlauts on the first o's and a long one on the third), and then all the leftover turkey and ham and fixins and Hungarian food from the night before and it's yummy yummy yummy.
To me, what's important is the (a) element of a cycle turning, out with the old in with the new, stay up late and drink a lot with people you love and who love you. The other element is that of giving things to people. My kids were trained when small to read (or have read to them) the card, get the attention of the giver if present and announce it otherwise, and make sure the giver gets to see them open any presents. The thanks are immediate, and they understand that seeing the pleasure of being a good gift giver is a gift in itself. They are both good shoppers when we go shopping for presents, and really think about what people would like to receive (which is good, since I'm always more interested in what I would like to give!)... they are, of course, big time into GETTING presents, but that isn't the focus of the holiday.

I re-wrote a song for the occasion, it's somewhere in the Forum and never made it into the Trad. I'll find the link later.

Merry Midwinter, all! And to my fellow godless 'catters, please tell what you celebrate, and how, given that the religious holiday season doesn't apply to you... we could all probably use some ideas! Especially if children are involved...